Free Discussion December 2010

Please use this for Duggar sightings, speculation, or general discussion. Note that this is Duggar discussion not other families, TV shows, or personal stories. Thank you! Sorry it is late!

154 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is it possible to meet the Duggars in person? Has anyone on here ever met them or know someone who met them?

Reality TV Junkie said...

"Is it possible to meet the Duggars in person? Has anyone on here ever met them or know someone who met them?"
-------------------------
My cousins' best friend (who lives in Arkansas), once saw a few of them shopping in a bulk store. It wasn't a formal greet, but more of a "Hi, nice to see you!" kind of thing. I heard they were very polite.

Joy said...

I buy my episodes from amazon and I noticed the recent special, the Duggars home video one isn't available because of "licensing agreements" Just a little FYI if anyone else was wondering about buying it on amazon.

Peace said...

December is a big birthday month for the Duggars.

Happy 1st Birthday Josie - 10
Happy 2nd Birthday Jordyn - 18
Happy 17th Birthday Jinger - 21
Happy 12th Birthday Jedidiah - 30
Happy 12th Birthday Jeremiah - 30

Anonymous said...

December is a big birthday month for the Duggars.
===========================

What happens every year in March? Is that the Duggars anniversary month?

Ally said...

"December is a big birthday month for the Duggars.

Happy 1st Birthday Josie - 10
Happy 2nd Birthday Jordyn - 18"
---------------------------------
I hope they celebrate BIG for Jordyn, since her last birthday (as far as we know from the show) was sort of downplayed due to Josie's birth just a week before.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if TLC plans to air a birthday special for Josie? If so when?

Allison said...

I bet they will, and I bet they will air it sometime in the New Year. I don't think they would air it too close to her actual birthday because of the holidays (low ratings) so I imagine if they do it, it'll be in the first couple weeks of January.

Anonymous said...

I would be really pressed to believe that Jim Bob would allow the Roloffs or the Gosslins to make more money than they are making.

If the show gets cancelled, it will be because of low ratings. TLC doesn't care about "family values" or anything remotely resembling that. It is money and money alone. Jim Bob drives the bus and probably gets reimbursed. He won't let TLC take advantage of him.

I, for one, (since it was brought up), think that the Rolloff family was a more believable one than the Duggars. They were not phony. What you saw was what they were. I believe that the parents encouraged each child to achieve in all their endeavors. They, at least knew each child's strengths and weaknesses. They appeared to be spiritual one. They didn't wear it like a label, but there was a belief there.

In my view the duggars are not a good example of what a family should be. I also think that Michelle is just a little too sweet to be wholesome. The constant kissing is just a little too contrived. I don't believe that any family behaves at they do all the time. They are, after all, human. I just think that those older girls must feel some resentment. I know someday they will look back and see what was stolen from them. Their young years were taken up raising their mother's children. I don't think there is anything wholesome about daughters being concerned about their mother's cycle. That seems to be all there is in their lives!!

Anonymous said...

The constant kissing is just a little too contrived.
===========================

Yes, it's annoying. One a recent episode (I think the one where the children did the filming), there is a shot where JimBob walks over to Michelle at the foot of the stairs (inside) and gives her a kiss. One of the older daughters happens to be walking by and says, sarcastically, "Lovely, just lovely." So yeah, at least some of the kids are over the lovey-dovey teenage smooching their parents do in front of everyone too.

Hey JimBob - a hug is sufficient and if you and Michelle were really modest, you wouldn't kiss in front of the cameras all the time.

iwantacelltower said...

found out some more info on the cell tower.

if your tower is just a small one, which small, is four users.

the owner was making.... 120,000 per year.

so..the duggars own a i would say middle size one. so lets low ball it, and say they have 8 users..

thats 240,000 per year from the tower.

thats still alot of money. for something that you dont have to do anything for.
besides the up keep around the tower, the owner is not resp. for repairs or anything like that.

a50/50fan said...

did a little searching on the duggars pay.
according to E channel,

Networks usually won't disclose the deals they make with individual families. But according to reality producer Terence Michael, the general rule of thumb is that reality-show families earn about 10 percent of a show's per-episode budget. So, if TLC budgets about $250,000 to $400,000 per episode—and Michael suspects it does—that would mean $25,000 to $40,000 per episode.


which if it was the higher amount of $40,000, you have to take off for taxes, Which would make it around 25,000.
so, say the actual amount the get to put in their bank after taxes, for 18 episodes. it would be 450,000 per year.

and with the house, and properties paid off. it can go to whatever they want it too.

Anonymous said...

e channel also said, the gosslins took in around 75,000 per episode.. before taxes.. .
so again this is added with out taking out for taxes, which is a little less than half.
so basically cut the money in half

so if u just had the 75,000 it comes out to 1,500,000 . that would be for 20 episodes.
and the gosslins had debt. and have

Anonymous said...

They won't celebrate "B I G" for Jordyn. She will have to take a back seat to Josie. It will be thus all their lives. That poor child is the forgotten one. Since it was mentioned on this blog, Jim Bob seems to be giving her more attention. I really feel for that little girl. When God sends a "Blessing", I'm sure he expects a lot more than food shelter and clothing from the parents.

Her first year of live was almost a blur. She is often seen wondering around alone. One thing I think she will develop is a spine and I think mommy and daddy will hear a lot from her. That is, of course, if mommy is still around.

Jen said...

Do we know if there will be a season 6? If so, do we know when it is due to start?

msrylee said...

Thanks for the great job you mods accomplish. I really appreciate it.

Anonymous said...

"and Jim Bob and his big toys which he bought at someone else's expense, loss and misery"

In their book, they talk about how upset they were because they realized that they profiting from someone else's misfortune.. selling cigarettes! So they quit selling cigarettes and were surprised when the convenience store business was not all they thought it would be. I think it's funny that Jim Bob does not see how buying a repossessed bus can apply to that same principle.

For the record.. I personally dont see a real moral issue with him buying the bus (or selling cigarettes). He got the bus for a good price.. good for him. But they are being a touch hypocritical (in my opinion) and that's what I have a moral problem with.

Anonymous said...

It's what always happens when greed overtakes common sense. Then a modest family begins giving birth on national television and selling out its soul.

I agree about poor little Jordyn, the lost child. She has no Jill caring for her, like Jennifer, so really seems both motherless and sister-motherless too. No child should have to raise herself at age 2!

Anonymous said...

Is it possible to meet the Duggars in person?
-------------

I would love to! I am sure they do not make personal appearances for individuals, but if they came to Alabama to speak, I would try to be there.

As snarky as a lot of people can be about them, when it boils down to it they are just fine. I work as a social worker, and now a days I am just really excited when people feed and bathe their children, much less give them attention. Well mannered, is a HUGE plus!

Did I miss something? When did the girls say they are watching their mom's cycle? What episode was that? That would seem like normal family culture for them! On another episode (maybe 17 and counting) they were all sure she was preggo before she was, pointing out her love of pickles.

Anonymous said...

it would be 450,000 per year.
----------------------------

That's a pretty healthy income, even with 19 children still at home. I sincerely doubt that the leased land for the cell phone tower brings in even 1/4 that amount per year. But if it does, then in my book, the Duggars are officially wealthy.

I truly hope that JimBob and Michelle take no more than 50% as their income, and then split the remaining 50% into 19 separate savings accounts for each remaining "child" at home. Those Duggar offspring work very hard and most certainly deserve to share in the wealth.

I'm curious: What if some years go by, and then one or more of the Duggar children make it public that they never got paid a cent for the show, and all the money was kept by JimBob and Michelle. Would you think that was fair?

Anonymous said...

Without knowing details, it is impossible to put an accurate figure on what the Duggars earn from their leased land for the cell phone tower. However, research would seem to indicate there is a wide range of monthly income: from $300 in more rural areas to perhaps as much as $3,000/month in a prime spot in a metropolitan area.

I would classify the Duggars area as more the rural side than metropolitan. I'm willing to believe they might even earn as much as $1,000 to $2,000 per month, or up to $24,000 per year. I'm having difficulty imagining that they earn nearly half a million per year for that cell phone tower alone.

hannah said...

I think the "cycle watching" was in the first or second show ever of 17 Kids and Contung". When they go to new york.

I do feel bad for her. I mean why not give her a bday show. They did for Mack, Jesse(or was that Jinger). Joy, James etc.

Sharla said...

Friendly note from the mods. Many of you may not know that we have some young teen readers. Please keep that in mind when composing comments. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

With regard to the payment for appearing on TV, I think it should be written into labour laws regarding reality shows and children. They all should have healthy bits of money put away for them. I think the older girls and boys should be given a salary now. They are not being paid as au pairs so they should be paid for their performances.

I would imagine that TLC writes one cheque and lets them do what they want.

It would be poetic justice if one of the children sues TLC for payment in the years that come.

It has happened before. Children have even sued their parents. That is not beyond the realm of possibility. All of these parents expose the lives of their children with no regard to how it is affecting them emotionally or psychologically. Some of these children do not know what life is like without a TV camera in their home and people who are not members of the family constantly around. They did not consent to any of this, nor were theyt even asked. They are working and some day somebody is going to have to pay.

msrylee said...

Jordyn and I share the same birth-date. I have also thought that she is the forgotten 'blessing', as noted in several episodes. JimBob seems to be giving her more attention now, but she is truly lacking a mother in her little life. I also think there won't be a big anything for her birthday. So sad.

Anonymous said...

Maybe if the producers read this blog, they might think it would be a good show and she will get the day she deserves. Her little face is so expressive. She looks all knowing. It was hilarious when Jim Bob was "baby sitting". It was obvious he didn't have a clue what he was doing. The looks she gave him were priceless.

She does seem to be independent, but isn't that sad at her little age.

If Michelle gets pregnant and does the same thing to Josie, I will not watch another episode and I hope most people will feel that it is just too much and just too irresponsible.

Anonymous said...

The company I work for leases out land for cell phone towers. Average rent is around $1000 per month per carrier. We are in a rural setting as well with a small population of under 5,000.

The cell phone tower rent is probably a nice addition to their income, but I doubt they are getting rich off of it.

Reality TV Junkie said...

About the income...if on the cheque it says "to Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar", then it's theirs they do not have to ration it to the kids. If it says "to Duggar family", then the money also belongs to the children. I'm almost positive that it is not addresed to the kids. So, if only Michelle and Jim Bob keep it, it's fine. Legal? Yes. Moral? No.

msrylee said...

I think that if the producers follow this blog, they just might make sure that Jordyn has a birthday celebration.

She appears to be independant, and that is a good thing, but what makes me so sad is the way she just wanders around the house, looking so lost. I'm sure the sister/moms try to do their best, but they are not her mother. If Michelle and/or JimBob follow this, I hope the message will sink in.

Anonymous said...

A lady at my job knows them. She said they really are nice people. They really do seem like good people IMHO. Jasmine in Little Rock

Anonymous said...

Reality TV Junkie - I agree with you re the wording on the checks to the Duggars. However, I was thinking that once the older kids turn 18, seems like TLC would have to get a new contract that includes the signature of the new adult. I may be mistaken because I only took one short course in contract law years ago, but I don't think a parent can sign a contract for their adult child.

However, I have this sneaking suspicion that even if the older "children" (any that are 18 and over) are receiving checks made payable to them as individuals, that they are expected to turn that money over to JimBob either to "defray expenses" or for "safe keeping."

I hope I'm wrong, but I bet I'm not.

Anonymous said...

If the kids ever get any money at all...the boys' money is probably being saved for their businesses that they are expected to start when they are 18. The girls' money is probably being saved to hand over to their future husbands, along with the "transfer of authority".
That would be even sadder.

Anonymous said...

I'm sure that those who meet the Duggars will say they are nice people. I am also sure that they are nice. However, IMHO, Michelle really seems to be emotionally detached from her younger children. I think she relates to the older girls. It is almost as if they are her equals and the children belong to them. I really think that Jill, especially, does far too much in that household. I know helping out is expected, but she seems to be the core person in the running of the house and the care of the children. In essence, the mother.

In my view, they don't seem to have much fun. The older siblings drag themselves and their buddies around on little trips that really, underneath, have not too much educational value.

They are lovely girls, but all this work and effort should be applied to their own homes and their own children, not those of their parents.

Kay said...

"About the income...if on the cheque it says "to Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar", then it's theirs they do not have to ration it to the kids. If it says "to Duggar family", then the money also belongs to the children."
--
It doesn't really matter who TLC writes the check out to-- if it's one check, and it has "The Duggars" on it, then Jim Bob can do whatever he wants with it. That is, of course, if he's not contractually or legally (as per Ark. state laws) bound to disperse the funds among his family.
That said, there are 4 adult Duggar progeny (at home) that would have to be paid, separately, by TLC. Also, it's been discussed before, but Josh and Anna have to be paid separately (for use and filming of their home, Macynzie, and businesses).

As for the children getting paid, this depends on Arkansas state laws. Every state has different child labor laws, and a lot of states have no laws on children working in entertainment.

About the kids having bank accounts... After learning about the "Duggar Family Bank" (with Jim Bob as president), I really doubt that any of the kids under 18 have their own accounts.

mythoughtis said...

the new issue of AARP magazine quotes Jim Bob as saying he and Michelle only have 20 productive years left. If that is so, maybe they need to stop having children so that they can raise them to adulthood before they consider themselves too old to do so.

And, I wonder how his over 65 year old Mom thinks of a commment like that.

Anonymous said...

mythoughtis said...

"the new issue of AARP magazine quotes Jim Bob as saying he and Michelle only have 20 productive years left. If that is so, maybe they need to stop having children so that they can raise them to adulthood before they consider themselves too old to do so.

And, I wonder how his over 65 year old Mom thinks of a commment like that."


HAHAHA If I were her , I'd say, sonny boy, let me introduce to to Mr and Mrs Maytag, I am not feeling very productive now

Cyn said...

the new issue of AARP magazine quotes Jim Bob as saying he and Michelle only have 20 productive years left.

****************
Sounds about right, they are in their mid to late 40's add another 20 years and MOST people are looking to retire then... Considering it was from AARP (American Association of Retired Persons)

Anonymous said...

What about Jim Bob's part in all of these pregnancies? They always interview Michelle, but isn't part of the Gothard principle that Jom Bob is her "boss?" (I hear Anna say it all the time and cringe.) Can he not put a stop to it also, maybe not make relations with his wife at certain times, or suggest they not have any more? I know he is all into the "blessing" thing also, but someone has to be level headed.

Anonymous said...

I'm starting to catch up with the last year of epsidodes by watching TLC in the morning. On this morning's episode the 911 tape was played (when Josie was home for only 48 hours). I couldn't believe what I heard. The daughter was trying to answer the operator's questions but obviously couldn't. What I wanted to know is if anyone heard the whole tape? I don't blame the daughter at all. Michelle should have been on the phone answering the questions. I'm an MD and know that parents of premies are taught how to read all the monitors that the baby is sent home with. What I pictured in my mind was Michelle running around like a chicken without it's head. Once again proof that the parental duties are placed on the older daughters.

K8 Fan said...

As a Christian, I understand the whole "boss" concept. My husband is the head if our family and God is the head of my husband. The bible also says that the husband is ordered to live his wife as Jesus loves the church.  So while I know it makes a lot of women cringe to hear this, it really isn't how a lot of people interpret it. For one, a woman needs to make sure she is picking a good man to marry. A man that will honor her. In my marriage I have a voice and an opinion. My husband asks me for advise. We make decisions together, I am his "help meet". I am here to make his life better. Thankfully my husband also believes his role is to love me and take care of me and not to abuse his authority. My husband doesn't want to be "in charge". But if we disagree about something, I know the decision is ultimately his. And I trust ge will make good and right decisions because he will follow the Lord. I am to respect him regardless, and he is to love me regardless.
I think a lot of the time, people get the wrong picture because women with the "helpmeet" mentality enter a marriage with a man who is not respectful or holy or good and he abuses his authority. He expects his wife to wait on him hand and foot, he demands sex from his wife, he maybe even abuses his wife, and he definitely takes advantage of his wife and ge reminds her that the bible says he has authority over her, all the while ignoring that the bible has orders for HIM TOO!!  He us order to follow god, and to live his wife as Jesus loves the church. It is a double standard. 

Anonymous said...

MOST people are looking to retire then... (after age 65)
================================

Aha -- but guess who doesn't get to retire then? The woman running the household. While those who work outside the home may indeed retire at age 65 if so lucky, most women still have to maintain that 24/7 job of cleaning, cooking, grocery shopping, etc., that a household needs to function.

However, since Michelle does very little of that and hasn't for years, maybe she could begin at age 65, once all the children are finally grown.

Reality TV Junkie said...

About the 911 phone call...

I believe Jill had to speak on the phone because Michelle had to tend to Josie. Michelle is the mother, so the hospital obviously taught only her how to care for a premature child, therefore, someone else had to speak with the operator. It makes sense to me.

Cyn said...

Maybe Michelle should have been the one on the phone passing on needed information, and tending to Josie, and at the door making sure it was unlocked and exterior lights were turned on, and the one making sure the gate was open, and getting dressed, and making sure they had all the medications, and, and,and.... all those things you need to get done in an emergency situation like this.

Instead though Michelle does what she does best, take the job that most needs MOM, and delegates the rest.

I didn't hear a woman running like a chicken, I heard a worried but mostly in control mom, feeding the answers to a frightened Jill on the phone, while she was doing what she had been taught to do with Josie herself. The only other choice would be to give the baby to some one else (who did not have the same amount of time and training with the care of Josie), and answer the questions on the phone.

As a mom, I have done this in emergencies, depending on the child that has gotten hurt or the injury: I delegate jobs, one to call dad, one to get the younger kids dressed, one to go start the car etc. Unlike Mrs Duggar though, usually it's my oldest with the injury that requires a trip to the ER.

faline said...

Thank you k8fan; that does explain a lot. I will cringe quite a bit less
now that I heard your explanation of being the "boss" in any given household.

mythoughtis said...

In the situation of the 911 call... any Mom would stay with the daughter in distress and ask the only other person in the house that is awake to call 911. You don't really ever think about the fact that that person is going to play 20 questions with the operator, or that the person making the phone call needs medical knowledge to talk to said operator.

The truth is that when there are as many children in the household as the Duggars have, you won't alwyas have both parents in the same place, or one will be tied up caring for some of the other children... and the older siblings will get relied on. I can't fault that logic in this case...

But, I never give these parents a psss for consistently and involuntarily making their older daughters indentured servants for their conceivable future. Michelle will not have to worry about too many more grandchildren taking her limelight because only the boys will be getting married and having children for the next several years.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

What do you think they do in Dec? Do they have separate birthday parties plus Christmas?

ennvee said...

The tenets of a Christian marriage are not disputed. The problem lies in issues beyond being the husband's "helpmeet."

Gothard, Phillips and their ilk are proponents of legalistic authoritarinism. Josh and Anna's marriage was not entirely an affair of the heart. Josh had to approach his father for approval to court Anna. Jim Bob could have easily said no and Josh would have had to move on to the next girl. Once Anna was approved, Anna's father was approached and HE had to approve the courtship. All of this was done without Anna's knowledge or consent. She has been trained from birth (or however long they have followed Gothard) to obey; she had no choice but to be courted by Josh, like it or not.

Anna was lucky. A lot of the girls whose families follow the same extreme beliefs are not as fortunate.

K8 Fan said...

It's not always about following your heart. It's more about leading your heart in the direction God wants to take you. Regardless of how it was arranged it was Gods will for Josh and Anna to marry. Whether that came about through her falling in love with him or their fathers arranging it, their families felt that the Lord was calling for Josh and Anna to be together. And according to what I have read, if either Josh or Anna had felt at any time during the courtship that this wasnt what the Lord wanted for them, either one of them could have backed out at any time. So for them it wasn't about falling in love with each other, it's about loving the Lord enough to trust HIM rather than trusting your HEART. Because your heart will lead you astray, God won't.
I am not saying I agree with the whole thing. Just stating what I have read about Gothards mixed with some of my knowledge/beliefs as a Christian.
As far as Anna being lucky, I'm not so sure. I sure wouldn't want to be married to Josh. He seems like a pig headed, narcisistic, immature schmuck. They just seem like 2 little kids playing house to me.

Anonymous said...

K8 Fan said...
"So for them it wasn't about falling in love with each other, it's about loving the Lord enough to trust HIM rather than trusting your HEART. Because your heart will lead you astray, God won't."

God doesn't trust that Anna or Josh had brains or hearts that could guide them?

Anna is trapped in a prearranged marriage, with a man that was deemed to be suited for her. Sure, she could have said no, at the risk of disobeying her father, the head of the household, and the person in possession of the infinite wisdom imparted to him simply because he is a man. Anna and the Duggar girls have absolutely no choice in their relationships. They have been bred to dutifully obey male authority, and conditioned to believe that they must remain subservient to males.

Anonymous said...

Today is Josie's first birthday and Radaronline has an interview with Michelle. Apparently, Josie is short and pudgy now, weighing over 15 pounds. She also said that Josie's not crawling yet, but rolls to whatever she wants to get to. It also mentions that she can sit alone for pretty long periods of time. They're certainly blessed that she has come so far over the past year! The article goes on to say that Jim Bob and some of the older children are on a mission trip to Honduras (if I remember the country correctly) and the birthday celebration will be when they all get home in the next few days.

K8 Fan said...

That's great. But what about Jordyn? Is her birthday just gonna slip by because the celebration that Josie made it another year is more of a blessing?!?!? It's awesome that Josie made it. PRAISE GOD!!! What a miracle. But Jordyn is a blessing too!!

Anonymous said...

We make decisions together, I am his "help meet". I am here to make his life better.
**********************************
I still think the word "helpmeet" is a very discriminatory word. Why is the woman referred to as a helpmeet? Then a man should also be her helpmeet, as he should be helping her and making her life better too.
In the case of the Duggars, the girls should be raised with the same self-esteem as the boys. The whole transfer of authority deal reeks of the middle ages, when a woman was merely a possesion of her husband and nothing more.
I am a Christian too and was never raised to believe that the man is the "boss". The man and woman should be equal partners as co-heads of households. Any other way gives one person authority over the other and that is not right.

Anonymous said...

I absolutely agree all children are blessings! Unfortunately, Jordyn's 2nd birthday wasn't mentioned in the article. Since her 1st happened during such family chaos last year, I would hope they're planning something really special for her this year. That said, I wonder if yet another birthday of that adorable little girl will go unnoticed. If not unnoticed, will be celebrated in the crowd of December birthdays..except Josie's.

msrylee said...

K8Fan, I couldn't agree with you more!! Well-said.

mythoughtis said...

'It's not always about following your heart. It's more about leading your heart in the direction God wants to take you. Regardless of how it was arranged it was Gods will for Josh and Anna to marry. Whether that came about through her falling in love with him or their fathers arranging it, their families felt that the Lord was calling for Josh and Anna to be together. And according to what I have read, if either Josh or Anna had felt at any time during the courtship that this wasnt what the Lord wanted for them, either one of them could have backed out at any time. So for them it wasn't about falling in love with each other, it's about loving the Lord enough to trust HIM rather than trusting your HEART. Because your heart will lead you astray, God won't. "

How were Josh or Anna supposed to contradict their families belief (according to you) that the Lord wanted them to be together without appearing to defy that same Lord?
That wouuld only work if their families also now believed that their union was no longer ordained by God.

If Josh and Anna had decided on their own that God was leading them to get married, that would be one thing... but when their families told them that the Lord had spoken, then that made it impossible for them to back out.

Also, how do YOU know that it was God's will for them to marry? why would God tell you about his will for two people you've never met? enever is God l,

Kay said...

K8Fan said: "For one, a woman needs to make sure she is picking a good man to marry. A man that will honor her. In my marriage I have a voice and an opinion. My husband asks me for advise. We make decisions together, I am his "help meet". I am here to make his life better. Thankfully my husband also believes his role is to love me and take care of me and not to abuse his authority."

The whole problem with designating the husband as the leader of the family, as with the "helpmeet" idea, is that no person, in a marriage, should have tyrannical control of the political and physical well-being of his family. Your husband is good to you; I'm sure there are many good, kind husbands who have "helpmeet" wives. This is not true for all of them-- and, when you get down to it, the "helpmeet" theory is a great excuse to abuse. No person, man or woman, should submit to their spouse just because some doctrine told them to.

Also, the "helpmeet" theory assumes that the husband is the best leader. In the secular world, married folks tend to work out who is the natural leader on their own-- by judging who makes the best decisions, is home more often, manages the bills, etc. In many secular households, this leader is the wife. In my relationship, my husband tends to be the leader, even though I'm a well-educated and independent feminist. It's just the way our marriage works. Religion puts a dangerous definition on who should play which roles in marriage-- and I argue that it should be up to the individuals that make up a married couple. Anything less is tyranny.

K8 Fan said...

First of all, I didn't say that God advised me personally in anyway that Josh and Anna should be together. That would make me looney.

Secondly, I have clearly struck a nerve in some people. Being a helpmeet does not by ANY means make you less than your partner. In fact my husband comments regularly that our home wouldn't function with out me, and that I just let him (and the rest of the world) THINK he wears the pants, but we really know who's in charge. It's a joke between us. I am not some churchmouse in a prairie dress I assure you. I am also a well educated independent woman who happens to submit herself wholeheartedly to her husband. I am not saying that I live the same lifestyle as the Duggars, have the same beliefs, or even want to, I was simply playing devils advocate and shedding light on the other side of the story.

ennvee said...

The Duggar definition of "helpmeet" goes beyond the man providing and the wife keeping house and raising the children.

Evidence is provided in the link below: Gothard's "how to" manual for a successful marriage that is posted as "Jim Bob's Tips To a Happy Marriage" on the TLC site:

http://tlc.discovery.com/tv/duggars/top-ten/marriage-tips/marriage-tips.html#mkcpgn=fbtlc1

Numbers 3 and 4 are particularly sexist and highlight the differences between a marriage where the wife might submit to a husband in terms of being the breadwinner, and full-on submission to the male authority figure. My husband doesn't "allow" me to do anything. Not having children, most of the other "tips" do not apply, but as a wife, I would not want to be lumped in with the children, looking to your husband to be praised rather than corrected.

That is not "loving your wife as you love the church." It's something far more dangerous and, of course, very attractive to men like Jim Bob who had socialization problems as a teenager; now he's the boss and I don't doubt for one second he loves his position.

Josh may be a sanctimonious boob, but in their circles, he's a RICH, sanctimonious boob. Anna's family seems more permissive than the Duggars, so maybe she could have asked to back out, but I seriously doubt Jim Bob would have allowed it. I said Anna was lucky because many of those arranged marriages in ATI lead to spiritual and physical abuse because the husband is essentially drunk with power he thinks God laid on his heart. THAT is the inherent danger here.

It is my most fervent hope that none of the girls, who will move away to live with their husband's family, will be as lucky as Anna, but the pickings of ATI royalty are thin, and the Duggars being on TV may actually make them too LIBERAL for other families who could provide the lifestyle to which the girls have become accustomed, which is a piece of cake compared to most of their peers.

Anonymous said...

" I said Anna was lucky because many of those arranged marriages in ATI lead to spiritual and physical abuse because the husband is essentially drunk with power he thinks God laid on his heart. THAT is the inherent danger here"

Well said. After all, Josh has finally "tasted" the power of a patriarch, which he was brought up his entire life to venerate as his male birthright. along with S$$ and the physical experiences with Anna.

Now way does he have the experience to not gulp down the heady wine of power, women and being accepted as an adult male patriarch- he's jumping into the wine barrel and swimming in smug drunkenness from it all.

Swiss Miss said...

Jim Bob's marriage guidelines seem generally very respectful to me, and if more husbands were to follow them to the letter, there would likely be many more successful marriages in the world. I understand the problem ennvee has with the term "allow," as well as the one about correcting your children and spouse, but it seems to me that the problem could be a matter of semantics, and if Jim Bob's guidelines were truly taken with an open heart and an eye single to God, the implementation of these rules would only result in happiness in the marriage and family.

hannah said...

Well, they said the girls wnana marry someone like there mom and the girls like the dad. I think thats creepy

Also, Anna looks just like a Duggar. She also makes Joshs meals, does his laundry etc just like his sisters did.

SK said...

K8 Fan said: "Being a helpmeet does not by ANY means make you less than your partner(...)I am also a well educated independent woman who happens to submit herself wholeheartedly to her husband."

If one of the main components of being a helpmeet is submission to the husband, in what way does submitting to somebody not make the person submitting lesser? By definition you are supplicating yourself, acknowledging there is someone in a dominant position (through oppositional validation--for instance, the only way there can be happy is because there is sad, the only way there can be submission is if there is dominance). Dominance requires having more power than the person in the submissive role. Therefore, submitting to one's husband is an acknowledgment of being less.

I am not making a judgment label on the choice of Michelle and Jim Bob, though I am perfectly comfortable doing that in some other aspects of their life like restriction of media, but just saying that let's not obscure what the truth is so we can better discuss it with full knowledge. The concept that the Helpmeet role does not make the woman lesser is the result of the forced imposition of modern and postmodern feminist beliefs on a solely patriarchal framework.

K8 Fan said...

Wow. That Bill Gothards is something else. Until last week I had no idea he existed. That's some SCARY stuff. I hope the Duggars, who say they are baptist, are fill fledged Gothard followers!!!! I thought they were very devout Christians.

Anonymous said...

I just read Jim Bob's tips for a healthy marriage, and I'm appalled and disgusted at the #1 tip, "be fruitful and multiply." First, it reeks of his absolute arrogance regarding his ability to procreate. Obviously, Jim Bob doesn't realize that the desire to mate is one of the most primal human functions that starts in the part of the brain that is so primitive we share it with reptiles. What separates humans from other species is our ability to control, and moderate, our primal functions. The more developed portions of Jim Bob's brain should allow him to realize that although he takes that phrase from scripture, its only truth is when it is used in context of the early writings, at a time when being "fruitful" contributed to survival. It isn't applicable in an overpopulated world that is stretching its own resources.

Secondly, when alleged to be a key to a "happy marriage" that phrase becomes a dagger to the hearts of happily married couples who can't bear children. It also attempts to negate the true happiness experienced by many couples who willingly choose not to have children. My husband and I have a lot of children, but our happiness as a married couple is based on our love and respect for one another.

Anonymous said...

Hooray for Anonymous 9:14 am - great points!

I doubt Mr. and Mrs. Duggar are smart enough to GET your points, though. They seem, at least as shown in their 'reality' show, as, well, unable to think deeply or independently.

If aimed at the Duggars, your comments are like 'casting pearls before swine' - not that the Duggars are pigs, only that they don't get out of the pen much and are capable only of simplistic concepts.

Reality TV Junkie said...

I just read Jim Bob's tips for a healthy marriage, and I'm appalled and disgusted at the #1 tip, "be fruitful and multiply."
-----------------------------
"Be fruitful and multiply" could be interpreted many ways. It could mean to multiple babies, but it could mean many other things. Love, experiences, time together. "Multiply" in there situation can mean many things.

ennvee said...

Wow. That Bill Gothards is something else. Until last week I had no idea he existed. That's some SCARY stuff.

=====================================

I just wanted to point out that they use Gothard's stuff to guide their life. The "40 character traits" at every seat of the young mothers' luncheon? Gothard. The ATI/IBLP homeschool curriculum used solely up to 3rd grade and as supplemental tools after that age (Wisdom booklets, etc)? Gothard. The homeschool conference? Gothard. The young womens' "conference" wherein Jana realized she was vain or prideful (you have GOT to be kidding!) and was told she had to pray harder to be a better person? Gothard.

Gothard is all about breaking the free will of children (what he calls "obedience training) so they can't function independently of like-minded people as adults.

I always question the chaperones and whatnot: if they are so strong in their faith, can't they be trusted to be alone with members of the opposite sex, or a fiancee? What about something like Rumspringa? That would test their faith as ADULTS; I really can't accept that Josh gave his soul to God when he was 7. A kid that young doesn't know the entirety of the concept.

I say let the Duggar kids over 18 test their wings on their own; Michelle and Kelly Bates always use that flower and bird metaphors, yet keep the kids' buds pruned and their wings clipped. Let 'em fly! If they come back, they're yours, if not, let them live the life they want to live, as a mainstream Baptist, Buddhist or whatever THEY choose.

By following Gothard before God, these kids have NO choices, because to defy their father is to defy Gothard's rules (even before it defies God). I hope this makes sense.

Anonymous said...

Wait... Gothard is neither married nor a parent, right?

Always amazing when people with absolutely NO actual experience in marriage and raising children claim to be authority on both of these important life experiences.

Equally amazing is that some are willing to set aside their OWN common sense, their OWN real life experience to follow the lead of an inexperienced "Do as I say, not as I do" type like Gothard.

Duggars, wake up!

Anonymous said...

As to the constant need for chaperones, etc., even for adult yet unmarried daughters, that's just plain silliness. If they have supposedly done such a wonderful job of raising their children to be "good Christians," then why don't they trust any of their adult children to be alone to go shopping, take a job outside the compound, etc.?

I think it seems like they don't trust their faith to withstand what we would call "everyday" life, being out and about with the general population.

To me, Gothard seems like a holy scammer, who twists the words in the bible to suit his own needs and desires. The Duggars and anyone else weak enough to fall under Gothard's spell are not to be admired, but pitied.

Iliketheduggars said...

"The tenets of a Christian marriage are not disputed. The problem lies in issues beyond being the husband's 'helpmeet.'"

I'm a Christian, and I'm disputing them.

I fully support the rights of the Duggars and any other couple living in an arrangement where the husband is "The Boss" and the wife is "The Lesser" if they so choose (because God likes men better, I guess), but let's not mistake those for mainstream Christian beliefs... they're not. "Wife as submissive helpmeet" is a belief in the very conservative, extremist, or cultic groups... and occasional members from other Christian ideologies who listen to a little too much Focus on the Father-I-Mean-Family.

I like the Duggars, but in no way do they represent the tenets of a typical Christian marriage.

i-like-pie said...

What happens every year in March? Is that the Duggars anniversary month?

_____

According to Wikipedia, their anniversary is July 21st, 1984.

Karen said...

As to the constant need for chaperones, etc., even for adult yet unmarried daughters, that's just plain silliness. If they have supposedly done such a wonderful job of raising their children to be "good Christians," then why don't they trust any of their adult children to be alone to go shopping, take a job outside the compound, etc.?

-----
that has bothered me for a while, Where do they say that their adult children must always be chaperoned? (2 cases job/shopping) This seems to me an assumption based on the half-hour once a week we see.

I don't think a job outside the house (one house does not a compound make) is feasible at this time (whether or not they want a job or their parents want them to have one) because of the TLC commitments; it wouldn't be fair to the employer to either not have their employee around or have a camera crew around disrupting their place of business.
Besides you know if they had a paying job, someone would complain that "they don't need the money, they are stealing that paycheck from someone who needs it more."
It is a lose-lose. I do think volunteering works well for them for now, flexible hours and the need is there.
You can't assume that because they seem to always go in groups shopping then that is the rule. It is more interesting for the viewer to see 2 of more people interacting so that could have a part in it. and young adult girls often like group shopping - if you judge young adult girls by movies and TV. so if shopping is more fun in groups and it is more visibly interesting then why not.
BTW, wasn't Jinger just at the mall, unchaperoned - I wouldn't think little brothers would count as chaps nor do predominately male (nonfamily) camera crews.

Anonymous said...

ennvee said: "The young womens' "conference" wherein Jana realized she was vain or prideful (you have GOT to be kidding!) and was told she had to pray harder to be a better person? Gothard"

------------------

Can someone please explain when this happened? Where everyone found out about it or where I could go to learn more about it? I've read references to it a couple times on this blog but can't find anything else about it.
Thanks in advance :)

Cyn said...

Here is the girls retreat, where Christian girls are asking each other questions about the retreat they were just on.

It was a rather sweet, and introspective podcast.

http://www.livingthejourney.com/2009/10/11/duggars-on-a-journey/

Anonymous said...

I was on TLC's site reading some questions posed to Michelle. She was asked if they believed in spanking. Is it just me or did she really not answer the question?

Anonymous said...

"The ATI/IBLP homeschool curriculum used solely up to 3rd grade and as supplemental tools after that age (Wisdom booklets, etc)? Gothard."

This statement isn't true. The curriculum the Duggars use for up to third grade is called ACE (Accelerated Christian Education), not ATI. It is a well-established homeschool curriculum that has been around for 40 years and is not affiliated with Gothard or ATI in any way. The ATI Wisdom Booklets are geared for older children and would be of practically no use to children 3rd grade and younger anyway.

After 3rd grade the Duggars then use Switched-on Schoolhouse as their main curriculum, which again has no affiliation with Gothard. So while the Duggars are definitely Gothard followers and use ATI, the ATI curriculum is used only as a supplement at every stage in their childrens' education.

Anonymous said...

Just an observation...Despite the many comments to the effect that Josh is a smug jerk drunk on his own power, I fail to see how he mistreats his wife or child in any way. I've only seen him be kind and loving to both of them. Just because Anna washes his clothes and fixes his meals doesn't make him a smug jerk drunk on power...Anna has stated that she likes doing these jobs and is happy to leave Josh the job of doing the breadwinning and she wants to run the household and do the mothering. She seems very happy to me.

I'm only trying to defend the accusations that Josh is a jerk in the sense that he mistreats Anna. I don't see it, he seems pretty harmless. What I do see is a guy with an annoying know-it-all personality. That in and of itself does not necessarily a controlling husband make.

Anonymous said...

Reality TV Junkie said...
"Be fruitful and multiply" could be interpreted many ways. It could mean to multiple babies, but it could mean many other things. Love, experiences, time together. "Multiply" in there situation can mean many things.

Jim Bob Duggar is a fundamentalist christian, which means that it is almost a certainty that he believes in biblical literalism. In Genesis 1:28 the instruction from God is for man to go be fruitful, multiply and replenish the earth, and to have dominion over it. Gen. 8:17 commands for every living creature, and everything that "creepeth" on the earth breed abundantly, be fruitful and multiply. Gen. 9:1 is a blessing to Noah and his sons to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. Gen. 17: 20 Ishmael is blessed and is to be fruitful and multiply, from which a nation will be formed. Gen. 28:3 instructs to be fruitful and multiply to create a multitude of people.

The bible passages that use the term "be fruitful and multiply" are all a direction for reproduction. It is quite a stretch to posit that Jim Bob would use that phrase to mean anything else. He would have to stray from his religious convictions, if that were the case, which seemingly would make him a hypocrite.

Nancy said...

This statement isn't true. The curriculum the Duggars use for up to third grade is called ACE (Accelerated Christian Education), not ATI.

----------------------------------

Can you verify this? I've followed the Duggars for years and have never heard or read anything about this particular curriculum. And yes, I also read the book. What they HAVE said is that it's Michelle's primary responsibility to teach up to 3rd grade and they often talked about ALL the kids learning about weird Wisdom Booklet stuff pertaining to the law and real estate, which struck me as incredibly weird at the time. It was also my understanding that the ATI curriculum was a K-12 program. I know that they use SOS, it's pimped all over their website and I actually saw an ad for it featuring the Duggars earlier today on a cooking site!

Anyway, it wouldn't be the first time there has been ambiguity regarding what the Duggars do and like it or not for them, people are curious about their education, and whatnot.

To the person who addressed Josh, I think the remarks were made regarding Josh as a whole; he has come off as a smug jerk from Day One. And from what we've seen from Anna of late (she's taken some definite shote at their detractors), his attitude is rubbing off on her. It doesn't make him a bad husband or father, just a smug jerk. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Cyn said...

http://www.zionacademy.com/colleges.htm

Zion Academy uses the ACE books, all the way through High School and the link takes you to the list of Colleges that accept this curriculum.

Check the states of Mass., and Cali for a shocker, it seems even the most vaunted schools in the nation accept students graduating High School with the education garnered from these books.

Tells me they can't be all bad, it was the list of colleges,and the fact that the college my oldest chose will accept the diplomas and transcripts is the reason we chose it.

Cyn said...

Can you verify this? I've followed the Duggars for years and have never heard or read anything about this particular curriculum.

http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/
(scroll down to Dec 3, 2010)

http://www.duggarfamily.com/links3.html
Been on their web site since they created the site.

http://home-school.lovetoknow.com/Duggar_Family_Interview
Another interview where she mentions them.

Google "Duggars and ACE books" and links pop up every where where she has discussed it, and it's in the Duggar book on page 184, where she is discussing homeschooling (it's on Amazon's web site).

kels said...

"I was on TLC's site reading some questions posed to Michelle. She was asked if they believed in spanking. Is it just me or did she really not answer the question? "

No, she didn't. They never answer this question, but I believe that they do spank their children. They follow the Bible so literally ..and the Bible says that to spare the rod is to spoil the child.

I almost guarantee you they spank. And if that IS indeed the case, I think it's interesting that they aren't willing to admit it. Aren't they just following the Bible and their faith? Why are they ashamed of their choice of discipline? They claim that the point of the show is to encourage families and share experiences. If the viewers want to know about their parenting experiences... why not share about the ways they discipline? They want to show off their well-behaved children, yet they are SO evasive in answering questions about discipline. Why is it such a secret?

K8 Fan said...

Anonymous said :
Just an observation...Despite the many comments to the effect that Josh is a smug jerk drunk on his own power, I fail to see how he mistreats his wife or child in any way. I've only seen him be kind and loving to both of them. Just because Anna washes his clothes and fixes his meals doesn't make him a smug jerk drunk on power...Anna has stated that she likes doing these jobs and is happy to leave Josh the job of doing the breadwinning and she wants to run the household and do the mothering. She seems very happy to me.

I'm only trying to defend the accusations that Josh is a jerk in the sense that he mistreats Anna. I don't see it, he seems pretty harmless. What I do see is a guy with an annoying know-it-all personality. That in and of itself does not necessarily a controlling husband make.

-----—-------------------------------------------
I was one of the people saying things about Josh. I personally never meant to even imply that he was an abusive or "bad" husband or father, just that he is am arrogant, pompous butthole, that's lacks maturity of a normal guy his age, I think he is egotistical and self absorbed.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The ACE curriculum is very good. If the children master the skills they will be fine. It is as good as any public school curriculum. I used it with my daughter for years.

As far as spanking is concerned I do not blame the Duggars for not engaging in a discussion about how they handle this in their up bringing. It is a hot topic and if they did say anything I am sure they would get blasted. I think it is wise that they not make any comments

Nancy said...

Thanks for the homeschool information. I had no idea they had a K-3 program; I honestly don't remember being mentioned in the book, but I only read it in one evening two years ago. A lot of water under the bridge since then. I also don't explore every nook and cranny of their website, but have seen SOS prominently displayed. Not sure how I missed ACE.

Is Michelle still teaching or has that gone over to one of the girls as well? (Since Josie I think we all know the answer to that question, but what about the 4 years they were in the big house before that, with all those computers?

Does anyone here know whether AR requires foreign language as a requirement to pass the GED? I've seen the basic National GED requirements and a 9th grader could pass them. I know they have Rosetta Stone (Joy was told to go practice Spanish in an episode), but since they're not college bound, where foreign language is a requirement to graduate, can they get their GED's without it? I ask more for the older kids who didn't have the tools that the younger kids have and would have had a real Spanish speaking person teaching them (I don't think back-o out of the way-o Jim Bob would pass muster). Any AR homeschoolers out there?

Anonymous said...

As to the question of spanking, Ar law allows spanking with the open hand and with an implement such as a paddle. The Ar schools even practice spanking with a paddle or wooden spoon in the school system and they have rules to cover it.

Ar home schooling requirements are some of the toughest in the nation. You can look it up on the ar educ website. They are one of the ones that actually test the kids routinely. Here in Wi you can apparently do whatever you want for a curriculum and they do no testing.

K8 Fan said...

Does anyone know when the 3rd season, 19 kids and counting is coming out on DVD? I keep checking Netflix for it.
I dint have cable so I have only seen 18 and counting (season 2) the season where Josh and Anna get married.

HW said...

K8 Fan-

I'm curious about your commenting identity.

Is it a way of showing your appreciation of another well known reality mom on TLC? If so, that is of course your choice and I don't mean to disparage it; but your comments make it hard for me to reconcile your appreciation for respect and honor in marriage with the way Kate Gosselin treated her spouse. It is documented for the world to see on countless episodes how mean spirited she was to her husband. Your comments are well written and I agree with some of of what you've written. But how do you admire a woman like Kate, if that is indeed what your ID means, when you are so fervent in your beliefs about love and respect in marriage.
I recognize that this is a Duggar forum but I find the crossover interesting.

And, if I am way off base, then I apologize to you and all the other readers.

K8 Fan said...

HW.
With out going off topic or break any rules, I'll explain:
I found the Duggar board as a link on the GwoP board. I wanted to be honest with the GwoP ladies from day one and disclose myself as a Kate fan, because I was kind of on the fence...
I am no longer a K8 fan, but I keep the same ID because I don't want anyone to think I am a troll or that I am trying to post under different names, etc and question my intent, honesty or integrity.
I hope that doesn't change anyones opinion of me.

Anonymous said...

"While I don't necessarily believe that a woman needs to be quite as submissive as Michelle Duggar, I do believe that if women would just RESPECT their husbands, they would see that their husbands would be sooooo much more loving, agreeable, and respectable. Men need respect as much as us women need love."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Just please be careful not to assume that if/when a husband strays, shows disrespect to his wife, &/or becomes emotionally or physically abusive, it is NOT wife's fault. The assumption that women bring these things on themselves is completely false and unfair, and some men are willing to hide their own misbehavior behind this concept. Some men show disrespect NO MATTER how well they've been treated, no matter how respectful and loving their wives have been to them.

Neither gender should be respected less than the other.

I don't believe in wives being submissive to their husbands, but I will give credit where due: both Michelle and Jim Bob seem, at least on camera, to always be respectful of the other.

Anonymous said...

Typo Alert: The "NOT" in the first sentence of "anonymous 5:48pm" is a typo.

In other words, please don't assume that when a husband shows disrespect to his wife, it is because of some shortcoming of the wife.

Please do not blame the victim of disrespect. Please know it is the perpetrator, the one showing disrespect, who makes the decision and the choice to treat his spouse with disrespect.

Anonymous said...

Does nobody have any real time sightings of the Duggars? It seems to have been a while since anyeone posted on here with having seen them anywhere around.

Anonymous said...

This blog has certainly slowed down for the holidays.

Sharla said...

No new episodes and people busy preparing for holidays will do that. The other sites are also very slow. I think that is a good thing. :)

msrylee said...

Yesterday was Jordyn's second birthday. (We share the date). I wonder if her birthday was celebrated in the Duggar style. My hope is that her day would have been a big event, as her first birthday took place during the early days of Josie's arrival/fight for life, etc.

Allison said...

This isn't really news, but I did read on Examiner.com that TLC has announced a sixth season, and on Amy's facebook wall she says she went to film a couple weeks ago. But there's not word on when they will air.

Anonymous said...

It's really too bad they will have a sixth season. Some of those kids have never known any life except one with cameras constantly in their faces and lights all over their home.

It just isn't any way to grow up, and one day, it will come back and bite the Duggar parents.

Sharla said...

One reader questions why her comments don't go through. The answer is that they must be written in standard English. Sentences and proper nouns need to begin with capital letters and no texting abbreviations should be used.

Kitten said...

I'm just curious - what do you think would happen if one of the Duggar boys wanted to be a chef or fashion designer, or one of the girls wanted to be a (real) firefighter or mechanic? What if any of the children wanted to join the military? Do you think their parents would encourage or discourage them?

SuzanneDeAZ said...

To Just curious:

All of those professions are honorable and I do not think the parents would discourage them to engage in any of them. I think they will support all of them.

All we can do is give our opinion. If you really want to know the real answer ask them as they seem to be glad to answer questions.

Anonymous said...

I am certain that the Duggar parents do not condone their children, including their boys, joining the military (which doesn't fit with their political leanings, but does with Gothard's).

I don't think we will see a male Duggar fashion designer or solider (or doctor, lawyer, academic, etc). Car lot owners, tree service, towing, yes.

i-like-pie said...

I, for one, doubt that any Duggar children grow up to become a member of any profession that requires at least an understanding of the processes of evolution and a belief that the world is more than 6,000 years old (biologist, zoologist, botanist, geologist, petroleum engineer, aerospace engineer, geneticist, etc.) or any profession that requires the girls to wear trousers of any kind (they can't be altering most official uniforms the way they did with their volunteer "fire skirts") or any professional athletic career, certainly not swimming! I would also bet that they wouldn't be teachers (at least not in a public school), nor would they likely go into any career that might "defraud" them, such as a physical therapist, massage therapist, or any type of work where they might see someone partially naked or touch a member of the opposite gender.

They might SAY "our kids can be anything they want when they grow up", but the reality is quite different.

Whether consciously or not, their belief system and "family values" are limiting their children's futuer in a way that I feel is dangerous to emulate.

Anonymous said...

It is no surprise to me that there will be Season 6. They probably have a very fine contract for doing so. The lives of their children and the constant intrusion of cameras and people who are not family means nothing to These parents.

When Michelle was in such peril before the Josie's birth, Jim Bob was on camera crying. I did wonder at the time just exactly why he was crying. He said "Life as we know it will be changed forever". I don't know what he meant. Was he crying because there might not be any more pregnancies? Why would a man who had 18 beautiful children be so bothered about that?I think he is as addicted to the pregnancies as Michelle.

It astounded me that Michelle was probably in danger of losing her life or the life of that precious child and Jim Bob allowed cameras in the room and he was on camera crying. Is there nothing private with them? I wonder if they can function without cameras at this point.

I also don't buy the premise that they are being examples for others. They are doing it for money and exploiting their children.

It is common knowledge that children exposed to that kind of scrutiny have problems later on in life. Of course, the Duggars don't believe in that sort of thing. Just smile like Mummy and make believe that all is cozy in the garden.

And Merry Christmas!

Anonymous said...

This interview is old, most of you have but it is one of the most interesting I've ever read from JB and Michelle. They discuss their kid's careers in (slightly) more detail than usual, and Michelle reveals that as a teenager, she used to mow the family lawn in a bikini. (I've never heard that one before..!?) Anyway, just kind of interesting.

http://www.lilsugar.com/Interview-Michelle-Duggar-Mother-18-Children-PART-III-2727153

Anonymous said...

The interview may be old,but it is still relevant. As far as Michelle mowing the lawn in her bikini, It probably caused her neighbour to "struggle". However, is it necessary to go to the other extreme?Also, what happened to all the aspirations for careers their children had? John David wanted to be a pilot, but there he is with a towing company, living at home and trailing around with a bunch of kids to "educational" places. I think that Michelle and Jim Bob are hindering the development of their older children

Michelle intimated that Josh and Anna went along on the trips because they enjoyed them. Josh and Anna get paid from TLC to participate. The is the only reason they go on these trips.

roddma said...

"Wait... Gothard is neither married nor a parent, right?

Always amazing when people with absolutely NO actual experience in marriage and raising children claim to be authority on both of these important life experiences."
Its like writing a book on tap dance when you have never danced. And Gothard isn't an educator so why is he publishing homeschooling materials? teh ACE homse school may be a better option than the ACE schools. I read the ACE schools are all about control much the same way as ATI. Many report bad experiences with them.The 'Retreats' are just to reinforce their beliefs. It makes them feel guilty about every little thing. No human is 100 % perfect.

Kitten said...

"...learned about politics while sitting in on committee meetings when their father was a state legislator in Arkansas."

Seriously? JimBob had his kids sitting in on committee meetings? Bet the other reps just loved that...not.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"
Seriously? JimBob had his kids sitting in on committee meetings? Bet the other reps just loved that...not. "

--------------------------------------

I do recall readiing about how the kids sometimes did attend the committee meetings. I doubt if any of the other reps complained otherwise they would not have the children there. There must have not been a rule against it. Often the meetings are open to the public. I would not be surprised if other reps had their own children there at times too to learn. Attending such meetings is educational.

There is an homeschool organization called Teen Pac in which the students who enroll are encourage to attend such meetings on the local level. My daugher has attended such meetings at the state capitol. I think this is something positive as that is how children learn by observation. They will get to see how adults negociate and handle important issues.

Kitten said...

I don't have a problem with children sitting in on government meetings, provided such meetings are open to the public and the children can behave themselves. I agree it can be very educational. But the children were still pretty young when JimBob was a representative, and unless they had a fervent interest in the topic, I suspect most children would not willingly sit quietly through such meetings. I don't expect they attended many such meetings, and given the level of "learning" we've seen in other outings, I question just how much they "learned" about politics in the process.

Of course, I would hope that if JimBob attempted to bring his children into any meeting not open to the general public, that his fellow representatives would have spoken up.

Cyn said...

Of course, I would hope that if JimBob attempted to bring his children into any meeting not open to the general public, that his fellow representatives would have spoken up.
***********************
Only if they weren't doing it themselves. (or with their grand-kids)

The other Reps and workers in the capital gave Josh the nick name of "lil' governor" and the kids were old enough to go door to door with him as he campaigned. I think they would have been old enough to sit in the back of a public meeting.

Anonymous said...

"Seriously? JimBob had his kids sitting in on committee meetings? Bet the other reps just loved that...not."
==================================

LOL. I'm sure most of them thought JimBob was quite the hick and too cheap to pay for a babysitter!

When he was serving his single term in office, the children were mostly quite young -- much too young to be expected to sit quietly and be interested in politics. So basically JimBob took them because he just can't seem to identify himself unless he has proof of his virility surrounding him at all times.

I guess his constituents were none too impressed either, as they did not vote him back into office for a second term.

My father was a civil engineer and he certainly encouraged all his children to become educated and if they desired, follow in his footsteps. But he certainly didn't take us to meetings at his office, to sit in and "learn engineering." That would have been ridiculous and unprofessional (two words that fit JimBob to a tee). Our education did not come on his employer's time.

Nancy said...

There is an homeschool organization called Teen Pac in which the students who enroll are encourage to attend such meetings on the local level.
====================================

That's all well and good but wasn't Jim Bob elected to his seat in the Big Republican Sweep of '94 when a ton of uber religious sorts (most of whom have been subsequently sent packing) were swept into office? If so, when Jim Bob left office after his two year term, Josh was 8. A little young to participate in what sounds like a beneficial program that would benefit kids of a certain age. Eight is not that age. I've been politically minded my entire life, but the first ELECTION I remember was Nixon; I was in the 4th grade.

I'm sure Jim Bob, like most politicians, used his kids (and lacking any, kissed other peoples' kids) for a photo-op or 20. And all these years later we still see Jim Bob using his family for photo-ops that will line his pockets. I guess you can leave politics, but it never leaves you.

Happy belated birthday wishes to Jordyn (geez, I forgot her, too!) and Jinger!

Cyn said...

When he was serving his single term in office, the children were mostly quite young -- much too young to be expected to sit quietly and be interested in politics.

*****************************
Jim Bob served in the Arkansas House of Representatives from 1999 to 2002.

(when Dad was elected)
Josh would have been 11+
Janna and John David = 9+
Jill = 8+
Jessa = 7+
Jinger = 6+
Joseph would have been 4ish

I remember in grade school during an election year having the entire school doing lessons and things on government, K through 6th grade. We had mock bills, committee meetings, voting, and the rest. WE had a ball doing it, I guess it just depends on how it is presented to the child whether or not they are interested.

The oldest 4-5 were old enough when he started to get something out of it, and by the time he went home more of them could of.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Teen Pac too had mock bills, committee meetings etc. They meet for a week at the state capitol and before they attend they are given a lot of homework. They are required to write two letters to their state representitives and meet with them duirng that week. They also have a one day event in which children as young as 4 or 5 can attend.

I am sure the Duggars did a lot of the same things this group did with their children plus more being their father was involved personally.

Anonymous said...

Jim Bob, ever the politician, wants to promote himself and his family constantly by handing out photographs of them to complete strangers on the street. I find that beyond odd. Not to mention, who wants a photo of the Duggars anyway?

Anonymous said...

I live about 20 minutes away from where the Duggars live. When I was in elementary school (public), I remember learning those character qualities that the Duggars learn. Of course, the Christian spin was not put on the lesson. There was never a Bible verse taught to enforce the lesson. But I definitely remember every single morning, the principal would come on the loud speaker and do a quick lesson on the character trait of the day. Attentiveness vs. Unconcern, Punctuality vs. Tardiness, and Humility vs. Pride are some that I distinctly remember. Anyway, supposedly Gothard "sells" this character-building material to elementary schools.

Anonymous said...

Jim Bob probably took Josh along with him to get him out of the house. Remember those kids do everything in the house (school, church), so it was a great opportunity to get Josh to see other stuff too. Not the most interesting thing to an 11-year-old, but it's better than being stuck in the house all day. Plus, it probably gave Michelle a break to have one less child to worry about.

Nancy said...

Interesting that the state legislature in AR have 3 year terms, yet the governor only has a two year term. I did qualify my statement of when he served, so my apologies for not having the years exactly right, but at any rate, *maybe* the oldest four might have had the intellectual capacity to actually understand the intracacies what was going on.

And let's face it, of those four, only two were going to be permitted to act on this interest, as we saw with John David's run for alderman. Politics, as mechanics, tree surgeons, and, except for short periods during both father and son's marriages, used car salesmen.

I'm not sure how they would handle a boy who wanted to be a chef; it's traditionally a male-dominated profession (at the very top levels), but it's the females who do all the cooking in the Duggar house, save for the occasional turkey bacon or tuna and BBQ sammie (that still makes me gag thinking about it).

IOW, I think any future occupations will be pretty strictly gender-regimented.

Happy Holidays (whatever holiday you celebrate, even if it's merely having an extra day off work)!

msrylee said...

I believe that learning character traits is invaluable, no matter who teaches them. The Duggars certainly aren't the only family who teaches them.

I wish everyone a peaceful, healthy and safe holiday season, and a very happy new year, filled with joy, love and peace.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said:
Jim Bob probably took Josh along with him to get him out of the house. Remember those kids do everything in the house (school, church), so it was a great opportunity to get Josh to see other stuff too. Not the most interesting thing to an 11-year-old, but it's better than being stuck in the house all day.
-----------------------------

Again -- is this appropriate to do? I work in a small office and my boss is a very nice person. However, I do not bring my child along to work because that's just not appropriate. I am being paid to do my job and should behave professionally, not treat my place of employment as a playground for my child.

Once in a while I have brought him into the office - when he was under the weather and I had to come in to do a rush project. Or when he got out of school early and I asked if it would be okay if he came in and did his homework in the conference room. Those exceptions were cleared with my employer.

JimBob was paid as an elected representative. Going to the State Legislature was his job and he should have treated it professionally. If he and his wife needed a babysitter for Josh - hire one. If they had so many kids that his wife needed a break - hire someone to watch the kids and let your wife have a break.

Hopefully, he just took the children once or twice for a photo opportunity, and the rest of the time he actually focused on the business at hand.

BTW, I do agree that the children probably did enjoy any activity that got them out of the house once in a while. I'm just saying that it's inappropriate and unprofessional for any employed person (even more so a public official whose salary is paid by taxpayer dollars) to bring their children to the office with them on a regular basis.

Anonymous said...

Being a state legislator is a public service office, and many of the meetings where they convene and take care of business are technically open to the public and all citizens, although rarely do any citizens attend them. It is an entirely different situation than a privately owned business, office, or other workplace that is NOT open to the public. It is similar in nature to a town council meeting that any citizen can attend, only on a larger, state scale.

Having the opportunity to take an older, well-behaved child along to legislator meetings and such is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that the vast majority of families never have. The Duggar children, particularly the older ones, were trained to be well-behaved in public, and I highly doubt this was a situation where JimBob was bringing Josh along to be "babysat" and Josh was allowed to "play". I'd bet serious cash that Josh sat quietly and just watched and listened to the proceedings, an invaluable experience for a child, causing no disruptions.

If I or my husband held a public office, I would not hesitate to bring my child along for a meaningful educational experience, provided my child was able to sit quietly and be well-behaved, which I don't see a young Josh Duggar having a problem doing.

Anonymous said...

An interesting contrast was noted when watching the McCoughey (sp?)special about their septuplets turn 13.

The mom allowed the oldest daughter to assist OCCASIONALLY with tube feeds for one of the disabled babies, BUT she made it clear that she allowed this only periodically because she did not want the oldest daughter to feel care of her siblings was HER responsibility.

Mrs. Duggar, I'm talking to YOU.

msrylee said...

I watched the special as well, and I was also impressed with the fact that the eldest child assisted the disabled babies on a very limited basis. I was also impressed with the reason given by their mother.

As two of the seven babies were special needs children, these parents had their hands full, and easily could have passed on many duties to the eldest girl.


As the Duggars don't watch T.V. I hope Michelle reads these comments. I look forward to clarification in future Duggar episodes.

Anonymous said...

In most families, the parents assume responsibility for the care of the children. Michelle seems detached. In my view, it is like a "Queen Bee" syndrome. (If this exists). It almost seems that those younger children belong to their "buddies". I think she is going to have a very hard time watching Anna go through however many pregnancies she chooses.

I think that it is quite sad that Jim Bob Opted to go for a 6th year with TLC. That family is in a bit of a mess. The older children are working too hard. There are a bunch of little boys that almost meld into one. None of them seem to get any attention but Jackson, who almost demands it. Then there are those little girls who are treated as almost an afterthought by Michelle.

I have read quite a bit of GWOP. The general opinion is that Kate is exploiting her children for money. The Duggars, no matter how they try to present it to the public,are doing exactly the same thing, under the umbrella of Family Values and setting examples of how we all should live.

It is too bad that these children have to have those cameras around this year. I would hazard a guess that they would not know how to act without a camera in their faces.

I also would expect that when they return to TV, Michelle will have an announcement about her state of Maternity.

I'm Just saying!

Anonymous said...

I also watched the special and was impressed with how all 8 of the children have so far been raised. It should show Michelle it is possible to be a hands on parent. What would she have done if she had 7 at one time?

Anonymous said...

The Duggars are no better than the Gosselins, even though they claim moral superiority. They both sold out their families for greed and money, so are one and the same.

Anonymous said...

Being a state legislator is a public service office, and many of the meetings where they convene and take care of business are technically open to the public and all citizens, although rarely do any citizens attend them. It is an entirely different situation than a privately owned business, office, or other workplace that is NOT open to the public. It is similar in nature to a town council meeting that any citizen can attend, only on a larger, state scale.
-----------------------------

Since I doubt any film footage exists of this event (or series of events if JimBob brought one or more of his children to an open session on more than one occasion), all this talk is pure speculation.

I believe Josh was a young teen at the time his father was in office. If he sat in the public seating during open session and just listened - of course that would be absolutely fine.

But knowing JimBob and his almost pathological need to remind everyone within hearing of exactly how many children he has fathered, I could easily imagine that he (JimBob) would have trouble focusing on the task at hand, especially when it didn't revolve around discussions of how many children he has, and lookie out there, see my brood now.

I too watched part of the special with the McCounehey's (sp?), and appreciated that the parents were doing their job, and allowing their oldest daughter to be a child, not a parent-in-training, not a "buddy", not a sister-mom.

Parenting should be the parents' responsibility. I totally agree with the person who described Michelle as detached and "queen bee." She has abdicated her responsibilities as a mother and is more than happy to just float along, talking in her babyish voice, and tearfully accepting phony awards right, left and center.

Anonymous said...

I don't think that the McCaughey children's situation is the same as the Duggars so I don't think it's comparing apples to apples here.

For one thing, the oldest Mccaughey child was still very little when the babies were born and really wasn't capable of doing much. The Duggars don't give much, if any, responsibility for helping with child care to the kids when they are that age either.

For another thing, there are many older children around to help with younger ones in the Duggar family. If every older child pitches in with one younger child, it's the "many hands make light work" principle, and none of the girls get overburdened. This is quite different than having one older girl potentially help with 7 babies at once.

In addition, the McCaughey family had round-the-clock volunteer help of several people for the first several years of the babies' lives, maybe even longer. If the mom hadn't had that, she wouldn't have had the luxury of being able to keep her daughter doing as little as possible. Her older daughter would have had to help more, although again a child that age is of very limited help anyway.

I've always said, I don't think the way the Duggars have done their buddy system is a bad thing, in fact I see a couple of very good things that have come from it. The girls have developed above-average responsibility and maturity, and it seems to have developed close bonds between siblings. The potential problem I see that concerns me in the Duggar household is that the girls don't seem to have enough outside/educational pursuits outside the home. But I don't see that this is related to their buddy system, I think it's a Duggar family value indpendent of the buddy system.

Anonymous said...

I also agree that there shouldn't be a problem with JimBob taking Josh with him when he held a state office, as long as he was well-behaved. I'm sure JimBob wasn't, and isn't, the only dad in that position to include their child in some of their state meetings. It's a great educational opportunity that is much better than just reading about our congressional procedures in books.

It isn't a private workplace, this is the kind of stuff that is filmed regularly for C-Span, which no one ever watches because it's boring! If you've got a kid who will sit still and learn from what's going on, I say great, take them. Our children are citizens and our future public office holders, they have the right to be there and learn our state and country's lawmaking processes. As long as they are well-behaved, of course, which Josh probably was.

Anonymous said...

" I think it's funny that Jim Bob does not see how buying a repossessed bus can apply to that same principle."

I'm not a JimBob fan, but I don't see anything ethically or morally objectionable about buying a bank-owned vehicle. It's an item that is for sale from a seller, plain and simple. The fact that it's bank-owned makes it a better price, so, great. In fact, it's helping out the bank by purchasing it from them. Whoever owned it before already had their misfortune when the bank came along and took their bus back. The Duggars, or whoever would have purchased the bus instead, had nothing to do with the first owner's misfortune.

Anonymous said...

Re: The Buddy System vs. Not Wanting an Older Sibling To Feel Responsible for the Care of Younger Children:

It is irrelevant that the McC family had volunteers in the early days.

The point IS: it is not the job of older siblings to be surrogate mothers for their MOM'S children.

Further, re: the alleged add'l maturity and responsibility of the oldest Duggar women: I have to disagree. They lack the maturity and skills to make it anywhere but inside the confines of Duggarville. This is NOT a good thing for them. Might be great for the parents, but it is an unfair stifling of individuality and potential to the offspring.

mythoughtis said...

yes, the sextuplet family had volunteers. Let's restate: volunteers that volunteered to spend a couple hours a day helping out, and then went about their days and lives. These people requested that they be allowed to help.
The Duggar girls were drafted to help before they were old enough to say no, and wouldn't have been and aren't allowed to say No in the first place.
You have never seen JimBob or Michelle ask any of the girls to babysit, to clean something, to teach, to fetch something for one of the other kids, etc.... they just tell the younger ones to 'go tell Jana or Jill'. There is no requesting or volunteering going on. They expect more than what is neccessary for the girls to 'pull their own weight' around that house.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Why should the girls volunteer when this is their own family. They have chores as they should. If they really did not want to be there they would not be there being most of the older ones are over 18.

Anonymous said...

How to keep adult kids living at home past 18?

Raise them since birth to believe there are no other real options for them but to make babies to take care of younger babies.

Ensure they are isolated from the world at large so that they are never capable of weighing and deciding in directions that may conflict with parental desires.

Provide a substandard education, making college an almost impossibility.

Above all, teach them never to question, never to search, never to develop individuality.

After years of being chained, animals learn not to even try to escape. Some humans also give up any hopes of real freedom/real adulthood.

Anonymous said...

When a young girl is taught from childhood that her reason for being is to go forth and multiply, it is unreasonable to expect that she will search for any other existence. These young girls do what they are told. They don't seem to have any opinions or thoughts that weren't put there by the parents.

Michelle keeps getting pregnant and expects the young girls to look after everything else. Jim Bob just does not seem to have any self control.

Michelle has already said that if something happened to her in childbirth, the girls would take care of Jim Bob and the other children.

What a legacy for those beautiful, vibrant, young women. She does not consider that they just might want to have some time alone and then marry and have their own children. These girls do a whole lot more than help out. They do it all.

It is almost a show from another planet. Michelle seems to go around in a little bubble. One can only hope that the bubble will one day soon disappear and she uses the brain her God gave her to allow her children some freedom from responsibility and encourages them to seek their fulfillment in life, rather than serve her.

Anonymous said...

The point IS: it is not the job of older siblings to be surrogate mothers for their MOM'S children.
----------------------------

Thank you! The older Duggar girls are not merely "doing chores" around the house to help out -- they work a full time job with almost no vacation. Their unpaid jobs include having their younger siblings sleep in their room at night, every night, once they are weaned from the biological mother.

They clean the house, they shop for groceries, they cook the meals, they clean up the meals, they do the laundry, they tend to their younger siblings needs.

What does the above sound like?

It sounds like what your typical stay at home mother does! Not the teenage (starting at age 12) daughters.

How someone can say that what these girls do are merely "chores," as if these girls spend perhaps one hour a day doing things around the house to help out and then are free to live their young lives, is simply not true. These young women work full time jobs, because their mother had too many children, in the pursuit of worldly fame and acclaim.

If a mom and dad have more children than they can care for, so that they then conscript their daughters, starting at age 12, to do the parenting and run the household for them, -- it is abdicating THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. It is not charming, it is not Christian, it is not commendable. It's foisting their responsibilities onto their children.

If Michelle were in a wheelchair, paralyzed, then I could see asking the older children to do more, to a point. But she is fully capable of caring for all the babies she birthed, and she ought to stand up to her responsibilities and do so.

Anonymous said...

New Duggar book in the works:

http://www.amazon.com/Love-That-Multiplies-Michelle-Duggar/dp/1439183813/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293741829&sr=1-4

Cyn said...

Josh has a car lot
John David runs his own towing business.
Jana plays and teaches the harp, and actually loves being with and around small children.
Jana and Jill volunteered to be EMTs, and took the classes.
Jessa wants to be a teacher or at least likes doing it.
We have seen Jinger doing photography, and we know she doesn't like to cook, but does like to shop. I see individuality in the first 5.

They interact with their community, and communities in other states and other countries. The kitchen wall is covered with photos of people they have met and "fellowshiped with", and or helped. I would say that they interact more with the world at large than most teenagers do.

SOS is accredited, and the transcripts are accepted at any college where any other home school child is accepted. The pace books (which they start with) go all the way through high school and since Harvard and Berkly Most of the other prestigious schools in the nation accept it as a valid HS education I can't see where any of the Duggar educational software is 'substandard'.

I guess it's how you look at things because I see them developing individuality every which direction, I for one would be very sad to see one of the oldest ones pushed into going to college or out of the house simply to please the blogs and the rest of the world.

Then on the other hand for all we know the older ones are taking college classes at home, after all it's much cheaper, work at your own pace, and the ads for college in your pj's are every where.

Remember until the episode with the skirt we didn't even know the girls were training to be EMT's, till the boys saved that little girl we had no idea the oldest boys were volunteer firefighters (Josh did it as well for about 6 months John David still is one).

Anonymous said...

Dabbling in Photography, shopping for the family, verbalizing that a daughter might want to be a teacher, etc do not careers make. These are answers Michelle throws out when asked about the future of her daughters.

From what I hear, Jana is just not that good on the harp. She could be, but it would probably require her leaving home and going somewhere else to study. Likewise teaching career, photographer. Making little skirts out of EMS pants does not constitute a career.

A career and development of a talent requires a long-term commitment and those girls would not be able to make that because mama needs them to look after her offspring. What frustration.

Josh and John David are boys. They are supposed to have money- making ventures. They have to support their wives. Wouldn't it be nice if these women would all be treated as equals and be allowed to nurture, develop and hone whatever talent, aptitudes or leanings they may have and contribute to their families.

Cyn said...

Thank you! The older Duggar girls are not merely "doing chores" around the house to help out

True. Every child in the house from toddler hood on up has things to do around that house.

I can't see where any one child is doing any more or less work (for their age and size) than any other child.

Their laundry is done by several people from the boys going around and gathering it, to some one making the soap, some one throwing a load in, transferring a load to the dryer then 2-5 steps to the bins and the clothes racks. They also have a non family member that comes over once a week and helps them.

All the kids do "clean sweeps" to pick up toys and items on the floor and out of place several times a day. All the kids clean up after meals, and half the time I'm quite sure there are more helpers than they need when cooking meals as well.

The Jurisdictions swap every few weeks or months, so it's not like one person does only that one job forever. At this point all Michelle and the older ones have to do is check just to make sure the younger ones did their jobs. (as we saw on the last episodes)

Example:
IF Jana has the play room and the dining room as her "Jurisdiction" on her 'team' she has 4 younger siblings each with their own "chores" in those rooms.
1 kid does the sweeping and the swifting (mopping), 1 kid wipes the tables, and dusting, 1 picks up the toys and other items out of place, oldest one checks to make sure the chores are done.

Other than cleaning the windows and maybe a yearly cleaning of the light fixtures and the like what's left to do? Other rooms and things around the house can be broken down the same way, and we've seen them doing it. Many hands REALLY does make for light work.

Cyn said...

Making little skirts out of EMS pants does not constitute a career.
*******************
Making the skirts for the uniform tells me they made the squad, and would need them for the formal occasions.

Why not dabble in various things until you find one you like? If you don't have to go to work for a living or have to do 4 years of college you may or may not need for a job you may or may not even want at the end. Why not spend less money and gain more experience actually trying it out and shadowing people in different professions? (as they have stated they encourage, and the girls talked about in recent episodes)

Jana turns 21 in January, Jill is 19, Jessa just turned 18 in Nov, and Jinger became 17 two weeks ago. At 17 and 18 the youngest two would still be in public high school due to their birthdays probably a junior and a senior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_Kids_and_Counting#Children

Jessa is the one that said she liked being the teacher not Michelle. We've seen Jinger's work with a camera as she did some of the publicity shots for that politician (several months back). I don't know many 16 yr old girls taking photos for politicians even small town local ones.

All I was trying to point out is, we do see individuality among the siblings, as well as similarity.

roddma said...

"If they really did not want to be there they would not be there being most of the older ones are over 18."
We dont know what is in their hearts. Maybe they want to leave but feel guilty about leaving the house in chaos or dont know how to leave. During the wedding episode, Michelle needed the girls back home. Obviously she cant function without at least two of them around. Lots of people live(d) at home who didn't want to be.

"True. Every child in the house from toddler hood on up has things to do around that house"
If so how come the older boys leave things lying around like smelly onions and never take down Christmas decorations? I have never seen them help in the way of cooking or laundry. I think while the rest were in LR ,they ate at Josh's a lot. Cant they fry a burger? It seems there is a cut off age of chores for boys.

"I for one would be very sad to see one of the oldest ones pushed into going to college or out of the house simply to please the blogs and the rest of the world. "
While I feel bad for those pushed to be overachievers, it is sadder when they are denied higher education to please religious beliefs. If this kind of thinking keeps up, high school will not be important. Many of us would love these chances that are being denied them.
"They interact with their community, and communities in other states and other countries." Big difference in fellowship/interacting and actually being friends
Not that impressed Josh and John David have their own business. Anyone cant rent a business-big waste of money. no way Jim Bob would give them a business or someone so young could buy one.

Anonymous said...

It seems some want to hang onto the belief that the life preparation given the Duggar kids is equal to that of non-Duggarville schooling and socialization.

IMO, the fact that the Duggar children 'graduate' from high school at 16 yet, at 20, they remain homebound with little real life experience tells the tale.

Let me know if/when ANY Duggar child graduates from a ranked college and successfully lands & performs well in a decent-paying job in the real world.

Until then, to these eyes it seems pretty obvious they are being set up to live in eternal emotional/educational/financial childhood. Sadly, the Duggar parents seem to see this as a measure of their parenting excellence and expertise.

Lamentable.

Anonymous said...

"Wouldn't it be nice if these women would all be treated as equals and be allowed to nurture, develop and hone whatever talent, aptitudes or leanings they may have and contribute to their families."

For all we know, the girls ARE being allowed to do just that. Michelle has repeatedly said that the girls "hearts are in homemaking." Whether that is because they are trained to do so from birth and discouraged from anything else we just do not know.

I know I won't change the minds of those who are convinced that the girls do too much and run the entire house, but I'd like to point out that statements like "the girls do everything" and "the girls run the house" and "the girls are surrogate moms" and "the girls can't have lives outside the house because Michelle won't let them" are speculation without evidence. I think an interesting point was made by another poster that the girls lack of outside careers is probably due not to their household responsibilities but more from Duggar family values, maybe from Gothard teachings, who knows. If the Duggars had only the older kids and none of the youngers, would the girls be doing anything different? I suspect they'd probably be doing much the same as they are now, due simply to this particular family value.

Also, I don't think that the girls being assigned with buddy duties is taking advantage of them any more than another family is taking advantage of their children by assigning them to wash dishes, or take out the trash, or do laundry, or clean a bathroom, or any other chores that parents usually require of their children. We don't wait for children to "volunteer" to do these chores, we just tell them that's their job to pull their weight around the house. How are buddy assignments any different than this? A child is assigned to help a younger one get dressed in the morning, help get food at mealtimes, help them with some schoolwork, help get bathed and pj's on at night. If this is all it is, that isn't overmuch.

None of us choose which family we're born into, and different jobs come with different families. Children born into a ranching family are going to have ranching duties that would make other children run for the hills. Kids born into a large family are going to have family duties that might seem unreasonable to others.

The point is, that each family is different and that's the way it should be. Just as there's more than one way to skin a cat, there's more than one way to raise a family and be successful at it. The diversity and individuality of different families passing on different things to their kids I think is a good thing and makes the world the vibrant place that it is.

Anonymous said...

"Let me know if/when ANY Duggar child graduates from a ranked college and successfully lands & performs well in a decent-paying job in the real world.

Until then, to these eyes it seems pretty obvious they are being set up to live in eternal emotional/educational/financial childhood."

There are many other ways to measure a successful life than this. If this were the main criteria for whether a child has graduated from emotional, educational, and financial childhood, then the majority of people have failed at this, because the majority of people don't graduate from a ranked university followed by a high-paying job.

Success is measured in different ways by different people, and there's nothing wrong with this. Regardless of what one thinks of the way the Duggars raise their kids, I don't see how a case can be made that they keep their kids in emotional/educational/financial childhood. The older kids have shown responsibility and capableness at their young ages that amazes me. Leaving home to go to college or a job isn't the only way in life to demonstrate maturity.

Kelly said...

To Anon. 9:13am: Well put! That is exactly what I was thinking, but I couldn't put it into words.

Anonymous said...

The intended point was less about 'how to measure success in life' than to address an earlier post claiming the Duggars demonstrate individuality.

JMO, the 'individuality' shown in the Duggar household is confined on the level of 'some of us like peas, while others of us are allowed to like carrots'. This does not qualify as encouraging individuality on my scale.

Cookie cutter/lockstep: same hairstyles, same dress, same basic acceptance without thought given to all matters of religion and life.

Individuality, IMO, has to have much broader boundaries. Start with the 'do's: seems unlikely that THAT many women in any given household, given a choice, would continue to choose their FATHER's fave, that 1980's really-bad-perm frizzed long hair. It'd be more realistic if some of the girls chose to go short/show some style with their hair. Ditto the boys: the Duggars all wear bible-salesmen chopped hair (JBD vainly includes an industrial strength dose of hair spray). Out of 11 males in that home, not ONE of them has ever chosen a different hair look????

Out of 19 kids, several of them now adults, not ONE has even ONE thought that varies from the parental religious views???

Of all the kids who 'graduated' from high school several YEARS earlier, only ONE has moved out and on, albeit within arm's reach of the Duggar parents.

None of the 'graduates' have chosen to live on campus at a ranked college? Not even a 'christian' college?

Mrs. D's statement that 'homemaking is in the hearts of the girls' is sadly simplistic. Statistically it is extremely unlikely that out of 9 girls in a householed, not a one of them has ever claimed wanting to a) remain single, b) marry but forego having children, c) seek a college education required career?

What I have seen to date of the Duggars, individuality is too scary for all, especially the parents, who seem to believe the only way to heaven is to follow in the EXACT same footprints as the parents have chosen.

I find this sad.

Anonymous said...

I'm female. I have a college degree, some grad school, and a career, and a family. I went away to college at barely 18. I was terrified and really didnt' want to go. I would have loved to have had the opportunity that the Duggars girls have of staying at home and trying out different opportunities. And I'm have loved to be a stay-home mom. I think they are very lucky to have the opportunity and the loving parents that allow them to stay at home, and not rush them out. Why rush things?

Allison said...

Just wanted to share that TLC announced via the 19 Kids and Counting Facebook page that new episodes are returning on February 1st.

Anonymous said...

There are WORSE fates than being 'afraid' in a new situation (i.e. going away to college). Often conquering just this kind of fear is the most growthful part of life.

My experience was the opposite. Raised in a devoutly Catholic home where women were going to be a) nuns (the best/holiest option), b) a wife and mom (if a wife, then always also a mom), or c) single ('old maids').

Even though the daughters in the household qualified for and performed very well in advanced college prep programs all through Catholic school, our parents considered college 'a four year loaf on the old man's dough'. We were discouraged from going to college because 'some nice man is going to come along and take care of you and you'll never use your college degree'. We girls were told to 'take a typing class because you can always get a job typing.'

I, too, would've been uneasy facing the unknown of going away to college, however, with some encouragement from my parents, I now know I would've passed through the 'afraid' stage and would have been a stronger, more well rounded person for that experience.

I love children. I loved being married. My expectation was that I'd be a part of a forever happy marriage, just like my parents enjoyed. Alas, life had other plans for me, and my husband left when our two sons were babies. I had to find a way to support myself and make a home for two little tiny boys.

Typing jobs are low paying. High school educated job searchers are a dime/dozen. It was TOUGH in a way I'm sure my mom never understood, since she was fully supported her entire adult life by her husband.

I went to college later. It was difficult being 'the old lady' with a bunch of 19 year olds, but I did it. The jobs I have gotten thanks to my college education have paid so much better than any of the blue collar jobs my parents encouraged their daughters to go after.

One hopes for the best but no one ever really knows what lies just around the corner. With that lived-through-it knowledge, I feel it is a huge disservice to offspring to not provide an education and whatever encouragement is needed to help 18 year olds make the transition to college. Being afraid about new experiences is a part of life - parents do best by their kids to encourage them to stretch and grow through their fears.

I feel sorry for the Duggar kids - they are being parented in a way that leaves them at a disadvantage unless they happen to get the very life their mother has gotten.

JMO.

Anonymous said...

Although I may not agree with a good percentage of the posters, I do most humbly wish you the very best the New Year has to offer.

At the end of the day, our own lives and those of our loved ones are most important.

This blog has provided a certain outlet for me because of my life experiences, but I will save that for another day.

Happy New Year to the mods and to all of the posters.

Anonymous said...

Happy 12th Birthday Jedidiah - 30
Happy 12th Birthday Jeremiah - 30

the twins celebrated their birthday in June. they did what is called a Half Bday celebration.

It was started for kids who have winter bdays, which in the winter you can't do much. when snow is on the ground.
So this year the boys ask their parents for a half bday.
So they could have a pool party.

That is why we saw the eppy of the pool party.
then when there real bday comes, they just have the dinner and one on one time with mom and dad.

I did this too as my bday is in Jan. going to your lake cabin in jan. just isnt that fun.
so the next year I did the half bday, and we went back to the lake cabin and had a great time.

Anonymous said...

"Let me know if/when ANY Duggar child graduates from a ranked college and successfully lands & performs well in a decent-paying job in the real world.

Until then, to these eyes it seems pretty obvious they are being set up to live in eternal emotional/educational/financial childhood."




So I guess since I am in the Army, I am nothing. even though I haven't been able to go to school, via I AM over there fighting for your Freedom.
I am being paid great, and I Didn't go to college

I find your view to be very narrow and insulating to those of us that serve our nation. which is you

roddma said...

'Leaving home to go to college or a job isn't the only way in life to demonstrate maturity."
Spreading your wings in the big scary world shows maturity. Life is uncertain these days. You cant live under the protective covering of your parents always. I guess Amy still lives at home but she is allowed to spread her wings. It seems education is getting devalued these days in favor of 'skills'.