Monday, March 7, Josie's First Birthday

Happy Birthday Josie! It's been a year of triumphs and tribulations for the 19th Duggar following her premature birth at only 25 weeks gestation. The Duggars return home from Central America to celebrate this happy milestone in Duggar fashion.

30 minutes

59 comments:

Cyn said...

I'm glad Josie is getting big enough to have a birthday party.

Reality TV Junkie said...

I have a feeling a lot of this episoe is them going to be talking about "Josie was born very premature, and was in the hospital for this long, and we are so lucky..." rather than actually celebrating her birthday.

mythoughtis said...

Why does it seem like only certain of the children get birthday parties? Jordan turned one last year, no party for her, two this year, no party for her? No party for any other child born in December? Yes, it is Josie's first birthday, but they have 18 other children, a daughter in law, and a grandchild who are also deserving of attention. I just knew Michelle would bond with Josie and ignore the others.

Anonymous said...

I expect it's more like we only see the birthdays that TLC films or deems interesting to the viewers. I'm sure there are a lot of birthday celebrations that aren't televised.

dec bday girl said...

I also think half of it will be flashbacks as well. I hope they metion the others.

Anonymous said...

mythoughtis said:Why does it seem like only certain of the children get birthday parties?
__________________________________

I am pretty sure we don't see everything the Duggars do. Also,some of the children may not want a birthday party. JMO

Anonymous said...

From a production perspective, using up old tape or previously unseen footage (e.g. Josie in NICU and family scenses from that time) is alot cheaper than shooting new tape. This could end up being a "cut and paste" episode of tape they already shot and offset costs of new production. This is why almost every reality series has behind the scenes episodes, or we see segments used again and again.....maybe they had to increase the family wages so are saving money while giving viewers a little bit of what they want...

ennvee said...

I as well agree that the show will be probably 70% retreads of Josie's early struggles and later "triumphs." I put that in quotes because she hasn't overcome all hurdles; it goes without saying that I hope she doesn't have any complications down the road, but to be honest, I think the Duggars are being a bit cavalier with her because she SEEMS to be healthy (and might even still need some O2 at night; she still had the tape on her cheeks as of December).

I hope Jordyn gets some recognition this year; she was all but forgotten in Josie's perforated hernia disaster last year, which fell exactly on Jordyn's birthday. Yes, she's too young to remember now, but in a few years she might ask where HER first (and possibly second) birthday party pictures are.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket, but the pattern for these VSE's IS to show old footage then maybe two segments (which on this show are about 3-4 minutes long....sooo many commercial breaks) will be the actual party.

Just say no to the pigtails and those gaudy flowers. I was as blond and bald as the baby Duugars, but no one mistook me for a boy. A cute little girly outfit should be plenty to gender-ID her.

I know...in my dreams... :)

Jessica said...

I know this is mean but I am tired of hearing about Josie all the time. Yes, she's a miracle, yes, it's wonderful she's doing so well, yes, it's amazing, but when all the focus is on her and 18 other children are ignored, it's irritating. She's the little princess and all the other kids are the Jan Bradys.

Lisa said...

I don't think they are considering this one of their special episodes though because it is only a half hour long like the regular show. All of their "special episodes" have been an hour long.

theresa said...

I don't know why, but the name "josie brooklyn" just bothers me. I can't imagine a grown woman wanting to be called Josie.

This isn't any reflection of course on Josie personally, just an opinion of her name.

Anonymous said...

Also,some of the children may not want a birthday party
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I have never met a child under the age of 12 yet that didn't want a birthday party, and certainly never a 2 year old who didn't. In every family, large or small, every child's birthday should be a special day. Jordan already had her 1st birthday ignored, and I bet her 2nd will only be celebrated if the older girls make sure it does. Her own mom is too busy being Mother of the Year to put together a special birthday party just for her.

Swissmiss said...

I agree with being tired of the continual emphasis on Josie.

Yes, it's wonderful she has come this far, but how about all the other children? The younger ones especially need some attention from Michelle.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I have heard Michelle say they have often more than one birthday celebration per month, as much as four I believe that one, of all months, is in Dec. Not every celebration is full blown or put on TV. I have faith that over all each child through ones lifetime the celebrations end up being more or less even, as much even as any one family can make them.

Reality TV Junkie said...

I think when it comes to birthday's, the Duggars are stuck in a trap. If it's shown on TV, people complain that they have no personal space. If they don't, people complain they are ignored. They really can't win anymore.

Anonymous said...

"I think when it comes to birthday's, the Duggars are stuck in a trap. If it's shown on TV, people complain that they have no personal space. If they don't, people complain they are ignored. They really can't win anymore."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And that is just one of the prices paid for putting your family and home life on display for a tv viewing audience - you will be critiqued and criticized.

Since Mr. and Mrs. Duggar have continued to sign contracts with TLC, obviously the TLC $ makes this apparent inability to 'win' with viewers well worth it to them.

Anonymous said...

Can we really expect to see a birthday party for each of the Duggars? Counting cousin Amy and her parents and Mary Duggar, that would be 26 birthdays each year! I'm sure there are celebrations that are not filmed.

Anonymous said...

I hope she gets one Jordyn she wont remeber it, but when she akss. She will be hurt that she didn`t have one.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Personally I do not think the Duggars pay much attention to the comments made on the blogs. They realize that people have different views. They are out to please God not so much man so most likely they do not care what others have to say. They do try to answer questions.

Anonymous said...

It's certainly understandable that Michelle has such a strong bond with Josie. All those months in the hospital worrying if she'd even survive and caring for such a fragile baby is bound to lead to strong ties. I'm can't say exactly what kind of relationship she has with her other children, especially the 7 or whatever under 9 years old. In my opinion, TLC intends to picture Jordyn as a lost little waif wandering around aimlessly, because that makes the audience start wondering and speculating about whether or not she ges the nurturing she needs. People tune in to the next episode to see if she's still all alone...and the next..and so on. Truth is, we see in an episode waht TLC wants to see to keep us watching.

Anonymous said...

Don't you think that the lower 7 or so children are going to be distresses in future years to watch this program and find out Michelle felt her husband was "wonderful" and their littlest sister was a "precious bundle"? But the rest are just names on a list? They may have a birthday party for Jordyn or Jennifer or the other one, but in no way are they special.
They should not fret because as jim bob says, "they need to learn the world does not revolve around them."
Didn't they have some party for the middle girl and everyone was really too busy to enjoy the celebration, so they took her on a pre-school train trip and had ice cream to go?

As we know the world revolves around Jim Bob and sometimes Josie. Get use to it kids, you are a number, not a special person in this family.

Poor Jordyn! said...

Once again, TLC can edit out, but not edit in.

If Jordyn were not often wandering around aimlessly, eating at the table alone (particularly pathetic, given the size of her family), and being generally ignored, we couldn't see it on the show.

The fact is, maybe some times people pay attention to her, but plenty of times they don't. If she weren't wandering around alone, there wouldn't be anything to film.

She IS wandering without anyone and eating alone, poor love.

Anonymous said...

Wow, one year old already! I guess it's time for Michelle to pass her off to a buddy so that she and JimBob can get working on #20

Anonymous said...

Josie's already sleeping in a pack and play, so she's being trained for her hand-off.

Anonymous said...

Holy Cow! Anna just called Mrs Duggar "mom". First time I have heard that!!

Reality TV Junkie said...

I noticed Josie didn't have tape on her cheeks anymore. Yay!

I also can't believe Michelle said "Josie is one yearS old." She said "one years". Yikes, that's a pretty obvious one.

Anonymous said...

Priscilla is SO joining that family. Michelle seems eager to add her to the work force. I guess it'll be John David, but isn't he younger than she is?

Anonymous said...

Did anyone else notice that Michelle looked very confused when Jim Bob was telling her what they had done on their trip? I saw the look on her face and thought "Wow. That's the exact look I had on my face in math class this morning!" What was up with that?

Anonymous said...

Josie is truly a blessing and a miracle. To see her one year later,growing and relatively healthy is an amazing testimony to God's will.

Mackynzie is such a beautiful little girl. She seems so active and happy.I hope that she doesn't get lost in the shuffle as Josh and Anna continue to expand their family. Seeing her interaction with the kitty was so cute.

Hearing Anna call Michelle "mom" was cute and funny. I am glad she is comfortable.She has come a long way from the "Mrs.Duggar" days.It's hard to believe she and Josh have been married for two years already.I can't wait to see next week's episode to find out what they're having.

The family seemed happy to be back together after the Central America trip.It was interesting to see how the little ones such as Jennifer and Jordyn were very happy to see their sisters but Josie pulled away from Jana. It kind of tells you who they spend the most time with. Poor Grandma.Episode number two were she makes a laundry comment.I am starting to wonder if she feels that's all she is there for.

MOM IN TEXAS

Sharla said...

As I've had to say before, comments without capital letters and punctuation will not be approved. Comments calling other commenters names or saying that their opinions are stupid, ridiculous, crazy, etc are rude and demeaning and will not be approved.

Allison said...

I saw the look on her face and thought "Wow. That's the exact look I had on my face in math class this morning!" What was up with that?

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I have a feeling they do this for the sake of the audience. They need Jim Bob on camera explaining what they did. They are big into repetative recaps. ::snore::

I liked the episode mostly. It didn't show a ton of new stuff, but it was nice to just see some family time. I love Mackynzie, so any time she's around, I'm OK with it.

I heard Jennifer and Jordyn both speaking, and they seemed to be doing OK for their ages, though I would expect Jordyn to be slightly more talkative, but as people have mentioned she's not around too many people. I don't know if that's how it is all the time, but she seems to spend more time with siblings or "visiting friends" than her own mom. I cannot recall the last time I saw Michelle holding Jordyn.

I also wanted to point out that there was a lot of hugging and affection shown - this has been mentioned a few times that they don't do this, or discourage it, and clearly that's not true.

AmyKB said...

Watching Mackynzie and the cat was cute. I wonder how long it takes Anna to do her hair like that, LoL! Priscilla helped with school, too, while she was there... that seemed a bit strange since there's only like four kids who are home who do school... Where can you buy a television at auction?? What was with Josh displaying his gut, again? The "belt clip malfunction" made me laugh. Seeing Josie with the cat was adorable. Why was there a paper plate of guacamole?? Josh saying that he is "living proof" of Anna's fantastic cooking was kinda overstated, in my opinion. Michelle called Anna her "daughter-in-love," which I don't think we've heard on this show before, but I've heard it in real life, LoL. Jonathan from Indonesia... been there for a few weeks, but this is the first time we've seen him... um, okay? Grandma Duggar starting in on the laundry 15 minutes after the older Duggars got home was kinda sad, honestly. I actually liked the pop-up that noted that Josie, Jordyn, and Mackynzie were all 1 year old for 8 days. Many times the pop-ups are so boring, LoL. Showing Josie uber-soiled was a gross moment, as well as Michelle talking about Josie's poo. Just a few clips of itty-bitty Josie, which was good, since I thought they might've tried to hit that too hard. It was cute to watch the little boy (Jackson?) not be sure whether anyone came over for Josie's party or not.

hannah said...

Wow, they got a TV. I love Anna, but Josh needs to let her talk.

Letting Josie around kitty? Oh My!!

hannah said...

I was annoyed how Josh just sat around when Anna coooked. Well, he did chase after his kid. He didn`t even tell his mom, he loved her back.

Is the footage of Anna cooking at her parents when they went to visit when Mack was little.

I hated how he held the cat.

ennvee said...

Thank you TLC for sparing us most of the gratuitous Josie footage, but points deducted for the poopy leg on the kitchen counter and handling of the poor kitten.

Jessa's birthday wish was rather depressing because her "strong spirit" will be broken soon enough.

Poor Jordyn...forgotten yet again. :(

Anonymous said...

I love Michelle, but I was disturbed to hear her refer to her 11 oldest children as the "reinforcements." That is not good at all. I think she does love them and did seem to genuinely miss them, but referring to them as "reinforcements" sure indicates that she sees them as helpers first and foremost. Maybe it's just me?

Anonymous said...

I know that it was mentioned on the show that Josh and Anna's TV was bought at an auction but do they really need a huge set like that considering they'll probably only use it to watch DVDs now and then? Also thought it was strange how it was mentioned that going over to Josh and Anna's gave Michelle a break. I kind of thought she already had a break with all those helpers around. Did anyone else think that it was kind of unsafe to have Josie around a kitten?

Anonymous said...

Priscilla might be 3 years older than John David. I can't see why that would be a bad thing. She's a pretty, smart, caring, well organized young woman. I hope John David has noticed this. Wouldn't it be nice for Anna to have a sister close by?

Willow #1 said...

Oh yes, I think Priscilla is definitely courting with John David. They were on the same trip to Indonesia and they had the Kellers there for Thanksgiving. Maybe not, but just seems likely to me. I totally love Anna and one of the reasons is that she talks "normal" and doesn't sing-song (you guys know what I mean) like Michelle and many others I have seen. However, Priscilla certainly did on this episode. I was shocked at how pronounced her "happy countenance" was; even worse than Michelle. Is she practicing? She seems like a lovely person and nothing personal, but just surprising as I haven't noticed Anna or her mom or her other sister talk like that.

I think Priscilla and John David would be cute together. He just seems so young and shy still. I think Priscilla is a doll.

Mackynzie is so cute. Lots of personality. I applaud them for letting her have a pet. Michelle's children seemed pet-deprived when they were playing with the little kitty.

Josie appears to be growing and happy. She is really cute, but I am sorry, the pigtails MUST go. She has been wearing them a long time now. Why aren't they changing them out once in awhile for the regular bows, etc.? The pigtails look too old for her. They look strange and awkward. I just don't understand it. As I never saw the pigtails on the other girls, I am wondering if it is because Josie has a misshapen head or something? I don't mean any offense. Just might be one explanation for this. Anyway, Josie is a cutie for sure.

I think the visitor, Jonathan, was also helping with the kids. Michelle sort of alluded to that near the end of the show. Yes.. um, Michelle was "alone at home with the 7". I admit 2 weeks was probably a long time to have no help at all, but really, she had plenty.

Allison said...

Jonathan from Indonesia... been there for a few weeks, but this is the first time we've seen him... um, okay?


---

They really aren't showing these episodes in any sort of order. Most of the episodes from this season were October/early November, then they skipped to after Thanksgiving. I think I heard that Jonathan had just arrived for the holidays. I think he had been in the States for a few weeks, but not with the Duggars, and then he came to see them for Christmas. This is about right since this is when the infamous gun photo came out, not earlier. I think he arrived when the Duggars were gone, so he probably was only there a few days, hence why we haven't seen him before.

I would also like to point out that Jonathan is not an "exchange student" but someone they met on the mission's trip and who is just visiting. The TMZ article made it sound like they gave it to some student, but this guy sounds older than all of the Duggar kids. Probably late 20s...

Anonymous said...

I'm very glad that Josie survived her premature birth and gets to have a first birthday. Her health is proof of God's love and compassion.

I liked this show and found it very sweet. It does bother me, though, that Jordyn's birthday wasn't celebrated at the same time. I looked on Wikipedia, and it says that Josie's birthday is Dec. 10 and Jordyn's birthday is Dec. 18, just 8 days apart. I think it would have been a nice gesture to have a party for both girls, considering how close in age they are and also that Jordyn apparently didn't have a party.

Jordyn is very cute and it seems like she gets a little lost in the shuffle sometimes.

When the family returned from their trip, I noticed that Jennifer headed straight to Jill. She seems much closer to Jill than her mother, though I see JimBob holding Jennifer often.

I, too, was disturbed by Michele referring to her older children as "reinforcements". It affirms what others on this board have written - that Michele relies on them too much. Michele is in her 40s, has had three surgeries in two years, and no doubt tires much more easily these days. She could also be in perimenopause. Since she can't take care of her seven youngest without help, she should decide to quit having babies, and mother the large family she has been so blessed with.

Anonymous said...

I didn't mind this episode too much. There were a few things in it that bothered me but it is mostly the same things, like the way Michelle has to baby talk all the time.

I liked watching Josh and Anna at home but I don't know if I would have let that much free range with the kitten. I was afraid that kitten would jump up and attack Mackynzie's face, cat scratches are awful. I think they should have put the kitten up when all the kids were over there.

I thought I read somewhere that Gothard says not to have a television for the first two years of marriage. I guess as soon as that was over they got their tv and I am glad they did. I kind of wonder if the only thing that will be played is educational videos though. I also noticed that Mackynzie was not wearing a dress. That was not a dress with leggings but an actual leggins set. Maybe they won't make her wear dresses all of the time.

FlimsyPaperPlate said...

Someone needs to buy Josh and Anna a cutting board. Maybe one of the "reinforcements"... oops, I mean older children... can give them one for their anniversary.

Lisa said...

"Josie appears to be growing and happy. She is really cute, but I am sorry, the pigtails MUST go. She has been wearing them a long time now. Why aren't they changing them out once in awhile for the regular bows, etc.? The pigtails look too old for her. They look strange and awkward. I just don't understand it. As I never saw the pigtails on the other girls, I am wondering if it is because Josie has a misshapen head or something?"

I actually recently was watching previous episodes of the show and the pigtails showed up on Jordyn when she was younger. I'm thinking that it's something the family discovered between Jennifer and Jordyn that they like to use until the little girl grows enough hair of her own since all the Duggar babies seem to be born with limited or no hair, even the ones who aren't premature.

"It does bother me, though, that Jordyn's birthday wasn't celebrated at the same time. I looked on Wikipedia, and it says that Josie's birthday is Dec. 10 and Jordyn's birthday is Dec. 18, just 8 days apart. I think it would have been a nice gesture to have a party for both girls, considering how close in age they are and also that Jordyn apparently didn't have a party."

I actually wasn't under the impression that Jordyn didn't get a party. When Jessa and Jinger were being interviewed they said that they typically have a birthday every 2-4 weeks. Well obviously they come closer together in December but the girls said that they are always throwing birthday parties. I think that everyone in the family gets some type of celebration for their birthday, it just depends on the year and what else the family has going on. And anyways, people on the boards have said that they are tired of seeing birthday parties. I know people want to know that Jordyn had a party but I really can't see her birthday being completely ignored.

Anonymous said...

Did we really need to see and hear all about the baby's poo running down her legs? And seeing her poopy bottom set on the counter?

Hopefully the reinforcements will make a party for Jordyn. Mom and Dad can go out for the day if they don't want to participate in it. You know, we can't let Jordyn think the world revolves around her.

Anonymous said...

I don't see how they say there is a party every 2-4 weeks the way those kids dive on the cakes like they've never seen one before. (If they see them once or twice a month, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.)

Allison said...

I don't see how they say there is a party every 2-4 weeks the way those kids dive on the cakes like they've never seen one before. (If they see them once or twice a month, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.)

--

Maybe they don't do cake every time. That would certainly get expensive. I don't recall seeing a cake at Jessa's 18th or Jill's 19th birthday, and it seemed like Joy's treat was ice cream (though maybe they had cake later) so perhaps they only have cake for the little kids. If so, that would only be every few months. Just a theory.

Cyn said...

I don't see how they say there is a party every 2-4 weeks the way those kids dive on the cakes like they've never seen one before
*******************
It's CAKE... they are KIDS... kids will dive on cake at dinner even if they had it for breakfast...

At least mine do and they live on junk food and sweets... doesn't slow them down wanting more from the grandparents, Aunts and Uncles.

***********************
Agreed the poo was nasty, and I hope they cleaned that counter; that may have just been where she sat her to get a better grip before walking her up the stairs to change her. Then started replying to what every the camera man was asking her with the "her party she can poo if she wants to" (that did crack me up).

Not a fan anymore said...

The promo's for next week lead us to believe that the sex of Josh and Anna's bay will be revealed involving a helicopter or plane. You can see the Duggars looking up into the sky and hearing aviation sounds and a voice over saying about finding out what sex the baby is. Who does something like that? For a show that is suppose to be reality TV it seems awfully scripted. It sickens me to think that money and all the perks that a TLC show comes with is influencing the Duggars' life. So so so sad.

Anonymous said...

Maybe they don't do cake every time. That would certainly get expensive.
**********************************
I don't know; they should be able to find a box of cake mix at Aldi for roughly a dollar; a can of frosting for another dollar. Even adding in Josh, Anna, McKynzie, and Grandma, that is only $50 in a whole year on cakes. Certainly they can spring for that.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of cake, remember the ice cream cake that the older girls made for Michelle's birthday on one of the early specials? That really is delicious. I make it for a Christmas dessert and everyone loved it. Let's don't even think of the calories and fat grams, but it is great for a special occasion.

Anonymous said...

>The promo's for next week lead us to believe that the sex of Josh and Anna's bay will be revealed involving a helicopter or plane. You can see the Duggars looking up into the sky and hearing aviation sounds and a voice over saying about finding out what sex the baby is. Who does something like that? For a show that is suppose to be reality TV it seems awfully scripted. It sickens me to think that money and all the perks that a TLC show comes with is influencing the Duggars' life. So so so sad.

-----------------------------------

I suspect that was TLC's idea just to make the announcement of the sex of the baby more exciting.I was hoping they would just cut into the cake again.
That said,I hope to see some blue this time..I hope it's a boy. :)

ennvee said...

Josie aside, it really looks like the Duggars were aiming for a Christmas baby what with all the birthdays between Dec. 10th and early January (JD and Jana). We have Josie, Jordyn, Jinger (21st, IIRC), Jed and Jer around the 28th (sorry it's late and I don't feel like looking up the exact date), then Jana/JD in early January.

That's a lot of cake. I imagine Jinger and the older twins now eschew cake, but Jed/Jer just turned 12 and they'd definitely be into a party with cake. Jordyn's too young to remember, but it still bugs me that there will not be any pictures from her first two birthdays.

Remember, her first birthday was marred by Josie's bowel perforation. I'm not sure whether they had relocated yet, but they were certainly in the process of packing up, knowing that this would be a long ordeal; Josie's scare likely made them stop whatever they were doing, wherever they were doing it, and pray. A reasonable assumption, I think.

I don't think Jinger sacrificing a party last year would have been a great sacrifice, but the younger twins may have had a little resentment; 11 is a tough age, no matter how wholesome one's family is.

I hope Josie and Jordyn can enjoy some joint parties in a few years when they can be treasured, heartfelt memories for both, and not just pictures, or lack thereof, for memories.

Anonymous said...

I love Anna. She seems more real to me. She doesn't speak in a baby voice either. Is it just me or is she getting prettier? I enjoyed watching her cook, reminds me of my young housewife days :). Yes, I enjoyed being a housewife and cooking for my family.

As for Michelle being in peri, it's possible. I'm 42 and I started around 39 years old. I have a 7 year old, and I tell you right now, with the hot flashes, mood swings, and insomnia, there is no way I could handle more than one little one right now.

Anonymous said...

The boy twins born in Dec. had what you call a half birthday. Alot of Winter born kids do this, as you can not have swim parties and things like that in the freezing winter.
So dont forget they celebrated their bday!
Also just because they don't mention or its not on the show doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Or just because it was celebrated on that day, they might have ask can I do this for my bday early!

Sharla said...

I have turned off comments for awhile.

This blog is not a place to discuss the blog. If you want to come here just to tear apart what other people say, this is the wrong place for you. If you can not comprehend the numerous warnings about typing in a reasonable approximation of correct English, this is not the place for you.

Let's take an Ash Wednesday break and meditate on something besides treating our neighbors (other readers) harshly. Thank you.

umsami said...

I ran across this article today on the BBC on 23 week old babies--and I couldn't help but think of Josie. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12625253

Josie was born at 24/25 weeks, I think. One thing that really hit home in the article is that in Holland, they don't even try to resucitate babies born at 23 weeks. They let them die a "dignified" death. Also, they point out that the "limit" for abortions is usually 24 weeks.

Anyways...just makes me think that the Duggars are extremely blessed that Josie seems to be doing so well. I really hope that this gives them pause regarding future children--especially as Michelle's risk of preeclampsia is so much greater now. I would think that would "allow" birth control of some sort. Maybe Michelle can become the new spokeswoman for Mirena? ;)

msrylee said...

I too am glad that Josie is healthy and thriving, as we've been told. IMO she is a miracle and her life should be celebrated.

I only hope that all the blessings' birthdays are celebrated as well, even if they are not part of an episode. Life is precious, and not to be taken for granted.

Rebecca said...

I don't understand all the "poor Jordyn" comments. As far as I can tell, the Duggars do not let their entire lives be broadcast and they seem pretty limited in what they will broadcast. Maybe Jordyn DID have a party and it just wasn't aired. Really, do the viewers want to see 19 birthday parties a year (20, soon 21 with Josh and Anna's family)? Probably not.