Free Discussion March 2011

Please use this for Duggar sightings, speculation, or general discussion. Note that this is Duggar discussion not other families, TV shows, or personal stories. Thank you!

198 comments:

Anonymous said...

Michelle was a really good mom. The older kids (except for Josh), who she raised herself, are really well behaved, while the middle ones, who she was moderately parenting though they had buddies, are also polite and well behaved. The younger ones (Jackson on down) on the other hand, are wild. I think she has just stopped trying; somehow she handled Josh (6), Jana and John (5), Jill (3) Jessa (2), Jinger (1) and newborn Joseph without much help. Now, she relies on the girls so much it must be hard for her to do it on her own.

Anonymous said...

To anonymous at 11:12 p.m. - I agree. You can see that when she and JimBob were doing the raising of the children, and still had the energy and interest in being active parents in their children's daily lives -- it made a difference.

Both of them got caught up in having as many children as physically possible, without accepting that one must be more than physically able to get pregnant and give birth, to be a truly good, involved parent.

I will not fault the older girls for the job they have done in raising their younger siblings. Given the circumstances, they have done the best they can.

However, I agree that the youngest children have atrocious manners, and behave like wild things more than half the time. Running around inside the house, rough housing, climbing up on tables and counters, and so forth.

msrylee said...

I agree that Josie should have a birthday celebration, but hopefully Jordyn had one, too. She is the blessing I feel so sad about, as she has been lost in the shuffle of their lives.

I will also agree that Michelle was a good mom, especially with the oldest ones. Not so much with the middlers, and not very much with the youngest, with the exception of Josie. The sister-mommies are probably trying their best, but they are NOT the parents.

Anon 9:43 said it well about one must be more than physically able to get pregnant and give birth, to be a truly good, involved parent. I believe it's not too late to step up to the plate for both parents, but they need to first acknowledge the mistakes and failures, and then have the drive to want to change. As stated previously, fame and money seem to have changed Michelle and JimBob's priorities, and IMO, the blessings have paid the biggest price.

Anonymous said...

Michelle seems incapable of caring for her own children without a boatload of help. The future looks bleak for those older daughters, since we know Michelle can't raise the little ones without them, or without an army of other helpers in their place.

Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

Anonymous said...

I think the episode where the older children are away on a mission while Michelle is at home, with four adult helpers and the youngest 7 children, shows us exactly why the older girls haven't begun courting yet.

They cannot leave the nest because they run the nest.

When they are gone, four adult reinforcements had to be brought in to fill their shoes.

It is absolutely clear that Michelle is either incapable or unwilling to step back into her responsibilities as mother to her children and run her own household. Therefore, the older girls cannot go away to school, cannot court, marry and move away, nor can they be gone away from home and their unpaid jobs for very long for any reason.

And yet Mr. and Mrs. Duggar are held up as examples of fine Christians and good parents. Is the conservative uber religious segment of society so lacking in good role models, that this is the best that can be found? Is it even worse in families that we don't see on television? One has to wonder.

Anonymous said...

I have a tendency to be critical of Michelle, but I think life would be a lot easier for the family if they stopped homeschooling. I understand they want a curriculum designed with Christian values, but there has to be a few good private Christian schools they can send those younger kids to, they can certainly afford it.

I think doing so would liberate the older girls and allow them to pursue adult interests, it would free the younger children from the monotony of being stuck in the same house day after day and get them on a badly needed routine, and it would give Michelle the chance to spend quality time with the toddlers, especially poor Jordan and Jennifer.

I'm not criticizing home schooling, I just dont think you can effectively do it with so many kids.

Allison said...

I just checked out the teaser info for the Mar. 14 info. It's says that Michelle stays home with the younger children and tries to catch up on housework.

Hi TLC!!!! We can see you!!!!

Anonymous said...

I have thought that exact thing for a long time. The children are all receiving an inferior education, lack any kind of structure, and those who have "graduated" are not prepared for any kind of career in the real world. Those little boys need discipline and structure in their lives, Johanna would flourish under a real educator, and the teens would benefit from learning in a real school-not only academically but for social and career-building purposes. It is very sad that these families think that kind of home education is superior (meaning doing nothing but plopping the kids in front of a computer for simple exercises). I'm not saying home schooling can't work for some people. But two parents like the Duggars who never went to school beyond high school are not capable of teaching everything a child needs to know. And with that many in such a wide age span, there is no way it would work. I have a college degree and I know I would not be able to keep up with 19 (or, what 15 who are of school age?)kids of different ages, nor would I be able to teach the difficult maths, sciences, and lab classes that they need. That is why there are specialized teachers in high school- to teach their area of expertise to growing minds.
They are unfortunately just raising another generation of undereducated people. Very unfair to their children and the kids have no idea how much more there is out there in the big world.

Allison said...

I also wanted to mention that they have 3 new videos up. They are pretty interesting, nothing earth-shattering. But the 3rd video "Missing Tape" prominently features Jennifer and she speaks several times. They still do the voice over because she talks rather quickly, but I think she sounds just fine. Maybe her diction was a little on the weak side, but she was certainly trying to be vocal. I know some people have been concerned about that so I thought I would highlight it in case anyone wanted to see it.

The other 2 videos were a French crew visiting El Salvador to document the Duggars (where Jim Bob says that they were there to bring much need supplies *as well as* Christmas gifts - take that as you will) and the second video was of Jill and Josie at home, but nothing earth-shattering there. Other than to once again show that Jill is the head sister-mom of the household.

Anonymous said...

IMO, 3/2, 11:28 am is right.

I've always wondered how/why people like the Duggars assume they are as qualified to teach as college educated teachers whose major was Education. Seems prideful and mistaken.

Allison said...

I've always wondered how/why people like the Duggars assume they are as qualified to teach as college educated teachers whose major was Education. Seems prideful and mistaken.

---

There are a lot of reasons why people homeschool, and I don't really fault the Duggars for pursuing that. I mean, the homeschool debate is very controversial in and of itself. People do it for a variety of different reasons. Sometimes public schools are just crap and private schools are too expensive for people, sometimes one-one-one attention is better. I have several friends who were homeschooled and went on to graduate college and get jobs, so it's not necessarily a mistake or that the parents are smart (especially if they pursue tutors, or community education, that sort of thing). Some "professional" teachers aren't any more than glorified parents anyway...

However, I agree that with 19 kids of varying ages, that makes it really challenging to keep up with all the needs. I'm not sure Michelle is really doing her kids any favors. But considering we never even SEE them doing schoolwork, it's kind of hard to tell!! (hint hint, TLC)

Anonymous said...

It is possible that the Duggars want to limit their childrens' education to what they are able to provide. Remember "knowledge is power." It might be very uncomfortable for the parents if the children started to question what they are being taught.

Anonymous said...

"It is possible that the Duggars want to limit their childrens' education to what they are able to provide. Remember "knowledge is power." It might be very uncomfortable for the parents if the children started to question what they are being taught."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

My sentiments exactly, especially "knowledge is power," which explains why women in this group seem to be discouraged from any real education and life experience. How better to keep women in line under their Patriarch (first daddy then hubby) than to keep them like uneducated little girls?

Further, that pesky reality that a larger world view just may open the eyes of at least some of the Duggar children, spawning some serious questions about the small, simplistic world/life view they have been given, is also to be avoided if the Duggar parents are to maintain such total control over their family.

Then, too, you have the whole science vs. bible issues - why send kids onward for higher education when that education may call into question at least some of the biblical interpretation you want them to unquestioningly believe.

Keeping the kids uneducated is very effective in maintaining parental (and later, husband/patriarchal) control.

"How ya' going to keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?"

Willow #1 said...

I think all of you are pointing out some really good opinions of the homeschooling that is done the Duggar way. I too agree that the problem is not the homeschooling but the fact there are too many children now. Besides all the reasons already pointed out, it may be also that they started out with the homseschooling and really would hate to stop now (i.e., it might look like a negative in the column of "have as many blessings as you possibly can"). I know the older children help, but that is interfering with their own educational time. You have to adapt as you go. If you want to have the mega family, you may have to make adjustments along the way. Don't make the children suffer -- maintain their best interests and adjust for it in other ways. I agree there are excellent Christian schools but doubt there are too many that are of the specific persuasion that the Duggars are.

Anonymous said...

I think the saddest part of it is that they cannot explore any options and branch out to follow their own interests. I can't believe 19 children all want to play violin. There must be someone who wants to learn a band instrument. There must be someone who has hidden artistic talent, another who would love to get their hands on some chemistry equipment, a few who would excel in team sports, and on and on. Unless Michelle knows how to play every instrument ever made, is a professional artist, can coach a football team in the backyard, has the brain skills of a scientist, these kids are all going to have talents that go to waste. For a family that bases their life on the Bible, have they never heard of letting their children's light shine instead of hiding it under a bushel basket? (sorry, not familiar with the exact quote). These kids will never be able to shine at their own skill. They are only allowed to do what their parents allow. It is disheartening to think of what skills and talents are never going to be allowed to come out. It is wonderful and amazing to watch your children grow and pursue what they want to do and what makes them happy and fulfilled.

Kitten said...

"How ya' going to keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?"

Which is exactly why I think the middle and younger children are far less "robotic" than the oldest group, who had the full "benefit" of the Gothard techniques of child rearing. Also why they are most likely to be the ones who detach themselves from the rigidity of Gothard as they reach adulthood.

It should be noted that JimBob attended a private Christian high school - Shiloh Christian, I believe. Guess even that is too worldy for them these days.

Jen said...

I agree all 19 children probably don't want to learn to play the violin. That doesn't mean they don't learn to play the violin for educational development. Many public and private schools encourage or require a child to learn the violin or other string instrument, as it develops the brain and increases learning in other areas. This might be the reason the Duggars learn to play the violin also.

The Duggar children do get to play other instruments if they wish. Harp, guitar, and cello are just a few we have seen. I'm sure if they have other intrests they can persue them also. Photography comes to my mind.

Michell doesn't have to know how to do everything for the children to want and be able to learn or do something. They just have to find someone that can teach them. Just like they have a violin teacher, piano teacher, and science teacher that comes in and teaches them.

Anonymous said...

While their contact and interaction with the outside world is very controlled and limited because of their lifestyle and beliefs, ironically, while on the one hand the show has definitely increased their exposure to people and experiences outside the family circle, as most recently noted in the "exchange student photo" incident, it's also upped the level of "supervision," in the form of public scrutiny, of every Duggar's every move.

Will life in a fishbowl make it more likely that some of the kids may wish to choose a different lifestyle, while at the same time making it more difficult for them to take even exploratory baby steps toward serious consideration of it?

Privacy is at a premium in any family even a fraction of the size of the Duggars.

I wonder about the practical aspect of any of the kids, as they near young adulthood, being able to have the opportunity for introspection and exploration that's a necessary part of growing up in the sense of developing one's own beliefs, goals, etc.

What if Jessa wanted to go to a party sponsored by a non-Duggar faith-based institution - say the Episcopalians or something - where there would be plenty of adult supervision, but also plenty of dancing?

Now that may seem like a small thing, but what if she felt she needed to experiment with dancing in order to discover whether that's a doctrine she'd like to keep as a part of her own grown-up, independent belief system, or whether she leans more toward the view of those who believe that dancing is a form of saying "Thanks for the cool feet, God. Watch this!"

Assuming she somehow made it to the party, once the pics hit the internets, how would the reaction of her parents and others who share their beliefs impact the process of her own personal growth and decision-making?

Anonymous said...

I have commented on the younger children's unruliness at various times, but I do think that if any of the children have a hope of breaking free from the mind-numbing Gothard lifestyle, it's going to be the youngest in that brood. They have the least emotional attachment to their parents; they have enjoyed much greater freedom (in the form of somewhat benign neglect), they never had to wear the horrible matching Prairie clothing of their older siblings, and for all or much of their lives, they have been exposed to a lot of outside influences, no matter that they are homeschooled.

It's one thing to raise a child up in a very strict manner from the start -- but entirely another to try to rein in 7 or 10 other children who have gotten used to an entirely different sort of life.

I think the younger children are probably more emotionally bonded to their sister-moms than they are to Michelle. They already sort of look at her sideways when she pretends to do some mothering.

I'm sure it's very wrong of me - but I wish there would be footage of when those youngsters hit the teen years, and Michelle and JimBob are a decade or more older as well.

Cyn said...

The Duggar kids have always BEEN rambunctious and climbing all over things, it wasn't filmed for the early shows but the reporters commented on it at the time.

Quote: There is the ever-present backdrop of hymns, played on the piano by the children. Television is watched sparingly. There are rambunctious little boys chasing one another through the house, climbing onto furniture, balancing themselves on the arms of chairs.

Someone always seems to be snacking, usually on a large dill pickle, a family staple. And 4-year-old James never seems to tire of sidling up to a media visitor, tilting his head with a grin, and asking, "How many are you?"

"It's like going to a 10-ring circus," Mr. Duggar said. "It is just fun all the time." End quote

This article was published before they moved into the new house, and after the first documentaries.

We only saw glimpses of their life in the documentaries. The series didn't start till they were living in the newer house where they had more room for the cameras and equipment. And more room for the kids to do what they had already been doing in the other smaller houses.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/340821/parents_of_16_rely_on_faith_family_to_make_full/

Anonymous said...

I am a Duggars fan, but am heartbroken to see that NONE of the kids are living up to their potential. If college scares their parents to the point of needing to be "protected", why not send the girls to nursing school? Josh sells used cars and John David drives a tow truck. The girls and Mrs. Duggar (Jimbob's mom) are unpaid childcare workers. Are none of the Duggar kids to receive any education beyond homeschool? I remember in one of the earliest episodes Josh said he wanted to be a lawyer. Sad. Michelle is clearly in over her head. The four girls are trapped and the youngest kids are out of control. And all of this because they are following the teachings of a single, childless man who in many cases twists Scripture to make his point. I'm an alumnus of both Bill Gothard's Basic and Advanced seminars. Most of it is opinion that can't be backed up with Scripture.

Anonymous said...

I thought they wanted to protect them. I think the girls should have some classes,college etc so they can get a job.

If they want to be homemakers thats fine. However, they also need to learn a trade. If the husband is unable to provide for them. What if somthing happens to the husband? What would happen to the family?


You also never know what issues may come that would need a lot of people like medical isssues etc

Kitten said...

why not send the girls to nursing school?

Because unless it's a nursing school run by Gothard adherents, there might be students (or teachers!) with "purple hair," or women wearing tight pants or lowcut blouses, or someone playing rock music on an iPod, or maybe even a lesbian or gay classmate. Plus, students would actually have to study both female and MALE anatomy, and actually look at and touch men in various states of undress. Required science classes might actually discuss and require study of evolution theory. Psychology classes might raise uncomfortable questions about religious beliefs. They might have to learn about and discuss birth control as something other than a "cause" of miscarriages. Etc., etc., etc.

When you want to control what your children are "exposed to" to the extent the Duggars seem to want to do, you necessarily are going to severely limit their educational opportunities. There just aren't many conservative fundamentalist Christian nursing schools to choose from. In fact, there are probably more colleges that fall into this category.

mitzimoo said...

I believe the reason Michelle could say Jill was thinking about "nursing" about a year ago and is now studying to become a doula is because they were waiting for the semester to begin for her to enroll in the following program:

http://www.telos.edu/healthcare/FAQs.php

They were probably also waiting for confirmation that Jill would get a free ride.

They used to post tuition costs, but I see that they recently updated the website and they no longer mention tuition at ALL (unless I missed it on a form). Last time I saw the costs, I was staggered; I don't remember the exact figure, other than it was more than a year's tuition at a top-tier state university (in a state with a very high cost of living).

Bottom line, I imagine Jill is in the Home Health Care program; it doesn't require much time away from the compound for a couple of on-site classes. I'm sure Priscilla Keller (who, last I heard, works in Gothard's institution) can be dispatched to be her "escort," as she was when Jessa and Jinger went to Chicago for the Gothard music program.

family values said...

I do not think it a coincidence that the children from Jackson on down are less well behaved than the older children. Just think...Jackson is the first child born into a "celebrity" family. He was the "15" of "14 children and Pregnant" was shot.

I think it is evident, that Michele and Jim Bob paid less attention to the children, and more time away from them after they became famous. Fame is now the driving force and the source of income for the family. Nothing good ever comes of that. Just as they took a look at how television had taken them away from "family time" ...they had better take a hard look at how much time fame has cost their family!

And they need to look at how they are stunting the growth of their adult children. They are NOT doing what is best for their adult daughters. Those girls need their own lives without the responsiblity of caring for their parent's children and their parent's home.

Cyn said...

What I can't figure out is if the reporters in 2004-2006 wrote articles about how chaotic, and rambunctious the children were then (but not shown in the filming of the documentaries) why are we now assuming that the older children didn't run wild through the houses when they were smaller??? They wrote then about the kids climbing on the furniture, and running through the house, and all the other various things we see the children doing now. They compared it to a "circus" in some articles.

When the documentaries came out every one complained about how robotic the children appeared on screen, and how the children were too well behaved. Now that we see the children BEING children, they are 'wild hooligans' that Michelle has no control over.

When the house was too clean, the kids had no toys, when the toys were all over the Little Rock house, Michelle "let everything go to pot". When they show the kids eating fruits and veggies (something people kept complaining about the lack of) it was "see the kids have to fend for themselves, and get their own food".

Blogs and people ask to see Michelle and only Michelle working with the kids. We see Michelle putting kids to bed, and or feeding them and "see she has them too hyped up to go to bed", and "look at what she is feeding them."

The older kids start higher learning classes, (which we were all begging them to do, or swearing it would never happen) but when they do start classes of ANY kind, we give them grief over what classes, courses, or schools they chose.

I do have a question though... if their education is as LOW as people keep assuming it is, how on earth did any of the older ones pass the GED much less the harder classes for first responders (it's not just the Red Cross first aid class) and or the classes for firefighter positions?

And if they pass the clep things, and get a diploma (from a local college)... are we STILL going to assume it's sub par based solely on the fact that the "Duggars" were the ones that did it?

Are we seriously to the point where all we want is for them to answer our questions so that we can do nothing but criticize their answers, and their lifestyle choices? Yes I realize they are on TV, and yes I realize this is a blog called "without pity", but at the same time if the only point to watching the show OR reading the blog is to claim how superior WE are to them, are we then not judging them much more harshly than we claim they judge the world?

Just wondering...

Kitten said...

Wow, there really is a Gothard school for nursing...sort of. Through the Telos program, you can get an Associates degree for Home Health Care (2-yr program), or just become a Certified Nursing Aide (4-week course).

As for the costs, they're listed in their catalog. Credits are $95/hour (CNA requires 4 hours, Associate's degree requires 64). BUT, you get a $25/hour credit for every year your family has been a member of ATI, so I imagine Jill could pretty much go for free, lol...

This is my favorite part, though:
Question: Will a Telos degree be recognized by a mission board as a “Bible” major or provide entrance to the work force?
Answer: Recognition of achievement depends entirely upon the party to whom the degree is presented. Lack of accreditation does not diminish the value of the degree but may require you to creatively communicate the degree to a mission board, education institution, or potential employer.

Kinda speaks for itself...

Anonymous said...

The entire thing is written in double-speak:

"Will you be offering an LPN or RN program in the future?"
At this time, God has clearly revealed the need to focus our attention on home care giving and care management where the skills of an RN or LPN are not as crucial as in an acute care setting. The goal of our program is to support efforts to return the responsibility for health care to the home. We are, however, certainly open to God's leading in the future regarding additional programs."
Basically,this is saying that you are being trained to do absolutely nothing. Being hired by a home health care system would require a person to have a license or certification from an accredited program, which this is not. I'm reading this as "You can go visit someone in their home to cheer them up and fluff their pillows." Hmmm... I think most people could handle those duties without paying Gothard $10,000 first.

Anonymous said...

Lack of accreditation does not diminish the value of the degree but may require you to creatively communicate the degree to a mission board, education institution, or potential employer.
----------------------------

In other words, "I have this piece of paper that says my family spent a lot of money so I could read some material that discusses nursing in a general, non-frauding sort of way. I have no practical nursing experience, and certainly you shouldn't rely on me to provide essential nursing care to anyone without the very real possibility of a lawsuit after an unfortunate incident. However, I feel very well qualified to sit beside a modestly dressed woman or child and pray for her or her health."

As if a Gothard girl would ever go out into the workforce in the first place. This program is just another way for Gothard to earn money off his followers.

Anonymous said...

Lack of accreditation for a $10K "degree"? What fool would pay for such nonsense? Gothard is laughing all the way to the bank.

Anonymous said...

We see Michelle putting kids to bed, and or feeding them and "see she has them too hyped up to go to bed", and "look at what she is feeding them.
-----

Many interesting points, but I will just address a few. We don't see Michelle putting kids to bed. We see Michelle sitting on a bed and singing and then riling them up. We don't see Michelle feeding anyone. We see a shot of her cooking some eggs. Is it a stage shot? Who knows, it appears so.

The children's GEDs are passed using an open "computer" and not based on knowledge of a subject. We see children running aimlessly around. Not playing just moving, even the shots outside they are just running, the girls hobbled by skirts and silly shoes.

Eating fruits and vegetables on their own. We have seen grubby fingers diving into a bag of dried fruit.

"Living up to their potentials." We really don't know if they have any "potential". Anyone who seems very satisfied by what they are doing, is probably in the right place. If they had any intellectual curiosity or any burning talent, I'm thinking they would figure out how to explore that interest in a meaningful way. I think they are all happy as little clams and will remain in their little clam world forever. Their potential has been reached.

The home health worker thing is really a hoot. Learning how to sooth a brow and hold someone's hand is not worth $95 and hour in tuition fees.

And good gracious, that double speak from the Gothard man is seriously crazy.

Sharla said...

I think it's time to ask that before putting something through as fact that is not at all factual, I need for you to do basic research. The GED is not given at home on an "open computer." It is a state administered test given under state control only at selected sites.

Also comments directly disparaging religious beliefs are inappropriate. If you disagree, that is fine and welcome, but calling them wrong, stupid, etc, is not. Readers are entitled to their own opinions - on each side.

Thank you. Having at least minimum civility is a must.

Sharla said...

Forgot to add, but please remember your opinion is not established fact and phrase your comments as opinion.

So often it is not what you say but how you say it.

Thanks again.

Cyn said...

We don't see Michelle feeding anyone. We see a shot of her cooking some eggs. Is it a stage shot? Who knows, it appears so.

http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/19-kids-and-counting-season-5-webisodes/ (mom holds down the fort)

Actually I was talking about the webisodes that are on TLC, that I posted to this blog a few weeks ago... And it turned into this big to do about what was being fed, how far away Jordyn was from the rest of them (the high chair is attached to the table and they do NOT work well on the bar type the Duggar's have), how far away from the rest of them Michelle was (if she was sitting over by Jordyn she couldn't see the ones at the other end of the bar and viceversa (sp)), to the Styrofoam to go bottoms and lids the kids were eating out of etc etc.

Did prove my point though; we (the viewing audience) asked to see Michelle being the one with the kids and even in response we critiqued what she was doing, and how she did it.

Anonymous said...

I feel bad for Anna that she finds out the sex (!!) of her babies at the same time as everyone else in the family. (And after bakers and skywriting pilots do.) Or does she actually find out before what is filmed? Don't we see the real life or do we see re-enactments?

Lisa said...

In regards to the GED test this quote was taken off the FAQ page about the GED from the American Council of Education regarding what it means to "pass" the GED. "Those passing the GED Tests have demonstrated a level of knowledge equal to or greater than 40% of graduating high school seniors." To me this shows that 40% of high school seniors would not pass the GED exam. And while we do not know where the Duggar children fall on the percentile chart for people who have passed the exam they clearly have to have a good grasp of knowledge to pass the exam.

Lisa said...

For Mackynzie Josh and Anna did not know until they cut into the cake what the baby's sex was. As for this pregnancy, we don't know if she knew before the plane flew overhead or not, we will just have to wait and see. Personally, I think its kind of neat to involve everyone and have it be a unique way to reveal something special like that.

Anonymous said...

"Did prove my point though; we (the viewing audience) asked to see Michelle being the one with the kids and even in response we critiqued what she was doing, and how she did it."

You know, there's a wonderful solution for this. Pull the plug and give the family some privacy. Doesn't pay very well though. If they don't like all the critisism then they shouldn't have a reality show. Otherwise, it goes with the territory.

Cyn said...

"Did prove my point though; we (the viewing audience) asked to see Michelle being the one with the kids and even in response we critiqued what she was doing, and how she did it."

You know, there's a wonderful solution for this. Pull the plug and give the family some privacy. Doesn't pay very well though. If they don't like all the critisism then they shouldn't have a reality show. Otherwise, it goes with the territory.

***********************
The point was WE are more judgmental, and are not shy about doing it, than the Duggars have ever been in word or deed.

Anonymous said...

A few weeks ago on Jim Bob and Michelle had an interview on the radio.It was around the time the Duggars had that huge winter storm.I think Michelle memtioned that Anna and Josh were finding out the sex of their baby that day and that they wont know for a few more weeks.Im guessing that we wont be finding out the sex of the baby for a while.

Anonymous said...

>I feel bad for Anna that she finds out the sex (!!) of her babies at the same time as everyone else in the family. (And after bakers and skywriting pilots do.) Or does she actually find out before what is filmed? Don't we see the real life or do we see re-enactments?
----------------------------------

I thought she and Josh honestly seemed surprised,although it does appear others find out before they do,as of course,they are involved in makiing it all happen.Josh even knew Anna was pregnant before she did the first time.I suspect that was cooked up by TLC.

I do hoppe that they really *want to know the sex of the baby beforehand,and aren't just doing it for the show.

Anonymous said...

The home health worker thing is really a hoot. Learning how to sooth a brow and hold someone's hand is not worth $95 and hour in tuition fees


have you ever seen what you pay for a pair of gloves in the er? thats cheap!

Sharla said...

The blog has gone to registered users. Unfortunately we have some people who not only do not want to follow some basic measures of politeness and writing, but also feel obliged to send me nastiness. I know the readers don't see what is rejected so you don't know what is driving this. It's time to stop letting a few people waste our time.

Cyn said...

The blog has gone to registered users. Unfortunately we have some people who not only do not want to follow some basic measures of politeness and writing, but also feel obliged to send me nastiness. I know the readers don't see what is rejected so you don't know what is driving this. It's time to stop letting a few people waste our time.
********************************

umm Blond question...
Does registered mean registered to THIS blog, as in do we have to sign up for something.... or registered with blogger?

Sharla said...

Cyn, obviously you're registered. :) It says things like OpenID will work. Google accounts should also I believe.

Dar said...

Might be a silly question. Does this mean there will be no more "Anonymous" postings accepted?

Sharla said...

Yes, all commenters must be registered at an acceptable site with a name that will appear. If someone doesn't currently have a Google account, that might be the one to get as the next step is to go to Google accounts only. I'm sorry to the people who are nconvenienced because a few people have abused the privilege of remaining fully anonymous.

Krissy said...

One thing I find hilarious is how bloggers will raise certain points/concerns and then magically they are addressed in a future show. Perfect example is how critical people are of the Duggars' diet, and then in the last episode we are treated to a ten minute explanation of how messy the kids get when they eat fruit.

In regards to Josh and Anna finding out the sex of their baby, I'm sure they'll know beforehand, it will just be a surprise for the rest of the family. And Anna looks stunning with her new haircut, it's very stylish.

In regards to Jill pursuing a nursing education, she will never in a million years get a job without a degree from an accredited school, and she would still have to pass state boards to be licensed.

I guarantee the girls will be living at home well into their twenties because Michelle is unable or unwilling to raise her younger chidren. I mean for goodness sake, she had to have four helpers come in when the family was in Central America. And I for one am tired of her using Josie as an excuse. I understand she has special needs, but you constantly see the younger boys carrying her around, so she's obviously not that fragile anymore.

M-A said...

“Because unless it's a nursing school run by Gothard adherents”

Yeah, it’s only “ok” to contact the “outside world” when they need something but not to participate in it. The “outside world” has given much to the Duggars that they offer little back to, or allow their own children to benefit from. A few examples:

EACH OTHER: Jim Bob and Michelle met at her part-time JOB when she was in school, where his mother also worked (I believe). Working women? On the “outside”???? Meeting strangers???? Not for the Duggar kids!

A TRADE: They BOTH choose to get a real-estate license, which I believe is at the very foundation of how they’ve provided for their family. They hope their children each have big families, but how do they expect them to support them? And what if their daughters’ husbands are suddenly incapacitated or gone?

A JOB FOR THE WIFE: Michelle worked in their early years, which contributed to savings and a financial head start.

TIME: Unlike what their kids are taught, Jim Bob and Michelle didn’t have kids the minute they married – they had time with each other and both worked to save up.

CIVICS: Jim Bob and one son ran for office. Amazing. But we have not seen newspapers making up for TV and internet news. Other than a 101 homeschooling class, how can these kids know anything about the tiny part of the world that they ARE permitted to get involved in? You may not need a specific degree in politics, but you certainly need exposure.

MEDICAL / PROFESSIONAL HELP: Pretty obvious with Josie, but with everyone, too. This includes dental, vision, legal, contracting, electricians, etc. Many families this size are quite self-sustaining (gardens, farms, being extremely handy / ingenious around the house, etc.). The Duggars are average consumers of goods/services. Why is going to the “outside world ” for everything ok while “exposure” involved in pursuing goals within such fields a big no-no for their kids? Especially when it’s ironically what made having so many kids financially possible for them?

How much “faith” do you have in your teachings if you assume mere exposure to something else will corrupt it?

M-A said...

Cyn: I agree that forums are hard to please in that people want to see Michelle do more with the kids but then criticize what she does (although I think the boards were in an uproar about a comment that “taking care of sick kids was not Jim Bob’s jurisdiction”, so it’s not just about Michelle). Or want the kids to have an education but then complain about the classes. However, I think the problem is that producers obviously read the boards and often, the “clarifications” they show seem fabricated , forced, staged, and superficial. More like damage-control than true family-rearing dedication.

Sure, “education”… still an extremely limited choice that leads to little financial independence. Sure, she’s “taking care” of the younger kids… feeding them ad hoc meals for 2 weeks with 6 extra adults to “help” and apparently not bothering with homeschooling. Yes, bloggers can be hard to please, but many are also not easily fooled by “fake” things from a family who has branded their righteousness for A LOT of money.

As for bloggers being more judgmental than the Duggars in word or DEED… I believe shielding your children from (rather than properly educating and preparing them for) any opposition to their ways (and the very act of considering the entire outside world an opposition in the first place), is QUITE a judgment inDEED. I’ve said many times that I simply disagree with them and that I don’t think the kids are being neglected in welfare per se, though. I really don’t. But they’re on tv and I do believe they choose to deal with criticism of their family values as much as with their paycheck, especially when those values are the “star” of their show.

Celestie said...

"Those passing the GED Tests have demonstrated a level of knowledge equal to or greater than 40% of graduating high school seniors." To me this shows that 40% of high school seniors would not pass the GED exam.

---
Which to me means that anyone who scores 41% or more on the GED, test passes. On a scale of 1-100, a score of 41% to 80% is not all that good. Sort of like a F to C+ student. We really don't know what the Duggar childrens' scores are. They maybe doing better than 40% of high school seniors, but that is not to say they are doing really well either or have a wide body of knowledge. We just don't know. I "think" if they have a strong academic aptitude, they would want to pursue higher education in some way. If not, they might be content where they are.

ennvee said...

Kelly Bates suffers a miscarriage.

http://gilbatesfamily.com/blog/

And with the announcement this morning that progesterone is going from $10-$20/shot to $1500, this may have been her last shot.

Michelle also hasn't been pregnant in 15 months. Although the Duggars could certainly afford the treatments, she hasn't had any (known) miscarriages since 1990, so she wouldn't be a candidate for it. I suspect both of them *might* have one more baby, if that.

For Michelle, this might be a good thing; Jennifer and Jordyn seem so aimless most of the time.

Religilicious said...

"Those passing the GED Tests have demonstrated a level of knowledge equal to or greater than 40% of graduating high school seniors." To me this shows that 40% of high school seniors would not pass the GED exam.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Sounds to me like 60% of 'regular' high school graduates, then, do BETTER than those who pass a GED.

This does not seem greatness by any measure.

I find it sad that the Duggar parents set the standards so very low for their children's education.

Lisa said...

""Those passing the GED Tests have demonstrated a level of knowledge equal to or greater than 40% of graduating high school seniors." To me this shows that 40% of high school seniors would not pass the GED exam.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Sounds to me like 60% of 'regular' high school graduates, then, do BETTER than those who pass a GED.

This does not seem greatness by any measure.

I find it sad that the Duggar parents set the standards so very low for their children's education."

It's not saying that 60% of high school students do better, it's saying that the students passing the GED having the same or more intelligence than 60% of high school students. That doesn't seem sub-standard to me at all.

Sharla said...

Yes, Lisa, you must use a Google or OpenID or similar ID. You must also use your caps key to get your comment published.

heavennoseven said...

Poor Kelly. Prayers are with you.


The duggars kids must be smart if they can pass the GED. There has to more to the school then what we see.

Religilicious said...

""Those passing the GED Tests have demonstrated a level of knowledge equal to or greater than 40% of graduating high school seniors." To me this shows that 40% of high school seniors would not pass the GED exam.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

It's not saying that 60% of high school students do better, it's saying that the students passing the GED having the same or more intelligence than 60% of high school students."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I believe the math statement in the 2nd paragraph is incorrect.

Also, GED is not an intelligence test. It merely tests the amount of high school curriculum knowledge the GED student has retained.

Religilicious said...

"Lastly, your future plans may dictate whether to try for a GED or high school diploma. If you want to go to a university or a four-year college, you may want to consider getting a high school diploma, or, if that is impossible, spending a year at a community college so you can demonstrate your academic skill to a college or a university. If you simply plan on going to work, your references, resume, and the job skills you bring to the table will be much more important than whether or not you have a GED or a high school diploma."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Comparing GED to high school diploma (above).

Was unable to find info on how high school grads are chosen to take the GED in order to get the 'GED students do better than 40% of high school students'. It is possible the lowest GPA high school students are asked to take the GED in order to get this equation. Again, no greatness here.

WHY choose to offer a home schooling program that allows only a GED and THEN so many 'baby steps' in order to make the leap to an accredited 4 year college program?

I wish the Duggars had higher education aspirations for their children.

ProudMrs. said...

In the spirit of doing basic research before posting...

Progesterone as a pregnancy maintainance treatment is not isolated to getting shots (it can be pills or suppositories, for example - the doctor decides which is best). And, progesterone used in this manner is typically a treatment during the first trimester only, which certainly indicates one would need to have the treatment for 12 weeks at most. No one should assume the Bates or Duggars can or can't afford progesterone treatment based on the cost of a shot.

I certainly could find zero evidence that Mrs. Bates or Mrs. Duggar use progesterone supplements to *get* pregnant. I wish that assumption would go away.

Dar said...

I think what happened to Kelly is sad. I also think it was sad to see little Josie struggle for life last year.

I am of the opinion that both Michelle and Kelly have beautiful families. They have infant children to look after. I think they should focus their love and attention on the children with which they have already been blessed.

I thin they both give themselves permission to allow their bodies to rest and heal.

ennvee said...

I don't think anyone has ever intimated that progesterone was used to *get* pregnant; rather, it is used to REMAIN pregnant. It is under this assumption that I have posted about Kelly Bates' use of the drug in the last two pregnancies that resulted in live births. It is also MHO that this type of medical intervention goes against God's will; if God wanted the baby to be viable, it would be viable naturally, as it would (or would not) be/have been before progesterone was used as an intervention.

No one ever associated the use of progesterone with Michelle Duggar. Frankly, if she has been pregnant and miscarried since Josie was born, they could never admit it because it cancels out their reason for initially stopping birth control.

Ir really appears to me that since they've put out the Birth Control causes miscarriages mantra on the church speaking circuit, having a naturally occurring miscarriage will confuse their message. She now has to essentially remain "perfect" in terms of either having a child or not being pregnant. I hope this makes sense, but the Jim Bob/Michelle Duggar world is a world of absolutes; there is no gray area. Area that Kelly Bates or Anna can use to announce their miscarriages because they never made such a declarative statement and made a pretty good living speaking about it.

Religilicious said...

I agree with Envee that supplementing with progesterone during perimenopause in order to sustain a pregnancy makes no more sense than using birth control to prevent pregnancy IF one claims to be 'letting god decide' about wombs and live births.

Using hormones to sustain a pregnancy while being morally opposed to using hormones to prevent pregnancy is a very convenient leap in logic for those who want to claim they are 'letting god decide'.

IMO, this rationale fails any logic sniff test. It is just this kind of pretzel logic that makes some of us scratch our heads in wonder about how this can possibly be twisted to make any real sense about a morality issue.

If god controls wombs, wouldn't it make more sense that his opening a womb would automatically include also ensuring sufficient maternal hormone levels to sustain that pregnancy, ensuring a healthy, full term baby?

IMO, the fact is Mrs. Bates and Mrs. Duggar are physically past their prime in childbearing terms and it would make so much more sense if they would gracefully accept this physiologic reality rather than continue to risk another Josie scenario by tempting fate with perimenopausal pregnancies that require hormonal supplementation.

Sharla said...

It would be pretzel logic if the Duggars were using progesterone supplements to BECOME pregnant, but it is totally logical if they were to use supplements to SUSTAIN a pregnancy. At that point, supplements are no different than any other measures to ensure the health of the unborn child, such as prenatal vitamins and a healthy diet. If you believe God has entrusted you with the life of a child, then you obviously have a responsibility to care for the life entrusted to you.

Edited. Written by bluecoco.

ennvee said...

Chris Jeub confirms in the link below that the rumor about the Duggars going to Focus on the Family is indeed true. TLC cameras will also be rolling. I dare them to air the real message of their speech, which for anyone who hasn't seen one, is, to put it mildly, militantly political.

http://jeubfamily.com/2011/03/11/we-had-two-kids-were-we-wrong/#disqus_thread

Scroll down to just about the bottom of the comment section to see Jeub's confirmations.

Jennifer said...

Oh my!

Just found Suzanna kellers Picasa picture page! Look at the thanksgiving pics! Anna is wearing some super cute knee high boots with leggings and white long cute shirt!
I thought this was so interesting!
also mackenyzie is wearing jeans! yes JEANS! not leggins but jeans!

https://picasaweb.google.com/suzie.g2992


Its so interesting to see anna so cute and in style!

ennvee said...

Apparently, Josh is actually enrolled in the College Plus online going for an undergrad degree. Read more below:

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b230993_19_kids_counting_how_many_babies_are.html

I want to know what Josh's 7-year plan actually looks like since this program does not offer online law degrees and the only accredited online degree only accepts students to sit for the bar in CA. This place says you can get your undergrad in two years, and law school is 3, where are the other two years? If spent in undergrad, he might actually spend another 15 grand, or does the school state that's the tuition no matter low long it takes? It wasn't clear.

If he has to pony up another 15 grand for two more years, he's paid 30 grand for an undergrad degree, which is a lot more than he would have paid to live at home and go to a local public university. THEN he has to pay for law school out of pocket.

Given the cash outlay and Josh's (non) work ethic, I don't see this happening. Not to mention the senator he knows (likely the Tea Party guy who ousted Blanche Lincoln) may not get re-elected in 2016. Nor will the Duggars be on anyone's radar by the time he is done with his (projected) education.

ennvee said...

A new interview with Jim Bob and Michelle. Note how the publicist interrupts at the end. Uhm, we already know they're going to Colorado and why. This is also the second mention of a publicist. If they were so "real" and "forthcoming," why all the publicists and secrecy?

http://www.parentdish.com/2011/03/15/duggar-family-to-welcome-grandson-in-june/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl6|sec1_lnk1|206118

heavennoseven said...

I dont sse Mack in jeans, just some other kids

Lisa said...

"I dont sse Mack in jeans, just some other kids"

If you look really closely you can see Mackynzie's jeans in the picture where the family is on the couch and the couples are kissing. You can also see the top of the jeans in the picture where she is by herself with the caption something along the lines of "someone ate too much"

ennvee said...

Mack was in jeans when Josh put her in the cushy seat to watch TV.

Here's another Josh/Anna article from CNN. Apparently they're hot stuff; it was one of the most viewed links of the day.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/SHOWBIZ/celebrity.news.gossip/03/14/duggar.baby/index.html?hpt=Sbin

He's the oldest looking 23 year old I've ever seen. Anna doesn't look so youthful either. It's like they jumped from 20 to 40 in the space of 2 1/2 years.

brighide said...

I think I see a lot of myself in Jana. I was raised in a family 9, and my parents are fundamentalist. I am the oldest child and being a daughter I remember my early years as being similar to the Duggar's family in the beginning before they went on TLC. I too was home schooled, and was in charge of taking care of my younger siblings. I didn't have many friends outside of the church circle, nor did I experience any freedom in my teen years. I did not get to go away on trips away from my parents, sleep overs, movies, or anything of that nature. I was allowed to have girlfriends at my house where we could be watched.

I can relate to Jana and the older Duggar girls, because I was in the position of being needed at home to take care of my younger sisters and brothers. The babies kept coming, and in many ways I felt stressed and helpless. I didn't want to change diapers and fix meals when I was 18, I wanted to go out and have fun with other kids. Of course I love my brothers and sisters but I felt trapped. When I was 20 I wanted to go off to college with my girlfriends, but my mother didn't want me to because she said I didn't need college. There was always an excuse for why I had to stay longer, and help out my mom. Like Mrs. Duggar she had to have 3 surgeries back to back and it did weaken her. By the time I was 26 a family that my parents were friends with had a son who wanted to court me, and I was being pushed into it. I still had big dreams of college but then I was told I had to marry and that it was time. My younger sister was now old enough to fill my position. I ended up getting married thinking it was my only way out. I've been single for 6 years now with two beautiful kids.

To be honest I see that same look in Jana's face that I saw on mine. The feeling of being trapped and wanting to fly away. I hope that Michelle and Jimbob will start to let their daughters have more freedom, and freedom to make choices. Not every thing will go by the book. One of these children who might be unhappy will find a way out.

Celestie said...

Interesting comment from Josh about Jill "thinking" about being a doula. No mention from Michelle and Jim Bob about her studying doula-ing when asked what older kids were doing. She mentions that one likes to run into fires, and two liked the medical part of being a first responder. No where in their schedule do they mention free play for the children. Only organized fun time after dinner. No wonder we see them careening around wildly, I suppose this helps keep them from individual thought or creativity.

Was heartbreaking when Jordyn went to sit by mother and Michelle didn't do the natural act of a mother, which would be to put her arm around her or touch her knee or something to show affection. She just kept jabbering away to Jim Bob and feeding THE PRECIOUS BUNDLE". Then Jordyn left. I could just see her mind work, "this is a lost cause."

To the poster who wrote about her experiences of growing up. I hope you have found happiness now.

msrylee said...

As I read the post from the young woman who was raised similarly to the Duggar blessings, I cried. I trust her life continues to improve and she will find her own way.

As she could so clearly identify with Jana, it is probable that at least some of older Duggars feel trapped with their 'duties'. I think that many of us have been correct in suspecting that the older sisters/mommies/housekeepers/24/7 nannies may not be as happy and contented as their parents would like us to believe. JMHO.

WintaFreshQueen8 said...

"Here's another Josh/Anna article from CNN. Apparently they're hot stuff; it was one of the most viewed links of the day."

I don't necessarily means that they're popular, per se. The Duggars are pretty controversial, so a lot of the comments were discussing the whole idea of having twenty kids and whether that was a good idea. Seems a lot of people were under the impression that Michelle was pregnant again.

heavennoseven said...

I hope when they do the home birth. Its just the two of them this time and Michelle and the girls are at the big house with Mack.

msrylee said...

As this expected birth is a planned home-birth, I trust they will have all the proper equipment and plans in place. I think a home-birth is fine, provided mom and baby are fine, and emergency plans are in place. IMO, the attendants should have the certification required by the state.

Lisa said...

I agree that the midwife/doula assisting with the birth should have the proper certification but I don't see any problem with other people being present for the birth as Josh and Anna see fit. I didn't think there was any problem with Michelle and Jill attending Mackynzie's birth as long as Anna is comfortable with that. I also firmly believe Anna has a say over matters like this and if she was uncomfortable with something she would say so. I guess we will have to wait and see who is present for this birth because it will obviously be different because someone will have to be watching Mackynzie.

Kit said...

I also firmly believe Anna has a say over matters like this and if she was uncomfortable with something she would say so.

While I fully support an expectant couple's right to have whomever they choose with them at the birth, I'll have to disagree on Anna's attitude. Anna seems to have fully accepted that TLC is the sugar daddy here, and what TLC wants, TLC gets. Whether or not she "likes" it or is "comfortable" with it, she will defer to both the TLC contract and her "Look at me! Look at me!" husband, both of whom seem to have no boundaries on what they will put on television for the sake of ratings or "popularity."

However, just because she will go along with whatever they decide to do does not mean she is enjoying it or doesn't wish she could have that baby in a nice quiet room without having to worry about what she looks like on national television. I wouldn't want to be filmed for television in labor and birth, not because of modesty issues, but just because that's not a time I would want to have to think about what I looked like or what I was doing or saying. Then again, that kinda applies to my entire life, which is why I would never agree to a reality show in the first place. :>

I often wonder what Anna (and her family) really thinks about her life now. While I'm sure she's happy to live in a situation where money is not really an issue even with a growing family, have the trade-offs been worth it?

Religilicious said...

"I firmly believe Anna has a say over matters like this and if she was uncomfortable with something she would say so."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Based on what we've seen of the Duggars and their concept of Patriarchy, I'm not sure we can assume that the wives, Michelle and Anna, could/would speak up if they didn't like something. And, even if they do speak their mind, whenever their thoughts/desires differ from the Patriarch's, the BEST the women can hope for is that their Patriarch will deign to at least factor in their wife's differing opinion. Bottom line, though, according to what we've seen of the Duggars, it is the Patriarch who has the final say on all decisions.

The Duggars have been proud to raise their children to always show that 'happy countenance' - it's commendable for people to be reasonable and agreeable in their dealings with others, but having to abdicate all rights to final decision making based solely on one's gender is an entirely different thing.

I feel very sorry for the Duggar females.

heavennoseven said...

I heard Josh is doing collegeplus. What is that like vs what the girls are doing.

Why Now. He has a toddler,a pregnant wife and runs a car lot. Is he worried the tlc gravy train still stop?

ennvee said...

I KNEW there was no way Josh was paying for College Plus! Jim Bob has yet again wheeled and dealt his way to comps for the three kids living at home, and probably Josh as well.

http://www.collegeplus.org/duggars

Fields of study:

Josh: Poly Sci
Jill: Nursing
Jessa: Business (I guess someone has to take over for Anna as Josh's bookeeper once the next baby is born and she's too busy to work)
Jinger: Music (never saw her as the musician...have only seen her on the piano once and that was in a (ragtime! beat!) duet with Jessa.

I am a bit skeptical of these programs, since they're essentially CLEP-testing their way through part of college, but will have to go to a real school for a degree; people working at real colleges accept at MOST 90 units (out of 120 needed to graduate). Jill is going to have to take real nursing courses with real bodies at some point. Yes Josh, even you.

Allison said...

Jinger: Music (never saw her as the musician...have only seen her on the piano once and that was in a (ragtime! beat!) duet with Jessa.

---

Part of the page loading, but in response to Jinger and music, there is a photo in the Duggar photo album where Jinger is winning some kind of piano award from her music teacher. She and Jessa also went to that music conference. I was actually hoping Jessa would go into teaching, not business. But I do know a lot of fundamentalist homeschooling families have their own businesses so they can stay flexible between raising a family and making money, so perhaps they encouraged Jessa to do that versus becoming an actual teacher.

We will all have to see where this takes the kids, because I don't think any of us really know where CollegePlus education will take them. It could be a good thing and it could be filed with unreasonable expectations.

Lisa said...

"Fields of study:

Josh: Poly Sci
Jill: Nursing
Jessa: Business (I guess someone has to take over for Anna as Josh's bookeeper once the next baby is born and she's too busy to work)
Jinger: Music (never saw her as the musician...have only seen her on the piano once and that was in a (ragtime! beat!) duet with Jessa."

Where did you find a list of waht each child was studying? I looked at the link but couldn't find the list. Interesting that Jana doesn't seem to be doing CollegePlus with her siblings. I know John isn't either but they have already mentioned that he has his towing business. I wonder if Jana is preparing for a courtship/engagement and that's why she isn't doing the college. If she is it doesn't suprise me it hasn't been announced yet since Josh's wasn't made public knowledge until he and Anna got engaged so if Jana is courting we may very well not know about it until she is engaged as well.

ennvee said...

As I recall events, Jessa and Jinger were more or less "selected" to go to the music conference. Jana had been to SE Asia and Jill had gone somewhere. Jim Bob said it was "their turn."

They're all raised having to play music whether they have any talent or not. Jinger has never impressed me as having anything more than average talents. I have a little credibility here: I played piano until the music outgrew my fingers' ability to reach the chords and flute for over 20 years.

I guess she had to do *something* to keep her occupied. It also makes me wonder about Jana, who DOES seem to have a musical gift (as does Jill). Maybe Jana is in fact courting and Jinger is next in line to be the family music teacher.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around Jessa and Business. The family has no home business; Jim Bob likely handles the small scale finances and a professional accountant handles the big money. Accounting on a larger scale, either for her parents (keeps her around longer, surprise!) or as I said before, Josh's businesses. I can't get the picture of those receipt boxes marked "CASH" and "CREDIT CARDS" on the top shelf of their bedroom closet as Anna was giving birth.

Weird, but true. :)

Kit said...

It's great that the older kids are ostensibly continuing their educations, even if they're getting it all for free (well, they have to "pay" by posing for those pictures in CP t-shirts and being walking billboards, but plenty of us would have done that for a free college education). I won't fault JimBob for that, even if he sets my teeth on edge.

As the website itself notes, they will have to attend onsite classes at an accredited school at some point. It sounds like a couple of them already are. While there are plenty of faith-based colleges in Arkansas, I don't think there are any of the Gothard variety, so I wonder if they have to take a "chaperone" with them to class?

heavennoseven said...

It makes me sad that the girls and maybe even Josh may never finish the degree. If they do will the be able to use it. Will the girls be homemakers?

Will Josh sitll do the carlots?

babygurl_169_ said...

I just watched the CollegePlus promo spot that Michelle and Jim Bob did. It seems that the possibility of incurring debt was a serious factor in the Duggars limiting their childrens' education. While I am not surprised, I find it disheartening and sickening that they would be cheap when it comes to the betterment of their own children. God forbid one of them should have their eyes opened by the world and leave Duggarville.

Allison said...

From what it looks like, the Duggar kids will eventually have to take on-site classes at an accredited college for this to work. In the section on Jill, it even specified how labs would be required for Jill's degree. So hopefully that means the kids will be attending a real college and getting that kind of classroom experience, probably at a local community college of some sort. And this also debunks earlier discussions that Jill's enrolled in that Telos school. Clearly all the older kids except for Jana (who knows why?) and John David (towing must be pretty good!) are enrolled in CollegePlus!

I wonder if they will show the kids taking real college classes when the time comes.

Religilicious said...

"I just watched the CollegePlus promo spot that Michelle and Jim Bob did. It seems that the possibility of incurring debt was a serious factor in the Duggars limiting their childrens' education. While I am not surprised, I find it disheartening and sickening that they would be cheap when it comes to the betterment of their own children. God forbid one of them should have their eyes opened by the world and leave Duggarville."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I so agree with your comment.

What's more righteous: proudly beating one's chest about remaining debt free (as if 'Thou Shalt Not Incur Debt' is the 11th Commandment) OR caring enough about the NINETEEN children YOU'VE chosen to bring into the world that you are willing to free up some TLC coin of the realm to help the 19 achieve college graduate (from an accredited college) status?

Cyn said...

What's more righteous: proudly beating one's chest about remaining debt free (as if 'Thou Shalt Not Incur Debt' is the 11th Commandment) OR caring enough about the NINETEEN children YOU'VE chosen to bring into the world that you are willing to free up some TLC coin of the realm to help the 19 achieve college graduate (from an accredited college) status?

*************************
Since they are doing both more power to them.

If I was a Duggar kid I'd rather have a house bought and paid for in cash, and given as a wedding gift, and start my life out on the right foot. Rather than wasting money on college classes I may or may not ever use. Especially if they are only doing it to shut critics up. Now if the "children" actually chose the classes and mom and dad are willing to pony up the money for the education they wanted all well and good. That puts the Duggar kids a few steps higher than quite a few "kids" graduating high school or even college now (with massive student loan debt).

Most of us posting on these boards have one of those two debts hanging over their heads... either Student loans, or Mortgages... Stop and think for just a min or as I've heard all my life "stop and breath that into your soul", your two biggest debts no longer there, never been there, how much further along that line of being able to retire would you be? How many other things could you do without that debt?

I'm not saying all debt is 'evil' or from 'Satan' himself, my point is if you do NOT have those debts, and never incur them, your finical life just works better.

Cyn said...

Re: Jana and college classes

From what we have heard Jana is doing I'd say her plate is already rather full:

1) She is on the volunteer firefighting team.
2) She's also on the first responders team.

3) She volunteers with small children (stated while they were in Little Rock and she was missing them). Though I don't know if this is daily, bi-weekly, or weekly and depending on the ages it could take some preperation (outside of the time working with the children). For example, if she has a Sunday School class it takes time during the week to prepare the weekly lessons, crafts, and the like. I don't KNOW she does this, the example was based on my life, and watching Jana with the younger siblings.

4) If I remember right Jana is also giving harp lessons, and taking them.

5) She was also the one following the doula around and working with her (to see if that strikes her fancy).

6) That's all on top of the work the public swear the oldest girls do around the house.

She is young, and seems to have lots of energy, so I guess if push came to shove she could do college classes as well, I just personally don't see the point in them for her at this time... especially if she hasn't figured out what she wants yet.

ennvee said...

I believe the only reason the kids are doing College Plus! at all is because Jim Bob was approached to be a celebrity pitchman; a quid pro quo that works out great for both sides. The Duggars are a huge draw in even mainstream Christian circles. A Duggar endorsement will bring a lot of kids through their for-profit gates. I just worry that none of the kids will follow through with this since they must earn a portion of their units at a brick and mortar school. What if the school Jinger wants to attend to finish her music degree doesn't offer a business degree for Jessa? The sad thing is, by the time this logistical problem arises, the show will be long gone.

I saw on another board that the Duggars were a rip-roaring success at the Focus on the Family event on Saturday. I don't want to post her recap, or links to her pictures. If she posts here, she'll certainly share. It was also mentioned they are attending a homeschool event (?) in Ohio at the end of this coming week, so they won't be going home. Josie is not on this trip; they cited the altitude, although altitude could also affect Anna's pregnancy and she was there...looking bigger than she did with Mack...then again, she never lost all her baby weight.

Krissy said...

Call me cynical but I don't believe the sole reason JimBob and Michelle discourage higher education is cost, although to hear them say that is very depressing. I don't think they want their children developing ideas outside their fundamentalist lifestyle.

I guess it's easy for them to have that attitude because they live in a relatively inexpensive, rural part of the country. You probably can eke out a living selling used clunkers or towing cars. Try making ends meet in San Francisco, New York or Boston with no higher education and see how far College Plus and GED's can get you.

I've read on other blogs that people suspect Jana is courting and that's why she's not enrolled in the Plus program, but who knows, maybe she just has no interest in it. She does seem rather subdued lately and it makes me wonder what's going on. I hope she's not being forced to court a man she has no interest in.

heavennoseven said...

Didnt Jesse or Jinger wanna do photo classes? I forgot which one.

I also cant see Jill has a nurse.I see her more as teacher. I think she would do great working with special need kids. She just cant seem to handle blood or surgery to well.

Josh? I thought he wanted to be a lawyer. Wouldnt it make more sense for to take a Bussiness classes? It can help him at the carlot.

I do wonder if Jana is courting or if she was even offered the chance to take classes.

roddma said...

"I'm not saying all debt is 'evil' or from 'Satan' himself, my point is if you do NOT have those debts, and never incur them, your finical life just works better."

I find most people have money for the reasons they want. What other posters are saying is children shouldn't be denied further education because of parents wanting to uphold a debt free status for PR or religious beleifs. There are good debts and bad debts.

It seems Jim Bob expects all the boys to support huge broods on one income, self-employed, debt free. Life is uncertain sometimes. You never know what you happen and it pays to have the borrowing power. I hope Josh doesn't get into a bind one day and refuses to borrow money on religious grounds. A person's future is much more important than proclaiming debt free all over the place.

Rainbow68 said...

Does anyone think that TLC is trying to finish off the show by placing an obviously family show at such a late hour (it's 9:00 here)?

Someone posted the ratings for last week and they were less than impressive.

Allison said...

I found this write-up and photo gallery from the Focus on the Family trip. Looks like Jinger was also given braces recently. I wonder if that will make it into an episode.

So... they'll go into debt for straight teeth but not for a solid education? Whatever.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/boyscoutmomx5/sets/72157626303938922/with/5541671560/

http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/6211/My-day-with-the-Duggars

Lisa said...

Actually if you were watching carefully Jinger already had braces in part of the episode from last week. I noticed them during her interview section with Jessa. She didn't have them for all the interviews she did in that episode but I believe she had them for the very last one.

Allison said...

Actually if you were watching carefully Jinger already had braces in part of the episode from last week.

---

Yes, I did see them. What I meant was that Josiah got a segment in an episode about being put on braces, and I wonder if they will feature that for Jinger too. TLC is known for chopping up the Duggars' timeline, so it wouldn't be surprising if they went back in time...

Lynette said...

So... they'll go into debt for straight teeth but not for a solid education? Whatever.

---

When did they say they went in debt for the braces?

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I ask the same question. When did they say they put themselves in debt for her braces?

It seems it does not matter what they do others will assume things or critize them. Not too long ago some were saying that it is sad that the teens did not get their teeth done in a more timely fashion as they felt the family waited till they had the funds to do them. Some felt it was a needed debt and that the Duggars were too much involved in being debt free than to provide the proper dental care for their children.

I believe they so what they feel they can afford at the right time. I doubt if any of them have dental work that needs to be done NOW that is not being done. I also believe that they pay cash for what they get done in dental work as they do with everything else.

Rose said...

I fail to understand the assumption that the Duggars are in debt for orthodontic services also. Our orthodontist did not even offer credit. A reasonable downpayment was required to cover the appliances and first few appointments and then the balance of the treatment was paid monthly as services were rendered. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect patients to pay today for services that won't be given for a year, 18 months, or even more into the future.

Allison said...

When did they say they went in debt for the braces?

---

OK, my bad for the assumption. I just know that most braces are several thousand dollars, and with 19 kids, that's a lot of money going towards teeth.

I'm glad they're doing their teeth. I'm not saying they shouldn't do orthodontics. I just think it's funny how spending thousands of dollars for teeth is OK, but making sure their kids are getting a quality education (through student loans, scholarships, *savings plans*) is not realistic.

But you're right, I shouldn't have said they are incurring debt. That was a poor choice of words.

Cyn said...

The Duggars had savings plans for the kids college educations, at least they did for the older ones (I am now going to "assume" they kept going as they kept having kids) they discussed it in their book, and several print articles.

I'm out of town right now, or I would look up the page number for ya'll.

Religilicious said...

"... my point is if you do NOT have those debts, and never incur them, your finical life just works better."

********************************

This kind of broad-reaching assumption is far too black vs. white to have any real credibility, IMO.

It is a financial fallacy that refusing to undertake any debt, ever, for any reason, will guarantee a better long-term financial outcome/status.

IMO, as usual NEITHER extreme is very smart: it is certainly unwise to allow debt to grow beyond one's ability to pay it back. It is EQUALLY unwise to hold the 'no debt' mantra SO CLOSELY to one's chest that nothing, not even your children's futures, is worth borrowing $.

I can't imagine a better investment than helping your children with their college tuition. It's not just the dreaded DEBT. Rather, it is an investment in your children and their future.

I wish the Duggar parents were able to comprehend that
helping their children achieve a college education is more important than following, to the letter, the 'no debt' mantra preached by some.

Krissy said...

I'm also scratching my head as to why JimBob and Michelle waited so long to get their older teen children braces. That's going to stink for Jinger having braces in her late teen years. Even before the TLC series, the family was by no means poor, so I don't know if the cost/debt issue was the main concern.

I can't help but think that with increased tv and media exposure the family has become more image conscious, hence the abandoned Prairie dresses and atrocious home perms. Maybe that's why there is a sudden emphasis on the kids getting their teeth fixed.

roddma said...

"It seems it does not matter what they do others will assume things or critize them. Not too long ago some were saying that it is sad that the teens did not get their teeth done in a more timely fashion as they felt the family waited till they had the funds to do them."
I agree about waiting if it wasn't an emergency but what if on of the kid needed something right away? It isn't like the Duggars are strapped for money now. I believe that is why they met with such criticism. Most of us have to wait.

Krissy said...

I agree, Religilicous. Not all debt is necessarily bad debt.

With that said, I understand college is not for everyone and you can be successful without going to college, but pretty much the only way you're going to make it happen is if you can run your own business.

Having a college degree gives an individual more options and advantages. If any of the Duggar kids want to be an accountant, teacher, nurse (a REAL nurse), lawyer, architect, social worker, graphic designer etc, guess what, they won't even get a foot in the door without a degree from an accredited college.

Would you want your taxes done by someone without an accounting degree? Would you want a Gothard trained nurse overseeing your medical care? Would you want someone with barely a GED teaching your children the fundamentals of grammer and math? Of course not.

Hopefully there are enough small business opportunities in rural Arkansas to support the Duggar clan, but I'm doubtful.

Rainbow68 said...

I have to agree with those of you who don't consider college sinful debt. I'm almost positive that I heard Josh say that he wanted to be a lawyer years ago, as opposed to a used-car salesman operating out of a former Taco Tico. If the Duggars are like the Bates family, where Gil once said he didn't want his children - the oldest are well over 20 - to have his "training" undone by college. College is simply an investment. If the kids can't go into the world and retain their faith, how much is it worth? It's very easy to hide on a large piece of land and not interact with the rest of the world and remain both strong in your faith and morally pure. It's a lot harder fot the rest of us who interact with people who don't agree with us spiritually, and yet survive and thrive. I want to be clear - I really care about the Duggars, but their legalism and slavish devotion to all things Gothard is exasperating at times.

Kit said...

JimBob clearly said WE bought the lot. And if he were not an owner, I don't believe he would have standing to represent the business in front of the council (but maybe Springdale would let that slide, since it's such a small town). Besides, if Josh were the sole business owner, it would seem it's time for him to learn how to do things like stand up and represent his business at a rezoning hearing. I can understand bringing Dad along for his advice, but not as a proxy, unless Dad is actually his business partner/financial partner, which, as it turns out, appears to be the case.

I'm willing to bet that JimBob is also a partner/owner in the towing business as well.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

It is not the Duggar's lack of savings to send their children to college that keeps then from doing so, it is for other reasons. Just because you have $$ saved up does not mean your child will choose to go to college when they hit college age. My daughter and some of her friends do NOT know what they want to do and she is almost 21 years old. Her money remains in savings bonds till she knows what she wants to do and chooses to go there. In the mean time she chooses to work at Wendy's. I give her the freedom to make those choices. My best friend's children went to college and now owe more $$ for their student loans than I owe for our home and they do NOT have jobs and now have to pay $300 or more a month in student loans.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Maybe it was the dentist's idea to have her have braces at this time in her life. We do not know and any comment is just guessing at this point. Let us rejoice that they are able to get them for their children and trust that they are doing things in a timely fashion.

Cyn said...

JimBob clearly said WE bought the lot.
*********************************
LOL JimBob always uses the word "we". He likes to take credit for things his children and wife have done.

"We rented the house in Little Rock" (pretty sure JimBob did and just told Michelle).

"We built the house from the ground up" << gets credit for this one since it was him and any one big enough to hold a paint brush.

"We cleaned up the house" (pretty sure JimBob didn't do anything more than walk around making sure the kids were cleaning).

"We've finished packing for the trip"... LOL unless you count making sure you have all the kids on the bus, I'm not seeing JimBob doing any packing besides his own.

The blogs and the public have been giving the Duggars grief for their lack of speaking grammar skills for over 4 years, especially their use of plural pronouns, but now we want to assume he is using it correctly? Much as I love the Duggars, and their finical acumen, I personally am not going to give them a pass on their speaking grammar.

Dar said...

While realizing Jim Bob did have money before TLC, I do wonder how much real estate he has purchased since. There is no dispute that he is clever with money, but he is now making it on the backs of his children. He is very quick to discuss whether or not the individual Councilors are "business" friendly or not. If someone else wanted to rezone a property and Jim Bob didn't agree with the "business" being put on the property, he would be there to object. The vote was in his favor and that is all he cared about.

I wonder what just what his offspring will really "own". You can bet Jim Bob is controlling every nickle from T.L.C. You can bet that the "College" is also "comp". The older offspring are still being treated like children. Josh is playing a "businessman", but Daddy is behind it all. IMHO

I don't imagine any money is put aside for the girls. If there is any, the "husband" or the "authority" will get it. I still think it is unfair what these parents do to their progeny.

Kit said...

As for JimBob's use of "we" - I'll give him a pass on all the other examples mentioned, because he was referring to decisions or actions taken in the name of the family, whether or not they were actually involved.

But when HE stands up before a zoning council to represent a business PURPORTEDLY "owned" by his son, a legal adult, and says "we" bought this lot, that is pretty darned convincing evidence for my part that he is heavily involved in that business, one way or another.

IMO, I don't think JimBob is really capable of letting his sons own/run their own business at this point, whether they're capable or not. His ego and need to control simply demands he be involved. And they have been drilled for years to accept the "guidance" of their parents, so they don't even question it.

But honestly, I don't really care. It's no skin off my nose if Josh, John-David, or any of the others want to be business partners with their dad. My comments were just observations on the apparent contradiction of what TLC and JimBob want us to think. I'm just amused at their attempted machinations for TV.

Jennifer said...

Was doing a little digginG around the ark. public Records! AND James Robert Duggar aka jim bob owns alot of properties! and started buying in the very early eighties!
His parents also own alot of land, looks like he got his "buying land" SMARts from them! I havent looked up any of the kids names yet! but im sure he already has them startED on buying too! smart!

as the comment
"usual NEITHER extreme is very smart: it is certainly unwise to allow debt to grow beyond one's ability to pay it back. It is EQUALLY unwise to hold the 'no debt' mantra SO CLOSELY to one's chest that nothing, not even your children's futures, is worth borrowing $"

In my opinion and what I was taught was that you should not get into debt! do whatever you can to not get into it!
Lots of people do not plan for their kids futures! they don"t have college funds or braces funds or anything funds! Atleast the duggars have set their kids out with no debt!
I cant see how that is a bad thing!

Jennifer said...

i finally figured out when the duggar became debt free! it took them seven Years and i found that it said when josh was 11!
also when re reading her everything they say! they only say to get out of debt "buy use and safe the difference" they never said once you get debt free that you have to keep doing that!
i never realized that till today!

ennvee said...

Here is the City Council agenda for the appeal of the new car lot rezoning. Note the date (Jan. 25th) and WHO was denied the request. It was not Joshua Duggar.

http://www.springdalear.gov/docs/agendas/2011_01_25.pdf

If that doesn't work, use this:

http://www.springdaleark.org/agenda.asp

and go to the agenda for January 25th.
Jim Bob is the owner of the property. Reading a copy of the minutes, it stated the value of the land; even with TLC's income, not even Josh Duggar could afford to pay for that lot in cash. Someone posted Jim Bob's holdings. For you property sleuths (I'm not one of them) look up 1486 W. Sunset (the street Josh mentioned), Sprindale 72764. See who comes up as the owner. It won't be Josh. He would have spoken for himself or had an attorney speak on his behalf. Isn't Jim Bob the one who is supposedly deathly afraid of public speaking? (It's contradictions like that and his career path that make me wary of everything that comes out of his mouth. Sorry...the guy reeks "used car salesman/politician")

It also came out during the meeting that the bank wanted about $500k on the rental property (this was mentioned on the show, except for the exact amount).

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Even if JB Duggar is helping his son's with their businesses by either $ wise or speaking up at meeting for zoning I see that no difference than parents giving the child money to pay for their college.

Why would a parent not help a child establish a business? Paying for your child's education or help them establish a business, either way you are investing in your child's future.

M-A said...

Cyn said: “If I was a Duggar kid I'd rather have a house bought and paid for in cash, and given as a wedding gift, and start my life out on the right foot”

Of course – a “Duggar kid” wouldn’t know the option of their adult life beginning way, WAY before getting married in the first place! That includes trying to match talents/interests with profession, or at least securing an income at all before having to support and report to a spouse/family. Again, they can leave at 18 and do what they want (steeper hill from their upbringing or not), but I wonder if the Duggar parents realize what a hole they’re currently digging for their own kids:

- Offer a GED devoid of college prep / or scholarship opportunities;
- No part-time work outside the family, so no experience under their belt;
- Refuse to incur debt for a trade/education so kids can support themselves or the large family they’re taught to have;
- Financially cut them off when/if they leave (per Michelle’s statements) ill-equipped for to qualify for job, loan, or further education.

If Michelle and Jim Bob had been raised the way they raise their own kids, they could not have afforded them in the first place.

M-A said...

I agree that Jim Bob helping Josh out is the fatherly thing to do and I applaud it. I just wish Josh had taken A NORMAL JOB before running his own business, or learned the ropes BEFORE getting married. Seems like all this could have been done the minute his GED was complete. Maybe “Duggar Time” wouldn’t exist if any of them actually had to show up some place or be fired!

I think people are hard on Jim Bob though – I don’t think he’s personally that bad! He’s giddy like any dad whenever a new baby comes or his kids do something cool, is affectionate, and shows up to help his son out. He may be the patriarch, but it looks more like that’s because Michelle assigned him the duty. She seems to wear the pants in that family (ironic, huh?), making Jim Bob like most husbands out there: Keeping the money coming in and keeping mom happy so that everyone is happy.

That said, I have a hard time digesting the Duggars’ holier-than-thou attitude when they take advantage of repo’ed property like crazy (isn't it unchristian to find opportunity in others’ misfortunes?), and obviously have great business sense that seems to stem from shady influences and such. Sounds like the “outside” world to me. Again, they’re part of it whenever it suits them but judgingly reject it when it sounds righteous.

Religilicious said...

"Isn't Jim Bob the one who is supposedly deathly afraid of public speaking? (It's contradictions like that and his career path that make me wary of everything that comes out of his mouth. Sorry...the guy reeks "used car salesman/politician")"

********************************

I completely agree with your assessment of Mr. Duggar.

Re: another post stating that it took SEVEN YRS for the Duggars to get out of debt.... that's alot of time/alot of debt. If one goes into 7 years worth of heavy debt when purchasing initial investments, how different is this from other Americans in debt, you know, the ones the Duggars often imply lack the alleged Duggar ethics and restraing.

Incurring debt to the degree of requiring 7 yrs to pay off these debts, THEN proudly proclaiming oneself 'debt free' only AFTER initial investments were made seems typically hypocritical IMO.

Too bad the Duggars think it's ok to go into debt to purchase real estate, but college tuition loans are somehow deemed less worthy.

Lisa said...

"I just wish Josh had taken A NORMAL JOB before running his own business, or learned the ropes BEFORE getting married. Seems like all this could have been done the minute his GED was complete. Maybe “Duggar Time” wouldn’t exist if any of them actually had to show up some place or be fired!"

I was under the impression that Josh started working on trying to get his business running not too long after completing his GED. Same with John. It was my impression that the men have to be financially stable and able to support a family before they can get married. If Josh and his business hadn't been stable enough then he and Anna would have had to wait longer to get married.

ennvee said...

Regarding how Jim Bob spends his money to help his grown, married children, didn't Michelle basically do a neck roll and say: "Leave and cleave, baby." (That's a direct quote you can find on the wedding episode.)

I had to leave and while I didn't "cleave," my parents did not help me financially, EVER. As someone pointed out, despite what Jim Bob and Michelle say, they are no different than "normal families" with money.

Not to mention there was no was the Little Prince was going to be allowed to fail as long as the TLC cameras were rolling, despite the fact the poor kid looked like he was going to keel over from a heart attack due to stress and physical labor during the last episode.

He wasn't even 23 years old at the time. I hope Anna starts learning the meaning of portion control for BOTH of them. If things go the way they are, she'll be a widow with a passel of blessings to raise before she's 40. And she'll be grossly overweight; she lost little of her post-partum weight...definitely nowhere as slim as her wedding day. At 21, you should be able to drop that weight (as did her sister Rebekah) at the drop of a hat.

Sorry the dietitian in me speaking. I respect Anna's devotion to feeding Mack well, but it doesn't seem to extend to what she feeds Josh and her own body, which will be nurturing as many babies as Josh can give her.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I do not see the Duggars proudly proclaiming they are debt free. They happen to learn over the years that is a better way for them to live. It does not mean they were hyprocrates because at one time they were in debt, it only means they have learned and have chosen a different path to handle their lifestyle.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I see nothing unchristian to take advantage of something that is repo. It is not as if they are taking items away from those who got over their head and could not afford to keep their investments.

You do not know to what extent the Duggars bless others with their means so perhaps when they get something very inexpensive and make a good profit they have more money and means to bless others.

Krissy said...

I love Anna, but I agree her and Josh need to start eating healthier sooner rather than later. If I never watched the show and had to guess how old they were I'd put them as a couple in their early thirties not early twenties.

Anna looks beautiful with the more stylish hair and a touch of makeup, but when I watched the last episode she appeared further along than three months into her pregnancy judging by her figure. I know tv and baggy clothes don't do much to flatter her, but I'm surprised she didn't have more success shedding her first pregnancy pounds, especially with the breastfeeding.

Does anyone know if their religious beliefs frown upon women exercising or going to gyms?

Lisa said...

It's possible that they frown upon going to the gym but I know that Michelle has said in multiple inteviews that she has either a treadmill or eliptical in their home that she works out on in the mornings so they aren't against working out in general.

heavennoseven said...

I hope the threadmill is in a safe place. I dont even wanna think about how hurt the little kids can get, if they are playing with it.

Jennifer said...

michelle said she walks on her treadmill every morning before anyone in the house is up! while working out she talks or texts messages with her best friend from I Believe she said high school! but its a friend she has know for over twenty years!

Jennifer said...

krissy go here suzanna kellers Photo picassa page! there is a picture of anna with her sisters on black friday and she is not wearing baggy clothes at all! in fact she is wearing some pretty sexy knee high boots!
But I do think that most guys gain weight the first few years of marriage and gain weight during their wives pregnancies too! i agree josh does need to start working out and loose that weight off! but Josh isnt at teen anymore he is almost twenty four! he is No different than anyone that gains the college weight in my opinion!
plus we only see twenty threee mins that are thrown together!
My brother works at the place where the production crew stays and they only film max three days a month!

Cyn said...

The Duggars have some used treadmills and something else in their "goodbye" room by that back door they go in and out of on a regular basis. They must have just gotten them cause they haven't been there long, and it looked more like they had just stuck them there till they figured out where they were going to go. We saw them in one of the last few episodes.

Not being an exerciser or gym person I couldn't tell you what they were exactly just that they look like those I see on late night cable TV with Chuck and the rest.

Maggie said...

To our poster named Jennifer, can you email me at shatzie1980@yahoo.com Thanks, Maggie

ennvee said...

I do not see the Duggars proudly proclaiming they are debt free.

==================================

They've mentioned Jim Sammons' Financial Freedom Seminar so many times I can recite the spiel verbatim. They credit him for not incurring (any more) debt very early in their marriage. He is mentioned in their book and is prominently linked on the "resources" page on their website. He is mentioned in their stump speeches.

I'd say that more than qualifies as proud proclamation of their chosen lifestyle. FWIW, any bills I incur on my VISA are paid off in full every month. However, I'm not rich because I had to feed myself and put a roof over my head with no help (spousal or parental) to buy land when it was still affordable.

I imagine everyone here, Christian, atheist, Buddhist or whatever, worked like dogs (either at jobs or in school) when they were in their early 20's, but few of us will have enjoyed the run of luck the Duggars have experienced.

Some people are just fortunate like that. But living "debt free" does not make you any better than your neighbor carrying a mortgage, student loans and credit card debts. Just different. My problem with the Duggars in this area is that they come off as so sanctimonious about it, yet it's not been proven that they are willing to go into debt, as long as it's all in the family.

Krissy said...

Envee, I think that's what irritates everyone about the Duggars' proudly proclaiming their "debt free" lifestyle. Well considering they feed their kids crap food, don't spend money sending them to college, don't spend money allowing them to participate in organized clubs/sporting activities and they get free nanny/maid services from the older girls, then they golldarn better be debt free.

The worst is when Josh is so smug about it. Well Joshie, it's easy when you and your wife are handed a house already owned by the family and Daddy hands you a business that you didn't have to take loans out to start.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Mentioning a program or advertising a program which they teach does not mean they are proudly talking about them being debt free. It is what it is, just advertising. Obviously they feel that is a good way to live and have benefit from it and know others too that have and they are in the business of giving out seminars so what is wrong with mentioning it? Saying it is done proudly is an opinion. Trying to share or justify how others live seems to be being defensive. They are just sharing another way to live and not only sharing but they give seminars on how to be debt free.

There are others who have similar seminars such as Dave Ramsey. I do not think Dave and others who share this belief that is is good to be debt free and than teach how to become debt free are full of pride, it is a lifestyle of choice, nothing more.

Allison2357 said...

I know this comment was from a while ago, but I think that if we are talking about the behavior of the older Duggar kids versus the younger Duggar kids, it would be beneficial to consider the age difference as a big factor. Kids will be kids, and I think it is possible that the reason the older kids are more well-behaved is because they have had more time to grow and learn. If the behavior of the Duggar kids gets better the older they are, wouldn't it stand to reason that the difference in behavior between the eldest and the youngest could be a sign of good parenting in progress, rather than the neglect of the younger children? Just an opinion...

Kit said...

if we are talking about the behavior of the older Duggar kids versus the younger Duggar kids, it would be beneficial to consider the age difference as a big factor.

I think what people are "comparing" is the behavior of the older kids when the show began, when they were only slightly older than the younger children are now (as a group). Not their behavior as of today.

The older children (as a group) were MUCH more "sedate" or "obedient" or whatever title you want to put on it. I remember a couple of the girls explaining and demonstrating (by themselves) the laundry "jurisdiction" in the old house - compared to the recent show where one of the boys was rolling in the dirty clothes even as Michelle attempted to engage him in what he was supposed to be doing. Several other similar examples come to mind.

Prior to the show, it didn't seem as if the older children had much opportunity to be out in the world. There just wasn't that much going on in their lives, their family trips were pretty much limited to the ATI events, and their parents were the primary adults in their lives. The younger children have been exposed from a much earlier age to a broad range of people and experiences. They don't seem to have the same close parental oversight/involvement their siblings received, and those same siblings, while they no doubt take care of the younger kids well, don't have the same need to inculcate them with the rigid ATI mindset. Case in point - when was the last time you heard JimBob or Michelle talking about how each of their younger children meet with them every week to "examine their hearts" as the older ones did?

I have seen both groups change from the experience, but the difference between the older kids then and the younger kids now is profound, from my perspective.

Cyn said...

I remember a couple of the girls explaining and demonstrating (by themselves) the laundry "jurisdiction" <<< 1 documentary in a year... a "Reader's digest" version of their lives

"One of the boys was rolling in the dirty clothes even as Michelle attempted to engage him in what he was supposed to be doing" <<< long version of their lives.

The Duggars haven't hidden this side of their lives, if anything TLC in the first few shows just didn't air it, and by then every one was assuming the documentaries where exactly what their lives were like on a daily basis. Even Michelle in the first documentary said "this is our goal, if we hit everything on this sheet in one day it would be a miracle, but at least we know where we are going".

They didn't claim to have perfect children and several articles around the time of the second airing of the first documentary speak to the chaos, and "furniture climbing" going on in the house... JimBob called it a 3-ring circus; none of which we saw on the documentaries but we now see in the daily lives of the children.

Now the fans (and the media) on the other hand (in the begining) praised the daylights out of their 'well-behaved' kids. How well they talked to their parents, the chores, the building of the house, the home church, etc to where in some people's mind this is all the Duggars have ever known. (not any you personally, just in general)

The fans wanted to pretend these kids were "Laura Ingalls" and co. and the clothes they were wearing didn't help. The Duggars though, talked about the real daily life in the interviews, the reporters talked about it (local TV, national TV, print (both local and national), magazines) but people only remember what they saw; quiet obediant well spoken children.

Religilicious said...

Re: Mr. Duggar gifting his son with real estate:

'Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.'

'Knowledge is the best charity.'

'It is better to know how yourself than to ask from others.'

I wish the Duggar parents would heed not ONLY the biblical Proverbs, but these as well. Their children would likely be better served long-term with a college education of their own than with hand-me-down used car lots.

JMO.

Dar said...

The older children have been "working" on this show since its inception. The fact that the "Real Estate" is in Jim Bob's Name again brings to mind the question as to how much they are paid by TLC.

The children 16 years and older should have a nice, tidy sum earned over the past few years.

This is what I think is duplicitous about Jim Bob. I wonder how much Property he has acquired since TLC. I also question (along with a previous poster) why his mother is living with them as a laundry maid? It has been stated that his parents had quite a bit of Real Estate.

Jim Bob has no talent. TLC is there because of his children. They should be given the money and make their own decisions on how to spend it, invest it or what institution of "higher" learning they will attend. He treats all his offspring like "children". Josh talks a good talk, but he acts like a child because that is how he is treated by his parents. I just think it is unfortunate that this man is given so much "authority" because he is a "man"

SuzanneDeAZ said...

He treats all his offspring like "children". Josh talks a good talk, but he acts like a child because that is how he is treated by his parents. I just think it is unfortunate that this man is given so much "authority" because he is a "man"

___________________________________

He is given authority as he has fathered and successfully raised a lot of children. He does have a lot of talent to have been able to not only father 19 children but to have raised them. Most people who know this family first hand are impressed with the behavior of these children.

Allison said...

TLC has posted some new pictures of the Duggar home. Nothing we haven't seen in the show, but they have a snapshot of their daily "schedule."

http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/19-kids-and-counting/duggar-home-pictures.htm

Jennifer said...

"Food for thought about TLC, the Duggars and Quiverfull, which of course they now deny."

Can you show me what episode they denied being part of the quiverfull movement?

ive been looking for it but cant find it? or was it in newspaper interview? if so can you post where i can read about it?

M-A said...

A simple mortgage is debt. Before the Duggars got debt free, they had one like most average families who could never afford both rent and sacing up to pay cash for a small home. I bet their paremts also helped them afford their real estate licenses with either money or the right to work for outside employers wjile living under their roog. Both things they don't seem to offer their kids yet expect them to provide for large.families of their owm without so much as a modest mortgage loan.

Religilicious said...

"He is given authority as he has fathered and successfully raised a lot of children. He does have a lot of talent to have been able to not only father 19 children but to have raised them. Most people who know this family first hand are impressed with the behavior of these children."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

"Talent" is required to sire children?

Authority is given to him based on his having children? Where does that leave childless men?

To some, the absolute parental control even into adulthood is not seen as a measure of stellar parenting.

Cyn said...

For Jennifer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6WRJOL0_X0

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Religilicious has left a new comment on the post "Free Discussion March 2011":

"He is given authority as he has fathered and successfully raised a lot of children. He does have a lot of talent to have been able to not only father 19 children but to have raised them. Most people who know this family first hand are impressed with the behavior of these children."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

"Talent" is required to sire children?

Authority is given to him based on his having children? Where does that leave childless men?

To some, the absolute parental control even into adulthood is not seen as a measure of stellar parenting.

---------------------------------------


Did I say that he ONLY fathered. I said he fathered and RAISED his children, he is supporting them and giving them a loving home. I think there is a lot to admire about this man even though I may not have adopted the same life style as he has.

Allison said...

Found this behind-the-scenes video of the rehearsal for the Focus on the Family appearance. Not too much happened, other than listening to them sing, but at one point apparently Jordyn runs out a side door without anyone noticing. The children had to yell to Jim Bob that she just left the room. Why was no one watching her if all the girls are up on stage?? Ugh.

Allison said...

Whoops! I forgot to include the link:

http://www.focusonlinecommunities.com/blogs/Finding_Home/2011/03/24/video-behind-the-scenes-with-the-duggars

Celestie said...

He is given authority as he has fathered and successfully raised a lot of children.

-----------

He certainly has fathered many children, but we do not know how successfully raised they are. Right now he has approximately 5 (I don't keep track of these things) children who are legally adults. Only one of those is not living at home. The one who is on his own was given a house and is running one of his father's businesses. We don't know if he would be a functional adult without these advantages. We will not know if the rest of the adults are successful, until they are set out in the world to make their ways as independent adults, without his authority over them. Having a house full of well behaved adults, and not so well behave children, does not successful fatherhood make, to my mind anyway.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Well, to my mind and many others he has succesfully raised his kids. They are are well mannered and regardless if they are living at home helping the family or if they are or not in college I see it was very sucessful. He has provided a loving, caring home without any outside assistance like welfare for a lot of children. Many people, like myself see this as successful.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

As far as Josh running the business, that to me is successfull regardless if it was one time his father's business. He is operating it and has even been involved in starting a second car lot. He knows the business quite well of how to save money and buy more cars and fix them up and sell them. That to me is no small potatoes.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"A simple mortgage is debt. Before the Duggars got debt free, they had one like most average families who could never afford both rent and sacing up to pay cash for a small home. I bet their paremts also helped them afford their real estate licenses with either money or the right to work for outside employers wjile living under their roog. Both things they don't seem to offer their kids yet expect them to provide for large.families of their owm without so much as a modest mortgage loan. "

--------------------------------

So what is it? One posting I read that the business of the car lot is Jim Bob's. If that is so then he IS doing more than just expecting his kids to have large families, he is providing a way his son can make a decent living.

roddma said...

"He has provided a loving, caring home without any outside assistance like welfare for a lot of children."

'Outside assistance' can mean lots of things. The Duggars may not believe in welfare as far as government goes but it isn't saying they never got help from elsewhere which is still charity. True a few take advantage of welfare but sometimes families get on it becuase they have no other recourse. Does this make them bad people?

roddma said...

"“If I was a Duggar kid I'd rather have a house bought and paid for in cash, and given as a wedding gift, and start my life out on the right foot”"
I would rather have a home I bought and paid for myself, even a little debt, and feel independent.

"Lots of people do not plan for their kids futures! they don"t have college funds or braces funds or anything funds! Atleast the duggars have set their kids out with no debt!
I cant see how that is a bad thing!"

It is bad thing because they aren't being taught independence from parents. Parents aren't always going to be around. Those who do not plan for their kids future are the sometimes the stuck with 30 year olds living off their couch or in their basement. Who's to say this won't happen with the Duggars? There are still a few Duggar males to go.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The Duggars admit that they did receive clothing from others years ago as they said sometimes bags of clothing were left on their porch. However, this does not take away from the fact that the parents, that includes Mr. Duggar has provided very well for their children. Just because a person or family has received some type of charity throughout their life does not mean they are "less than". The Duggars throughout their life have given to others much more than they have received. They sowed a lot of their time and means to enlarge the Bates home. They gave the Bates their red mini bus. Just in those two things they have sowed more into the lives of others than most families have.

They give countless hours to their communities and they take mission trips often bringing huge amounts of gifts to the needy. The whole beauty about "charity" which means love, is that there must be a receiver as well as a giver, and most people, like the Duggars, play both roles during their lifetime.

M-A said...

SuzanneDeAZ said So what is it? One posting I read that the business of the car lot is Jim Bob's. If that is so then he IS doing more than just expecting his kids to have large families, he is providing a way his son can make a decent living.
==================================
Not sure what your question is but since it was in response to my comment... what I meant to say is that in all the “debt-free” talk, we forget that having a mortgage is “debt” too, without which most people could never afford a house (pretty rare to afford saving cash for one WHILE paying rent and feeding a family on ONE salary (since the wife must be home).

I guess I’m saying they’re illogically mixing up life models. They want their kids to start large families at a young age (like them) but neglect that they had a trade, both worked, waited to start a family, and had a mortgage (debt). Doesn’t add up.

M-A said...

SuzanneDeAZ said “Just because a person or family has received some type of charity throughout their life does not mean they are "less than".”
==================================

I agree, except that charity is a beautiful act of kindness with precious little to go around. I don’t understand how two capable people with trades and jobs can feel comfortable taking a bag of clothing left on the porch when they deliberately kept choosing to take on more than they paycheck could handle at the time when they could already have afforded a larger-than-usual family on their own. If they needed what was in that bag, then no, they could NOT afford their family. Shouldn’t that bag have gone to a family who tragedy hit? HUGE difference between buying used and taking charity that surely came from someone feeling bad for the kids, not the parents. “God will provide” is great, but isn’t this kind of freeloading on God’s couch? Not saying they did not pay it forward eventually (especially with the Bates’), but isn’t taking charity with no clue if you’ll ever be able to pay it forward the same as owing the bank?

Celestie said...

Well, to my mind and many others he has successfully raised his kids. They are well mannered and regardless if they are living at home helping the family or if they are or not in college I see it was very successful. He has provided a loving, caring home without any outside assistance like welfare for a lot of children. Many people, like myself see this as successful.

----
Being a well behaved adult is not necessarily a successful adult. The NOTS, like not on welfare, not on drugs, not a drunk, also to me, do not signal success, they are a given. Being a well mannered person, with no vices. Living in a room provided by your parents, businesses provide by parents, with decisions made by parents, is not being raised successfully. To me, raising children successfully means that your adult children can live independently. It means: they can making well thought out decisions about their careers, their college goals, if any, their choice of mates and their choice of lifestyles. Personally I think this is done best by giving them decisions to make from the time they are very young. Hopefully they progress toward independence as they mature. Of course, we all try to help our kids get started, maybe paying for college, maybe with helping with a down payment on a home or business. But some time, independence from parents has to click in. I was fully independent, a college graduate, and working at age 22, living in a city 2000 miles from home. Both of my daughters were independent at around the same age, college graduates, living in foreign countries. One pursuing graduate work, the other working in her field. I see that as successful on my parents part and on my husband and my part. Now with our two little boys we are starting again.

I don't see any Duggar working toward independence in thought word or deed, even Josh.

In the past, posters have mentioned "they shouldn't have to make decisions until they are ready and know what they want." I say, independence is a journey. The train to independent thinking seems to have left the station for the Duggars. Thus, I do not believe the Duggars are raising children successfully.

roddma said...

"Just because a person or family has received some type of charity throughout their life does not mean they are "less than"."

That is the point I'm trying to make and it just doesn't apply to Duggars. However, you can't proclaim you achieved debt-free status all by yourself when you got debt-free becuase of others' kindness. While the Duggars appreciated all the help over the years, they seem to hide this fact. The difference between the Duggars and other families in need is the other families chose to stop having kids or delay anymore kids until the situation got better. It make no sense to keep bringing children into the world and continuously relying on the help of others by welfare or charitable organizations.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Just cause a family accepted a bag of clothing that was left on the porch does not mean they should have not had those children. I am sure they would have found a way to have dressed their children without the bags of clothing. I know as a child one Christmas my dad was not able to pay child support due to an injury and many felt sorry for us and brought us bags of clothing. We did not need them as we were the best dressed kids in town, better dressed than anyone in church or school being my mother was a professional seamstress and made us dresses that most could not afford.

We do not know if they passed those bags to others as mom did. They certainly were not going to cut down their family size or change their belief in birth control just because somone left a few bags on clothing on their porch.

Now, years later this family is passing down many of the gifts given to them by the public as we know as a fact being one of the bloggers felt "hurt" when her gift was returned and a note suggesting they donate it to a needier family. Like I said this family gives a lot and most likely will continue to give much more than they receive.

Sharla said...

It's time for another reminder that the blog is about the Duggars. We're seeing comments again that discuss topics in general without any reference to the Duggars in particular. Thanks!

Sharla said...

If you want to discuss stay at home daughters or other beliefs in general, please go over to the free discussion blog.

butterfly said...

SuzanneDeAZ said...
It is not the Duggar's lack of savings to send their children to college that keeps then from doing so, it is for other reasons. Just because you have $$ saved up does not mean your child will choose to go to college when they hit college age. My daughter and some of her friends do NOT know what they want to do and she is almost 21 years old. Her money remains in savings bonds till she knows what she wants to do and chooses to go there. In the mean time she chooses to work at Wendy's. I give her the freedom to make those choices. My best friend's children went to college and now owe more $$ for their student loans than I owe for our home and they do NOT have jobs and now have to pay $300 or more a month in student loans.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Going to college isn't to get a job- it's to get an education- so your friend's children may be out of work, but they are educated, they have improved themselves!! Definitely worth the cost of the student loans. I would much rather be educated than not (and I am- on the military's dime). As for the Duggar's, I pray at least 1 of those children chooses their life path, regardless of their parent's desires.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I doubt that very many people would go to college if they did not think they will be gainfully employed in their field of study. Employment and the the "pay grade" does play a factor when one chooses college.

M-A said...

"A bag of clothing that was left on the porch does not mean they should have not had those children. I am sure they would have found a way to have dressed their children without the bags of clothing. I know as a child one Christmas my dad was not able to pay child support due to an injury and many felt sorry for us and brought us bags of clothing"

I hope your father got well. However, you had been DERAILED by unexpected hardship while the Duggars had (presumably) designed their rail to at least at times depend on others' assistance, which I am saying should have gone to people in situations such as yours (or far, far worse). I'm not saying they should not have had so many kids or changed their beliefs, but at least be realistic and honest about what it entails and fully expect skeptics to poke holes in the "righteousness" they have branded on a medium they deplore in the first place (TV).

Jennifer said...

Thus, I do not believe the Duggars are raising children successfully.

3/29/2011 12:44 PM

Have to say I disagree! While they are not raising them a normal or hip way. That doesn"t mean they aren"t raised successful. Josh is paying rent for his house as its public record. He is working and married with two kids! He isn't at college partying and drinking or drugs! He is not getting welfare checks nor using them to buy drugs etc.
How is that not Successful? Even though he has made money the bulk of his money through TLC! That doesn"t matter to me~
I Know of many CEO's of big companies who never went to college and some who dropped out of high school! Yes I believe in going to college. but it's not for everyone!
As far as I can tell Josh and Anna aren't doing everything his parents tell them to do! He has a tv with cable! lol he did say they watch educational shows! But that could be tbn station or discovery is a learning channel! He has his big flat screen in the front Living room and his parents keep their little Tv Unplugged in the closet so there is a difference.
Why do people think he has to follow his parents rules and what they do now that He is married and living off his own money. Michelle didn't follow her parents life style nor did Jim bob!

Jennifer said...

Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $1 to 2.5 million and employs a staff of approximately 1 to 4.

That is for Champion Motors!

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Jennifer has left a new comment on the post "Free Discussion March 2011":

Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $1 to 2.5 million and employs a staff of approximately 1 to 4.

That is for Champion Motors!
------------------------------------

If this is true than all of the comments about Josh not being able to make it on his own supporting his family is nothing but speculation. Often a business brings in more money than one can earn with a college degree.

Goob said...

The figure of $1 million to $2.5 million that Jennifer posted is from here:

http://www.manta.com/c/mtmxmqf/champion-motor-cars

That figure is the estimated annual sales for Champion Motorcars, not Josh's take home amount. Of course, he'd take home a lot less than that because most of that would need to be reinvested in new automobiles for the lot, etc. Still, I'm sure he probably does very well for someone his age.

rcadra2 said...

With all the people in the Duggar house, I wonder what it's like to do the grocery shopping? Can you imagine how many bags you'd have to tote home every week? And when the Bates visited, they'd almost need food delivery trucks, like a school or cafeteria would use.

I wonder who does the shopping? It must be an all-day event to make the list, go to the store, lug it all home and store it.

Krissy said...

Yeah right, there is no way in heck Josh's business brings in over a million a year. Especially with those junkers he has on his lot. If he sold each car at an average of lets say, $5000 (which is estimating very high), he would have to sell 15-20 cars a month to gross a million bucks a year. And I don't know about any of you, but I've seen the same cars on that lot since he took over the business, like that limo.

Religilicious said...

What are the structures visible from and abutting the Duggar front yard?

Please tell me they are not some kind of rental storage unit facility.

Kit said...

If manta.com is as accurate as zillow.com, the true revenue for Champion Motors could be anywhere from $0 to the $2.5M number. :>

I also note it says the owner is Jim Duggar.

Religilicious said...

Does anyone here know who (if anyone) verifies data on the website noted here claiming such an unbelievable (operative word) amount of used car sales business done by Mr. Duggar, Jr.?

Is there any validation to ensure credibility at the quoted site or is it simply an internet advertising option?

Rainbow68 said...

I wondered the same things about the trailers (?) on the property. Storage units? The house is pretty and so is the land. These buildings are eyesores. Do you think it's anything to do with filming?

A said...

I live about 10 minutes from Josh and Anna's house. I drove past it today, and they have a satellite dish on their roof.

Celestie said...

I very sincerely doubt without his father giving him everything, he would have been even this successful. If you argue that other parents give their kids everything, yes they do. And to me, that is not successful parenting either.

I suspect that most of the Duggars do not appear to be college material (speaking of normal colleges, not the for profit variety,) so their going to real college and getting real degrees doesn't factor into my thinking on them being successful adults.

butterfly said...

SuzanneDeAZ said...
If this is true than all of the comments about Josh not being able to make it on his own supporting his family is nothing but speculation. Often a business brings in more money than one can earn with a college degree.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
That is untrue because one can have a degree AND a business- so that argument is moot. Again I say, it is better to be educated than UNeducated and the Duggar's ought to at least have that choice for themselves....and then go be merry homemakers or whatever they want to do or not do with their lives.

roddma said...

" Often a business brings in more money than one can earn with a college degree." College or trade is a nice back-up. Not all businesses are a success. It is no reason to discourage further education. I doubt if a small car lot in Arkansas given the economy is rkaing in $1 million. If that was the case everyone would be in the used car business.

"Josh is paying rent for his house as its public record. He is working and married with two kids! He isn't at college partying and drinking or drugs! He is not getting welfare checks nor using them to buy drugs etc.
How is that not Successful?"

Because he was always under the watchful eye of the parents and rushed into marriage without even living on his own. Renting does not impress me cause most anyone can. I would be more impressed about no drugs and partying if the Duggar kids were turned loose from the parents.

Allison said...

I found this video of Michelle and Jim Bob discussing their political life. It's pretty much what we've always heard before, but it might be interesting for some folks.

http://www.citizenlink.com/blog/2011/03/25/video-friday-five-jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-on-juggling-family-and-politics/

There is also a written transcript that includes some stuff that is not in the video.

sosweety1011 said...

Well, it is now clear that JimBob owns the used car lot, not Josh. Who knows if Josh is required to pay JimBob rent or a portion of the profits, but knowing JimBob, I suspect that he gets a portion of the profits.

Second, Josh has employees. Either he pays them a wage (hourly or salary), or more likely he pays them a commission on the sales they make. Either way, those who have been calculating how much Josh might take home on an annual basis did not factor this in.

Every business has expenses. Josh does not own the property where the car lot is located. In most cases, that means a person would be paying rent. In addition, a business owner has an insurance policy to protect the business assets. Phone lines, electricity, office supplies, payroll expenses, the costs associated with repairing junkers so you can resell them -- all that is deducted from the profits.

If Josh is bringing home $50,000 a year, I'd be very surprised and call him darn lucky. There is no way he's bringing home more than that, and it's probably considerably less.

Having a college degree, or having training through an accredited program in a valuable skill of one sort or another -- is the smart way to go. Josh has neither. Further, I read that the College Plus program is an expensive way to learn about the various tests you need to pass to get into college. It's not a college program at all. Anyone could find the same information, for the cost of the test only, with a bit of effort. College Plus sounds like a rip off to me.

slackermom said...

Is there any validation to ensure credibility at the quoted site or is it simply an internet advertising option?

Our own small business is listed on manta.com and we have never been contacted to verify their information.

The information is extremely inaccurate for our business. Their revenue estimates are 5 to 10 times what our revenues actually are. They also list us as having 10-19 employees. We have 3 full-time and 1 part-time employee. They also list our company VP as someone who stopped working for us for 10 years ago.

I wouldn't rely on manta.com to judge the success of Josh's business.

That is untrue because one can have a degree AND a business- so that argument is moot
I agree.
Why is there the assumption that people who own businesses lack college degrees? Owning a business is not simply a default option for those who cannot handle or choose not to attend college.

ennvee said...

Further, I read that the College Plus program is an expensive way to learn about the various tests you need to pass to get into college. It's not a college program at all. Anyone could find the same information, for the cost of the test only, with a bit of effort. College Plus sounds like a rip off to me.

================================

You can go to community college, spend maybe $20/unit (that was the going rate in CA two years ago...I think it's $26/unit now) and get teacher/student interaction and talk to a counselor FOR FREE regarding how to continue on to obtain a college degree.

It's kind of fishy that 0-7 of the adult children have chosen to even attend a Christian college and all of a sudden we have four enrolled in College Plus! with a picture of the Duggars on their masthead as endorsers.

Lots of people could get by without college degrees in Jim Bob's generation, IF they got started early, had a talent (and Jim Bob is a born salesman, which is the most common route non-college educated people tend to make the most money these days) and had the means, they could succeed. Bill Gates was a genius
who dropped out of Harvard because he had an idea and parents with money.

Not so easy to do in this economic climate, unless one is educated, a genius, has family seed money (Josh), or a combination of the three. Otherwise, you're in the pool of people who can't even work as a secretary without a college degree these days.

That is precisely why I went BACK to school; I do not have the personality to sell and that was the only way I was going to make more than I was making without a college degree. Four years, and tons of stress later (school is HARDER than work; for those who didn't go to college, trust me on this...all-nighters are no joke), I wouldn't trade the experience for the world. I've gained knowledge, connections and most importantly, even more employable skills since I am working my craft as I finish my degree. The prestige of the school won't look bad on the resume, either.

sosweety1011 said...

I would be happier seeing any of the Duggar children who have "graduated" from high school taking some sort of accredited training classes, such as to become a mechanic, a plumber, electrician, beautician, cosmetologist, nurse, nurse's aide, dental technician, etc. These are all trades that do not require a college education, yet can provide a very decent income.

The puzzling thing to me about the Duggars is the parents' apparent lack of concern over their children's futures. Why don't they care that they are setting up their children for a lifetime of limited opportunities, most likely of financial hardship, and associated struggles? Why do they want so little for their children? Why do they insist in keeping the older girls at home doing the work Michelle should be doing?

With each passing year, it grows more obvious to many viewers that this "lifestyle" is suitable for the parents, but holds very little promise for the uneducated, untrained younger generation. They are going to be truly struggling once the TLC money stops coming in.

Whit said...

ITA soweety101, but realistically I think Jim Bob and Michelle are not capable of seeing that the life that works so well for them may not meet the future needs of their children.

They can't imagine anything better they could do for their children than they life they have given them... which I disagree with, but that's their perception I think.

After all Mr. and Mrs. Duggar attended public schools and had many opportunities, albeit different ones (Michelle's job at the yohgurt shop)than their kids, even with TLC's paycheck and largesse.

I hate seeing these kids remain so ignorant of the wolrd and so many wonderful things (Art, painting, types of music, dance, freedom of choices one makes daily as adults)

I think America will discover in time, that TSOTDRT prepares the Duggars for little beyond the TLC paychecks and the patriarchal system.

Krissy said...

I think the reason JimBob and Michelle don't encourage more for their children is because they are living in la la land where God always provides if you just convince yourself hard enough.

I agree JimBob is a born salesman and he benefited from early hard work and shrewd investments. I'm not going to discredit him for that. I also don't see anything wrong with him helping Josh get on his feet, as most parents would do for their children.

However the point that most people are trying to make on here, is how far will JimBob's early success stretch out in the longterm for nineteen kids? I know they're assuming the girls will be married off, but shoot, that Maxwell family still has a nearly thirty year old daughter living at home. I could easily see the same thing happening to Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger because they're going to be tied down for many years raising the little ones.


You also have to consider what life would have been like for them if the TLC gravy train hadn't rolled through. When the show first started they were living in a shabby house and wearing hideous homemade dresses until TLC stepped in. That family has benefited greatly from their tv paychecks. Life would not be so rosy if they didn't have that money coming in on a steady basis.

roddma said...

"You also have to consider what life would have been like for them if the TLC gravy train hadn't rolled through. When the show first started they were living in a shabby house and wearing hideous homemade dresses until TLC stepped in."
Amazing how Duggar supporters claim they did well money-wise before the show. I don't call living cramped together in a 900 sq foot house doing well. And if they weren't hurting financially, why were they ling in such a cramped space? While true, the weren't starving but TLC has upgraded their lifestyle and sped up the finishing of the new house.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The Duggars lived in a cramped house as a choice. Instead of having a mortgage they delayed gratification of a more spacious home and lived modestly till they could afford to build a home debt free. TLC did not buy the 20 acres of property they live on nor did they build the house. Yes, they helped finished it with about $25,000 worth of help which is a far cry from the actual cost and worth of this house.

They did ok before TLC and I am sure they will do well after TLC.

Religilicious said...

It is my opinion that the Duggars take everthing, even their failures, and put a pious spin on them.

"Delayed gratification" is self righteous code for "we had more children than our education and resources could adequately afford."

Nothing necessarily holy going on there in that equation.

Now that the TLC bucks are a'blowin' their way, the Duggars now pretend it was their early days of alleged business smarts and fortitude that brought their current lifestyle.

Purpose said...

I like the Duggars. Really I do. But I don't think the kids behavior is all that impressive and too much praise is really warranted at this point. They are under their parents and have not been on their own either long enough or at all to prove this. Of course they are obedient now. They don't have to make their own choices yet. The true measure will be when they are on their own and far away from the parents. Will they still follow the parents beliefs? Josh doesn't count b/c he's still under them. They live in a cocoon which makes it easier to obey. When they sprout wings and then are still obedient to the teachings, I'll be impressed.

butterfly said...

ennvee said
You can go to community college, spend maybe $20/unit (that was the going rate in CA two years ago...I think it's $26/unit now) and get teacher/student interaction and talk to a counselor FOR FREE regarding how to continue on to obtain a college degree.
I've gained knowledge, connections and most importantly, even more employable skills since I am working my craft as I finish my degree. The prestige of the school won't look bad on the resume, either.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Ennvee,
CA is one one the very FEW states to have such a reasonable fee for tuition- I miss it!! I pay for my daughter's tuition in GA at a community college and for her to go 3/4 full time cost $700- and that is without books! (I am in military so that is we aren't at home in beautiful CA), but the price is worth her education- I'll pay any price. And you are correct about the resume. The Duggar children should have the option of being able to go to college before it becomes a do-or-die (or fail) situation and they have to go at night, after they worked all day, pull all-nighters, go on weekends and it becomes a chore a no fun. They should have the option to go while it is a fun experience, a life event they look back on and fondly remember, those "college days." You do make friends, you do have experiences, you do get educated, you do make connections, you can even get a degree (not everyone finishes school), some even leave home and live in dorms- their first time away from home. There's so much to be said for college and it isn't just to get a job- as many posters have stated, you don't NEED a degree to get a high paying job ;) But why miss out on a potentially once in a lifetime experience? The Duggar children should have the choice to attend, if they like.

Jennifer said...

The figure of $1 million to $2.5 million that Jennifer posted is from here:

http://www.manta.com/c/mtmxmqf/champion-motor-cars

That figure is the estimated annual sales for Champion Motorcars, not Josh's take home amount. Of course, he'd take home a lot less than that because most of that would need to be reinvested in new automobiles for the lot, etc. Still, I'm sure he probably does very well for someone his age. "

mantra isn't what I used. but its like mantra Only you have to pay. I was looking a friend up so I thought if I'm going to pay some money to find her. Let me find a site that lets me look up the Duggars as well.
It told me that Jim Bob OWNED the champion motors for 2 years before signing it to Josh. Jim Bob does hold the title to the Land!
"this is a guess" (but I think Josh has to pay Daddy rent for the land.) as you can even look up for free that James Duggar owns the land.
Owning the LAND and CHAMPION MOTORS is a whole different thing.

Jennifer said...

Before I go I found this,
J.T. Duggar established Duggar Realty in 1933, Jim Bob is 4th generation real estate agent, his father "died 09" was third generation and so on down. but the duggar family started buying land in 1890, then went on to establish the Duggar Realty.

Jim Bob's dad did some big sells. Here are a couple Springdale Holiday Inn/Convention Center, McDonalds on 412, Heritage Funeral Home.

Interesting isn't it.. Ok I'm done for today. Just had to put one more comment! I will admit it, I am a Duggars without Pity addict!

Kit said...

You do make friends, you do have experiences, you do get educated, you do make connections

That's not exactly the college experience the Duggars will have. Most of the College Plus program consists of studying for CLEP exams by yourself at home (with occasional "guidance" from the College Plus "tutor"). Then you take as many classes online as you can, before finally completing any classes that require actual classroom/lab/intern time. In fact, the entire College Plus program seems designed to minimize external exposure. So, even if any of the Duggars actually complete the program, it certainly won't be the prototypical college experience. In fact, it's not even close to what kids attending most Christian-based colleges would experience, in terms of learning to live independently, building relationships away from direct parental oversight, discussing ideas that might contradict your beliefs, etc. Which I'm sure is exactly why JimBob so wholeheartedly endorses it (aside from any quid pro quo arrangment he might be getting).

roddma said...

"They did ok before TLC and I am sure they will do well after TLC."
But TLC sure upgraded their lifestyle. Look at all the toys that have popped up like iphones.They are expensive. My guess is they get them because of the cell phone tower.

"Delayed gratification" is self righteous code for "we had more children than our education and resources could adequately afford."

So true. I see nothing Holy about it.

Rainbow68 said...

I think I may have a unique perspective to offer. When I was in my early 20s, I went to a church pastored by one of Bill Gothard's close friends. Gothard even wrote a book about this pastor and his family. I had gone to both the Basic and Advanced Seminars. The Basic Seminar and some helpful information - Scripture memorization, learning to forgive, etc. But it's the Advanced Seminar that's strange - certain music is wrong due to the beat, speaking out against women working vs. being "creative homemakers" etc. - Disclaimer: I have been a stay at home mom for 15years, but don't feel that that decision other moms make is none of my business. Well, there was a large group of kids who were not allowed to attend the youth group - too "worldly". They were kept with their own - the girls had homeschool "fashion shows". Nothing, I repeat, Nothing against homeschool. These people were cloistered off to themselves. When these girls graduated, they were generally shocked that Prince Charming had shown up yet, after all, they were ready to be wives and mothers. They had menial jobs. There's a lot I love about the Duggars, but I don't get not giving their children the ability to devolop their talents or skills through further education.