Free Discussion April 2011

Please use this for Duggar sightings, speculation, or general discussion. Note that this is Duggar discussion not other families, TV shows, or personal stories. Thank you!

108 comments:

SuzanneDeAZ said...

There has been discussion about the Duggar children not joining any of the military services. Does any one know that is something that they take a stand against or at this time none of the children 18 or older has any desire to join?

butterfly said...

I have wondered about that myself. I thought I had heard Jim Bob make some patriotic statements in a radio show, and he is very politically active, (conservatively none the less) so it would seem to me that he wouldn't be anti-military per se, as to the children (or should we say any of the male children) having any desire to join, I am indeed curious. I think it would be great if at least 1 Duggar served their country in the Armed Forces. We have quite a few very conservatives serving, so they would fit right in :)

ennvee said...

I've heard from other people who followed Gothard that they are discouraged from joining the military because their commanding officers might not be Christians. You would think that with all their overt patriotism (don't have to go any farther than the masthead of their website) that you would see at least one son of the Duggars or any of their friends who have been on the show in the military. Yet, not a single young man has joined up. Answering to non-Christians appears to be the only reason that makes sense. I guess that's what the ALERT Academy is for; a hybrid of Boy Scouts and military for the young men who lead the younger boys.

That said, I guess they really have to look into the VFDs they join; what if the chief is off, the next in charge is Catholic or Jewish or an atheist and the kids have to take direction from him? From what I've read, they probably would not join that particular department.

Tammy C said...

Anybody look at this picture and wonder if the baby is Josie!

http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/

I hope not for her sake.

Allison said...

No, it looks like Mackynzie to me. She travels a ton with the Duggar family.

questions1 said...

What about medical staff who aren't Christians? If the Duggar family as Gothard followers have concerns about their son's going into the military because some of the leadership may not be Christian, I wonder how they feel about all the medical care their family has received? Certainly the various medical research staffs and hospital staffs who have been so vitally important in their lives are not all Christian - some may believe in no religion at all. If it's about saving Duggar lives, do the religious beliefs of others become less important?

Religilicious said...

Such incredible ignorance and arrogance to propose (or even tolerate) a belief system that discourages working for (military) non Christians.

Let us hope this is not true of the Duggars.

This is the kind of mentality that leads to useless wars, where each side claims equal moral righteousness. Haven't we had enough of this in human history?

Until proven otherwise, I will give the Duggars the benefit of the doubt on being more enlightened than this.

ennvee said...

I've also questioned the hospital angle; I agree that they may well have had doctors and nurses who were not Christians.

I think if the person saves a Duggar life, whether it be Jim Bob's or Josie's, they're okay with it. In their minds, it follows their main political platform of "pro-life." I think Michelle obliquely talked about this when Josie was in the hospital, giving the same vague answer when asked about how she felt about President Obama, a person with whom they vehemently disagree (remember the "Obamacare" ambulance in Josh's lot on an episode around primary election time last year?): "We pray for their steady hands/guidance..." essentially fill in the last word and that sentence can go a long way without saying much at all.

Celestie said...

FFrom reading other Gothard, Vision Forum family blogs, I get the idea that mixing with other people of other beliefs, as one would in the military, is dangerous as those beliefs might "leak" out onto your children. I think there is also the question of men and women working together, (women doing men's work and visa versa) possibly of exposure to nudity, swearing, drinking, smoking and wild, wild "wimmen."

I don't see any of the Duggars standing up to defend their country. Some people like to talk patriotism, but will let others fight, just like some let medical people save their lives, but refuse to educate their children to help others. People like these give the appearance to be takers, not givers.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The remark about people being takers and givers can not be labeled easily as takers and givers come in all sorts of packages. Just because someone does not join the military does not mean they are "takers" and not givers. YOu can give without joining the service.

The Duggars certainly are givers. They give freely of their time and means. They give a lot more than what is shown in the shows. We must be careful not to label them takers just because they may not choose to join the service. I have never joined the service, but like my mother, I feel I am a giver.

Just another thought. We all can not be just givers. Some of us have to be takers or there will be no reason to have givers. As we have discussed the Duggars have received at one time in their life some bags of used clothing left on their porch. At that time of their life perhaps they fit into the category of "takers", but as they grew older as a family they became "givers".

Every day I see people switch roles. I have seen very stable hard working people with good income suddenly in the role as "takers" as they have lost their jobs and now need some outside assistance. Nothing wrong with being a "taker" as without takers we would not have the privildge to play the role as a giver.

Lisa said...

Don't forget though that Jana, John and Jill are on the volunteer fire dept. So they have been trained to help people at least in that way.

Religilicious said...

"From reading other Gothard, Vision Forum family blogs, I get the idea that mixing with other people of other beliefs, as one would in the military, is dangerous as those beliefs might "leak" out onto your children. I think there is also the question of men and women working together, (women doing men's work and visa versa) possibly of exposure to nudity, swearing, drinking, smoking and wild, wild "wimmen."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since the Duggars seem so convinced that their beliefs are the only 'right' ones, it's surprising that, with their strength of conviction about this, they have such incredible fear about exposing their children to the larger world, as if their children will become contaminated or catch a differing belief as if that belief is a communicable disease.

If they are SO sure of their beliefs, why do assume their belief system is so very fragile and vulnerable? Why do they display such a lack of faith in their own children?

Seems nonsensical IMO.

Celestie said...

ust because someone does not join the military does not mean they are "takers" and not givers. YOu can give without joining the service.

_____
The Duggars and other Gothard/Vision Forum people have the right to free speech, to homeschool their kids, to have as many kids as they like, to tote guns and all of the other freedoms, we enjoy as Americans, but they do not seem to want their sons (or daughters) to defend those rights. Baking cookies for the fire department, doesn't fall under the "defending your country" banner. It is nice they do this, and nice that one of the boys, goes out to fight fires. In this they are givers, but for defending our country, they are seemingly takers. "Let someone else do it while we build up our personal wealth and procreate." I would be very interested to know if any of the "fundie" people have ever had a son or daughter (or themselves) join any branch of the military.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Again I still believe just because a person does not serve in the military does not mean they are takers. There are many families that I know that have no one for generations in any of the military services and then there are families like mine who have almost of all of their males serve in a branch some even serving in wars. I do not feel just cause our family has many who have served any more of a giver than those who have chosen not to have any of their members serve.

The Duggars are free to serve and choose their way of giving. Sure they may not be defending our freedom with their sons serving but they serve others by other means and ways.

The end of the book has not been written. It is very possible with all of those boys that some of the younger ones may choose to serve. And if none of them serve do we judge them as "takers" or do we let the judging to God? I know many families like Quaker or Amish that do not send their sons to the military yet for the most part the public do not make such harsh statements about them such as "Let someone else do it while we build up our personal wealth and procreate."

roddma said...

"Again I still believe just because a person does not serve in the military does not mean they are takers."
So true. I think the point most posters are making about the military is choice and dealing with different kinds of people.
There are ways of 'giving back' without putting your life at risk. Saying everyone mustjoin the military and give back seems of the Duggar nature of saying everyone must procreate. Its kinda like saying to protect our neighborhoods we must all be police.

msrylee said...

While it may be a harsh statement, the truth of the matter is that the Duggars let others defend their rights while building their own personal wealth and procreating.

IMHO, if the Duggars think their religious beliefs are fitting for their family, then why not encourage the blessings to go out into the world. The blessings should be able to discern right from wrong, and act accordingly. Do Jim Bob and Michelle fear that their blessings will stray from the family beliefs and standards? If the foundation of their beliefs is strong and secure, there should be no reason to not 'allow' them to test the 'worldly' waters.

I wonder if the parents are very concerned that one or more of their blessings will learn about different beliefs and lifestyles, and decide to not follow the Duggar ways. While I believe that the older blessings may not leave the Duggar ways, the younger ones may do just that. They have been exposed to the media, travelled a great deal, and have had different childhoods than the older ones. JMHO.

roddma said...

"While it may be a harsh statement, the truth of the matter is that the Duggars let others defend their rights while building their own personal wealth and procreating."
Couldn't this be said about all of us sitting at our computers? Maybe we should all join the military if the Duggars must join it.I wouldn't want them running off to join the navy ebcause everyone says they should. It is like college. If you want to do it fine. The Duggar kids are still young so lets give them the benefit of the doubt like the College plus thing. I hope it isn't just for PR.

msrylee said...

My intent wasn't that all the Duggars should join the military services. They have the freedom of choice, as do I. I realize that several of the blessings are young, and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As to the college issue, I also hope it isn't just for PR. I will wait and see how many, if any, of the Duggars join the services.

msrylee said...

I also meant to add to my previous post that I am willing to wait and see how many of the Duggars complete their college educations. As someone posted earlier, the book hasn't been completed either.

ennvee said...

Amazon has the new Duggar book up for pre-orders.

http://www.amazon.com/Love-That-Multiplies-Up-Close-View/dp/1439183813/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302291924&sr=1-2

The chapter title that intrigues me most is "Jim Bob's Lifelong Hobby." I'm guessing it's his hair. :)

At any rate, the book looks to be another stab at damage control; can't wait to hear how they explain dating and the Classroom of Life.

butterfly said...

roddma said...
"While it may be a harsh statement, the truth of the matter is that the Duggars let others defend their rights while building their own personal wealth and procreating."
Couldn't this be said about all of us sitting at our computers?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
NO roddma it couldn't be said of ALL of us - I am active duty. Thank you.

roddma said...

"NO roddma it couldn't be said of ALL of us - I am active duty. Thank you."
I meant that for the ones not serving who think the Duggar kids should serve. I didnt word it right It is an honor to serve but no one should be forced into it. This topic is getting out of hand.

Sharla said...

So yes, the military service for the Duggars is now a "dead horse." This is why frequently we don't allow certain topics or cut off the discussion. The Duggars bring out certain issues and the discussion wanders away from the Duggars, gets personal, or turns into a snippy argument.

Cyn said...

Re Duggar bag of clothes:

I can't find anywhere where Michelle said she got a bag of clothes, now I freely admit I don't have my book with me in TN, but I also seem to remember the Bates were the ones talking about getting clothes.

In the other TLC shows where they had multiple families of multiple children, a few of those talked about getting clothing dropped off on their front porch. I know the Jeub family talked about it. So did the ones building the "Bachi" court, or what ever it was for the dad's B-day.

I know they have accepted help from people with laundry, moving, home schooling, painting and the like, and they in turn help others. Yes I know they also accepted gifts from TLC, and various product placements. They have also sent items back to fans as well. I just can't find the bags of clothing comment or statement.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

It is possible that the Duggars were not the ones who had bags of clothes left on their porche. Even if they did, if the bags were left there most likely they were not even asked for, just that others who know of large families sometimes feel they rather pass their hand me downs to a given family rather than to the Goodwill.

In any case I do not think it is an important issue if they did or did not receive bags of clothing as this family has shown that they would have been able to dress their children with or without the bags.

Religilicious said...

"In any case I do not think it is an important issue if they did or did not receive bags of clothing as this family has shown that they would have been able to dress their children with or without the bags."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If not an important issue, WHY so many defenses for receiving bags of clothing?

Looking at pics of the Duggar pre-TLC lifestyle, I would have to disagree with the last statement. All those poor kids dressed in those hopelessly tacky look-alike dresses (from another century), pre-owned shoes on their feet, with their look-alike hair ("because daddy likes our hair like this"), all crammed into that tired-looking teeny, tiny rental house/school - far too many blessings per square feet of home/school; far too many blessings per clothing budget dollar IMO.

Theirs is not an example I'd ever choose to follow. I am NOT 'encouraged'.

msrylee said...

I agree that the issue of the bag or bags of clothing given to the Duggar family has resulted in several defensive comments. IMO, this issue should be put to rest on the 'dead horse' pile.

Sugarpop said...

I am joining in later here, so I understand if this comment isn't published, but I decided to write it anyway.

Becoming an elected official is one way of serving your country. Jim Bob was a state senator, and as we recently saw, John David ran for (but lost) an alderman position. There are many ways to serve one's country that don't involve military service.

Not joining the military because you could find yourself in a conflict with authority because their belief system is different than yours is a valid concern. Religious conviction can make a huge difference in the choices someone makes and the risks they take. If you are required to do as your commanding officer says, no matter what, and your commanding officer is giving you a command that is against your moral beliefs, there could be serious consequences for not following that order.

Religilicious said...

"Not joining the military because you could find yourself in a conflict with authority because their belief system is different than yours is a valid concern."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


When acting as a public servant as in politics, individuals are expected to uphold some legislation that has received by voter approval. With the Duggars' ultra conservative views, how is this political situation any different than having to obey military orders that may differ from personal beliefs?

Kit said...

how is this political situation any different than having to obey military orders that may differ from personal beliefs?

For that matter, how is it different from having a job anywhere? Which is why Gothard adherents tend to emphasize self-employment over other kinds of work. And why they all tend to work for each other, if they're not working for themselves. Just another way of keeping that control intact.

ennvee said...

JimBob and Michelle with Gil and Kelly Bates selling IFB/Gothardism to the Catholic politicians in San Salvador. I'm sorry, but to me if Jesus Christ if your Lord and Savior of Choice, you're a Christian. Leave them alone already.

http://gilbatesfamily.com/blog/

More College Plus! news.

http://www.examiner.com/19-kids-and-counting-in-national/six-duggar-children-from-19-kids-counting-begin-college-studies

Love the comment that they forgot Jordyn's enrollment status.

Cyn said...

I'm glad Michelle finally got to go and help, it's always JimBob going with the kids.

It also looks like the Bates' were moved to want to help more as well.

I wonder if Nathan Bates will end up as a missionary down there helping with SOS ministries...

Cyn said...

The comment was saying the poster forgot Jordyn in the list of children the Duggars have. Joy-Anna and Josiah are the youngest kids that could be taking even the college prep classes.

This part though answers a lot of questions that people were having about the labs and what not:

Jill’s declared major is BSN (nursing). She’s working with her personal coach and earning all of her general education credits. Jill’s CP degree consultant is going to structure her degree template that will include on-site classes, labs and clinicals at a local regionally accredited college.

ennvee said...

I'm glad you took the time to actually do the research. I've read a lot of other Duggar fan sites and they believe that College Plus! (can't forget the exclamation point :D ) is a full-degree program with accreditation.

Fact of the matter is that most 4 year colleges won't take more than 60-70 units, or the equivalent of lower division work, which should have some pre-reqs completed towards the major. In Jill's case, she is going to have to take biology, chemistry, and micro-biology (at minimum) labs somewhere before she can transfer as a junior into a brick and mortar school.

CLEPing one's way through important classes such as psychology or economics seems to me kind of a rip off; both are great classes to get a mind thinking critically. Studying strictly for a test without discourse at the college level (especially for kids as sheltered as the Duggars) cheats them in a way because with the Christian slant, they won't be exposed to both sides of issues. MHO.

Religilicious said...

"19 Kids and Counting (TLC)
- 1.211 million viewers
- 0.9/1 HH
- 0.5/1 A18-49"

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

How low do you think ratings will have to go before we are spared any further Duggar episodes?

Jennib395 said...

"Joy-Anna and Josiah are the youngest kids that could be taking even the college prep classes. "


HUH!!! Joy-anna is what 14?? that is eighth grade not college prep.
15 yrs old is freshman, 16 sophmore, 17 junior and then 18yrs old senior. That is the normal ages for classes. My parents are both teachers.
Why should Joy take pre college classes when she should just be taking 8th grade or even 9th grade classe!
I know Home school kids do skip some grades or they go super fast and do 8th and 9th all in one year. Which truth is, if they dont have a real tutor, they aren't really learning everything 8th grade or whatever grade has to offer.
I hope Joy isn't in a senior grade level already. I wish kids would stop skipping out on life by moving ahead to the next grade. Or like doing college classes as a junior. Do middle school in middle school, hs in hs and college in college. Seen to many kids that in hs were in such a hurry to do college courses, they missed out on hs life. Then got to college and had enough credits for 2 of the 4 years. So only 2 years of college life.
Kids need to slow down and enjoy that time when they are young and free.
I hope the duggars are doing that. I think they are, but not sure?
Of course you don't have to go to college! But I am not going to get on the older girls back about college until they are 23 years old. If by then they dont have a degree or aren't almost finished with one. Then I will get to harping on them.

Cyn said...

JoyAnna is 13, The Duggars graduate at 16-17, that would put Joy at either freshman, or sophomore depending on how well she is doing. Our local public high schools have several AP classes that qualify for college credit, English, Math, Science, History, and I think there is a music class (I know they bus a few music students to the community college just can't remember if it's AP classes or not). They are open to freshmen on up.

We the public, have spent years giving the Duggars grief for the lack of higher education, what I'm not understanding is now that the Duggars are actually getting a higher education we give them grief over the WAY they are doing it.

We may not like the method, and we certainly may not like the company they are using, but they are learning; in order to actually earn credits they will have to take tests, labs, clinics, and what not else at a college. Whether or not that college accepts 30 credits, or 60 credits, the colleges ARE accepting them which means at some point they have done college work. They may never get a degree, but they will have more knowledge, and they are continueing to learn.

While watching cable I see ads for several different long distance learning classes and colleges, The Ivy League schools offer classes, I've even heard the news media discussing how great the idea is. I do realize that the ones the Duggars are using are NOT on par with the "Ivy league", but at the same time thousands of people are doing the same thing in their own homes, around other jobs, and instead of pricier colleges. From high school graduates, to 40 somethings trying to get better jobs, to 60 somethings simply wanting to learn something new. Why do we praise some but condemn the Duggars for it?

Kit said...

Studying strictly for a test without discourse at the college level (especially for kids as sheltered as the Duggars) cheats them in a way because with the Christian slant, they won't be exposed to both sides of issues.

Precisely why the Gothard followers love CollegePlus! Why, if young adults were exposed to radically different points of view, they might...why, they just might realize there's more than one way to live your life and still be a good person! Better to keep them in the box with the lid on tight as long as possible...

I hold the opinion many others have expressed here, that if you can't trust your ADULT children to be out in the world, you either haven't done a very good job of "raising them up in the way they should go," or you've constricted them so much that they can't wait to be free. Either way, it's a sad commentary on "the Gothard way," that you always have to have someone essentially spying on you (either a parent or a chaperone or a spouse) to ensure you stay between the lines.

Religilicious said...

We have no praise for the Duggar way of offering 'college' to their offspring because college is supposed to be about broadening one's horizons, spawning creativity and new ways of looking at the world and all its issues. It's about becoming aware of new ideologies and being capable of weighing these ideologies to find one's self and defining one's own collection of beliefs and ideals. It's about appreciating the great diversity in people with the realization that, though their lifestyle and beliefs may vary vastly from one's own, they are as worthy of trust, respect and the title of 'ethical' as those in one's previous extremely tight little circle. It's about learning to effectively and articulately communicating and working with a broad spectrum of people and ideas.

College Plus! is a bargain only to the likes of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, who do not seem to understand the main purpose of higher education.

Cyn said...

Having never been to college, I can safely say that I have learned all those things you listed by living my life in the world.

Same way my children will, same way the Duggars will.

IF my kids want college they can pay for it... I won't sign papers, I won't agree to loans, I'm not giving them my finicial information to help them get loans either.... They've known this since they were little, and they have figured out ways to get what they want without having to do a 4 year out of state college.

That may be the difference... I will never think college is the be all end all people think it is, especially after watching friends go thousands and thousands in debt, to come out and make the same amount of money I do, without the large bills to pay back... 20 years later they make only slightly more than us.

ennvee said...

Keep in mind that the places seen on TV are all for-profit entities. Vocational training is disappearing from community colleges, at least where I live, so these kind of places will clean up if you want to become a dental assistant or mechanic.

As far as University of Phoenix, etc. do a little digging. Those places are far more expensive than attending a regular college or grad school and only a handful carry full accreditation. They're convenient for people at a company who need a master's to get ahead in that company (oftentimes the company will take on part of the employee's tuition), or work full time and are confident that this degree is worth the money.

Of all the Duggar kids noted, only Josh is employed, but not to the point where he couldn't take off two days a week and take a mixture of online and brick and mortar classes to get his lower-division pre-reqs. done. If he's seriously considering law, he is going to need a LOT of work with his writing skills. I got a headache the last time I tried to read his website.

Religilicious said...

Upon further consideration, I'd also like to add to my previous post that if the Duggars' home schooling was all that JimBob and Michelle claim it to be, all these baby steps from 'graduation' through the yrs leading up to their children's twenties, would be unnecessary.

The Duggars just do not seem to get it when it comes to education. True education is all about broadening one's perspective. All the Duggars are willing to do is give multiple doses of the same constricted 'information' and then have it rotely repeated back to them - this, then, is considered 'success'. This, then, is considered being 'educated'. I disagree with the Duggar view and apparent definition of preparing their children for success in the real world.

Allison said...

A rep from CollegePlus answers some questions about the girls' college experience. Apparently they really will be required to attend courses at a real college.

http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/degrees-for-kids.html

Scroll down for answers from Caitlin.

Religilicious said...

"If my kids want college they can pay for it... I won't sign papers, I won't agree to loans, I'm not giving them my finicial information to help them get loans either....

I will never think college is the be all end all people think it is, especially after watching friends go thousands and thousands in debt, to come out and make the same amount of money I do, without the large bills to pay back... 20 years later they make only slightly more than us."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I can appreciate the stand that it is not necessarily solely the parents' responsibility to completely fund their children's college.

However, there ARE college co-op programs, which allow students to help pay their own way through school, with the ADDED benefit of the Duggar mantra about trying out work related to your chosen field (not just the Duggar-style 'shadowing' a mentor) prior to committing an entire college experience to that particular field. Why is it the Duggars never seem to acknowledge this possibility for their children?

Not ALL college grads end up gravely in debt and earning little more than non-college grads any more than ALL non-college, self employed people end up financially well set with a happy life. As in most things in life, there are far more complex issues involved in determining long term outcomes. The Duggars do not seem, in general, to do well at the complexities in life, sticking instead, to a simplistic and constricted view of and approach to life, IMO.

While I agree that a college education is not the be-all and end-all for everyone, when the economy tanks and the job market is extremely competitive, a college degree puts an individual at a distinct advantage, as that one factor is sometimes just the FIRST screening employers use when trying to narrow down a large field of applicants.

Alice said...

Duggars do seem less complex than some families I know. May be the secret to their success. Depending on how you measure success. Happy kids who love the Lord=success, to them. Can we be happy for them?

Christopher said...

As far as the whole college thing goes, I wouldn't even pretend to have a clue, but when it comes to the military apparently James wants to be a Navy pilot.

http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/19-kids-and-counting/about-duggar-family-pictures7.htm

Obviously he's still young, but I think it's decent evidence that his parents are ok with it, if they permitted it to be published.

Also, only 5 of their children are above the age of 18. Less than one percent of the American population has ever served in the military (2.4 million active duty/guard/reserves and 2 million vets/retirees out of 307 million americans). Once they have over 100 kids 18 and up, then we can gripe over no service members.

http://askville.amazon.com/percentage-Americans-serve-military/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=61689610

However, to be fair it is probably safe to assume that they would be opposed to their daughters serving in a combat role.

Religilicious said...

Duggars do seem less complex than some families I know. May be the secret to their success. Depending on how you measure success. Happy kids who love the Lord=success, to them. Can we be happy for them?

********************************

My opinion is: when the 'kids' are still on a journey to nowhere near adulthood, unable to create even a coherent business website, the answer is 'no'.

"The Lord helps those who help themselves." It's ok to 'love the lord', but the Duggars need to let their kids grow up in a way that also includes the skills to achieve a happy and successful meld into the real world.

Alice said...

My opinion is: when the 'kids' are still on a journey to nowhere near adulthood, unable to create even a coherent business website, the answer is 'no'.

"The Lord helps those who help themselves." It's ok to 'love the lord', but the Duggars need to let their kids grow up in a way that also includes the skills to achieve a happy and successful meld into the real world.

****************

"The Lord helps those who help themselves"--not sure who you are quoting, but they had it almost right. The Lord helps those who ask, those whose voice he "knows."

Again, I haven't seen how they don't "meld" into the real world. What world are they living in? The successes they have achieved and are achieving do not look like your success. That is probably fine with them!

Cyn said...

"God helps those who help themselves" is probably the most often quoted phrase that is not found in the Bible. This saying is usually attributed to Ben Franklin, quoted in Poor Richard's Almanac in 1757. In actuality, it originated from Algernon Sydney in 1698 in an article titled Discourses Concerning Government.

Religilicious said...

Since no author was claimed, it is nonsensical to state "the lord helps those who help themselves" is 'almost right'. The statement stands on its own, and the point is entirely missed by anyone who attempts to attach a biblical context to every thought, word, and deed. It matters not if St. Paul made this statement, or if it was Paul Revere who wrote it.

This is not the place to debate 'literal' interpretation of the bible (WHOSE is the correct and 'real' interpretation has been bantered back and forth ad nauseum. Let's just not go there.)

What is 'success'? To each, her own. It is my opinion the Duggars fall short on several levels according to my own measure, because they go so far in keeping their children child-like, devoid of any apparent critical thinking skills or creativity. The Duggars have raised their children to be carbon copies, parrot-like in their recitation of worn, cliche platitudes. If this qualifies as 'success' in their mind, so be it, but some hold higher standards than such stifling and simplistic parenting.

ennvee said...

It's cute that Jamesey-bug wants to become a Navy pilot, but let's not forget, John David wanted to become a pilot in the Air Force. Research was done regarding the requirements to become a pilot in today's military and a college degree (likely in engineering, computer science or another technical field) is required before a candidate can set foot in a cockpit.

The Duggars have Joseph and all of those boys down to Jackson who will need to find their places in the world (and since the males stay close to home, it will be a tight, maybe even competitive world for them). IMO, by the time that group of boys comes of age, especially the younger ones, the Duggars will all of sudden be okay with their sons joining the military; it will be "something that God laid on their hearts" or some such nonsense because there won't be enough home business opportunities to support them all in such a small community.

Allison said...

The so-called "future goals" have been up on the TLC website for at least 2 years. Jinger wants to be a chef? Jessa wants to be a beautician? Riiiight.

Religilicious said...

The so-called "future goals" have been up on the TLC website for at least 2 years. Jinger wants to be a chef? Jessa wants to be a beautician? Riiiight.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How many years beyond their high school 'graduation' are Jana, Jill, Jess, and Jinger at this point?

If the Duggar home schooling program is as excellent as Mr. and Mrs. D believe, why is there such a lapse of time between 'graduation' and the Duggar kids leaving the nest to pursue their interests and goals? Whey do they remain so tethered to their parents even heading toward their 20's?

The question is rhetorical, as the answer is obvious.

Kit said...

“The Lord helps those who help themselves” is not found anywhere in the bible, nor is it a quote from Algernon Sydney. It's actually from one of Aesop’s fables from the 6th century BC. The fable, titled "Hercules and the Waggoner", tells the tale of a man whose wagon became stuck in the mud. The man got down on his knees and prayed to Hercules for help. Hercules promptly told the man to get up and put his shoulder to the wheel because "the gods help those who help themselves.” So, the phrase actually originates in pagan Greek mythology.

Not trying to belabor the point, because I agree that it doesn't really matter, since I haven't read that anyone's claiming the Duggars actually use this phrase. But I have always found it highly amusing that a phrase uttered so frequently and so reverently by Christian evangelicals is nothing more than a pagan teaching moment. As Flounder would say, "This is GREAT!"

ennvee said...

For anyone who thought the Duggars gave the Bateses the big hockey bus...they didn't. As I stated here before, the Bateses were seen on their last visit to the Duggars driving the red day school van.

Josh currently has the van listed in his inventory at Champion Mororcars. For a cool $85,000, it can be yours! :D

http://www.championnwa.com/inventory.html

If this page doesn't take you directly to the page listing the bus, it's on page 5 of the inventory list.

Hope this settles this issue once and for all. The Duggars may be charitable, but not THAT charitable. Jim Bob put a lot of cash into that bus and any businessman wants to get the best return possible (with some sort of cut for Josh, I suppose).

Cyn said...

The Bates were in the RED short School bus when they were talking about JimBob giving them the bus... I would have and did assume it was the RED one they were driving home in...

I loved when Mr Bates said "JimBob just wouldn't take no for an answer, and we love it (talking about the bus) it makes going anywhere as a family much easier."

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Is the red day school van and the van that is presently for sale one and the same?

ennvee said...

The Duggars have owned two red buses. I believe they gave the Bateses the newer one that seated more people and are selling the older one themselves.

The Bateses were seen ARRIVING at the Duggar place in the shiny red bus, so they already had it and that was the bus to which Gil was referring (in retrospect...they had been in TN a couple months earlier, IIRC). Their editing made it appear that they gave away the hockey bus, but this wouldn't be the first time their editing has intentionally misdirected their viewers. This is especially disingenuous when dealing with a fanbase who looks up to these people as mentors. The Duggars didn't lie, they gave the Bateses A bus, just not the bus that was implied on the show.

Thankfully, I've seen enough reality shows (my other guilty pleasure are some of the "Real" Housewife franchises) to know how the gig works. If I don't have the time to look into something (a poster elsewhere found the bus in Champion's inventory), someone else will. This happens with every show, not just the Duggars.

Allison said...

No, they are not the same bus!

The Prevost Entertainer Bus is their enormous RV that they use for road trips. I believe it's the one that Jim Bob famously "repo'd" awhile back.

The red bus that they gave the Bates is an entirely different (and way smaller!) bus. This is no "van" that Josh has listed on his website. It's the full-sized RV!

roddma said...

"Again, I haven't seen how they don't "meld" into the real world. What world are they living in? The successes they have achieved and are achieving do not look like your success. That is probably fine with them!"
The Duggar kids don't meld in the real world because they have been trained to think a certain way. in their eyes, the world is full of scary things like 'green hair'. In the real world, you deal with views different than yours. What success? Josh may have car lots but obviously one or both were Jim Bobs. It was made to look like Josh owned them. Josh was leasing them. Success is making it on your own without help from parents.

roddma said...

"IF my kids want college they can pay for it... I won't sign papers, I won't agree to loans, I'm not giving them my finicial information to help them get loans either.... They've known this since they were little, and they have figured out ways to get what they want without having to do a 4 year out of state college. "
Just because a parent never to college is not reason to keep them from it. This is different world than when most of were young. You dont have to get loans.You can get pell grants and scholarships. Education is one debt I will be glad to go into I ever have any kids. The Duggars cant seem to distinguish good and bad debt. I wonder if the College plus thing is just to appease the public. As soon as Erin Bates turned down the chance, it met with public backlash and now she is taking classes.

Cyn said...

Erin Bates made the comment about the green hair, and to this day the Duggars are still getting blamed for it.

******************************
The Duggars have owned at least 3 short school buses, 2 of which were red, one of which was white. They gave ONE of the red school buses to the Bates. I did not, nor have I ever thought, the Duggars gave the Bates the big silver touring bus.

I'm still lost as to why anyone ever thought it WAS the big silver touring bus, since Gil Bates was sitting in the little RED SCHOOL bus when they were talking about JimBob giving it to them, and you could see the bus seats behind him.

Religilicious said...

"This is different world than when most of were young. You dont have to get loans.You can get pell grants and scholarships. Education is one debt I will be glad to go into I ever have any kids. The Duggars cant seem to distinguish good and bad debt. I wonder if the College plus thing is just to appease the public. As soon as Erin Bates turned down the chance, it met with public backlash and now she is taking classes.

***********************************

Agree with this whole post, but will keep my comment short by addressing the 'Duggars can't tell good from bad debt'.

IMO, the Duggars seem completely out of their league when trying to deal with ANY complexities in life. Childlike, they are only able to handle a simplistic good vs evil, black vs white differentiation. Therefore, when classifying things like debt, loans go into the 'evil'/black' column. Dealing with grey areas proves beyond Duggar abilities. Sad.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Success is making it on your own without help from parents.

----------------------------

Wow, if this was a measure of success than those who had parents who paid or help pay for their college are not successful?

I think most people do get help from parents some time in their life, nothing wrong with that.

Josh runs and operates his business daily reqiring him and his wife to make decisions and put in their work. They pay their bills and most likely is not racking up debt. That is successful.

Religilicious said...

I feel genuinely sorry for the Duggar kids for several reasons but will only address one herein.

The Duggar parents are doing a stellar job of preparing their kids for life, HOWEVER, the life they are being prepared for does not exist in this day and age.

Ethics aside, the world continues to evolve (yes, EVOLVE), and, IMO, it is a parental duty to prepare one's children for the world and age in which they will live. Raising children to be ready to take on life as it was in the 1940's or even 1980's, is poor parenting IMO.

With all the constantly-emerging new technologies and global economics realities (to name only two aspects constantly at play and in flux), Mrs. Duggars' brand of home schooling followed by several more years under constant parental control serves only to poorly prepare these kids to handle real life in the real world. Add to this the expectation that all will marry and birth as many 'blessings' as humanly possible, and you have a losing proposition in the making.

Mr. & Mrs. Duggar deserve no parenting awards, IMO.

Cyn said...

With all the constantly-emerging new technologies and global economics realities (to name only two aspects constantly at play and in flux), Mrs. Duggars' brand of home schooling followed by several more years under constant parental control serves only to poorly prepare these kids to handle real life in the real world.
***********************************

Just as an observation the same things have been said about the Amish, the Mennonites, and some sects of Mormonism...

Each sect mentioned lives their lives in worlds they create for themselves, and most do it with out walking the path of the "normal" American. The Amish go to the point, of completely separating themselves, the rest live out daily lives within our own society.

I will grant you the Duggars are not going to produce brain surgeons, nor are they producing rocket scientists, that's not what they set out to do.

The Duggar parents set out to produce active, caring, helpful members of their community, imbibing them with a "servants heart" (bible principle) in every part of their lives, in this they have succeeded.

ennvee said...

I'm still lost as to why anyone ever thought it WAS the big silver touring bus, since Gil Bates was sitting in the little RED SCHOOL bus when they were talking about JimBob giving it to them, and you could see the bus seats behind him

===================================

People were apparently confused because unlike you, me and some people in the wall, it appears that most people did not realize the Duggars owned two red school buses and did not make the connection, thus assuming (and I read it many places, including here) that the Duggars were so generous for giving the Bateses the BIG bus after Jim Bob bought the new touring bus.

That is what I am talking about when I refer to disingenuous editing. It's sad that I know more about the Duggars' affairs than the majority of their purported fans. Why that is the case does not belong on this forum.

Alice said...

The complexities the Duggars have thus far avoided are sons with alcohol problems, girls who post pictures of their bodies on the internet, siblings who hate each other, and spouses who break their vows.

In a few years, if they show up on Jerry Springer or Dr. Phil, I guess the truth will be out. But I'm not holding my breath.

hart&sole said...

Anyone remember how much Jim Bob paid for that hockey team bus? As I remember it, he got quite a bargain.

The Duggar situation has improved greatly over the years. No more bloomers, no more perms, up-to-date, albeit modest, clothng and hair, computer and cell phone skills.

I will be curious to see how the rest of the Duggar kids do when they leave the nest, assuming they will eventually. Josh hasn't done badly considering he is a married man of just 23 expecting his second child. As for Jim Bob helping him...which of us wouldn't help our kids? Truthfully the bank of mom and dad might have shorter hours, as time goes by, but does it ever really truly close? Mine has been known to open for emergencies.

Alice said...

Not trying to belabor the point, because I agree that it doesn't really matter, since I haven't read that anyone's claiming the Duggars actually use this phrase. But I have always found it highly amusing that a phrase uttered so frequently and so reverently by Christian evangelicals is nothing more than a pagan teaching moment. As Flounder would say, "This is GREAT!"

******************************

The phrase, "God helps those who help themselves" was used in this thread by a detractor. :)

roddma said...

"Success is making it on your own without help from parents."
Let me rephrase.My fingers ran before my brain did. I in no way mean to imply you should never get help from parents. everyone needs a bump every now and that include college tuition to help be a success on their own. The Duggars stress leave and cleave but I don't see that applied if the car lot was Jim Bob's.
I read an article saying once kids leave and marry they are on their own financial.
"They pay their bills and most likely is not racking up debt. That is successful."
Some were under the impression Josh owned the car lot but turned out he was renting which means someone else owns it even if it's not Jim Bob's. Rent is debt and big waste of money IMO. There wouldn't be as much criticism of the Duggars if they quit trying to hide facts and skirt the issues. If Josh never owned the lot why dont they just say it? Its the way things are presented on the show sometimes that lead me to make the comment.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Renting is not always a waste. My first house was rented with the option to buy. Maybe Josh is just doing that, renting till he has enough to buy it outright without a mortgage. There are more than one way to be debt free. I think most people who never have a mortgage may have to rent and save up money while renting. Not everyone is able like the Maxwells to have a home free and clear of a mortgage before they marry. We really do not know what type of arrangements Josh has with his father.

Religilicious said...

re: the alleged success of the Duggar parents:

Most of us succeed in raising children who are ethical, responsible, additions to the planet while also being educated and independent. And most achieve this goal without keeping our children sequestered and uneducated. Instead, we teach our children how to navigate the world rather than judge and dread it. So, no bonus points for Mr. & Mrs Duggar - their children pay a large dues with their lack of education, skills, critical thinking abilities, and, of course, independence.

re: The Duggars raising children to 'have a servant's heart'. Servants are typically not free to work their own personal agenda because, instead, they are to only serve the needs of others. The Duggars campaigning against alcohol, etc. is hardly the agenda of a humble 'servant'.

Kit said...

The complexities the Duggars have thus far avoided are sons with alcohol problems, girls who post pictures of their bodies on the internet, siblings who hate each other, and spouses who break their vows.

Amazingly, the MAJORITY of families in the United States achieve the SAME results without the "guidance" of Gothardism.

Alice said...

Servants indeed do not seek to pursue their own agenda. They are after God's plan. this may be your problem with their method...

Religilicious said...

Applauding Kit 4/20, 10:08 . Well said and so true.

Here's the main thing I dislike and disrepect about the Duggars: they seem to assume the way to measure morality is by its place on the extremely conservative beliefs. The more conservative, by definition, the higher the morality. This attitude of their plays out in so many ways on their silly reality show, and I find it extremely offensive and laughably incorrect.

Religilicious said...

"Servants indeed do not seek to pursue their own agenda. They are after God's plan. this may be your problem with their method..."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ah, but it is the Duggar's view of 'God's plan' - not everyone will agree that the Duggars and other conservative Christians like them have the clear and correct understanding of 'God's plan', so we are right back to the Duggars serving their own agenda, assuming theirs is the same as God's. Pretty arrogant IMO.

Sharla said...

I've had to reject a few more judgmental/intolerant comments today. Please remember that in commenting about another reader judging the Duggars you may very easily fall into judging that other reader. People are not wrong for simply seeing the world, religion, or a TV show differently. Thank you!

Sharla said...

I've had to reject a few more judgmental/intolerant comments today. Please remember that in commenting about another reader judging the Duggars you may very easily fall into judging that other reader. People are not wrong for simply seeing the world, religion, or a TV show differently. Thank you!

Alice said...

Alice: The complexities the Duggars have thus far avoided are sons with alcohol problems, girls who post pictures of their bodies on the internet, siblings who hate each other, and spouses who break their vows.


Kit: Amazingly, the MAJORITY of families in the United States achieve the SAME results without the "guidance" of Gothardism.

*******************

I do believe the divorce rate is 50%, across the board. My suspicion is that the Duggars, with or without the "guidance" of Gothard, will have a much better divorce rate, because of the devotion displayed by their parents. I could be wrong, but we shall see.

About half of Jr. high and high school students drink. Once again, I believe the Duggars don't have issues with their kids and underage drinking, likely won't have alcoholics in their family, either.

Just google search "teen girls in videos" (NOT while a child is looking over your shoulder!) and you'll be amazed and saddened at the sheer numbers. My guess is the Duggar girls will have no desire to seek out this kind of attention, when they are well-loved at home and secure in their position. And some man is going to be lucky to get one of them!

msrylee said...

What does the divorce rate have to do with the devotion of the parents? Does it mean that because the senior Duggars are devoted to each other, that their children are exempt from divorce? I have suspicions that JimBob and Michelle would never condone divorce in their 'family', even if there would be 'Biblical" grounds for it.

ennvee said...

Alice, I don't know where you get your statistics, but at best those represent kids who have maybe had one beer at a party before they were 18. The percentage of kids who are problematic is very low (I had to take an exam on this as an over-21 student returning to college).

Religious types are very good at using incorrect information as scare tactics. Kids are curious and may try something once, even "good" church-going kids, like me. But their paranoia is allowing a few bad kids to spoil the vast majority who are curious, might try something once, find out they don't feel so hot the next day and eschew drinking until they're legal. It's just part of growing up. Some will become alcoholics or drug addicts because it's a genetic disease and would have happened no matter who their parents were, or what they tried to do to keep their kids away from parties, etc.

I've read reliable data that over half the kids who wear "purity" rings aren't as pure as their parents would like to think. That doesn't mean the girls are all sluts or the boys horndogs.

The Duggars choose to totally isolate and impose such strict rules, when they really aren't that necessary. To be honest, the fact they have to travel in pairs shows just how much DISTRUST they have in the way they have raised their kids (and the reason so many of their ilk escape the lifestyle).

As for divorce, I am just one example, but of five kids raised in a pretty conservative, fundie home complete with SAHM, two are married to their first husband (I am in this category), one has divorced twice, another once (after nearly 30 years married), and the last is gay and can never marry. It doesn't matter what our parents did; we are all different and odds are that not every Duggar kid is going to follow the Gothard blueprint. Some may even get divorced! It's highly unlikely they're going to go 19/19.

Long story short, no one is perfect and the Duggars are no better than any other parents who raise demonstrably successful children without all the rules and restrictions. Who we are is only about half determined by environmental factors, the other half is our DNA, that if one believes in a higher power, God gave us all...individually.

Alice said...

And the Duggars know as well as anybody they're not perfect, they seem to feel like they have to remind people of that from time to time.

As I said, we'll see in a few years how well their parenting and family life served their children! All we need is patience!

:)

Cyn said...

CDC says: (as of 2009 stats) 42% of High School students had had a drink in the last 30 days. 24% had binge drank. 10% drove after drinking, and 28% got in a car with some one that had been drinking.

Her numbers weren't that far off.

In 2009 it was also reported that 72% of High School Seniors had had at least one drink already. And a different reporting site (listed on the CDC) states that in the last month 44% of High School Students had had a drink.

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm
*******************************
The BATES travel in pairs and the BATES discussed the traveling in pairs when they were talking about college episode.

I've seen the Duggar girls travel in packs, but then again I've seen lots of teen girls traveling in packs as well, so I'm not willing to state the Duggars have demanded that their children travel in no less than pairs.

Religilicious said...

"I do believe the divorce rate is 50%, across the board. My suspicion is that the Duggars, with or without the "guidance" of Gothard, will have a much better divorce rate, because of the devotion displayed by their parents."
**********************************

Is this to imply it is the devotion of the Duggar parents that will somehow insulate their children from the possibility of divorce in adulthood? If so, this is an interesting supposition, that parental devotion to one another somehow 'guards against' their children becoming divorced. Got data?

Is divorce or lack thereof a meaningful measure of an individual's morality?

**********************************

"My guess is the Duggar girls will have no desire to seek out this kind of attention, when they are well-loved at home and secure in their position."

********************************

It's debatable which is sadder: girls who distastefully flaunt their youthful sexuality or those, like the Duggar women, who are trained to be subservient to their Patriarch throughout their entire existence, going from Daddy Patriarch to Hubby Patriarch.

***********************************
"And some man is going to be lucky to get one of them!"

*********************************

Yes, sadly, a man who enjoys the ego ride of playing Patriarch to an unthinking and obedient subservient spouse will likely enjoy the Duggar women... IF he can stomach his in-laws' expectation that he will dutifully follow silently along in the Duggar parade, led by Grampa Patriarch Jim Bob Duggar.

Sharla said...

I've tried to let the discussion flow but as usual it's spiraling off the Duggars and what we see on the show or in one of the publications or appearances. Quoting divorce statistics isn't really relevant unless or until one of the Duggar couples on the show files for divorce. Thanks.

ennvee said...

Cyn, the OP included middle school kids, which would bring the CDC stats down. A lot.

My point was fairly made; kids experiment but the vast majority are not the evil sinners that will never be successful in life (the poster's implication). If going to a party and having a beer or three is an indication of future success, than George W. Bush, a recovering alcoholic, should be living on Skid Row.

There are a lot of young adults who have grown up as the Duggars, often in even more extreme conditions who wind up unmarried, pregnant teenagers who are disowned by their paragon-of-virtue parents.

That's the result of not having a "buddy" around and a kid who isn't totally buying in to the program.

I have never seen any of the kids in public alone; the closest was Jinger with the twin who got the chess set. Even JohnDavid, a favored male in their society, has to live/work with Joseph.

Both families have all but stated (Duggar Dating Rules comes closest) that EVERYONE is chaperoned until there's a ring on the 3rd finger, left hand.

Religilicious said...

"I do believe the divorce rate is 50%, across the board. My suspicion is that the Duggars, with or without the "guidance" of Gothard, will have a much better divorce rate, because of the devotion displayed by their parents."

**********************************

IMO neither devotion to each other (JimBob and Michelle) nor 'devotion' to their religion (Gothard) offers anything even remotely approaching any kind of a guarantee that offspring will have a happy marriage.

It's important to realize that divorce statistics do not tell the entire tale.

Some who grow up in a Duggar-like environment feel there is too much stigma attached to divorce to risk being ostracized if they are open about being unhappily married. So they put on the smiling 'servant's heart' smile and do not venture forward in their own personal growth and freedom. Instead, they stay married at least in a legal/religious sense.

Couple this with the way the Duggar women are poorly educated and trained to be subservient, and it's easy to imagine why some women in this situation do not feel they have the ability to survive on their own without a Patriarch behind them.

IMO the Duggar kids have no better chance than anyone else of finding forever happiness in marriage.

Whether the Duggar V2 generation eventually adds to the divorce stats is a different issue than whether or not they are more or less guaranteed a healthy, happy, growthful marital relationship.

Religilicious said...

re: Duggar level of education

Anyone interested in some food for thought, you may want to check out msnbc.com, under the "Business" heading, an article entitled, "Youth Without Degrees At End of Job Line".

One more reason I feel sorry for the 2nd generation of Duggars.

roddma said...

"The complexities the Duggars have thus far avoided are sons with alcohol problems, girls who post pictures of their bodies on the internet, siblings who hate each other, and spouses who break their vows.

Amazingly, the MAJORITY of families in the United States achieve the SAME results without the "guidance" of Gothardism."

It is easy to avoid the bad stuff in the world if someone is guarding your every move. None of the Duggars kids have ever been tested in the real world. Someone is always with them because of 'accountability'. Even if a woman is unhappy in this lifestyle, she cant divorce for any reason. In sme ways the Duggar's modesty standards can be compared to girls posting pics of themselves online. though the extreme opposite, it draws attention.

We have no idea how the Duggar kids would be without Gothard. It is useless comparing them with the rest of the world.

roddma said...

"Servants indeed do not seek to pursue their own agenda. They are after God's plan. this may be your problem with their method..."
My problem is it seems the Duggars can't balance being a 'servant' and taking time for yourself. There is nothing wrong with pursuing your own interest.

roddma said...

"I will grant you the Duggars are not going to produce brain surgeons, nor are they producing rocket scientists, that's not what they set out to do."
The Duggar parents set out to produce active, caring, helpful members of their community, imbibing them with a "servants heart" (bible principle) in every part of their lives, in this they have succeeded." Teachers and doctors are helpful members of their society. Doctors are what saved Josie. What if their parents had forbidden them to become doctors and followed the Duggar's model? It is great being an active member of society but one should do this from the goodness of their heart and not because of PR or any religious motivation.

ennvee said...

Happy birthday Jason! Hope you actually got to do what YOU wanted to do this year, even if it means waiting until tomorrow night for free broomball.

Actually, I hope he dreamed big and made moths fly out of Jim Bob's wallet, just because I can picture the look on Dad's face when a 10 year old asks for a birthday consisting of something more than a cupcake and pizza when TLC isn't taping.

hart&sole said...

The Duggar girls' 'bathing suits' certainly draw more attention to their bodies than a run of the mill one-piece bathing suit would. Who could blame anyone for staring? One would think a good part of modest dressing would be in not drawing undue attention to one's self.

ennvee said...

http://www.4029tv.com/video/27631761/detail.html

GMA apparently has a series on getting into the "real life" of reality TV families/shows.

Interesting it's not through NBC, unless TLC's affiliations have changed, this is kind of a turncoat move on JimBob's part. Maybe he, like the majority of us, don't see the series surviving if there is no #20. As of a week ago, there wasn't, and Michelle looked smaller than I've ever seen her pre-kids. As the premise of the show, that's not good.

Hey, it's a new topic that has serious implications for their future on TV and beyond.

ennvee said...

Let me add to the post with the TV link that it really bothered me to see Josie floundering on the mini trampoline. The poor thing is barely over a year of gestational age and her motor skills are that of a premie, far behind even that. I mostly worried for the jostling of her head and potential of head injuries.

So cavalier with her, yet again. For any good they do, the damage they do to this poor baby cancels that out.

Religilicious said...

The Duggar girls' 'bathing suits' certainly draw more attention to their bodies than a run of the mill one-piece bathing suit would. Who could blame anyone for staring? One would think a good part of modest dressing would be in not drawing undue attention to one's self.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Agreed. IMO the whole Duggar parental persona is one of 'look at me; look at how hard I try to be holy; look how different I am from others in the (eww!) real (sinner) world.'

It seems contrary to all the Duggar humble servant hype that they chose to put their family on a tv 'reality' show. IMO true humility would prevent this.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

How would not wearing their style of bathing suit make them more humble? I do not think they wear it to show off how holy they are. They wear it out of modesty. If they did not show the swim suits others would be asking what they wear so they are open about their choices, nothing more.

Religilicious said...

There's a difference between modesty and humility.

The Duggars seem to get (and, IMO, go ridiculously overboard)the concept of basic modesty.

Humility, as in their talk of having 'a servant's heart', is a whole different concept, which, it appears the Duggars do not comprehend IMO.

If interested, google "modesty vs. humility" - there's an interesting discussion of the difference under a website called 'complete wellbeing'.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

While humility and modesty are two different things, they are not exclusive of one another. One can be both Humble and modest. Being modest does not mean one feels that they are holy or holier than others, it is just a personal conviction why may affect their choices in many things such as a style of clothing.

I do not see the Duggars as shouting out "looking at me, see how holy I am for wearing this and that". I just see them making their choices based on what they feel will please the Lord and how they interpret Scriptures when it comes to modesty. This does not mean they feel holier as I am sure that if they believe the scriptures they will find all of our efforts as humans can never obtain holiness. I have never seen them proclaim themselves to be holy. In fact I remember some of the songs they sing talks about them being sinners and needing redemption. All of this holiness seems to be projected on them, not coming from them. Big difference.

hart&sole said...

It's not necessary to shout when one is wearing clothing which is far different from the norm!!

ennvee said...

For anyone who is interested, Barnes & Noble has announced some book signing dates in early June.

http://store-locator.barnesandnoble.com/author-events/Michelle-Duggar/2072860

Religilicious said...

On the Gosselin thread beneath the proposed TLC new line up, where are the Duggars?

Are they on the same timeline for the chopping block as Kate Gosselin?

(One can hope.....)

msrylee said...

IMO, Jordyn has been neglected. I know how difficult it is to keep a two-year-old clean, as I have a grandbaby the same age. However, Jordyn seems to have been lost in the shuffle of the Duggar family. She has been viewed wandering aimlessly, seemingly ignored by everyone. This may not be a reality for this child, but it has been portrayed by TLC like this. One episode showed Michelle returning home, going to JimBob for a kiss, and then passing right by Jordyn who was trying so hard to get her mother's attention. I know that Michelle had left Josie at home, but she was quite content being with her dad. Jordyn was left standing there. These are some of the reasons that it is my opinion that Jordyn is neglected.

Religilicious said...

Let's hope:

The Generation One Duggar Baby Mill has finally permanently closed shop.

The Generation Two Duggar Baby Mill, Jimbob Jr/Josh, The Used Car Salesman, does not carry on the family's pursuit of TLC $ with his own Baby/Year storyline.

As difficult as I find it to stomach JimBob, it's even more nauseating to see/hear Josh Duggar, IMO. Rebel Without A Cause? How about Arrogance Without Cause.

Reality TV Junkie said...

I still don't get how someone could bash the Duggar girls for wearing the bathing suits they do. It's a good thing they have respect for their body.

Religilicious said...

"I still don't get how someone could bash the Duggar girls for wearing the bathing suits they do. It's a good thing they have respect for their body."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

By this logic, do female Olympic swimmers and divers respect their bodies less than the Duggar women?

hart&sole said...

If the Duggars don't mind people pointing and staring they are certainly free to wear any sort of bathing suit they choose. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like to draw attention to myself, especially negative attention.