Tuesday, August 2, Duggars, Dates, & Dan 9:30 PM

Good Morning America's Dan Harris visits the Duggars for a day and has the quintessential Duggar experience. And the day gets busier for the Duggars when the older girls host a dating seminar. Meanwhile, Michelle is concerned when Josie becomes sick.

Season finale
30 minutes

60 comments:

Hayley said...

A "dating seminar" (I assume this really means "Courting with one's parents and/or I Kissed Dating Goodbye) lead by impressionable young people who do not have vast relationship experience outside of what they have been told? Sign me up!

hart&sole said...

Since no episodes are listed after these two and it's unusual to have two new programs in the same time slot, may we assume this is the end of the season for the Duggars?

pumpkin said...

Somehow I doubt it will be "Jana signed up for E-Harmony and has been on 15 dates so far"....

A "dating seminar"? Well, I might tune in to watch them explain why they call it "dating" when clearly we know they don't date at all.

ennvee said...

I recall someone saying a special on Pippa Middleton is on the schedule in the Duggars' slot on 8/9, so yeah, I think this is it for this "season."

I just saw some pictures of the girls with Doug Phillips, the head of Vision Forum (think "Tea with Michelle"). This is probably where they spoke, since VF's position on dating, or not dating (why call it a dating seminar?) is the same as Gothard/IBLP.

Anyone who has seen Duggar Dating Rules, the handsex episodes, or read the last book should be able to recite their script, verbatim. Snore.

Reality TV Junkie said...

Okay, I can predict this "dating seminar": The girls with travel far to talk about why dating is wrong or immoral, and that they have all decided to court instead, and that they all decided to wear purity rings, and Michelle will comment on how encouraging they are. Ta da!

I just don't understand how they claim they live there life on how they choose to. (The older girls). Every one of them says that they chose, on their own, that is the life they want to live. If they all truly chose the path they want to take, I think their answers would be slightly (or more) different. I believe they live this way not because Michelle and Jim Bob forced them to, but because it's all they know. I feel they are just too inexperinced and unaware to choose something else. This goes for clothing, dating, living arrangements, etc. I think they all need their horizon to be broadened.

msrylee said...

It boggles my mind as to how the older Duggar blessings can host a dating seminar when they don't "date".

I agree that their worlds are very tightly controlled and confined. If this is an unfair observation, TLC please correct it.

positiveparent said...

maybe they are 'hosting' meaning it is at their house, or their church, etc. Maybe they are getting ready to start courting and need the rules explained to them for the 100th time.

sandi said...

WHY don't they just call it a courting seminar? dating obviously has nothing to do with it,(other than putting it down) and the name would be much more appropriate.JMO.

Rebecca said...

ennvee: "handsex episodes"??

Beedageeda said...

Rebecca,
Check out the episodes leading up to Josh and Anna's wedding. When they finally got to spend time together, rather than kissing, they decided, with the advice of their parents, that they could allow themselves to hold hands. So, they were attached at the hand constantly, so much so that it became almost obscene. Hence, "handsex."

ennvee said...

They did host a group at their house; I saw some pictures on Sarah Mally's blog - she's the author of the "Prince Charming" book. She heads a ministry advocating purity for young women. The group at the Duggars was an auxillary event attached to the main conference held in Rogers back in April.

The Duggars were pictured in both places, so yeah, they could be using the word "host" in a disingenuous fashion, especially given the shot at the Duggar place included Jim Bob, Josh and Anna (ie. TLC cameras were rolling). Looking at other pictures on the Mally blog, it appears that there are already young women who travel together and "lead" both the big group seminar as well as the smaller groups. The more I think about this, I believe the poster who suggested that by "leading" they meant holding the group in their home is correct.

I wonder if they'll introduce Sarah Mally and her accomplishments since Jill has already referenced the book on the show. I think the woman is in her early 30's now, still waiting for her Prince.

envee said...

Here's the post to the Bright Lights blog. In case you're wondering, the guy in the header is Sarah Mally's adopted brother, who helps with the A/V for their seminars.

http://tomorrowsforefathers.com/gracenotes/?p=7559

Scroll down to see Jessa and Jinger at the event itself and further to see the smaller group the Duggars hosted. Timing of this explains why the TLC crew was in the area when the tornadoes hit; they even have some pics of the girls in hallways as they threatened.

(sorry, wasn't signed up with the regular google account)

Isis said...

Out of curiousity, does anyone know if the older Duggar girls have ever courted? I'm GUESSING no, since the general attitude among Christian conservatives who live similarly to the Duggars seems to be that once you start courting one person you are obligated to marry them unless some kind of reputation-destroying scandal comes to the surface (along the lines of crime, infidelity, or going public with a drastic change in belief) but I have no evidence to back that up, and I'm curious to see if anyone who frequents this blog knows more than me.

Seriously? said...

IMO, the whole Duggar concept of 'courting' is absolutely laughable.

Allison2357 said...

Wow, obligated to marry those they court? If this is true what happens when they get to know someone and then come to believe it won't work out? I thought they had mentioned courting as a way to get to know each other. Why bother getting to know them if you are already signing the marriage license?

Food for thought: is it possible that this Dan Harris news anchorman is somehow (even distantly) related to Joshua Harris, author of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? Seems like a strange coincidence for him to arrive in the same episode as this dating seminar. Either way, an episode with dating in the title is sure to have some talk about courting.

positiveparent said...

Courtship - spending time together with the stated goal of deciding if you want to marry or not.

Note: Anna's Dad said that Anna was sure about Josh, but they didn't know Josh's feelings until the phone call where he asked Dad if he could ask Anna to marry him. They were already courting, so sounds like marriage was not a sure thing until that night.

I think it is so more serius than just dating though, go look at the courtship pictures on the Bates website.

Isis said...

I'm sorry if I confused anyone with my previous post - I was speaking figuratively, not literally. Although there is hard-and-fast rule that a courting couple HAS to get married, all of the couples I've heard of who have courted have married the first person that they courted . . . there also seems to be a sort of unspoken expectation among the families involved that children will marry the first person that they court.

It's still not the same thing though, and I apologize if I confused anyone. I'd still like to know if anyone knows whether the older Duggar girls have courted or not.

rcadra2 said...

My head was spinning after watching this episode. There were so many things going on in the Duggar house - a visit from Dan, a sick baby needing tubes, a few dozen people showing up for the dating seminar, with a meal to boot, cameramen running around all day. And I'm thinking this was all in one day. How do they function with so many things going on? If I was Michelle, I'd want to get on that big bus and head for the hills.

I often wonder if they have a behind-the-scenes cleaning and cooking crew. Who hauled all that food home to feed the dating seminar people? Who cooked it? Who cleaned the house beforehand? Doesn't it take days to get ready for a crowd like that? And wasn't Joy Ana using the kitchen earlier to make the tater tot casserole with Dan?

Plus there are the little ones to take care of to boot. If Josie had an earache, I'm guessing Michelle (or a sister mom) was up all night with her.

How do they do it all? They always look so relaxed and happy.

positiveparent said...

I felt so sorry for the 4 older girls in tonight's episode. It is obvious they do not have a clue about male-female relationships. Really, the man has to go to Jim Bob before he even flirts with the woman? God will bring the man to her without her even expressing any interest in a man?
And, just even letting the man express his interest to you instead of Dad will be too forward and will turn the man off?

There is no way any of them have ben courting in any way, shape, or form.

Their wedding nights are going to be such an eye-opener.... they will wonder what happened. Provided, they ever get a marriage offer. I know of no man that would put up with such nonsense.

mom in texas said...

I was hoping for some great announcement about at least Jana or John David being on their way to having a life outside of the homestead however I finished watching this episode with some what of a sadness and confusion. Part of me really wants to believe that the Duggar girls have their own ideas of what "courting" or "marriage" or a "relationship" is but I honestly don't think they do. I know we all get some of our beliefs from our parents but most of us are given the opportunity to go out an experience the bitter and the sweet in regards to dating. Although the Duggars claim the children have the free will to choose whether or not they date in the traditional sense, I don't think they do. The four older girls seemed so robotic in their answers. Jill even seemed to quote Sarah Mally directly. I would find it hard to follow the beliefs and advice of a woman who,in her early 30's still hasn't found her own "prince charming". Jana seemed uncomfortable and even irritated at the comical way Jessa and Jinger approached the topic. Jill and Jana seem much more conservative about it all. In my opinion, this belief system on courting makes dating around seem like a nightmare when it is not all bad. How would many of the girls know this, if they have never done it? There is nothing wrong with a little heartbreak, it's part of growing up. Well at least it is for some of us. There is nothing wrong with dating responsibly. I just feel like the whole courtship idea is taught from a very one sided point of view. I also thought this episode would gives viewers a better idea of what the Duggars view as courtship. A lot of things said was more of the same that we have already heard.

Dar said...

Poor little Josie. No wonder she has infections. She is exposed to so many people. Can this family not exist without bringing more and more children around them? This little girl has had to fight for her very existence. All the traveling must be very stressful for her. She should has some peace and quiet around her. I know it has been mentioned numerous times, but it must be so annoying having anything extra on her head , especially when she is not feeling well. I expect these pigtails are for the cameras.

I thought the "dating" seminar for the girls was almost laughable. Jim Bob front and center, asking all the questions. Of course he is an authority on dating. He can't get over the fact that Michelle dated other people before she met him. He refers to that period and "Michelle's baggage".It would be difficult for any of the "blessings" to mature beyond a teenage level with that example. Those lovely girls, with so much to offer, totally controlled by their parents. Any individuality stifled. It is almost criminal.

hart&sole said...

This was Kelly Bates answer when I asked her if there were instances when a courtship didn't lead to marriage.

Dear Kay,
Unfortunately, we’ve heard of it happening many times. In the cases we have heard about, the couple either rushed into a relationship without really knowing each other and without having like beliefs and goals, or one of them was dishonest and presented themselves as being something they were not. Both of these scenarios could be avoided by getting to know each other before moving into a courtship relationship. However, if there has been a mistaken view of one another, it would be better to discover that early on before entering marriage. Asking parents, pastors, and other older married couple’s counsel could be a protection to avoid that heartache, since married couples often recognize red flags from their own wisdom and experiences. Love, Kelly

Delta88 said...

Neither Jim Bob nor Michelle will let those older girls go any time in the near (or probably far) future. Even Michelle said, "It's so hard letting a son go, I can't imagine letting a daughter go" or something like that. To be 21 (Jana and JD's age) and never talked with a person of the opposite sex alone, gone on a date, even...held hands or kissed? It's just plain weird.

And the sad part is that Jim Bob and Michelle had done all those things by age 21. They just won't let their kids do the same things that they got to experience on their own.

I wonder...does Jim Bob really want his girls to be SAHD for the rest of their lives, caring for the siblings? Is this what you bring children into the world for? To be enslaved to you forever?

In my experience, one births and raises children to release them to live their own, independent lives. Yes, sometimes those lives are not exactly the same as their parents, and sometimes kids make poor decisions. But that's what growing up is all about. Learning, growing, making one's own choices in life! Isn't allowing independent thoughts and experiences what we should ALL want for our children?

Not in ATI/Gothard Parenting School of Arrested Development!

What a sad, pathetic excuse for parenting those Duggar parents provide!

sandi said...

Didn't Josh have a failed courtship,or was that just another rumor? I thought it was with a Holt girl.
I agree,the Duggar girls have no real concept of what dating is all about,other than what they've been told,and it appears to be all bad.They don't understand that dating is just that-a date.It can be meeting for coffee or just a movie.Nothing else needs to be involved,other than getting to know the other person without pressure.
Courting is quite the opposite,with many expectations right off the bat.I don't see why the Duggars and families like them can't teach their children to date responsibly.If they think they've raised them so correctly,then there should be no fear of it.They could still do old-fashioned dating,where the parents meet the date and approve of their going out with him/her.JMO.

starsmom29 said...

Why are the Duggar seasons so short. I wish they were on for an hour at least not a half hour and then repeat. The Duggars are about the only show I find worth watching on TLC. Most of their other programming is just weird or disgusting. After last night can we assume that Jana is engaged? She seems so sweet and I think, one of the prettiest. Hope she finds her "prince charming" real soon.

Reality TV Junkie said...

When Meredith asked: "Who wants to have a small family?", no one raised their hand. No one. I was expecting at least a younger one or 2 to say yes, but I was actually shocked.

mom in texas said...

sandi said:..If they think they've raised them so correctly,then there should be no fear of it.
___________________________________

Excellent point. I also feel the same way. If the Duggars and others who share the same values feel that they have trained up their children so well why is there a need for constant surveillance and approval before going into a relationship? One thing I didn't mention previously is the lack of privacy the courtship has. According Kelly Bates the couple has monitored phone calls,text, emails, chats, and face to face conversation. This ridiculous. If two consenting adults (over 18) decide they have feelings for one another they should have some level of intimacy that is not a family affair. Just because two people of the opposite gender are alone doesn't mean they will go off and do something horrible like hug full frontal! And if they do, guess what, the worlds won't collide and cause a catastrophe. I have an issue with the "fear factor" that is built in to the children's brains. Especially when it is a stark contrast from post marriage. Pre marriage you can barely look your mate in the eye, post marriage you go around necking in public like two teenagers. I can imagine the confusion.

UGH!!!!! said...

I’ve always commented with “don’t like it but it’s their business” approach. Something really rubbed me the wrong way with this one. It really bothered me last night to see adult women in the clenches of a sheltered life, looking up to a suspiciously skinny lady telling them that 1) Their “own” life only starts once they’ve bid their time and met prince charming, and 2) That all they can do to “find” said prince charming is know how to “no repel him”. But first…:


DAN HARRIS: If not for the $, then why let him “profile” instead of pointing him to the specials, series, and books???

SARAH MALLY: Duggar girls, learn something about your husband being the be all and end all in your life: This woman embodies what she preaches against. She’s desperate for a man, defends (via books) the choices she secretly suspects have turned them off, tries too hard to look youthful and looks plagued by an eating disorder surely fueled by trying hard to “get a man to come to her” without making the moves herself.

JIMBOB: They said something about a boy “winning over their daughter’s heart” – more like winning JimBob’s permission since as winking at a Duggar girl prior to talking to him “eliminates” an interested boy. Hey JimBob, here’s the irony: Prohibiting interaction between your girls and potential suitors means that the ONLY thing a suitor can POSSIBLY interested in when approaching you is her LOOKS! Isn’t this “courting” meant to ward off that kind of boy?

DATING RHETORIC: Really tired of the Duggars so cheerfully judging everyone else. Dating can mean anything, including “courting”. Lots of people date those “vouched” for by family and friends, and lots also clearly state serious intentions from the start. You have SPEAK UP. Dating does not = sleeping around or setting for the wrong person, it often means looking for that “PRINCE”. Plenty of women look for a smart, kind, reliable, honest man and seek Daddy’s approval of him! And how about making the difference between “coming onto a guy” and “expressing your interest”??? Nope – be passive quiet. Just one more cliché they preach as “godly” when it’s just a variation of common sayings. “God sends you the right one” = “Meant to be”. “God didn’t think it was for the best” = “More fish in the sea”. “Keep pure” = “No one buys the cow if they get the milk for free” .Those girls were literally just spitting out what they’d been taught, which was a k-6 version of reality, and are too isolated/sheltered to even understand what they’re being “protected” against.


ARE THEY TRYING TO MAKE THIS LOOK LIKE A COMPOUND?!: Like I said, I used to think “I’d never raise my kids that way but no one is starving or abused and it’s their business”. Starting to think they’re treading dangerously close to compound-like status. It’s one thing for “limited” parents to raise “limited” kids, but Michelle and JimBob are knowledgeable while holding their kids back. They expect their kids to carbon-copy THEIR lifestyle while conveniently forgetting that it came from all they won’t allow for their kids (education, jobs/trades, right to choose, dating, independence, contraception, mortgages/debt, waiting and saving up, etc).

I’d like to know if the girls see any of the $ they personally make from that show (has to be in their name once age 18, right?) and/or if they’re pressured to relinquish it immediately to “the family”. Do these girls even have their Social Security card? If they ever decided to go “against” the family ways, would they be helped and supported even if cut loose? Would they have any money to their name? Would they have proper documentation to move forward? If not, seems like a very legal way to keep your kids fearful, dependent, and at your service, with 0 means of choosing differently.

sandi said...

The hypocrisy lies in the fact that Jim Bob and Michelle dated,yet nothing bad came out of it.I don't buy the whole 'baggage' and broken hearts thing..this is about keeping oontrol over a young person.

sandi said...

Re: One thing I didn't mention previously is the lack of privacy the courtship has. According Kelly Bates the couple has monitored phone calls,text, emails, chats, and face to face conversation. This ridiculous. If two consenting adults (over 18) decide they have feelings for one another they should have some level of intimacy that is not a family affair.
----------------------------------- wow,that's just plain nosey,imo,not to mention it is treating the young adults like they're little children and incapable of being trusted.
One thing I've noticed in these kinds of families is the lack of healthy boundaries.Everthing seems to be everyone else's business.I bet Kelly and Gil and Jim Bob and Michelle would not have cared for the same intrusions into their lives that their own children are getting.Michelle mentioned in her first book how glad she was that they were finally on their own and living their own lives-the life they wanted.Even when their families didn't like their choices. But their own kids can't do the same.

Isis said...

I just would like to say, whenever I think about the whole "waiting for Prince Charming" book and movement, I can't help but make the comparison to the actual fairy tales where the princesses meet their "Prince Charming," since in those, the princess always has to be rescued from some sort of abusive situation . . . yet when the people who follow the "Prince Charming" movement talk about it, they claim to be waiting willingly. Turning the "father's castle" these daughters are waiting in willingly into some tyrannical lord who keeps his daughters locked away from the world is such a natural step it almost happens on its own, at least in the literary sense. I've always found it both funny and sad, but seeing it happen on camera makes it even more so.

msrylee said...

Why would it seem that Jana is engaged? I must have slept through that part. Leave it to me to miss something so important.

ennvee said...

Jana is not engaged. She just recently returned from another round of the Journey to the Heart indoctrination camp. If anyone is getting engaged this year it's John David.

I was really surprised they let Sarah Mally go on as she did; it really exposed the extremes the Duggars and their ilk go to to scare their children into thinking that normal human behavior, experienced by themselves without incident, are wrong and worse, sinful.

Jinger's remarks were especially sad, as were Jill's, who essentially parroted Mally (did I call that or what).

Those girls are going nowhere until the show is canceled and Jana is stuck until Josie is about 6 and can do her own laundry. What an awful way to live, but I guess as they say, ignorance is bliss.

Sharla said...

This episode 1.288 million viewers.

Colleen said...

I never noticed the 'hand***' until ennvee metioned it. It was a little odd. It's nice to hold someone's hand, but there display was a little excessive.

ncgirl said...

"I’d like to know if the girls see any of the $ they personally make from that show"

I've always wondered about that. Anybody over 18 should be getting their own money. Anybody under 18 should have a trust the parents can't touch. Kate Gosselin has been rightfully questioned about what her children get. The Duggars should be questioned too.

imaamy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Seriously? said...

"Didn't Josh have a failed courtship,or was that just another rumor? I thought it was with a Holt girl."

**********************************

IF this is true, that Joshie had a 'failed' courtship, somewhere out there is one lucky young woman who dodged a bullet that time and escaped imprisonment in Duggarville.

Digger said...

Jackson pointing out John blushing was a typical little brother moment. Poor John. LOL

James saying he would use his karate skills on his sister's boyfriend was cute. Jed saying that if a boy doesn't respect his mom and dad that he probably won't respect his wife was wise.

The Duggar kids have a great childhood at home. I love their wild and crazy play outside and the book says the kids have a fort in the woods. Kids need more of that kind of play these days. I wish I had all that land to play on as a kid.

Anonymous said...

Did anyone notice when the girls were being interviewed about dating, the question was asked if any of the Duggar girls had anything going on in the relationship department, they all said no, but looked at Jana, and then right before the camera panned away, Jana mouthed "there was, but..", and shrugged her hands. It is hard to catch and the scene changes quickly, but she says it. So who was she in a failed relationship with?

ennvee said...

I suspect part of the reason Jana was sent away was to "get over" someone she liked. Could have easily been Zack Bates, since he was pre-courting Sarah Reith for months until the courtship was announced. Those circles are small and I'm sure that if Jana had her eye on ANYONE and found out he'd picked someone else, it would be devastating.

AND if she was indeed interested in any guy and he looked elsewhere, didn't she invest a piece of her heart in him? And if a courtship ends without a marriage, but the couple has spent many months getting to know each other (albeit chaperoned), with an expectation of marriage, haven't THEY given away pieces of their hearts? Amy confirmed that Josh had a failed courtship when he was younger, but that was probably more of an arrangement between parents than any decision of his (IIRC, he was only 16). Amy never confirmed who the girl was, but it's enough that he had a failed courtship. Shouldn't Anna feel a little ripped off? ESPECIALLY given how Josh pontificated about the "pieces of your heart" before he got married?

Their courtship rules are not biblical; they're made from Gothard and his ilk. If they were from God, every couple would adhere to the same rules (I won't even get into the legalism), but couples decide whether or not to hold hands, or sidehug before the wedding.

The inconsistency of the rules only hurt girls who are made to think that even looking a guy in the eye can defraud him. Holding girls at home unmarried and full of guilt, yet having to put on the shiny, happy faces for the public can't be easy and poor Jana is proof that there are cracks in the system.

NJMom said...

After watching this episode, I think that most of the Duggar girls won't be allowed to marry- not too many guys will meet Jim Bob's standards. What's even sadder is thinking about what will happen to them after their parents are gone- will the adult children continue to live together in that big house?

Steve said...

Do people realize that two of the couples that Josh Harris mentions in his "Boy Meets Girl" book are either divorced or divorced has been filed? It just shows how "imperfect" this alternate is.

sandi said...

I would be much more encouraged by a large family that could tell us how they save up for college for their children.But we will never heear that from a quiverfull family.
That said,I can say for myself (and probably my children also)that I would be much more heartbroken over a failed courtship than a failed date.Courting comes with so many more expectations.I agree that it is giving away pieces of your heart,much more than a simple date can.
It's such an 18th century word..I would rather see these families teach their children to live in the real world,the one that exists now.

sandi said...

Re: After watching this episode, I think that most of the Duggar girls won't be allowed to marry- not too many guys will meet Jim Bob's standards.
----------------------------------

I think he would allow it if it were say,a Bates boy.I think he would find that hard to turn down,since they are good friends with the Bates,not just that it would be good fodder for the show.


Re: What's even sadder is thinking about what will happen to them after their parents are gone- will the adult children continue to live together in that big house?

----------------------------------

I think they might live more of their own lives if that happens,not that I wish anything bad on Jim Bob or Michelle.

Dar said...

I don't wish anything bad for Michelle or Jim Bob. I do think, however, that Michelle is playing with fire. She has said that she does nothing to prevent a pregnancy. A woman her age, with all those former pregnancies is at risk. Her blood pressure was so high the last time, Josie had to be delivered.

If anything happens to her, I firmly believe some or all of those young girls will be forced to completely take over the rearing of their younger siblings.

I also find it so unreasonable that anyone who endeavors to court the girls has to be approved by Jim Bob. So much control, so much power. I wonder where all the feminists are these days. It is almost like the Victorian period in that house. The girls are under the authority of papa until he passes the authority over to their spouse. To hold this family up as an example for anyone to emulate is, in my opinion, "defrauding" to the nth degree!

ennvee said...

Dar, that's why I strongly suspect that Jana either had a suitor in mind who went elsewhere, or had a guy in mind whom Jim Bob turned down. I think either scenario would elicit those looks by her sisters.

Then again, maybe she's the one who "looked at a boy straight in the eye" and got caught, therefore defrauding the guy, because as we all know from what the Duggars have said and written, boys and men have NO self-control and it's all on the female not to do anything to tempt the male.

There is so much pressure on the young women to be perfect angels for God that I'm surprised that there aren't more incidents of eating disorders, cutting or other destructive behaviors. It happens; the stories out there, but you'll never hear a Duggar talk about the negative side of a young woman's life. To hear them talk, it's all rainbows and unicorns and courting never fails.

FWIW, my best friend had a baby when she was 16. She got her PhD, works as a college professor, and recently became a grandmother (her son waited until he was almost 30).

The Duggars and their ilk remind me of the gym teacher in Mean Girls; they haven't a clue how the real world works anymore because they choose not to live in it unless they're selling a book, or there's a pregnancy to be announced.

Use the name/url choice please said...

I really like the Duggars, but there's something I don't understand about the courtship system. If, as Kelly Bates explained, courtships don't always result in marriage, how is that any different/better than dating in terms of the heartbreak or "baggage"? If you think about it, not only is someone who is part of a failed courtship having to deal with ending a relationship, but they're having to go through this in front of their whole family, and it's more than just a relationship, it's an expected marriage. Wouldn't that be even more traumatizing than going into a dating relationship with an understanding that either party may end it at any time and that it's not necessarily serious? I'm not talking about a casual sexual relationship or anything like that, but it seems that a person who doesn't expect marriage right from the beginning wouldn't be as devastated by a breakup as someone who does. With courting, there may not be much going on physically, but the feelings must be there. How can two people be planning a marriage without having feelings for one another? Therefore, it's not really any better than dating when it ends, is it? If anything, it seems harder to get over, to me. It seems like instilling good values and allowing them to "date" would be a better choice, since there's no doubt they'd still hold true to their values anyway and not do much physical, but it wouldn't have all the pressure of courtship.

sandi said...

Usethename,I agree.I would much rather see constructive,responsible dating going on in these families.That is the real world and the reality of it.Even casual dating in groups would be better to get to know someone and invoke fewer expectations and hurt feelings than a failed courtship.

sandi said...

Re: I also find it so unreasonable that anyone who endeavors to court the girls has to be approved by Jim Bob. So much control, so much power. I wonder where all the feminists are these days. It is almost like the Victorian period in that house. The girls are under the authority of papa until he passes the authority over to their spouse. To hold this family up as an example for anyone to emulate is, in my opinion, "defrauding" to the nth degree!

----------------------------------

I agree.There's nothing wrong with responsible dating and putting limits on it.Many from prior recent generations have done so,such as by putting an age limit on it (no dating till a certain age),by not allowing car dates,or by allowing dating only in groups or with other couples.Also dad(and usually mom) still meets and approves of whom their daughter is dating,is the way responsible dating is taught.
I don't even like the word 'courting'.It's 18th century and not even up to date in today's modern world.I think most would agree that we need to teach our kids how to live responsibly in today's times.Dating in the 1950's was more up to date than courting is today.

Leigh Ann said...

This "modern" courtship system is more restrictive than old-fashioned courtship. I remember reading about how Almanzo Wilder would pick up Laura Ingalls every Sunday afternoon and other days as well and take her out riding in the country. By themselves! And you can bet Ma Ingalls wasn't going to let any of her daughters do anything unbecoming. Even earlier than that in Colonial times, "bundling" was a part of courtship. A boy would stay overnight at a girl's, both wrapped in their own blanket and sometimes with a board between them. It was supposed to encourage intimacy without going any further. I can imagine how many young people found their way around that. A boy would call at a girl's house on Saturday night and if he was really serious, Wednesday as well, and be with the whole family. But he would also pick her up alone and take her to a church picnic or something. And often times, the girl would ask the boy not to call any more because she just didn't like him that way. So it certainly didn't always lead to marriage.

I think this new courtship practiced by the Duggars and others is a make it up as you go along kind of thing. If you always want a chaperone because you think you just can't control yourself, go right ahead. But girls (and boys, too) historically have been given a lot more freedom in who they pair up with and how they spend time together.

msrylee said...

I would like to know what Jana had to say. However, this reality show is so censored and sanitized that we will never know. The answers given by the young women were simply what they've been taught, nothing more, nothing less. I agree that JimBob and Michelle would find fault with any potential mate. There are very good, honest, moral Christian young men in this world who would be suitable for these blessings. It is so sad that these blessings will probably never meet any of them. It's also sad that the blessings believe that they have no say in these decisions.

Kelly said...

Did anyone else notice how the other three girls looked at Jana everytime they got asked a question? I wonder if Jana is actually courting, or if she is just the oldest and therefore the one to ask?

msrylee said...

I'm not sure what is going on with Jana, but it seemed that the others looked to her, either for her to answer, or permission or something else. They all seemed to be uncomfortable both with the questions asked, and then in turn answering them. JMO. I assume that JimBob or Michelle gave their okay to the questions asked of the older blessings.

hart&sole said...

If there is to be a Bates/Duggar courtship it might have to wait quite a while, Lawson Bates wants to try his hand at making Christian westerns, Nathan is too young, Trace is way too young, Jackson, Warden and Isiah are little kids. Jackson Bates might be a match for JoHanna Duggar one day. They are both very outspoken and funny. If John David Duggar has his eye on any of the Bates girls I would suppose he would have made that known by now. What Kelly said was that Zach wanted to share Sarah's correspondence with his family, not that he is required to. Somehow I doubt that a couple who have decided that hand holding should be saved for marriage is writing notes that are all that intimate. Zach is taking his sisters one or two at a time to get to know Sarah and her family better. As I recall Josh similarly introduced Anna to his family. As I have said previously if Jana or Jill were interested in courting, I have no doubt regarding Michelle's ability to encourage Jessa, Jinger and JoyAnna to step up to the plate.

Allison said...

I agree with most of the thoughts on courtship in general, but I recently watched the show and I didn't think they were looking at Jana after every question. I think they were all looking at each other whenever someone was talking. I think perhaps in the question of "Is anyone dating someone?" there was an obvious reference to Jana (Jessa said, "Jana....") but it could be because she's the oldest. Maybe she is courting? Maybe she isn't.

But I didn't think they seemed terribly uncomfortable answering the questions. They seemed like they knew exactly what the party line is and were comfortable spouting off what they've been taught to believe. It's like any other question to which we already know the answer...

msrylee said...

How true that we already knew the answers to the questions asked of the older blessings. It is also sad to me, as well. However, the Duggar blessings seem to follow the party lines, nothing more, nothing less. I still think that Jana had something to explain, but we probably won't be told.

hart&sole said...

It seems, as the Duggars view it, young women either wait for Prince Charming, or 'date' which to them seems to mean sleeping around, rather than getting to know potential suitors. I found what Kelly Bates said about couples who enter a courtship 'without getting to know one another first' very telling. Obviously interest in a young man and woman is expressed early on. An 'unknown' young man doesn't drop out of the sky and ask permission to court a daughter. He would have to be known to the family and fairly sure the answer will be yes. As for the Duggar girls courting we will have to wait and see.Traveling to Ireland isn't going to give this show the 'shot in the arm' it needs. Has TLC learned nothing from it's other reality shows? Has JimBob no awareness of potential ratings? Not to 'sell'off hisdaughters for ratings, but to allow them to quit raising his babies and free them to have their own relationships. Besides, who doesn't love a wedding?

Michelle said...

I recently watched this episode again, and yes it is CLEAR that the girls all turn and look at Jana when asked, "So, who will get married first?". It is obvious that she is being courted.

As far as the rest of the episode - I thought it was quite telling that Dan said, "most parents watch their children like hawks - the Duggars just let them go wild" (or something to that effect). WOW! Surprised that made the edit.

sandi said...

Watch closely,because even though the others are clearly looking at Jana regarding courting,she clearly DOES mouth 'there WAS' when they're asked about there being anyone to court.I think this rules out it being Zach Bates,as he has recently entered into a new courtship,and although I could be wrong,it would seem too soon right after a failed courtship.