Free Discussion June 2012

Please use this for Duggar sightings, speculation, or general discussion. Note that this is Duggar discussion not other families, TV shows, politics, religion, or personal stories. If the comment is more about you or some other issue than the actual Duggars, please rethink before sending. Thank you!

261 comments:

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Elvira said...

Thanks for the explanation on the altered photos. :)

Once again I have to say that telling stories of other people do something in no way justifies or makes what the Duggars do right or valuable. I can see many examples of people hamstringing their daughters where I live and could quote them. Does that mean it is something to follow and admire? Not in the least. It is an argument full of fallacies to say that something is OK, fine, or right because I've seen someone else do it.

Patrice said...

Agreed, Elvira. And sadly, a lot of these people probably do things just because they have seen the Duggars do it. Why anyone would try to emulate the Duggars is beyond me, but each to his own. On the Bates's website, there are always people saying things like: "Kelly, you are such an influence on me! I started wearing skirts and growing my hair long to be like you and the Duggars!" Um, ok. This is exactly how a cult gets started and expands to the most vulnerable members of society. Not a good thing.

tulip said...

I wasn't able to see the pics from the info posted by Nancy from "Anna Pregnant Again?" comments, I'll try my home computer...but it's all proof the Duggars have really become a total facade all for the network and ratings. And now with Josh participating in all things social media, he can brag daily as well as leave fuel for the fire just to keep everyone talking. Although I am one who participates, my intention is to keep trying to expose the reality that it is in fact all a facade (even though their followers are completely brainwashed at this point).

So much for the Duggars reasoning they're doing this as "a ministry" when it's become all about ego and cashflow. I say "become" because I really don't think it started out that way, at least not with the first couple specials, but probably after Jim Bob received the first check and all the perks that came with the filming of finishing the house (which probably still wouldn't be finished if TLC hadn't footed the bill and brought in the pros-they would still be taking advantage of Clark Wilson telling themselves he was "helping them out" which in Duggar-speak is getting stuff for free), they went full speed ahead for more and as much as they can get.

So many of the kids have had braces-guess Josh flew the coup before Jim Bob okayed adding orthodontia as a budget item...too bad, Josh really needs his teeth straightened out. Oh well, as Michelle said when Josh was getting married, once you leave and cleave, that's it, you're on your own buddy (baby laugh chuckle).

summer11 said...

The Picasa photos of the family are great I think. Joy Anna looks so grown up and the pictures of the four older girls are BEAUTIFUL. You can definitely tell that the backgrounds are photo-shopped in, though. Jordyn’s photo makes that very obvious. And about Anna’s finger—I think that’s a photo-shop error as well.

I’ve been wondering about this for awhile and don’t think I’ve seen it brought up elsewhere; if it has been, my apologies. I know the Duggar’s use the “Nike!” for when a girl/woman is dressed immodestly but my question is what do they do when they’re out in public and are hearing some of the popular songs these days? When they’re out bowling, shopping, or when they were running around after Santorum, surely they heard music that was on the radio and since that music is not Gothard-approved, how do they handle that? You can’t really prevent someone from hearing something..

Alberta Rose said...

To me it depends on your life choices. I grew up in a household with lots of yelling, hitting, and trash talk about Fundamentalist Christians. Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar talk about not yelling, I've never heard them say that violence against women is okay and they are Fundamentalist Christians. I look to Michelle Duggar as the woman to guide me for what's OK, fine or right, not my mother.

Elvira said...

Alberta Rose, I'm sorry that's how your mother was, but simply saying on TV that she doesn't yell make it true that Michelle never yells at her children. People who know the Duggars personally report that off TV Michelle has yelled at her children. I'm not saying that a good mother can't need to yell once in awhile. I've screeched get out of the street a couple of times myself.

It's wonderful to try to improve life over what our parents did and most of whether religious or secular try to do that. To try to model oneself after the TV created image on a reality show does bother me though. You do realize all the Gothardism, legalism, misinterpretation of scripture, and patriarchal attitudes the Duggars stand for in their personal lives and how they do not allow their children even as adults to live their own lives? That the Duggars have their adult offspring in subjection that they themselves did not endure?

Alberta Rose said...

It's wonderful to try to improve life over what our parents did and most of whether religious or secular try to do that. To try to model oneself after the TV created image on a reality show does bother me though. You do realize all the Gothardism, legalism, misinterpretation of scripture, and patriarchal attitudes the Duggars stand for in their personal lives and how they do not allow their children even as adults to live their own lives? That the Duggars have their adult offspring in subjection that they themselves did not endure?

I think the Duggars are allowing their children to live their own lives, within the parameters of the life path. For example, the Gothard expectation is for women to marry young. It seems like the Duggar expectation for their daughters is to marry as your heart leads you. I'm sure the TV viewing audience would love a Duggar/Bates combination, yet the older males and females have made it clear they are not interested in each other that way and the parents are respecting those decisions.

From what I've read about Gothard and seen of the Duggar's, I'd say on that life path, the are definitely on the "light" end of the scale, not hardcore, devout Gothard followers.

Michelle Duggar is not on my hero list; however when I get hassled for not trying harder to have a second child, when someone raises an eyebrow when my son says "We don't have that in our house" or when someone questions why I stood by my husband when he made a clossal financial screw up, I think of how the Duggars live their life, the anger gets under control, and I can humbly say as Michelle does, "That's how God is guiding us".

Nancy said...

An expert who works as a photo editor commented on the pics I posted on the "Anna" thread and said that while celebs are going to be airbrushed to a certain extent (flyaway hair, slimmed down...see Rachael Ray for exhibit A). Like Ms. Ray, this person says that the portrait pics (including Josh's solo) were beyond brushed, but essentially "chopped." Josh's solo also bears that message that the picture has been altered. You can see he's been slimmed down considerably and had major chub taken out of his jawline, as well as a slimmed down face.

I'd let people take pics of me if they could do such a good job of making me look I'd lost weight beyond what the camera puts on (and with still photography, I can't tell the difference...I took a lot of pics of my niece and she's as skinny in the pics as she is in person). FWIW.

(poster formerly known as "ennvee")

londonbridges said...

I, too, grew up in a home where yelling, screaming and belittling was par for the course. However, I have tried to live my life differently than my mother did. Modelling Michelle Duggar is not the role model I follow, either. While she may never yell on camera, I find it difficult to believe she never yells at her blessings. I also raised my children, held them at night when they were afraid or ill, listened to them, guided them, bathed them, etc.

As posters have stated recently, the fact that JimBob and Michelle have their adult blessings in subjection is truly something they didn't endure. It makes me feel sick to my stomach when I think of this. It makes me angry when I think of the minds that these so-called 'Godly' parents are wasting. JMHO.

Seriously? said...

I'm really sorry to learn that anyone's childhood was sad and/or harsh.

But WHERE IS IT WRITTEN that life must be the phony, saccharine Duggarized life created for reality show format vs. yelling and screaming and all varieties of terrible behavior?

It's my opinion that NEITHER end of the spectrum is desirable or 'normal'.

Suffice it to say that my idea of a heaven would never be spending eternity with the Duggar clones. I believe god himself would be bored to tears in that circumstance.

tulip said...

It's even worse when Jim Bob & Michelle repeatedly mention, in such a whimsical manner, about those things they did as kids and teens-Michelle cheerleading and mowing the lawn in a swimsuit, Jim Bob & Michelle kissing behind the yogurt shop, etc. Oh, but looking back on that now, it's "baggage" (still after 20 some years).

Josh & Anna are overweight. Anna may have an excuse in that she could be pregnant, but they look like unhealthy people. It's clear why they needed to be photoshopped. Anna usually puts on a ton of makeup, but it makes her look even worse, and aged. Josh needs to stop having her pose next to food, and stop taking pics of his family in restaurants and at the dinner table.

Elvira said...

http://web.stagram.com/p/193737842423644162_8488471

If Anna isn't pregnant in that photo, then I may never have seen a pregnant woman.

I also hate having that bathroom with the door standing open all the time right behind the dining room table.

Nancy said...

Life is lived in shades of gray. The Duggars, by way of Gothard, truly believe that veering into any shade of gray = sin = hell. Reading the stories of people who got out of ATI/IBLP illustrate this theory and it's chilling.

Also noticed in the Picasa pics that Jinger got her braces off. That didn't take long; it seemed like Jill had hers on for years. Jinger, Joy and Joseph all got them around the same time. I'm sure their busy schedule had a hand in that; they weren't home much last year. Poor Joseph,he had some really janked up teeth, so I expect he'll have his braces on much longer than Joy, who just seemed to have some minor overlap issues, as well as the oversized Jim Bob teeth that none of the other girls have...although time will tell with the younger ones.

Wampascat said...

I grew up in an alcoholic , abusive home, but I take care of my kids and have since birth. They're all boys. I cheer them on when they need it, encourage them , yell at them when thy need it, I watch them grow and change and learn,listen to their hopes, dreams and opinions. I jerk a knot in their tail when they need it, but they are great kids. I have one that is a junior in college, one that's a senior in high school and a fourth grader. They have friends from all walks of life. They are kind to everyone. I give them big bear hugs every day ( not side hugs, shame on Mihelle). I sent them all to Chritian school when they were in elementary school and gave them the choice to continue when they got to high school. The two oldest chose public school because it offered more extracurricular activities. Soon, before I am ready, they will all be gone, ready to live their own lives. It's my job to prepare them as best I can. Michelle and Jim Bob are doing a grave injustice to their children.

Nancy said...

Michelle's latest "Parentables" blog is up and it's more of the same...damage control.

http://parentables.howstuffworks.com/family-matters/michelle-duggars-take-time-outs.html

She still refuses to use the term "time out," even though that's what putting your kid in a chair for five minutes (seen on the show with Jackson), or now claiming that she has them sit down with a book, is.

Do they actually read or not during these "quiet times?" She says both in the span of two sentences.

Basically, it's all about the blind obedience that is at the center of Gothard's philosophy. Always withholding, which she advocates, breeds negativity and fear, which are also hallmarks of Gothard's teachings. If you're fearful and do what you are told on command, you're either going to be a rebel (as we see in Josh's behavior once he got out on his own) or an extreme kool-aid drinker like Jill, who will probably never leave ATI/IBLP.

Frankly, I hope some of the kids can escape and someday assimilate into "regular" society, but the way Michelle and Jim Bob have conditioned them since birth. Even with Amy around they still lack so much experience that the rest of us take for granted because Gothard thinks "worldly" popular culture is sinful, it's going to be a long, hard road for anyone who leaves. Probably with a lot of counseling involved to undo the damage their parents have done, especially "Mother of the Year" Michelle, who, aside from Josie, hasn't bonded with her kids in any real way since maybe Jessa was born; after that, she admits it became nearly impossible for her, and once Jana turned 7 or 8, she began parenting her own siblings after Michelle's bonding time...as long as they nursed, at any rate. Since Michelle had some of those kids 13 months apart, some of them got almost no time to bond with her at all.

Sad, really.

tulip said...

Although a reference to another show, way back to times of early Gosselin, Kate & Jon (especially Kate) emphasized if any one family member no longer wanted to do the show, or if it became unsafe to continue, etc. they would stop ASAP. (We all know how that turned out...) ANYWAY, wonder if the Duggars have ever talked about that for their family and show. I've never heard them comment about anything like that, and it would be a good question for a Q&A show. As criticism is escalating to an all time high, Josh & Anna scrutinized daily, and even Michelle getting prank questions on interviews and radio shows, I'm curious as to if they have any limits to their "ministry", or if they'll sacrifice any family member's/or all dignity for the sake of the paycheck (as Kate G.)

Abby said...

The fact that the Duggars are not physically abusive to their children or screaming at them all the time does not mean they are good parents or role models. Not all bad parents hit and scream. Some bad parents use other methods to harm. Contrary to the Duggar model, it is entirely possible to be Christian parents, model genuine faith for your children, have warm, affectionate relationships with your children (and a strong relationship together as a married couple), and not restrict, handicap, or spiritually bully your kids. The Duggar "kids" (not just kids but also several adults now) have been taught that if they step out of line, they risk losing their only support system and probably will be rejected by God. That's not biblical, and it's not love.

The Duggar girls are "allowed" to choose a life from the Gothard life path, but what choice is that? The girls can "choose" to stay at home unless and until their father allows them to court and marry, and only then to the man he allows. Maybe Jim Bob is taking their opinions into account, but do you honestly believe any of those girls dare express an opinion that doesn't line up with what daddy wants to hear? They can "choose" to take only a few classes from Gothard-affiliated institutions and cannot pursue any other type of education or career. They can "choose" to be unpaid, 24/7 nannies. They can "choose" to get married as the only way to be allowed out of their parents' home and long list of required chores, but that marriage will require them to agree that their husband is their boss and has authority and control over every aspect of life. They then can "choose" to get pregnant as many times as physically possible even if doctors advise against it, not only because they can "choose" never to use actual birth control but also because they can "choose" not to avoid having sex for a small period of time each month based on ovulation. They can't even "choose" to attempt natural family planning like that. The Duggars girls sure do have a lot of choices, and mom and dad have made sure they are equipped to take all of those choices and nothing else.

zebracrossing said...

This picture of Mackenzie and her friend on Anna's instagram is so cute. Just wondering where she would have made a friend that doesn't where skirts. Does Mackenzie where pants sometimes?

http://web.stagram.com/n/mackynziesmom/

sandi said...

>I'm curious as to if they have any limits to their "ministry", or if they'll sacrifice any family member's/or all dignity for the sake of the paycheck (as Kate G.)

-----------------------
I don't know,I'm not really seeing anything conservative about their behavior though,other than the Gothard mandates.I know wayy too much about their sex lives,they're on tv,and the ladies' cycles than I care to know.
It seems as long as one SAYS they are conservative within the Duggar realm,that's good enough,apparently.I wonder if they would stop to pause for a minute,and if so,they might realize they're actuaally much more liberal in some ways than the rest of us.JMO.

sandi said...

From the link,well,for starters,for godness sake,any parenting expert can tell you,when a child is throwing a fit,you don't get down on the floor with them.They need to know someone is still in control,and they need reassurance of that.The best thing to do is to stand over them,and,without saying a word,just move then a little bit.It doesn't have to be far,but by doing that,you're letting them know you're still the one in control.I learned this one early on,and it works.

londonbridges said...

The Duggars were willing to 'sacrifice' Anna's dignity with her toilet birth. I think they would be willing to keep on with their encouraging ministry AKA reality show.

sandi said...

Yes Mac wears pants sometimes.I think she is wearing them on the 'Mackynzie mic'ed up' episode.that one can be found online.(the one where she is talking and wearing a mic).

ImaFan said...

The goal of discipline is SELF DISCIPLINE. This is coming from a professor of mine from college, my B.A. is in Child Development. Children thrive best when there is structure. On another note, being the dictator type parent of standing over your child..., to each his own. As long as you are consistent with what you do, and it works for your family go for it. I am sorry to say that I will have to agree with Michelle, getting down to eye level is probably going to have a better response. I will have the child stand up, me on bended knee not on the floor laying there next to them. After many years of teaching in Child Development Centers, I can say the dictator standing over the child, does not work too well with most kids. They end up fearing, hating then acting out against you. Again though laying on the floor as the parent in my opinion is never okay. You have to at least get the child off the floor. My kids do get timeouts, when they are done they come talk to me, they don't get books to read. If they ask for more time to think about the situation, by all means they get more time. The kid has to be calm enough to hear what you are saying, or else you will be talking to a wall. As an adult if someone upsets you, do you really want to talk about it right away, or would you rather not look at them for a while?

Alberta Rose said...

We all have our role models. There are parts of Michelle that I find are an offset as to how I was brought up and how my mother is now. My mom doesn't like that Michelle ignored Dolly Parton's big boobs and focused on her charity work, as well as singing. She thinks it's wrong that thanks to the Duggars, our son thinks it's okay to take food to the homeless shelter, or due to spending an afternoon helping landscape a large yard, he knows what Servants Anonymous is. Her eyebrows went up and she pulled a face when he said "I'm going to be like the Duggar boys and when I'm old enough, we're going to participate in a mission trip". The Duggars help normalize things that our church teaches, because my son sees it on television.

I have a pretty good idea due to some of the ways Michelle and I are alike, we had similiar experiences as young females. She calls it "baggage", I call it "learning experiences", both of us choosing not to tell all in a Jerry Springer way but still causing early life experiences and parental reactions to those experiences to cause us to walk a different life path then most women.

sandi said...

Imafan,I don't mean stand over them like a dictator.I mean stay calm,let them borrow that calm (that's what they need),and move them just a little bit, to let them know you're the one still in control.That's what I learned from a child psych.That gives them a feeling of security.That's just what they need when they're out of control..to know that someone else is IN control,even when they aren't.

Elvira said...

http://web.stagram.com/p/206544961237770436_5173671

Josh comments against Home Depot and JCPenney.

imaamy said...

Did anyone see the latest on instagram...a toilet installation and cheese and crackers? Wow.

Wampascat said...

New toilet? Perhaps preparing for a birth? Lol

Andrea said...

Okay, this is just getting out of hand. I really need to stop reading and looking at the intagram account of dumb and dumber, Josh and Anna Duggar. Next to the toilet Anna writes: "I'm so thankful for a diligent husband! You're awesome sweetie!!!!" Big WOW, Josh and Anna, btw. Millions of people take care of their homes and businesses each and every day and don’t need to post about it. That said, Amy posted a photo of her boyfriend graduating from college last week and Josh wrote a message of congratulations. I found that highly satisfying. I was thinking: You too could have graduated from college sucker, too bad you’re stuck with a wife and two kids!! Oh, but you live debt free – good for you.

tulip said...

Oh wow, did not look at Instagram for 2 whole days and just look what I missed! Ugh...sickening! First, Josh's pics: Anna praising Josh for installing a toilet? Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe she's commenting how diligent he is because he's amazingly doing some actual work. BTW, that is a really cheap toilet, esp. for a non-residential installation. That pic of Anna holding the coffee is either another nod to the "is she or isn't she?" (Anna drinking caffeine if she's pregnant? Maybe, or maybe decaf) Anyway, Anna has a weird expression, and looks terrible. And, what's with the Star of David necklaces lately? Didn't Jana or one of the girls just wear one in the Duggar family portrait pics?

Anna's pic: That photo she posted of Michael balling is so sad. She obviously thinks it's cute and hilarious. Josh & Anna have the worst taste in posting, and just taking any picture, especially of their kids. Way back when they were having their ultrasound of Michael, they joked he was "camera shy"...no, he just knew what was going on and what was coming! Lol. He rarely looks happy in any picture, probably because he knows his photog parents are so lame.

Josh's followers: Just a barrage of brainless comments. Josh taking a picture of the moon, and one comment mentioning something about Venus, and another commenting "What?"-yeah, it's been all over the news and papers, etc., etc. A once in a lifetime chance to see Venus...Hello! No clue.

Amy: How many times can she possibly post another pic of her and her boyfriend, commenting "Love him!", "Love HIM!", "Love this picture!" Ugh...If you all love each other so much, just get married already! (and show the Duggar girls how it's done.)

Nancy said...

Hey, I just fixed my toilet. Maybe Anna can write me a note of encouragement. I haven't been told how "diligent" I am yet today.

*eyeroll*

Josh hoisted himself on his own petard with the JC Penney's/Home Depot remarks. Someone questioned why he's using Apple products, a company that is LGBT-friendly. He promptly deleted it, but the OP kept a copy and posted to the facebook section of comments, over which the Instagram user has no conrtol.

Proves yet again that "tolerance" and "equality" are four letter words in Duggarland. Lord help any of them that start to question their existence, or even worse, decide life would be happier if they came out of the closet and moved far, far away from the fundie circus of Christian "love."

Seriously? said...

And today's "Best Comment" winner:

"New toilet? Perhaps preparing for a birth?"

Thinking your husband is a god-sent wonder because he fixed a toilet is just more of Duggar sub-zero life and personal 'expectations' as Michelle might call aspirations.

The bar is set L-O-W in Duggarland. We wouldn't want to have any of those heathen 'expectations', would we? Better to remain proudly uneducated and consider our lack of initiative and achievements holy and humble.

(Though I am surprised that a Duggar actually used the word, "diligent" - wow, a 3 syllable-r!)

tulip said...

They all have iphones, and have for quite awhile. They mention them a lot, as well as show them off. Certainly seems like a promo to me. Oh, what's that you say?, the company supports what? Oh, let's change the subject...how about Lowe's-great place! They are so fickle-not supporting one business, but then it's okay to support another, because, after all, they can't give up their beloved iphones! Phony. Josh & Anna need to have their iphones confiscated if not just to stop taking pictures of their kids. Poor Michael-everyone always comments how cute he is, but the only pics they've really posted show him timid or frightened, or deer-in-the-headlights, or eating. As far as Josh & Anna go, I agree with Andrea's comment: "Dumb and Dumber" is right.

Nancy said...

As near as I can tell, Josh deleted some comments from the post (toilet baby one included), but am told the Facebook comments remain (although I can't see them).

Our little Joshie is an expert at dishing it out, but he sure can't take even the slightest bit of heat.

In other news, the Duggarblog has an interview up with Jill regarding progress on the girls' book. Basically, there has been none (shocker).

I wonder if JimBob and Michelle used the same ghostwriter for their first two books, both of which were narrative and syntactical messes. At least one could read them in an evening, take an Advil (or drink some wine to alleviate the pounding in the temples) and go to sleep.

Miggy said...

Josh posting his own and Anna's vote was bad. Now he is posting someone elses!

Beth Anne said...

Re: "Amy posted a photo of her boyfriend graduating from college last week and Josh wrote a message of congratulations. I found that highly satisfying. I was thinking: You too could have graduated from college sucker, too bad you’re stuck with a wife and two kids!! Oh, but you live debt free – good for you."

The sad thing is that I'm sure Josh is quite smugly satisfied that HE is the one worthy of congratulations and admiration...because he is his parents' golden boy and because he fulfilled the Gothard blueprint of marrying young and under-educated and pro-creating asap. Yes, I believe marriage and parenthood are sacred, but I also believe God has blessed us all with unique talents and gifts that could be used in numerous ways. And I believe the Duggar's insular ways have made them blind to the fact that others in the world ALSO get married, raise loving families, work, and do the every day things they seem to think are unique to them and make them holier than the rest of us.

I really do wonder what they think the "rest of us" do every day....

Beth Anne said...

Also, I caught part of a re-run Duggar episode yesterday that the TV guide said would showcase Michelle's homeschooling "skills." The only skills she showed were using the house intercom system to call a few of the kids to the dining room table, snapping her fingers at a restless boy, and asking the looking-bored kids to repeat the word "synonym" after her. Then, they switched to footage of the ATI schooling conference they all attend and showed the little boys involved in some sort of "ranger" or explorer program. In her interview, Michelle said it is probably like Boy Scouts, and I kept thinking, why can't the Duggar boys actually do Boy Scouts? Is it because it is outside the Duggar compound? Because Gothard doesn't approve? What would be so wrong about having the boys participate in something like that were they would learn new skills and meet new kids?

Then, Jim Bob drove the Duggar bus to a (gasp!) public school that invited them for their international day festivities. The parents and kids seemed clueless about what they were doing and had to have the school children fill in the word "tortilla" for them, when they were making torillas. Seriously, Michelle was like, what did we just make? Then, Jim Bob basically took over the China room presentation when he loudly announced that their cameraman could speak fluent Chinese and that the cameraman should get up and teach everyone a few Chinese words. Not that the school kids didn't enjoy it, but how rude is that to interrupt the teacher and tell the cameraman to get up there and speak Chinese? But, the Duggars get away with it, I guess, because Michelle just giggles in her baby voice and their after-the-fact interviews say how great that was, so it MUST be true. Ugh!

Jen said...

"I really do wonder what they think the "rest of us" do every day...."

----------------------------------
Good question. I wonder too what they think the "rest of us" do.

I have a guess. I think they think both mother and father wake early and drop the kids off at day care to be care for by another (public school if old enough to be taught be another). That the mothergets off work around dinner and picks up the kids from day care. A quick dinner to eat while we drive our kids to lessons to be keep our kids occupied so we can relax or do some work at home on our computer. Then head home to relax in front of tv while the kids do their homework, or the kids head to thier room to watch tv too. Then the kids go off to bed. The Dad might come home from work a bit before kids bedtime or even after the kids bedtime. Thus the statement that "Most father only spend 10 mins. or less talking to their children"

I believe that is what they think and that is why they feel they know their children better and spend more time with their children the the "rest of us" do with our children.

Cadence said...

Looking at Anna's webstagram, I noticed two surprising things:
-Mackynzie and her friend hugging (normal hugging)
-And Michael wearing a pink bib!

I thought those things were "forbidden" in Duggarville.

tulip said...

Josh still taking/posting pics of ballots? For someone who has bragged about his interest in political science and law, and even hoping to one day get a law degree (cough, snicker), amazing how he can be such an absolute dunce. Again, Josh & Anna need to have their iphones confiscated for a complete lack of any common sense on when and how they are used. I'm sure the next season will have a boatload of damage control in their talking heads segment, which Sean is probably drafting right now. Josh can blab about how great America is and what a privilege it is to be able to vote. Anna will recite how special it is to be able to snap a photograph on a whim, capturing all of life's everyday moments, no matter how big or small. All this while they chuckle lovingly at each other, and Anna praises Josh for being such a super husband and father. Yuck.

tulip said...

I think it's rude of the Duggars to assume that in "other families", the parents (dad) only spends 10 min. or so a day with their kids and family, and the mom misses out on "precious time" if they're not homeschooled. Jim Bob (supposedly) works from home, but all I ever see him doing is walking around with his cell phone pouch clipped to his belt. Same goes for Josh, who walks around snapping pics with his phone and has a pen clipped to his shirt. Michelle passes off her responsibilities to the older ones while she gets ready for a speaking engagement, or anything other then actually looking after the little kids, and Anna spends her time curling her hair, applying makeup and scoping out photo ops to brag about on Instagram. It seems to me "other families" are actually working and living in the real world to provide for their kids, and spending quality time with them instead of roaming around the house and making a dog and pony show production out of everything. Oh, but they always watch themselves so as not to offend always making sure to add the Duggar disclaimer: "this is what we found works for OUR family".

tulip said...

Josh posting a pic of someoneELSE 'hard at work' at Duggar Automotive-again, everyone else works while Josh goes around taking pics. How diligent.

Seriously? said...

Amen! to Jen. How many Duggar comments have we heard about "other people would probably (fill in the blank with some inferior behavior) but WE...(fill in the blank with something far more righteous than 'other people' would ever do).

The Duggars are as judgemental as they are completely out of touch with what 'other people would probably do'. They are CLUELESS. Delusional about those outside their uber conservative cult.

Why is it that GROWN people like Josh and Anna behave and conduct their lives like preteens?? Oh yeah... because they were raised in a bubble and encouraged never to think, never to question, simply obey - remain a child even in adulthood.

I'd much rather have what the Duggars consider 'baggage' from a life well lived than live my adult life as a dullwitted child. But, of course, this is JMO.

ImaFan said...

Why is it that the Duggars can clump all past experiences as negative? Did they not enjoy their teen years? Was Michelle destroyed over having a job? Is it really that big a deal that she was a cheerleader in a public high school, who wore shorts and pants? If wearing shorts and pants gives those that wear them a fast pass to anywhere other than "home" with thine heavenly father, then so be it. I'll see my whole family with me in the after life and never have to deal with Duggars and Duggar like followers.

Pam said...

What I don't understand is how they are taking pictures while voting. I can't speak for anywhere else, but in Georgia, you are asked immediately to TURN OFF your cell phone and there are signs everywhere stating the same. I always just leave mine in my car.

Rudy Tecat said...

I bet Joshie is playing with us, putting up pictures of food all the time. If he ever posted a photo of a salad we'd have nothing to talk about.

Alberta Rose said...

The Duggars are as judgemental as they are completely out of touch with what 'other people would probably do'. They are CLUELESS. Delusional about those outside their uber conservative cult.

That goes for anyone who is impassioned about a certain way of life. An American friend of mine who is hardcore Democrat thought there might be wedding bells in the future for one of his grandaughters because she had graduated from high school. The guy's parents told him if he married someone whose family were into hunting, they'd never speak to him again.

I guess the point I've been trying to make is I know people who don't know Gothard, don't know the Duggars, don't even know God but have the same basic philosophy which is stick to a certain way of life, talk about how that is the best way of life, have strict guidelines and do your best to make sure each generation doesn't deviate from that way of life.

Betty said...

So do you think the Duggars are right in what in what they are doing? Do you agree that being insular is the way that they should bring up their children?

These "other people" discussed aren't on TV "witnesssing" to people and trying to draw people into their lifestyle are they?

I think the proof of childrearing is in how the children turn out as adults. So far the Duggars have only let one out of the nest and he's proving to be an empty-headed bigot, hypocrite, and arrogant narcissist just like his parents IMO.

What I'm saying is that I don't really care about "what other people are doing" that I don't know, don't see, and aren't promoting themselves on TV. What do YOU think of the Duggars actions and not in relation to such a worthless old saw as other people do it. Are the Duggars right or are the Duggars wrong? I don't care about fictional people who live two towns over from you and I'll never meet.

Jen said...

"The Duggars are as judgemental as they are completely out of touch with what 'other people would probably do'. They are CLUELESS. Delusional about those outside their uber conservative cult."
~~~~
That goes for anyone who is impassioned about a certain way of life.

--------------------------
I believe people can be impassioned about a certain way of life and certainly not be delusional nor clueless about how others live.

To me, the Duggar's statements show they are impassioned but they seems delusional or clueless about how "others" live.

I do wonder where they get the notions of how others live.

Hannah said...

If the Duggars are so against Abortion. Why do they risk their lives and others when not using basic safety, driving when texting, putting kids in trees, putting kids in the front seat(even if its parked. If it got hit from the back it would hurt the child).

Seriously? said...

"That goes for anyone who is impassioned about a certain way of life."
----------------------------------
Yep. Sure does.

Consider:

FDLS/Jeff Warrens

Jim Jones

Charles Manson

Nazi Germany/Hitler

I think we could all agree these people were "impassioned about a certain way of life".

History has taught us that raising children to: blindly, unthinkingly obey, consider questioning a moral flaw, fear and dread diversity of thought,deed, genetics has NOT served humankind well.

I wish the Duggars were capable of comprehending the obvious lessons learned from history.

Stephanie said...

I thought I had seen all Duggar episodes but I never saw the Colorado trip until the re run this morning. Josie was maybe 18 months and they took the bus to Colorado except for Michelle and Josie.

I am sure this has been discussed when this aired but I didn't know. It wasn't too bad until the end and a few nice things.
1. Jordyn got behind the counter and sqeezed sunscreen all over herself (she was cute and didn't like what she had done her face said it all). Jordyn was not being watched because everyone was occupied with trying on boots. I think the Duggars expect employees and strangers to to watch over the toddlers at places like that.
2. They bought ski clothes at goodwill and still it cost $235.00. That is something I would buys used because its highly doubtful they will ski again and TLC paid for it while the Dugger save the difference.
3. What bugged me the most?
Michelle.
She stayed home with Josie while pregnant Anna had to ride for how long on a bus, pregnant with 21 other people so she could babysit in Colorado? Why didn't they leave Jordyn and Jennifer with THEIR MOTHER in Arkansas? And we got to see more cheerleading pictures of Michelle and heard her repeat a cheer on camera.

Anna is a sucker for doing these trips and babysitting. She should tell Josh "if you want to go on the bus and go skiing, go. The kids and I will stay here. Enjoy"
But she won't.

Wampascat said...

Sadly, I'm sure the above topics are not mentioned in the wisdom books. :-(

tulip said...

Anna goes on all the trips probably because they get paid-I can't imagine any other reason, especially with little kids and/or being pregnant. If they don't get paid, it's because Josh thinks the continual presence of the next generation in the show will keep them popular so they can hopefully get opportunities to make money. The episode where the Duggars went swimming at Miss Teresa's house, Anna was there and she really seemed out of place-there wasn't any logical reason Josh & co. family would be there. And the trips that she's on, she's always babysitting or being the one to tote around her own kids, sans Josh (like on the world tour when she had the front carrier on walking in that parade, she looked like she was ready to either fall over or punch somebody)

Latest Instagram pic Josh posts a healthy dinner thanking Anna for cooking it. Every once in a while he shows something like that as if to prove he isn't always at restaurants. However, he probably used that as an excuse to go out to Braums afterward to indulge in a giant sundae. And, people commenting what a good husband he is to appreciate his wife and thank her for her hard work. Ugh-as if Josh needs any more people inflating his big head for something he should be doing anyway, without accolades.

rudy tecat said...

I guess I have nothing to say about Joshie's pictures...he posted a picture of his dinner last night: rice and broccoli

Patrice said...

omg; the people that post on his instagram are insane: declaring their love for him, and on the not-spectacular ordinary sunset phot, someone wrote: "Josh, why are you so awesome?"
I'm assuming these are 13 year old girls, but why oh why did they pick this loser as their first crush? Ick, ick, ick.

Nancy said...

Michelle's latest Parentables is up:

http://parentables.howstuffworks.com/family-matters/michelle-duggars-secret-getting-baby-sleep-through-night.html#mkcpgn=fbtlc1

She's passing along the "bundling" technique as if she used it with all her kids, but she learned in the NICU (even saying "they won't like it at first") which means she only used it with Josie.

Also, what's with this rice before the final nursing of the night when the babies were 6-8 months old? Maybe with the first few, but once Jana was handed her first 6-month old buddy, circa age 7, and given the fact that Michelle had several kids 13-15 months apart, meaning they didn't nurse for even 6 months (remember her saying her milk changes and the babies refuse to nurse?).

A more accurate statement would have been "the baby's buddy fed him/her rice before their last feeding before they were put down [in the girls' room] for the night."

The disingenuous nature of this woman just gets worse. I guess she truly believes that there are people (suckers) out there who will hang on her every word as gospel and not even notice the discrepancies, even when they've been addressed both on the show and in their books.

Stephanie said...

People shouldn't give Josh props for thanking his wife for all she does, that is what he should do.

Yes, I am sure Josh makes money when Anna tags along on trips but she doesn't see a penny for herself.

Michelle didn't have to babysit or ride the bus to Colorado and she still got paid by TLC. It just seems Anna does all the dirty work and doesn't reap any reward.

Someone along time ago mentioned maybe the teenage girls don't do as much as they act like? On that Colorado episode Johannah and Jackson were doing an interview and Johannah was downright dirty looking, with dirty unbrushed hair. Maybe Michelle does oversee much more of the child care because I think they slack off when Michelle isn't around. Ex. Jordyn getting in the sunscreen, I the boys and their hairgel, (they don't look like they wash it out it just looks like they goop gel on everyday) I am sure there are other examples.

sandi said...

The latest flattery comments on Josh's webstagram seem fake and planned,IMO.There are just too many of them,all saying basically the same thing.Just sayin'.

Seriously? said...

Pardon my typo. FDLS = Warren Jeffs, not Jeff Warrens.

On another topic: Just curious: What is the job market like in the general Tontitown area? Is there ANYTHING in that locale (besides USED cars and Fire Depts.) that offer any type of meaningful employment opportunities?

Jen said...

In Michelle's blog, she is offering tip for helping baby to sleep. She is talking about what she did with her babies. She mentions bundling (swaddling) and mentions she learned it from the NICU nurses.

Did Michelle have any other children besides Joise who spent time in the NICU or did she just learn bundling with her 19th, Josie?

Jen said...

In an interview with the 700 club I believe it was,Michelle said the babies typical sleep in the nursey nook in Jim Bob and Michelle's room until 18 months or so and that Josie would be closer to 2 years old.

zebracrossing said...

Tontitown is a part of NW Arkansas and there are LOTS of companies and businesses. There are many millionares there as well....
Arvest Banking, JB Hunt, Cargill, Dayspring, Tysons, Walmart headquarters, several large school systems besides all the retail jobs at malls...there are several nice hospitals. University of Arkansas. Probably more....all within 30-45 minutes or less of Tontitown.

I also was wondering what other child was in NICU. It does sound like she is writing a general advice column about bundling with only the experience she had with Josie. It is a good article...just doesn't come across as very truthful unless one of the other children was in NICU. It sounds over edited....the baby this...the baby that.

pumpkin said...

Tontitown is reasonably close to Fayetteville, which is a decently sized city with a university and other largish companies. There are plenty of stores where the older children could get retail jobs or office jobs that don't require a college education.

tulip said...

The Instagram pic of Mack & friend on the trampoline: I can tell it's not Jim Bob & Michelle's trampoline since all the safety features are intact-padded cover over the springs and an enclosure net. Okay Josh, this is called providing safety for your kids. Since it's evident the Duggars are not very attuned to any safety awareness, he better take a mental note.

Cadence said...

"Did Michelle have any other children besides Joise who spent time in the NICU or did she just learn bundling with her 19th, Josie"
-----------------
Considering there are 19 of them, it's highly plausible. In Michelle's third pregnancy, with Jana and John David, she had preeclampsia, so the babies may have been in the NICU if they were born early, but I don't know the situation.

Seriously? said...

Thanks for the Tontitown info.

One marvels at so many Duggars, having 'graduated' from high school at 16, yet remain cloistered, nun-like, at home.

Especially with the job ops mentioned here, WHAT A WASTE to keep grown offspring eternal children, plugged into the parental umbilical cord and purse strings.

Lisa said...

I also think I remember hearing that with Jed/Jer that one of the twins had problems with his lungs when he was born so he may have been in the NICU also

Nancy said...

Tontitown is a part of NW Arkansas and there are LOTS of companies and businesses. There are many millionares there as well....
Arvest Banking, JB Hunt, Cargill, Dayspring, Tysons, Walmart headquarters, several large school systems besides all the retail jobs at malls...there are several nice hospitals. University of Arkansas. Probably more....all within 30-45 minutes or less of Tontitown.
==================================

That's great, but unfortunately the Duggar children will not be qualified or allowed to work in any of those positions. Gothard espouses self-employment; taking orders from a superior who may not be like-minded in their religious beliefs is a no-no. That's why none of the boys join the military and instead have the ALERT program set up by Gothard to give boys the experience of both scouting and, with the young men, first-responder skills. Gothard has encouraged the young adults to get basic first-responder certification in their areas, given that they are mostly rural and of the volunteer variety. That way, they're only taking orders from an "equal" and are not being paid, so as twisted as it is, that's okay.

Also, Jill, Jana and Jinger spoke at a Christian homeschool conference in Chicago earlier this weekend. You can click through to hear portions of parts 1&2 of the speech without having to pay. Be warned: no courting, lots of Gothard-speak: their example about boys sounds a lot like Amy, and it's in the mode of disapproval. Some BS about how Jim Bob and/or Michelle take Saturdays to "listen to the hearts" of their kids. Since they spend a lot of Saturdays on the speaking circuit, I'm curious when this actually happens. There are only so many hours in the day.

http://www.iche.org/person/3085/jill-duggar

ImaFan said...

From what I could find, Jana and John David were premature. So it is possible they were in the NICU, not all premature babies are, it depends on their condition at birth.

summer11 said...

Seeing how Josh posts such controversial stuff on his Instagram and how much (or little compared to the average American) he now pays attention to current events since being married off and his own “authority,” I have some hope for the younger children. Just the picture on Anna’s Instagram of her playing Apples to Apples caught my attention and made me wonder how she would even play that game since she wasn’t allowed to keep up with pop culture, music, trends, etc. Remember how Michelle said that none of her kids know who The Beatles are?
I think that there is a chance, whether big or small that once some of the younger kids grow up they’ll branch out and be able to do other things like go to college or work outside of the home. I have hope that the boys’ views and the girls’ future husbands’ views (I HATE that those girls will be under their husband’s “authority”) will become a little more contemporary and they will begin to see the value of education and other forms of work.

Nancy said...

IIRC, Michelle had pre-eclempsia with the older twins, but they were around 36 weeks gestation, well within normal viability. They probably spent a few days in the NICU, tops (especially given they were so young and probably had minimal insurance, if any at all). No swaddling lessons there if the babies were all wired up to ensure they were okay. Maybe someone with actual experience with this situation can chime in and educate people like me in the care that they likely would have received.

bill said...

honestly wouldn't surprise me if Michelle just means the maternity ward. since they're usually near each in hospitals, she could just be using the words interchangeably.

Alberta Rose said...

One thing I don't agree with when it comes up, is dressing for virtue. Lustful thoughts are all on the person doing the looking. Even the women who go around covered head to toe, with a special opening that lets them see but you can't see their eyes can cause lustful thoughts. There are people whose mentality is Woman=Lust. It's about teaching self control, not about teaching dressing for virtue.

sandi said...

What happened to College Plus (I mean,college minus,as it's usually called),and Jill being a nurse,and Josh getting a law degree,etc? It all but seems to have disappeared.So they were just a walking ad for it,for a time?

tulip said...

Whether or not Michelle had any other babies in the NICU is irrelevant-I don't really know why she bothered to mention "bundling" like it's some kind of industry secret since most any mom already knows about this! It's pretty much in any baby care book you pick off the shelf, and it's one of the top 5 best ways to help soothe a baby. I guess she just learned about this, having no clue it's common practice for many everyday moms. Must not be in the Gothard handbook.

Andrea said...

Concerning the Audio files currently for sale on the Illinois Christian Home Educators website, entitled: The Six Most Important Area In A Girl's Life. Nancy did you actually buy the file and what exactly are we to believe are the most import things for the Duggar adult daughters? I actually find the situation with the adult daughter's highly disturbing. But perhaps hearing them tell their side of the story will make the situation less appalling.

ImaFan said...

Nancy, my twins were in the NICU for 5 weeks and once they were out from under the blue lights (for jaundice) the nurses there bundled the babies tightly. The wires were just tucked out of the way and out the open corner. We would call them baby burritos. That being said, every mom I have ever encountered, new and old, know about bundling. This knowledge comes from many sources, books, handed down advice, the hospital itself. So for Michelle to impart such wisdom is ridiculous to think that this is an unheard of practice. Besides not all babies succumb to the swaddling, some babies/people can't handle being wrapped like that.

tulip said...

I'm guessing all the talk awhile back about CollegePlus was 1)damage control and 2)a big promo, most likely for money. During the time CollegePlus came up, there was a lot of talk and criticism about the kids and college. All of a sudden, the Duggars start up with CollegePlus-every other word out of their mouths was something to do with the older kids having finished homeschooling, graduating at 16 and what's next. Shortly after that, there was a promo video and some of the kids were even wearing CollegePlus t-shirts. Haven't seen a t-shirt since.

Elvira said...

The first four minutes of the audio clips are free. For me two minutes or less of each were enough. Jill unfortunately sounds like an immature twelve year old to me. It was actually pretty pathetic hearing someone with such limited life experience talking as if she really knew the world.

Nancy said...

I was able to listen to the portions of the clips they provided just fine. You just have to pay to hear the entire speech.

Regarding the Chicago trip, of course the Duggar "girls" weren't allowed to stay in a hotel when chaperones are available (and a married sister-in-law). More on the conference and reading the blog, apparently a really warped opinion on the origins of homeschooling in America. Gothard's views, or course...David Waller and Priscilla are even more indoctrinated into Gothard than even Jill.

http://davidlovespriscilla.com/2012/06/10/illinois-state-home-education-conference/

For that level of material, the girls really need a powerpoint presentation if they're already using a computer for their notes.

Nikki said...

Agreed. My oldest wouldn't sleep without being swaddled, while my youngest wouldn't sleep unless she could ball her fists up by her face. Furthermore, as you stated, every mother knows about swaddling, regardless of the term they may use. That's a common practice amongst many cultures for the past dozen eons.

Rainbow68 said...

Yes, Alberta Rose! : Their is an UNHEALTHY obsession with sex among these people. I remember years ago, women who raped were criticized for wearing revealing clothing, thus inviting the rape. This is an extreme example, of course, but it's in the same vein. I dress what I consider modestly, but even if I didn't, men can avert their eyes. The Gothardites seem to think that men are helpless horndogs who will spiral into destruction if they see a miniskirt. Ridiculous! Could this be because Gothard never married and maybe struggles mightily with lust himself?

londonbridges said...

As far as teaching self-control, I fail to understand why the Duggar young women are responsible to yell 'nike' whenever an 'improperly' dressed female passes by. My opinion is that each of us is equally responsible for our own thoughts and actions, not someone else. What happens when the older male blessings come across a scantily-clad woman, and their sibs aren't present? Just wondering........

I also think it is such a waste to keep the Duggar blessings living in a protected bubble, dependent on their parents for money, food, shelter, etc. With the opportunities available in and around their home, it seems there are several job choices for them. JMHO.

tulip said...

Guess Josh is advertising the fact that Sean & co. are in town filming for Michael's first Bday (as if we wouldn't assume that would be obvious material for an episode.) Taking pics at Hobby Lobby, etc.-wondering if TLC helps foot the bill for all the supplies. Sean's Instagram shows numerous pics of the cameras & crew...ok, we get it. After Josh posts pics showing shopping for more birthday stuff, one of his followers asks "Who's birthday is it?". Again, are any of his people clued into anything? Another ex.: Anna posts a pic of Mack & friend (a boy who obviously looks about 2 or maybe even 3), and someone asks if it's Michael. Wow, great fans.

Wampascat said...

I know, right? Michelle talks like she invented swaddling. The Lord was wrapped in "swaddling" clothes, mmmkay Michelle? Maybe next time she can let us in on the secret of breastfeeding.

MandySue said...

A couple of questions-

Dayspring is a Christian card company. Surely those people are "like minded"

Why do the skirts have to be denim? There are so many other choices that are modest. Does it have to be a skirt and shirt? Why not a dress?

I know that there are some pictures of them in other things but most of the time it's denim skirts.

Alberta Rose said...

Yes, I believe marriage and parenthood are sacred, but I also believe God has blessed us all with unique talents and gifts that could be used in numerous ways.

According to the Duggar blog, Jinger is using her photo talents to team up with another friend to do wedding photo shoots, and Jinger has become an apprentice midwife and Jana is a labor coach. Those might not be glamourous, feminist top 10 jobs but they are definitely using your talents and abilities.

londonbridges said...

Who is minding the youngest blessings if Jana, Jill and Jinger are using their talents and abilities outside the home? We know Michelle isn't a hands-on 'mom' after six months or so. Plus she has a full schedule encouraging and blessing others.

My intent was never to insinuate that the jobs the Duggar blessings have done/do now, need to be glamorous or 'important'. I wish they would be independent of JimBob and Michelle, earn their own money, and take care of themselves. The young ladies could share an apartment, where they would be together, and share expenses, etc. JMHO.

Beth Anne said...

Re: "According to the Duggar blog, Jinger is using her photo talents to team up with another friend to do wedding photo shoots, and Jinger has become an apprentice midwife and Jana is a labor coach. Those might not be glamourous, feminist top 10 jobs but they are definitely using your talents and abilities."

Amen to that, if it is true! I would love to see the adult girls finding their niche and using their God-given talents. However, I must be skeptical since the source of the information is the Duggar blog. People have pointed out numerous examples of what seems to be "damage control" in response to the trending criticism of the moment of their family. For example, when people started questioning what the older kids have been doing with themselves for all the years since they "graduated," all of a sudden, College Plus was thrown out there.

Also, I don't think any of the jobs mentioned has any type of degree associated with it...not that one needs a college or associates degree to have some sort of career, but of course people tend to make more money in the workplace when they have such degrees.

Jen said...

"According to the Duggar blog, Jinger is using her photo talents to team up with another friend to do wedding photo shoots, and Jinger has become an apprentice midwife and Jana is a labor coach. Those might not be glamourous, feminist top 10 jobs but they are definitely using your talents and abilities."

~~~~~~~

This did encourage me that the Duggar young ladies are doing other things besides babysitting their siblings.

The tape mentioned that Jinger was gone from the homeschool conference talk because she was taking photos of a wedding and was nervous about doing a good job because she was getting paid for the first time.
So we know Jinger will have pocket money.

Then that made me wonder do the Duggar sisters get paid to speak at ATI conferences and at the Illinois homeschooling conference? I saw Priscilla and David in a picture at a booth at the conference I believe that they get paid for the ministry as it appears from their blog that is their only job.

Andrea said...

Alberta Rose, it's not the labour coach or photographer are in any way less jobs, it's just totally unfair that the Duggar adult daughters have never been able to achieve their true potential. Maybe a lifesaving Doctor is among them or a cancer researcher. The simple fact is, the entire group has been denied the opportunity of an education. It’s very sad. I think to now say, Jana is doing so and so, and Jill is doing this is just a cover-up. They’ve been out of High School for years now. What exactly have they been doing with their time? We all know they’ve been acting as surrogate mother’s to their younger siblings and having their lives stolen from them.

MandySue said...

I just read the parentables...

Did she really say when the baby has been in my tummy? What are we five?

They can talk about their sex lives but can't use proper terms for pregancy?

Alberta Rose said...

Why do the skirts have to be denim? There are so many other choices that are modest. Does it have to be a skirt and shirt? Why not a dress?

I know that there are some pictures of them in other things but most of the time it's denim skirts.

Because denim skirts are inexpensive in secondhand stores, durable, flexible, easy to clean, don't absorb heat or cold and in theory men don't get turned on by a denim skirt unless a man gets turned on by hips in which case denim skirts are the worst possible thing to wear.

Beth Anne said...

Elvira said...

"The first four minutes of the audio clips are free. For me two minutes or less of each were enough. Jill unfortunately sounds like an immature twelve year old to me."

My curiosity got the better of me and I listened to the tape as well. I agree that Jill sounds like my child's middle school giggly-girl peers versus a mature adult. The other thing that stuck out to me was the extreme examples they used about the men, young and old, mailing them stuff and trying to "court" them. They made it into a joke, but all I could think was how dangerous it is that Jim Bob and Michelle have put their children out there for public "consumption" and now have men in jail sending them love notes. While the Duggar parental units say they are all about protecting their kid's hearts, etc., they sure have no problem exposing them on national TV, having them be speakers, and turning them into pseudo-celebrities. The second some sicko sent love mail to my daughter because he saw her on TV, the minute I'd pull the plug on the show.

ImaFan said...

Hysterical! I must have read right over that at first. Now it's all I see. Of course she says "in my tummy", Duggars are scared of all things scientific. If it is not Gotthard approved verbage they won't use it. So therefore I'm sure the word Uterus or even womb, can't be used. Tummy is a much more modest word.

tulip said...

Jinger has become an apprentice midwife? I guess I didn't realize she had such an interest in that, as we've heard so much about Jill & Jana. IMO, Jinger should focus on the photography-she seems much more inclined to it, and seems to have a natural talent. So many everyday people (without any professional training!) have their own photog business/website-including two of my own friends, and a neighbor a couple doors down.

Their outlook on courtship and any future relationship in general is immature, but then again, if you have your Dad screening these guys and essentially deciding for his daughters who they should even get an opportunity to meet and say hello to, I can see why they sound like a group of middle school girls instead of young women in their early 20s.

The girls have definitely worn out those denim skirts. Now that it's summer, there are so many other styles out there. In every regular store like Target, or even their beloved Walmart, you see the style that is in right now everywhere: boho, long/maxi skirts in so many colors and patterns. Seems just as easy, or more so, to wash & dry, not to mention season appropriate.

Unknown said...

Ok so I haven't watched the show in a while, and was watching the episode today about when they family helps out with habitat for humanity, and is also planting flowers to give to people. Jana appears to be wearing an engagement ring. Not the purity rings they usually wear, but a full-on diamond engagement ring. I can't find any buzz about this however. Is this an optical illusion?

Nancy said...

Could this be because Gothard never married and maybe struggles mightily with lust himself?

====================================

Yes. At least one woman sued him for sexual harassment and his brother had to resign from the ministry due to his inappropriate actions. The book "A Matter of Basic Principles" describes the cases in microscopic detail. I'm sure this info can also be easily Googled.

As far as the skirts go, they're not always denim; Joy got that hippie skirt from a San Francisco head shop (still my favorite episode ever) and they wear shorter, flowy, printed (usually floral) skirts as well. Also khaki for the family portrait shots before the most recent "blue" theme at Miss Havisham's house (with secondary headshots of the older girls in purple tops). Can't tell if they changed out of the denim skirts, but some are still wearing a blue sweater or undershirt, so my guess would be "quick shirt change" for those shots.

MandySue said...

Because denim skirts are inexpensive in secondhand stores, durable, flexible, easy to clean, don't absorb heat or cold and in theory men don't get turned on by a denim skirt unless a man gets turned on by hips in which case denim skirts are the worst possible thing to wear.
--------------------------------

HUH? Couldn't a lose fitting cotton skirt do the same thing? It's cooler, if it's thick you can't see through it, it wouldn't hug the body.

Why is it the women's responsibility not to turn a man on? Shouldn't they learn self control?

Patrice said...

It's nice that the girls are supposedly branching out and doing things, but there is a big difference between "taking pictures" at a friend's wedding (most likely another "like-minded" person, and doing true quality wedding photography. Jinger may have it in her, but most wedding photogs worth their salt have gone to a tech school, a college or other fine arts school to learn how to do truly artistic wedding photography. Unless the other person she is working with is an educated pro and Jinger is doing a quality apprenticeship, I believe she is still being stifled by the parentals. There could be a true artist hidden in her. I do free-lance photography for a small-town newspaper and I do pretty well at it-as a second job. However, there is no way in heck I would attempt doing a wedding without some formal training. There is a lot more to learn than meets the eye.
Same with the girls who are learning midwifery or doula techniques. There is so much at stake if one hasn't had professional training-two lives are in their hands every time they attend a birth. Are they being formally trained and getting degrees and do they know they have to carry insurance to prevent being sued if anything goes wrong? Not knocking their ambitions or intent, but some things in life just can't be done with random shortcuts.

Seriously? said...

re: "bundling": surprising Michelle Duggar hasn't claimed a Biblical rationale, as "swaddling" is the same basic thing as "bundling".

Is wrapping and holding a baby close really something one has to teach? Isn't that pretty instinctive for most humans (and, because we know the concept of evolution is considered evil in Duggar Land, don't tell the Duggars, but apes know to hold their newborn babies close. & they figured it out without NICU RNs or the bible!)

Beth Anne said...

Patrice said: "There is so much at stake if one hasn't had professional training"

I totally agree! And I think this statement is true for whatever "field" the Duggars are supposedly dabbling in, be it photography, being a doula's assistant, etc. "Going along to help" is not the same thing as going through a formal, degreed apprenticeship program and having a more rigorous course of classes and field work to finish. However, if they are earning some of their own money by helping out, I think that's great!

To piggy back on my comments about the 4-minute presentation tape from Jill and Jana, the topic was supposedly "How to guard your heart" with respect to romantic relationships. When I hear that phrase, I imagine thoughtful reflection upon God's word, an examination of one's heart and feelings, having discussions in religious classes about morality as it relates to human sexuality, etc. But, in Duggar world, the process is: Ask Dad! There's no inner reflection or personal analysis - the adult girls ask their dad if this guy or that guy is OK (because, you know, he is a headship who can discern such things due to his holiness...much like Josh proclaimed that Rick Santorum had the right relationship with Jesus because somehow Josh can be in Rick's heart). I think you might typically have some discussions with your parents AFTER meeting someone and developing some sort of relationship with that person - but ultimately, the relationship decision should be between the two people involved.

Kate said...

I read the parentables piece, did anyone else notice it's all in past tense? I know she technically doesn't have a baby at the moment but I got the impression that Michelle thought her baby days are over?

Could it be true?

Nancy said...

Becoming a doula or a photog are "appproved" Gothard "professions" for unmarried young women. Gothard U actually offers online courses in the latter and doula basics. IIRC, they also set up girls like Jill with an "appropriate" teacher.

Someone actually did the research on Jill's "teacher" and she fits the bill. And of course, Jinger can't do weddings on her own; she still needs to be chaperoned, by a like-minded "friend" in the case of the wedding she did Memorial Day weekend (she was at the homeschool conference, having done the wedding the prior weekend). It was Jessa who was left at home.

imaamy said...

On instagram there is a photo captioned, "Playing knockouts" with a lot of young people on the sport court. Two young women are wearing what the Duggars would think of as revealing skirts/dresses and one of the young men has knee-length shorts. Wonder what group they were with?

Stephanie said...

She used the word "tummy" in Jubilee's infamouse goodbye letter. It made me sick back in December. Baby talk and baby voice.

rudy tecat said...

Jill and Jana don't seem to be very understanding and kind to the men they mention in the first 4 minutes of their talk! A real Christian wouldn't talk about others like that. Please talk about yourselves, if you care to, but don't call other people "weird".

Zebracrossing said...

Beth Anne said...."but all I could think was how dangerous it is that Jim Bob and Michelle have put their children out there for public "consumption" and now have men in jail sending them love notes." This is so true. JonBenet Ramsey's parents said they wish they had never had their daughter out in the public eye...making her a target. How MUCH more are these Duggar children in the public eye. Do they have security guards? Might be something to think about.


Also, how many people in NW Arkansas actually use a mid-wife? Are these for homebirths or is there an actualy birthing center there?

tulip said...

Just saw a clip of the first special. When being questioned about all the kids, Jim Bob states he's always left it up to Michelle. Now that I actually heard that on its own apart from the whole episode, I realize we've heard him say that many times throughout the years on different episodes. My immediate thought was...I thought they left it up to God!-so, which is it? God or Michelle? Interesting he would even say he would leave it up to Michelle, when in the same episode, they ALSO said they leave their number of children up to God.

RJWife said...

Question if anyone knows?!: are they still doing the Bates show?! I haven't heard or seen anything about it at all recently! (or at least in my area) Also, has anyone else noticed the extreme lack of Duggar commercials, reruns, previews (I really haven't seen any except around a five second segment during a commercial with all the TLC shows commercials for summertime. Really makes me wonder if they are trying to end this, or make it the last season. Hope everyone has a Happy Fathers Day weekend!

Alberta Rose said...

Why is it the women's responsibility not to turn a man on? Shouldn't they learn self control?

It's not. Gothard males are also told to do self control. It's laid out at Gothard's website, under the courtship heading: Does the young man have moral purity and victory over lust? Does the young man realize that in marriage he must give control of his body to his wife?

tulip said...

Josh posts a pic playing basketball-and it was just confirmed to me how utterly ridiculous those girls look on the court in their skirts and dress shoes. There's just got to be a time girls should wear pants or (long shorts)...bermudas?, capris? Both good choices-well, okay, heaven forbid-I guess a pair of bermudas would show one's knees. But as someone commented next to the pic, the back of a girl's knees can be seen below her skirt-and how defrauding! LOL.

Seriously? said...

re: "How to guard your heart" with respect to romantic relationships"

********************************

Maybe it's more important to approach loving relationships WITHOUT WORRYING about 'guarding your heart'. Maybe it's less selfish to, as much as humanly possible, OPEN one's heart to others, rather than 'guarding' your own. Isn't that what Jesus taught and lived?

The Duggar offspring are have alot in common with pet parrots: from all evidence to date, they are capable only of mindless repetition of meaningless word strings. Not alot of thought going on there.

A rote life filled with constant 'guarding' of one's heart: such a waste.

But I don't expect the Duggars to be able to even begin to comprehend this sad reality of theirs.

ImaFam said...

I can't believe I just wasted so much time listening/watching the Hearts at Home full speech. When they walk out they say how there are so may women, young mothers and daughters that will be future mothers there. It was presented as if Michelle was going to be giving a talk about motherhood. They instead stood there and talked and talked and talked about how they met and bla, bla, bla. Come on as if this is news! Same party lines about contraception being bad, and the baggage Michelle had as a teenager. JimBob didn't date in high school because he was too busy praying that God send him a wife. Therefore I guess what ever little baggage he harbors is nothing in comparison to Michelle, given she had a "boyfriend". Okay I'll stop there, I'll just get mean if I go on.

Miggy said...

Is it God or Michelle? We all know it is Michelle. It was Michelle who had the miscarriage and who constantly talks about how she caused it. Michelle is the one who 'needs' to be pregnant.

Jim Bob obviously adores his wife. If she said 'No more, I don't want to die.' I really do think he would listen. Unfortunately, Michelle will never say no.

Alberta Rose said...

A rote life filled with constant 'guarding' of one's heart: such a waste.

As victims of affairs in our prior relationships, both my husband and I teach our son the importance of guarding your heart and encourage our son to choose a woman who has been raised the smae ways. Sseeing a family on TV who models what the Bible and his parents say helps back us us.

If you haven't experienced that hurt and heartache, it would probably seem like a waste to teach your chhild to guard their heart. For those of us who have experienced that, whether first hand or as a child seeing it done to a parent, the Duggars are a blessing.

MandySue said...

Well Josh hasn't put up any food pictures on his Instagram in several days....He must not be eating or he heard the cries of the people and stopped.

Jen said...

I guess I need clarification on what "guarding your heart" is?

Guarded heart such as in "He has a guarded heart." meaning not having a trusting heart or having a fearful heart. But then affairs don't seem to fit in with that definition. One could have a very open unguarded heart and never have an affair.

Does the Duggar definition differ from the the world definition?

Beth Anne said...

Re: "If you haven't experienced that hurt and heartache, it would probably seem like a waste to teach your chhild to guard their heart. For those of us who have experienced that, whether first hand or as a child seeing it done to a parent, the Duggars are a blessing."

I don't think there's a parent in the world who doesn't want to protect their children from heartache. We feel our children's pain so deeply. However, I think you are maybe misunderstanding what others are commenting on. I think everyone on this blog feels it's important to have ongoing discussions with your children about the relationships they have with members of the opposite sex. Sharing with them God's word about marriage, sexual purity, etc. is a loving, caring thing to do. However, these children are now becoming adults, and it is evident that they do NOT take what they've been taught, reflect upon and analyze their situation in light of what they've learned, or try to dig deep into themselves to find their true feelings.

Rather, they simply use their parents as the "filter," as if Jim Bob and Michelle had all the insight and wisdom needed to discern whether or not a particular person is an appropriate romantic "match" for their children. To truly help their adult children, they need to trust that they can be discerning on their own. And, yes, the Duggar girls and boys may sometimes make mistakes of the heart, but isn't that how you learn and grow? Only be figuring out what YOU want or need in a relationship can YOU find your "right match."

Beth Anne said...

Also, I had another point to make about the whole issue of guarding one's heart. I think this can be taken to the extreme, where you shut out people who do not comply with a pre-conceived or, in the Duggars' case, a mandated notion of what type of person is an acceptable "courter." Instead of opening their hearts to people who do not have an ATI training/education, do not homeschool, who wear shorts or pants, and who dance when the mood strikes them, they have a very rigid idea of who is "good" and "OK" to interact with, whether it be in a friendship capacity or romantic one. I think back to all the references to "wolves" and to Jim Bob frantically running out into the water during their overseas trip to "save" his adult daughters from the innocent, polite young man striking up conversation.

The classic example actually comes from the Bates, where Erin was horrified about having to sit next to a green-haired person in music class. That green-haired person is loved by God, and if Erin could look past the "cover" and open her heart, she might find that that person is kind, loving, and could have potentially been a wonderful friend. The Duggars, Bates, etc., are the very epitome of judging a book by its cover, and there's virtually no chance of those girls finding out for themselves that someone who does not fit their dad's mold of who is acceptable.

RJWife said...

My question is, Are these Gothard U courses approved or accepted at all as a real secondary education, or a course that would qualify them to do that particular job, and/or career, at a real, non-Gothard employment?! I really hope, especially the girls are able to get some more education and/or employment of sometype outside the home, particularly as it is starting to seem to me as if the Duggar Show and Gravy Train may be coming to an end soon, and since we know Mom and Dad have likley spent all that money that all the kids helped earn and deserve there share of, that either the money is gone or spoken for, or they have no chance getting any.

Betty said...

The Duggar guarding the heart seems a lot more of a control issue of not allowing the young people to even get to know anyone of the opposite sex unless marriage is contemplated. To me that has absoluting nothing to do with not keeping one's wedding vows.

tulip said...

I see Anna posted pics of Michael's Bday (cake, etc.), and then a pic of a vase of roses without comment. Wondering if they're from Josh in honor of Michael's birth...Jim Bob taught the kids they should always first and foremost thank their mom on their birthday, since she risks her life for them to be there. Guess Josh is thanking Anna since Michael isn't old enough?

Wampascat said...

Oh dear, let me get this straight. They can control their emotions, in order to guard their heart,right? But the girls must keep covered because lust cannot be controlled? My head hurts trying to understand Duggar logic. But, I guess Duggar logic is an oxymoron.

imaamy said...

I thought Josh wasn't putting pics on instagram because they were so busy filming Michael's birthday!

rudy tecat said...

Did you all see Josh's photo of himself working out at the gymn? It was just before the photo of the fried mac 'n' cheese ball appetizers.

tulip said...

Yes, the pic "working out"-I like how someone commented he was wearing a polo and pants, only a Duggar, no offense. Lol. Josh (actually) responded: spur of the moment, twice in a week! Please. Another commented he looked great. Again, please-no he doesn't look great. Of course this "working out" picture is between a photo of a restaurant, and the mac n cheese meatballs it serves-which I'm sure he ate. No recent pics of Anna at all-not even a snapshot from Michael's Bday...until I see another (and not just her face sitting in a booth on date night), I'll assume they're hiding something for a big reveal-got $$$?

tulip said...

Whoa! Just as I submitted my last comment, forgot I hadn't visited Amy's Instagram-pic of "triple date": Anna in full side profile...Preggers Indeed!!! (I really don't see how anyone could say otherwise after THIS pic, am I right?)

tulip said...

Sorry...just couldn't resist another comment: Josh looks super hefty in that pic, and you can only see his face! (so much for the "workout"). Amy commented her own arms look huge (they do look big, looks like she's gaining weight-but SO RUDE to say when standing in between two women whose arms are bigger than hers!, and both look pudgy overall) Amy is indeed a Duggar (aka Narcissist).

Okay said...

Can we put the whole "Anna is pregnant" thing to rest?! She just has a fat belly, urh, tummy!!! OKAY! Looking at the picture on Amy's instagram, Anna looks the same as she did months ago when everyone started speculating.
By the way, Amy is starting to "spread out" now that she is posting pictures of what she eats all of the time. She even comments herself that her arms look fat in that same picture. I think they ARE getting fat! When the arms are getting fat, so follows other parts, too.
Here's the url to the picture:
http://web.stagram.com/p/215062111795429569_8488471

Porcupine Pie said...

Okay, I agree.....I've been saying this whole time she's pregnant, but wow...... She looked the same 4 months ago! I guess that's what happens when you constantly eat out. Maybe in a few years they'll have a show called 600 lbs. and Counting. I think they're just going hog-wild with food because they are in control of it now. They were both thin when they lived with Mommy and Daddy.

tulip said...

Oh wow, okay, maybe I feel like I'm trying to be too nice-Anna possibly being pregnant would be an excuse for that tummy, but maybe I'll go along with the others and assume she's just got a belly and major flab that she desperately needs to shed. Her face looks puffed and arms look big. At any rate, that is a bad picture-all 3 girls look like they just put on another 10 pounds. Too bad Amy posted it like it was some great pic for all to see-I would have pressed the delete button faster then Josh can say, "OK then, let's eat"

Hananh said...

The gym looks like he was at house using his dads dumbbells and sitting on a chair backwards.

Sharla said...

Dear Okay, speculation is one of the primary features here at DWoP. If you find a topic boring, you are always free to skip it when it comes up. I think the Duggars have intentionally fueled this one.

imaamy said...

It looks like Amy picked up on Josh's habit of always ending with at least one exclamation point when posting on instagram.

ImaFan said...

The latest picture of Amy's instagram makes me laugh. I can't help but think the Duggar girls are hoarse from screaming NIKE! ,every time Amy may be around her boy cousins. I love that Amy was aloud to be her own person regardless of her extended family's views of the world. I think it is hysterical that they think that hugging, kissing and being affectionate in a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, looks just like married couples. According to them"They can't tell who is married and who is not." This is what the 4 older sisters say in their seminar.

Linda Bernhardt said...

I have watched the Duggars and the Bates on television, and although I do not agree with everything they do, I still found the shows to be heartwarming and uplifting. I was even looking forward to the Bates new show. But then I read some of the comments on this blog about the relationship of Zach Bates and Sarah (from Southern Raised music group). Some comments said that they had broken up and the Bates were ignoring questions about it. Well, I went on the Bates site and posted three different times asking if Zach and Sarah's wedding was going to be featured on TLC. All three of my posts were removed. I did not make any comments at all; I just asked if the wedding was going to be on TLC. Based on their conduct, I can say that I am very disgusted and I will not watch their new show. They seem like hypocrites to me. Part of being a Christian is being honest. If they broke up, there is nothing wrong with this. These two did not sleep together or even kiss each other during courtship, so why try to hide it if they broke up. I find this behavior sneaky and sleazy and will not watch the new show.

mom in texas said...

Linda said:Well, I went on the Bates site and posted three different times asking if Zach and Sarah's wedding was going to be featured on TLC. All three of my posts were removed.
___________________________________

Well now that's peculiar. I used to read the Bates blog and updates often but hadn't since they announced the upcoming TLC show. But I did check the site today out of curiosity and found it odd that no mention of Zach or Sarah or their courtship or impending wedding was mentioned. That is extremely rude for them to delete your comments instead of just replying to the questions. Maybe they are keeping all information such a guarded secret because it is being filmed for TLC? Who knows but if the courtship failed then it wouldn't be a first and the Bates need to get over themselves.

Alberta Rose said...

Rather, they simply use their parents as the "filter," as if Jim Bob and Michelle had all the insight and wisdom needed to discern whether or not a particular person is an appropriate romantic "match" for their children. To truly help their adult children, they need to trust that they can be discerning on their own. And, yes, the Duggar girls and boys may sometimes make mistakes of the heart, but isn't that how you learn and grow? Only be figuring out what YOU want or need in a relationship can YOU find your "right match."

Given that both our parents questioned our judgement regarding the people who eventually cheated on each of us, I'd say that listening to parental advice regardless of age is a wise idea.

Stephanie said...

I found it comedic that Zac Bates put on a suit and tie and suited buckets and then actually CRIED tears because a girl said she would court him. I was embarassed for him. I didn't think it was cute or sweet. He is a grown man. They even denied themselves the finger sex that Josh and Anna performed on camera.

But the worst was Sarahs dad saying "the day you were born I prayed that God would keep you pure for your future husband" that made me angry and I won't let that go.

I said to my husband "when our daughter was born what did we pray for? Health, education, college, a long happy life" her sex life never entered our minds. Creepiod sex obsessed religous daddy IMO

sandi said...

I would venture to say the Bates' refusal to comment on Zach and Sarah's courtship probably has something to do with the contract they signed with TLC.So it sounds to me like the courtship is still on,IMO.

Beth Anne said...

Re: "Given that both our parents questioned our judgement regarding the people who eventually cheated on each of us, I'd say that listening to parental advice regardless of age is a wise idea."

It's not a black-or-white issue, where you either listen 100% to and heed your parent's advice or you don't at all...what I was saying is that the Duggars seem to advocate this idea of total dependence on Jim Bob's "wisdom" instead of encouraging the adult offspring to evaluate their romantic possibilities from various angles, dig deep into their own hearts, and, yes, listen to input from others. But, ultimately, the adult Duggars should have the opportunity to form their own friendships and romantic relationships based on with whom they "click." Such relationships might not always be perfect, but at least they were forged by the children themselves.

londonbridges said...

I agree that parental advice and opinions are valuable in our lives. However, the choice of a life's partner need to be decided by the two individuals involved. It is my belief that JimBob and Michelle do not have the right to make those choices. JMHO.

summer11 said...

Does anyone have any ideas about how much the Duggars make per episode, or do you know where to find that information?

Stephanie said...

Zac sweated bullets. Sorry I am typing on my cell phone. Sorry about the hand holding sex comment to. Someone called it something funny and I forgot what they said. But the Josh and Anna hand sex was gross.

Patrice said...

"I'd say that listening to parental advice regardless of age is a wise idea."

I disagree on that one. No one can determine how another's marriage is going to turn out. Unless the parents have some insider info or some magical ESP powers, they know no more than anyone else who is going to remain faithful and who is going to cheat. Taking into consideration one's parents' or friends' opinions is fine, but no one can pick a mate for someone else. It just doesn't work that way. I've seem some people get together that I thought wouldn't last six months, and they are still together 30 years later. And I've seem some "happily-ever-after" marriages that didn't last for more than a couple of years. I believe the Duggars and other Gothardites are doing their children a huge disservice by making them wait til Daddy picks their husbands for them. There could be a whole pack of nice young men around the corner, in the next town, at the local college, working in an office or hospital where a Duggar could potentially work. But how will they know if they are never allowed to even leave the house, find their own career and life, or even talk to a guy, much less meet him for dinner or another appropriate date? It turns my stomach to think of the waste of these young ladies' social and emotional lives.
"Daddy" could pick a mate for them who turns out to be a creep, a wife-beater, a sloth....and they will be stuck with him cuz Gothard says so. On the other hand, they could meet their own man, trust their own judgement, and live happily ever after. I do hope their is a chance of that for all of them.

Patrice said...

In the above post I meant "seen", not "seem". Did it twice! It must be Monday.

Alberta Rose said...

It's not a black-or-white issue, where you either listen 100% to and heed your parent's advice or you don't at all...what I was saying is that the Duggars seem to advocate this idea of total dependence on Jim Bob's "wisdom" instead of encouraging the adult offspring to evaluate their romantic possibilities from various angles, dig deep into their own hearts, and, yes, listen to input from others. But, ultimately, the adult Duggars should have the opportunity to form their own friendships and romantic relationships based on with whom they "click." Such relationships might not always be perfect, but at least they were forged by the children themselves.

They do. Again, I checked Gothard's website, about courtship. It clearly states: Also, if the son or daughter has been called by God to more years of single service, an appeal should be made to their parents for their blessing. In any case, the parents cannot force a marriage, because the individual has the final say.

Patrice said...

" I was embarassed for him. I didn't think it was cute or sweet. He is a grown man"
ITA. I was embarrassed for him too. I think his whole inability to even talk to Sarah and ask her to "court" is the direct result of being treated like an infant by his parents. The Duggars, Bateses, etc.-none have been able to attend school,work outside the home, go on social functions with their peers (unless Gothard approved and chaperoned), or meet anyone of the opposite sex-(most likely they say "opposite gender"). As a result, Zach's actions were much like that of a sheltered five year old on his first day of kindergarten-no comprehension of how to get along with others who aren't his siblings; no mom and dad to tell him how to act and hold his hand. That really was truly embarrassing. If the courtship has broken up, it is no wonder. First of all, the social awkwardness, secondly, living hundreds of miles apart, thirdly, having all phone calls and texts screened by the parents, and fourth, needing chaperones to date, even though they are full-grown adults...it's no wonder any Gothardite relationship succeeds. Poor Zach. If any Duggar ever escapes, I hope they grab Zach and Michaela Bates too- those two could use some lessons in being social. Princess Erin is too far above the green-haired masses to ever escape the lifestyle, but there has to be some hope for the others.

Seriously? said...

re: 'guarding your heart':

It's a misconception to assume that those of us who aspire to live with an OPEN heart have been spared the pain of being betrayed and disappointed by loved ones.

Quite the contrary.

Pain is part of life. Seems to me that often the most painful life difficulties are the best life teachers, as many lessons are often embedded within the living of life openly and fully.

So we suffer heartache from time to time, so what? Much can be learned from experiencing pain, including forgiveness and empathy towards others.

Having a broken heart isn't the worst thing in life.

Purposely living life with a 'guarded' and closed heart is far worse.

The Duggars are too simple minded to GET this. Sad for them and their kids.

Seriously? said...

"I found it comedic that Zac Bates put on a suit and tie and suited buckets and then actually CRIED tears because a girl said she would court him. I was embarassed for him. I didn't think it was cute or sweet. He is a grown man."

AGREED! This level of immaturity is neither normal nor desirable from a grown man. How can a man of this immaturity possibly be ready to be a husband and father? He remains a child himself.

Sad to think this guy epitomizes the outcome of 'good' parenting. Absolutely to the contrary IMO.

Seriously? said...

"...using his dads dumbbells..."

Oh, lordie, this is too easy - Duggars and dumbbells.... Subract the "and" and replace it with "equal" IMO.

tulip said...

It's not the first time someone has said they posted a question about Zach & Sarah to The Bates and was deleted. This is just plain rude. It would be one thing if the courtship was kept a private matter, but they're the ones that chose to broadcast the whole event to the entire country-it's common sense, especially after how much time has gone by, that people are interested in knowing how things are going. I would even understand if they replied with a simple "Zach & Sarah (or just Zach) are choosing to keep things private at this time", or something. They are the ones who said they weren't interested in a show, but now are filming one and they're the ones that chose to film the courtship-they don't have an excuse to ignore people. Even their beloved mentors The Duggars address questions & comments (even if in a roundabout way avoiding what was really being asked). Hmmm...though Josh & Anna HAVE ignored comments about another pregnancy-guess like Kate G. they think they're just too good for their fans now (only as long as the cash keeps coming).

Hannah said...

One of the Duggars made a fathers day card(I can`t tell who) its in Josh`s instargram. The letters looked to be written by Jackson

Betty said...

"Courtship" Gothard style is not innocuous in my opinion. Reading some stories of people's "courtship" is scary for women. Many times the young man sees a young lady and does research on her and then talks to her father about courtship before ever even speaking to her. I can't see anyway that is right or fair to the women involved in this day or time.

tulip said...

It really is annoying that Josh is feeling the need to emphasize this health kick he's started-posting pics of carrot juice and broccoli, as well as "working out" with his dumbbells in a polo and khakis, all the while making sure to use the word "healthy" in all his comments. Let's see how long it takes before he posts a pic of date night at Braums with another super-sized sundae. I think last time we saw "healthy" homemade food photos, it took about 3 days.

tulip said...

Well, I guess I was mistaken-Josh was not working out in khakis, but rather what looks like black dress pants. Anna looks to be still carrying around that hot pink, fabric Coach purse Josh bought her at the outlet while on the campaign trail-must be a prized possession for a Duggar.

ImaFan said...

Re: Courtship

So from what Betty is saying, I gather that a lot of the courting rituals first involve a bit of stalker like behavior on the man-child's part. Yikes! I'd never want that for myself let alone my daughter. It would be the equivalent of some random guy checking up on her Facebook page as well as her friends, then somehow finding me or my husband and asking to date her. When did we or she herself ever get a chance to investigate this man/boy? Creepy that this is standard practice. Yes, I understand these people are all of like minds, but really there is more underlaying there, as we have all seen in Josh's instagram pics. Once they fly the coop, their behavior changes as if they are finally free.

Beth Anne said...

Re:
"They do (chose their mate). Again, I checked Gothard's website, about courtship....the parents cannot force a marriage, because the individual has the final say."

This may be true in the end, that after a parent--approved courting session, both parties can either agree to marry or not. However, this does not account for all the parental "screening" that takes place in the beginning. The point that several of us have made is that the adult Duggar and Bates children are encouraged if not outright mandated to have their parents screen potential suitors...and it is my opinion that JimBob, Michelle, Gil, and Kelly judge the book by its cover. If a young man or women does not fit their pre-conceived notions of what a suitable mate should be, based on what they wear, are they ATI "trained," etc., that person has no chance of ever meeting or interacting with an adult Duggar or Bates offspring.

So, in effect, the adult Duggar/Bates children's "choices" are limited to what their parents approve of, which may or may not be a truly good match for their children.

Lynette said...

What episode was the Zach Bates suit sweating featured in? I'd like to see that one.

imaamy said...

The Father's Day card I saw was signed, "Jennifer."

elaine said...

RE: I found it comedic that Zac Bates put on a suit and tie and suited buckets and then actually CRIED tears because a girl said she would court him. I was embarassed for him. I didn't think it was cute or sweet. He is a grown man. They even denied themselves the finger sex that Josh and Anna performed on camera.

OH MY GOSH. Fully agreed! I was completely embarrassed for him too, I think I actually turned my head from the TV because it was so awkward.
"...finger sex" -- hilarious :)
Can someone clarify: did Josh and Anna wait to hold hands until they were engaged? Or were they already at that base when they were courting? Thanks, I can't remember.

tulip said...

Wasn't Zach's courting proposal in the Bates special? I'm not sure, but all I remember is Zach sitting on his bed (in a Duggar-style shared bedroom) nervously talking about Sarah and fumbling around. Then, as Zach was arriving, Sarah's sisters were all giggling and saying "here he comes, hee, hee", like little girls (they are older). It seemed like such a huge production, with both dressed up (Zach in a suit) and Zach bringing Sarah roses and a cheesecake, which Zach announced he got from "Wallyworld" (aka Walmart)-again, Duggar-style. I find it so funny that the Gothard groups treat these courtships proposals like engagements. And then sadly, the actual engagement proposals seem so awkward-as we saw when Josh proposed to Anna, surprising her on her birthday with balloons and her parents on-site. Anna and her mom were wearing identical pink shirts. Anna referred to him as "Joshua".

Patrice said...

What episode was the Zach Bates suit sweating featured in? I'd like to see that one.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can't find it right now but it was also part of the most recent Nightline special, if you can track that down.

Andrea said...

Here's some PR material from the Duggar's as it appears on the Alpha Omega Publications website:

http://www.aophomeschooling.com/blog/homeschool-view/duggar-family-on-homeschool-organization/


Really more of the same. Does Michelle Duggar actually expect us to believe she: "and the older children study science, history, law, or medicine around the table from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m." I shudder to think about the quality of the education.

Andrea said...

Also, the article mentions a house rule of: "Jesus first, Others second, and yourself last." Apologies if this has been asked and answered in the past, but what exactly does this mean? Seriously, Jesus isn't walking around asking you to do anything for him. Is she like: "Hold on, child number 19, I'm praying to Jesus, your dirty diaper can wait." These people are seriously cracked!!

Andrea said...

One final comment of the day. To Tulip, I think the photo late yesterday evening of the Braum's sign is irrefutable evidence that Josh is reading this blog.

Hi Josh: Do you know what irrefutable means? Today’s English lesson: Irrefutable is an adjective meaning impossible to refute or disprove.

Seriously? said...

"the older children study science, history, law, or medicine around the table"

All evidence to the contrary.

Guess the Duggars consider things like the creation museum 'science'.

Sad.

tulip said...

The pic of the Braums sign is too funny-I notice his #healthierchoices is missing from that one! Now that the nutritious food photos have run their course, it's back to posting pictures to try and prove to people he's working-although I don't really consider sitting in front of a computer surfing around, supposedly looking for a vehicle for a customer, actual work. Just like Josh to send his "helpers" out to weather the lot, while he sits in the back office clicking around websites.

I haven't seen a picture of Jim Bob in a while, so when I saw him posing with Michael for his first Bday, I was surprised at how slim and young he appeared-not necessarily complimenting him, but it made me realize, after seeing Josh all the time in pics, how unhealthy, overweight and aged he looks. He's not even 25!

Jen said...

Here is Josh and Anna's timeline (compiled from their website)

2006
Josh and Anna met at ATI conference at the concession stand.
Josh thought she was the one and asked for counsel from his father.

A few weeks later the Keller Family came to visit the Duggar family for vacation and they all got to know each other

Anna said, “While at the Duggars home, I noticed Joshua had many of the things I desired in a future partner. I began to commit those desires to the Lord, and reaffirmed my commitment to wait on Him to lead through my parents in that area. After all, my sisters & I were friends with the Duggar girls and my brothers were friends with the Duggar boys… that was the way things were supposed to be! “

2007
The families met up again at the ATI conference

After the conference Josh began working in earnest on his business and gettting a house.

Mr. Keller ask Anna if there were any boys she was feeling God leading her towards. She answered Josh.

Dec 2007
Keller family invited Josh to Florida to help with with an Anger Resolution Seminar at the prison. While there Josh asked for permission to court Anna.

June 2008

Josh purposes.

Sept 2008

Anna and Josh are married

Rudy Tecat said...

Season 8, Episode 7 "38 kids and counting" shows the Bates boy asking the girl to court.

tulip said...

Last thing I had time to check today...yes, the 38 kids and counting is the courtship episode. Also the episode with the infamous "thin horses", and where one of the Bates boys opens the door and knocks Josie in the head causing her to fall backwards and hit her head, yet again, on the tile floor. Zach in a suit holding roses and sweating profusely having to carry around a full-size washcloth to wipe his brow. Add in Jim Bob bragging about their "Mother's Day gift" to Kelly (adding on and remodeling the whole house)-Jim Bob says he thought it would only take a weekend, but actually ended up taking about a year. Right after Jim Bob's talking head, Clark Wilson is pictured "helping out", although I don't think Jim Bob or Gil bothered to acknowledge Clark.

Wampascat said...

I saw that episode where Zach made a fool of himself. It's sad and a little appalling to me that a guy that age is so nervous around a female (that is not a relative) that he's actually sobbing while asking her to court. If that scene is not an argument for the damage these crazy asses are doing to their children, I don't know what is.

Clara B. from Texas said...

I was curious about all of this Zach and Sarah break-up talk so I checked out both of the Bates and Southern Raised wesites. I had been a huge fan but I grew wary of these families after awhile and stopped following their websites. Let me tell you, I was stunned to see their websites after not looking at them for so long. Where there had been countless pictures of Zach and Sarah, now the pictures are all gone and there has been no ring on Sarah's finger for some time now. I copied what one lady who posted on this blog did, and I too left a comment on the Bates website asking when the wedding was taking place. They removed my question too!

Now I know why I started getting a bad feeling about these people. They seem kind of dishonest many times. I don't think they are behaving like Christians at all. They are the ones who used the courtship to make money and now when people ask about it, they remove the posts? Why? The kids did nothing wrong. If you are a true honest Christian you either say "the courtship did not work out" or "you have to tune in to the show to find out because we don't want to spoil the surprise". Shame on them giving Christians a bad name.

zebracrossing said...

I think the family homeschool schedule is something of the past. Or maybe this is their goal. I doubt while they are filming that this schedule is followed. I am hoping they are getting a lot of school done before the taping starts again...but then again...it is summer so that is doubtful. I just wonder how different the Duggars' lives would be if they had never been on a t.v. series. I think they really do mean well... Have good motives for what they do in their lives...but it just comes across as ridiculous as a t.v. show. I hate thinking about all the criticism they receive from people nitpiking their lives.... BUT it is all fair since they have chosen to put their lives out there. I can remember talking about what so and so did on a fictional show like LOST....talking out why and where and who...but talking FICTION. It is sad that this is REAL LIFE for these children...and to think...all the world knows of it. Hope this is their last season and things can be some what normal for these children...away from the camera. I guess there will always be Good Morning America updates, eh?

Alberta Rose said...

However, I think you are maybe misunderstanding what others are commenting on. I

That about sums up why the Duggars think the way they do. Everyone they hang with are like-minded. When they share what's going on, those who aren't like minded can misunderstand.

tulip said...

I think it's probably rare to see the kids gathered around the table for homeschooling, like they showed us in the very first specials. Now they do pretty much everything on computers, even the little kids. If the youngest ones still do workbooks for writing letters or coloring, I bet that's all supervised by one of the older girls, not Michelle. In one of the more recent episodes, when they were attempting to show Michelle "homeschooling" (aka damage control), she was instructing one of the younger boys (Jackson?) to go find his wisdom book so they could get started (this while he was goofing around in the kitchen, not really listening to her). When he finally went upstairs (after repeated requests to do so) to try and find his book, he started rifling around in a jam-packed, obviously disorganized file cabinet drawer, looking like he had no idea what he was looking for.

They did still use some computers for homeschooling way back when, as they showed in the first specials those older model, outdated workstations, but now that TLC provides their paychecks, they've got the whole house outfitted with everything and more for all the Gothard-approved curriculum that does all the work for them.

Betty said...

Oh I don't think misunderstanding the Duggars is the problem for me AT ALL. I have relatives and neighbors who are fundy and I know what they tell me and understand their lifestyle very, very well. However, the Duggars are not simply fundy, they are followers of Gothard and it is not the same thing. Gothard is a bit of a cult leader, making up his own theology, spouting nonsense about his "spiritual insights," and leading people down a dead-end patriarchal trail to nowhere.

Many, many Baptist (his own denomination) theologians and pastors have ripped Gothard's less than Biblical "theology" apart. It isn't lack of understanding of what the Duggars say or do, it's basic disagreement with following the teachings of the man Gothard blindly and without using their God-given brains. They are depriving their children of educations and real lives all to bend their knee to King Gothard and that surely is not Biblical.

Nancy said...

That about sums up why the Duggars think the way they do. Everyone they hang with are like-minded. When they share what's going on, those who aren't like minded can misunderstand.

===================================

Since the Duggars and their ilk essentially belong to a cult, they are consciously hiding parts of their lives that have been made public on other family reality TV shows. That type of cognitive dissonance on their parts is the main bone of contention I see on Duggar sites; they have chosen to shield their children, not just from the experiences of "regular" kids/teens, but from ANY life experience that might cause them to think independently and as a result, live amongst the wolves as a CHOICE.

These kids have no choices except those Gothard approves of, and don't let the IBLP courtship blurb on Gothard's site fool you; I've seen the man personally speak on this and how the Duggars and Bateses have handled the courtships of their oldest sons conforms to other Gothard courtships I've read about, like Priscilla Keller. ie: Boy has interest in girl, boy essentially "applies" to girl's father for permission to court (merely "get to know better") the daughter with a fair expectation of an engagement (when hand holding may ore may not be permitted...that's up to the couple and the families).

However, even in this model of "guarding one's heart," it's virtually impossible not to gain some sort of feeling, positive or negative, for a potential (and here it is still "potential") partner. Plenty of courtships dissolve at this stage and I've read plenty of blogs from girls whose hearts WERE broken. This is the main reason Gothard advocates short courtships (about 6 months) and even shorter engagements; for instance Josh and Anna had only seen each other a handful of times and communicated mainly by monitored phone, Skype and possibly text (not sure if the Kellers have cell phones...probably too dangerous).

It's no wonder so many of the children of ATI end up leaving; in that vein, I've recently heard via Suze Keller's google account that she's living in the metro ATL area and is...pregnant! She and her brother seem to have rebelled in the total opposite direction, while others remain conservative Christians but have to basically re-learn how to actually LIVE as a mainstream Christian. That is where Gothard controls and ruins lives. And this is why I feel for the children; one look at Josiah and Joy these days shows the misery of being different in a land of "like-mindedness,"

hawgfan said...

The post on this blog really great in pointing out the flaws of ATI and Gothardland without attacking. It is rather long but really shows the cult side of this scary world. I also realized how much of this Gothardspeak I have been exposed to as we have journeyed in homeschooling. A lot of it from the pulpit....

http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/06/letter-to-family-considering-joining.html

hawgfan said...

Here is another resource to learn about Quiverful/Gothard/Vision Forum/Duggar cult activity.

http://www.widewhite.org/2010/09/cult-of-quiverfull-ati-vision-forum/

Betty said...

http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/06/letter-to-family-considering-joining.html

That is an excellent letter and exposes a lot of the claims I've heard from people who managed to avoid being sucked in to IBLP/ATI/Vision Forum as well as some recent escapees.

Nancy said...

hawgfan, I've read the first blog before and have read the book. She expresses exactly what I was trying to put forth about the "survivors" of Gothard without actually being one myself.

That book really is a must for anyone who has an interest, whether it be spiritual or, as in my case, intellectual, regarding the dangers of Gothard's brand of "Christianity" and the harm of trying to achieve a standard he lays down in his 7 Basic Principles (I think that's what they're called) that are virtually impossible to attain; they basically have you chasing your own tail on this quest for perfection in the eyes of the Lord.

That's not the Christianity I was exposed to growing up, even in the most conservative of churches (Reformed).

Seriously? said...

"Jim Bob bragging about their "Mother's Day gift" to Kelly (adding on and remodeling the whole house)-Jim Bob says he thought it would only take a weekend, but actually ended up taking about a year."

***************************

Easy to see why the Duggars and other Gothardites diss working for others - in a REAL JOB world, if Jim Bob had projected 2-4 days for a project, but missed his timeline milestone by a whopping 361 days, ANY boss with a brain would be hard-pressed to keep that man on the payroll.

JimBob would never, ever make it in the real world, and, sadly, he's raising his kids to be proud of the same gaping inabilities.

mom in texas said...

The last few mornings TLC has aired the original Duggar specials (pre television series) and though I have viewed them before I watched again. It is so telling to see how much the family has changed. Not just in the way they dress but even things like how mannerable and controlled they used to be. I find myself wondering, what changed? Is it the time Jim Bob and Michelle have devoted to branding the family? Is because most of the parental obligations have been delegated to the older girls? Is it the money? The exposure? I can't put my finger on it but the Duggars seemed so genuine back then. Now they seem to be talking heads, promoting Gothard based philosophy so much so that they seem fake.

tulip said...

The "letter" was a very interesting read-several things stood out to me right away. The Gothard regime instructing to act in a way that "pleases the Lord". I've heard Michelle say that exact phrase so many times, and Anna as well. I remember them both using the phrase when specifically talking about why the girls wear (long) skirts. Also what was interesting was talking about collared shirts-in the earliest specials/episodes, they specifically pointed out their boys wear collared shirts, HOWEVER, I specifically remember Michelle saying it was because she just thought boys looked nicer in a collared shirt rather than t-shirt. Hmmm. The letter also mentioned how girls who wore more knee-length skirts instead of the longer variety, as well as more "modern" clothes, were frowned upon (unspoken of course). Wonder how Gothard feels about the Duggar girls new modern clothing choices, and what about Michelle's knee-length skirt? Yikes! Oh well, guess there's no worries about them paying their $600 annual membership fee...guess he'll let it slide.

sandi said...

I don't get the whole Gothard thing and the Duggars,either.Jim Bob has flat out said the bible is their manual for how to live their lives.Then what on earth do they need Gothard for?

sandi said...

here's verse Gothard and like-minded seem to have overlooked:

Praise him with tambourine and dancing; praise him with strings and flutes! Psalm 150:4 NLV

imaamy said...

Wow the carwash and post office. Josh really has nothing going on!

Sweetie Pie said...

Actually I feel rather sorry for the Duggar family. I think that they're a genuinely nice family trying to live for the Lord, but the Gothard/ATI poison is stealing the joy of their salvation. His rules are stricter that those of God and are unnecessary. The Duggar children are in bondage to their parents, and Michelle & JimBob are in bondage to Gothard. Jesus frees us from bondage. They could have such better freer happier lives living as regular Christians. They need to have more faith that God can guide them instead of looking to the teachings of another man to tell them what they can and can't do. I don't think that their extreme lifestyle is even pleasing to God as it puts more glorious on them than in him.

I hope that the children branch out think more for themselves. I like that Josh has made some choices different from his parents, and hope he does more. It would be good for his family to move away from the area. To have a new start on their own; find a good church; be in control of their own finances; trust themselves that they're adult enough to make their own decisions.

It is true that we see such a small window of their lives via the show. And perhaps things aren't as they appear, but from what I know of the Gothard teachings their lives are not their own.

Please sweet Duggar family wake up!

tulip said...

"Please sweet Duggar family wake up!"

I highly doubt the Duggars are even capable of changing-they have been following Gothard for over 20 years. Michelle has said many times that they enrolled in ATI long before Josh was even school-age, and said it in a way like it was the greatest discovery on earth.

Josh appears to some as if he's making a way of his own, but the only difference I really see is that he's all over social media (the rest of the family is not), and I simply attribute that to pure ego, not taking the road less traveled. He's still building his own business so he works for himself, instead of going to college and possibly having to work for someone else(eek!). He definitely shows his "role" as authority in his family, with Anna looking up to him like he's the all-knowing, best hubby ever spouting endless praises. Then there's homechurch, still traveling to Big Sandy, even though he's married & on his own with two kids not even close to school age, etc., etc. As far as I can see, Josh and Anna couldn't be more Jim Bob & Michelle's mini-me's.

tulip said...

Gee, can't wait to see what the Duggars have in store for the upcoming new season...Josh posts pics of the crew filming them bowling-so that means, so far we've seen the crew filming this bowling event, a birthday party, talking heads at Josh & Anna's and the ATI conference in Big Sandy (which, BTW, we'll probably get to see twice, since the Bates filmed that for their show as well). And TLC is still saying the show must go on? Sorry, but the only reason people will be tuning in to the premiere is to see whether or not Anna is pregnant, or if her & Josh will just be joining Weight Watchers, and whether or not Peter Query is courting one of the girls.

Seriously? said...

Oh, and another thing that would ensure Jim Bob's failure at a real job is their giggly reference to always being on 'Duggar time'. Yeah, try that in the real workforce and see how long your manager puts up with keeping you as an employee. JimBob and Michelle do a disservice to their kids by raising them to be so incapable of making it outside their cult and so oddly PROUD of it.

imaamy said...

I actually thought in the instagram pic of Anna bowling (from behind), she looked quite slim. Michelle's hair (also from behind) looked longer and "scragglier" than ever.

han said...

guess we see them bowling. Josh has pics up his site.

Patrice said...

Michelle's hair is totally gross,IMO. It is past the point of looking like anything that should be attached to a human head, and the girls are not much better. I don't believe there is anything in God's Word that says you must have long overgrown dried out straw on your head in order to be saved. Blech!

Nancy said...

Michelle bowling with Josh's family is more interaction than I've personally ever seen her have with her grandchildren. Obviously another reactionary "FU Internet!" scene taped byt TLC to prove that Michelle does have SOME sort of relationship with Mack and Mike.

Still not buying it until I see Michelle actually holding one of the kids, rather than kissing her husband (while Josh kissed Anna) over the elder's bassinet. One of the most disturbing pictures I've ever seen.

Nancy said...

Oh dear. Michelle has let the cat out of the bag about Gothard philosophy in her latest "Parentables." (haven't these come fast and furious lately? Interesting...

I don't think they've ever used the word "defraud" on the show, other than when JB and Michelle were on The View and they were watching back home. Someone screamed NIKE! and Joy ran to the set and covered up Elisabeth Hasselbeck's gams.

When asked why, Joy stumbled over the word, but couldn't define it.

http://parentables.howstuffworks.com/family-matters/michelle-duggar-modesty-and-bathing-suits.html

ImaFan said...

It is true, never really seen Michelle holding either grandchild. I would like to see this picture Nancy posted about, don't know where to find it though.

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