OT: Gothard: Fount of knowledge or downright dangerous?

Everyone seems to have an opinion about Gothard and unless it was something directly related to the Duggars we've held people off from the discussion.  During the Duggar episode hiatus, however, looks like a good time to let this run.

Food for thought in this article.

Please remember to be nice, not attack those who disagree, and do NOT try to turn it into a debate.  Thank you.


Seriously? said...

Thanks to the mods for allowing such an interesting and provacative discussion.

Where to start?? So many issues, so little space...

Let's begin with the fact that Gothard is a reportedly celibate old never-married man. Here's a clue: just as it's wise to seek a gastroenterologist rather than a dermatologist when seeking help for gastro-intestinal problems, when seeking guidance about marriage and parenting, it is unwise to turn to a man who has zero experience in either YET considers himself the expert. This alone qualifies as a Big Red Flag!

1)"the man has ultimate responsibility with eternal consequences,”

The husband provides an “umbrella of protection” or “spiritual protection from Satan.” The wife needs to be in submission, because the husband is “going to answer not just for your own life and your own walk before God but for your wife and children,”

2)“hedge of thorns,” based on Hosea 2:6 and popular in conservative circles, is meant to “’lead the wayward back to himself with a ‘hedge of thorns’ in other words, ‘God make their life miserable so that they recognize the error of their way and come back under God given authority."

3)1)"Dissenters, then, “must be removed so that we can have the power. This has become his [Gothard’s] latest bludgeon to keep people in line with his agenda.”

The above are, IMO, the most outrageous Gothard tenets. In response:

1) Women are fully capable of taking responsibility for their own spiritual life and wellbeing. Adding a man to the recipe of life is absolutely optional, especially as pertains to feminine spirituality. Further, men and women are equally up to the task of being each other's 'umbrella of protection'. IMO, only pathologically insecure of both genders want to believe women require the absolute guidance and direction from men (read "subservient") in order to a) survive and b) remain ethical in life.

2) Satan? Seriously???

Further, actually praying for another's life to become so miserable as to compare to wearing a crown of thorns flies in the face of basic kindness and love. Any religion that encourages this type of ill-will towards others is misguided at best. No, the end does NOT justify the means.

3) FACECIOUSLY now: YES! To heck with the silly notion of freedom of religion. Instead, let's all demand that EVERYONE finds their place in fundamentalist conservativism lockstep, marching in unison right on into heaven.

The Constitution? Let's replace it with The Bible, as god intended. Freedom of religion is to be interpreted merely in an uber conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical context. Praise the lord and pass the butter.

Bottom line for me is the scary desire for this type of Christian conservative to feel all righteous and holy by revoking the rights and freedoms of 'non believers'. Their (including the Duggars) attitude is anything BUT 'encouraging'.

Reality TV Junkie said...

The Gothard denomination is something I would never take part in.

A husband won't provide protection from Satan; Satan will attack everyone, married or not. Protection from Satan is found only through God.

I don't believe is Christian deominations at all. Either, you are a Christian or not. God says in the bible for Christians not to divide yourselves, up, and to that I will obey Him.

I also can't understand why a parent would would use parenting advice from a childless man. Same thing for marriage. His tips may work, but to me it's silly to listen to someone unexperienced.

Lindy said...

I wrote about Gothard a little in the free discussion for august 2011. It boggles my mind that, while there is nothing wrong with a supposed expert having no personal experience in marriage or children, so many people, like the Duggars and the Bates, will follow his teachings without questioning anything.

Perhaps Gothard wishes that he grew up in the late 1800s, given the style of dress and hair he wants the women to go by. Much of what he espouses makes me think that he misses the "simplicity" of the past. I believe that he views the past through rose-colored glasses.

I also wonder why those who follow Gothard seem to not let their adult children go to college, when they themselves may have gone to college. I am not talking about College Minus, but real accredited by their respective states brick and mortar colleges.

ennvee said...

This is rather long, but it is a thoughtful position paper put together by a conservative Christian church that experienced an influx of members who essentially began to reject solid religious doctrine for Gothard's teachings to the point where they broke off and formed homechurches such as the Duggars.

As with everything I read regarding Gothard, the problem seems to be rooted in how Gothard twists verses to make them mean something completely different.

For instance, and this is a BIG sticking point, Ephesians 2 talks about how people inherently have God's grace; it does not to be earned. Gothard omits the most important part of the verse; he teaches that grace must be earned through works. It's all here:


And here (a new blog written by adults raised in ATI) you can read about the damage done to those who had to reinvent themselves after Gothard's legalism did a number on them. This blog is written primarily by people who remain Christians today, but found out the hard way that Gothard's way was not the right way. A new article is posted daily and it's amazing how many respondents thought they were "the only ones" who felt a certain way. That speaks to the isolation and another interpretation of the Hosea verse that keeps the "wolves" at bay (yes, the real world is a pack of wolves to them). Another posts about how the real world was her "second world."


Anna Duggar's BIL, the one who posted about Anna's wedding and the difficulties with TLC also has a fairly new blog. He doesn't post often, but his insights into what it's like inside the Gothard bubble and how it is definitely an organization based on works (the more you do the "better Christian" you are). The articles are long, but well-written and worth reading for anyone who doesn't know the depth of Gothard's reach, especially the closer into the inner sanctum you get (where the Duggars currently reside).


Sorry for the length, but to understand Gothard, go to the IBLP website (which is all shiny and happy), then read the articles by people who have experienced it and processed it, from theologians to lay people who took many years to recover from the damage of Gothard's doctrine.

Amanda said...

My stand is to look at how long a belief system within Christianity has been around and compare it to the historical Christian writings ie the church fathers and mothers through the years beginning in the first century. They have a remarkable coherence and Gothard would find his position quite far from the historical church.

michelle said...

I was doing some "homework" on Gothard's teachings and compared them to the bible's teachings. As far as I saw they definitely did not match up.

michelle said...

The approach I like to take to biblical teaching is "if it isn't broken don't fix it"

ennvee said...

I'm putting this link in the Gothard thread (it's also in the GD thread because I hadn't listened to it all yet).

Having listened to the entire thing (trust me, I took one for the team), while they don't mention Gothard directly, ATI, the seminars and buzz words like "correction" and child "training" are a main theme of the discussion.

Michelle actually explains why she uses her baby voice: yet another piece of the Gothard Way; he's full of rules and when Michelle mentions "grace" out of context, having read the articles I linked above, I cringed.

They think they're doing right by their children, but every time I hear something from these people that isn't sanitized by TLC, thus allowing us a clearer look into their world view, I am really scared for those kids....especially when they and their like minded friends consider the outside world a place of evil indoctrination.

All here...Jim Bob is not shy about pimping out ATI, the Financial Freedom guy (a Gothard associate) and of course, the website:


michelle said...

IMO Gothard and the leaders like him like to keep women "sweet" and like children. Their definition of grace seems completely works-based and the "character qualities" meanings are way off their actual meaning. The camps that Gothard runs seem to be scary places of spiritual beat down.

camden said...

Peru as a Gothard model nation?

barnaby said...

"The camps that Gothard runs seem to be scary places of spiritual beat down."

We live in Wisconsin. During the time we had our BI (background investigation) business, we were sent to the Watersmeet, MI location by a US government agency on a very routine lead for a residence verification This was during the time the Watersmeet location was still used for their search and rescue training as well as their religious activities.

My husband did the actual interviews and I waited in the car. Within minutes of his arrival, a military-style vehicle arrived, filled with ARMED men wearing military style clothing, who went into the large lodge. Needless to say, I became alarmed.

While waiting, several other cars arrived not connected to this event. They were filled with women and children dressed like the Duggars used to dress, elaborate hairdos included. At that point I knew we were in a very strange place.

My husband was allowed to conduct the necessary interviews, though they were attended by several officials of the compound. He did see the armed men who initially appeared to be guarding the conference room where the interviews took place.

As we left and drove back to US Hwy 2, we were followed for about 5 miles. I could say a lot more, but it's not necessary to make the point.

I know this sounds like one of those silly "Insider" comments, but it did happen. We still talk about our scary, bizarre day in the Twilight Zone.

roddma said...

Gothard was at the right place at the right time. In the 1960's parents were looking for answers to the teen rebelliousness. However, his seminar has dropped drastically since the 1970's. A seminar of 2000 is considered good these days. The ironic thing is Institute of Basic Life Principles doesn't stop at basic.

ennvee said...

Yup. You have to go through Basic (as one would go through basic training in the military), not to mention the Advanced seminars to even be considered for admission into the inner sanctum of ATI.

You can't just "join" ATI. Families' applications get rejected and others are thrown out all the time; divorce is the biggest culprit.

And lest we forget, it's always the woman's fault in Gothardland. No matter the problem, the woman has to pray for whatever imagined sin caused the chickenetti to burn and the husband reject her. Same goes for the bedroom. Any problems there are always the wife's fault. That's why there is so much pressure on those women to stay as thin as possible even after having cartloads of kids.

There's a lot of guilt for the men, but Gothard REALLY piles on the guilt onto the gender who precipitated the Original Sin.

Pumpkin said...

My opinion of Bill Gothard was solidified as being firmly in the "wackjob" camp after I read this article here:


Which describes Bill Gothard's strange beliefs about Cabbage Patch Kids and those little collectible Troll dolls.

I'll quote a portion of the article here:

"He [Gothard] taught that the highly popular Cabbage Patch Kids® dolls were causing strange and destructive behavior in children that could only be alleviated when the dolls were removed or destroyed."

It goes further to state the following:

"Gothard has published even more claims about Cabbage Patch Kids since that first letter. His January 1996 Basic Care Newsletter from his Medical Training Institute defines the potential of the once-popular dolls. The publication stated that there are a core of midwives that are working against “Satan’s program from Genesis to Revelation to destroy the Godly seed.” This report endorsed by Gothard and his organization then describes “cleansing the home from evil influences.” The midwives searched the homes for Cabbage Patch Kids dolls and Troll dolls. They believed the destruction of these facilitated the births. Just having these items in the home retarded a speedy delivery, said the newsletter."

I'm sorry, but if I was in labor and my midwife told me she was going to destroy dolls in order to speed up delivery, I would think she was into some serious drugs, or maybe some funky perversion of witchcraft.

sandi said...

As far as guilt goes,wouuldn't it be something if one day Michelle's baggage comes fwd.This person must have a name,other than Jim Bob's ref. to him as merely 'baggage'.

Seriously? said...

re: Gothard and his whacko views, including Cabbage Patch Kids:

What is WRONG with people like the Duggars who go along with this craziness? If they actually believe this kind of nonsense, it seems to prove they are, well, not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

ilikepie said...

Re: "Gothard has published even more claims about Cabbage Patch Kids since that first letter. His January 1996 Basic Care Newsletter from his Medical Training Institute defines the potential of the once-popular dolls. The publication stated that there are a core of midwives that are working against “Satan’s program from Genesis to Revelation to destroy the Godly seed.”


Josh Duggar was born in 1998. The Duggars began the ATI homeschool curriculum when he was in the first grade (I believe I read somewhere that he went to kindergarden at the same Christian private school that Jim-Bob went to).

So, that means that the Duggars were firmly entrenched into the ATI philosophy when the 1996 newsletter came out regarding destroying cabbage patch dolls.

It is scary for me that this family is held up to us as a paragon of godly family life. I wish the TLC cameras would show us more of these types of beliefs and views, but then, they will never do that because they might lose viewers.

msrylee said...

My goodness!! After reading this article, I don't know where to begin. I need to process this, and I will post later. It is very difficult to believe that people are that gullible to get sucked in by this 'leader'.

Willow #1 said...

"Fount of knowledge or downright dangerous" ????? It is so obvious, but I must say it ... Dangerous!!!! That is really all I can say right now. I will post some more comments later, but I must go hit my head against a brick wall for awhile before I can even think!!! I have heard about the extreme "fundametalist" point of view all my life, and more recently, even the Gothard way of life; but the scary part now is the political angle. I will organize my thoughts after I have time to breathe deeply in a paper sack as I am hyperventilating right now.

sandi said...

Gothard's ways are very arrogant,IMO,and it seems he gets away with it in the name of religion and conservativism.Many people easily fall for that notion and it's a shame,imo.I would never care to associate with the likes of someone like Gothard,nor would I care to meet him or put his pic on my webpage.JMO/

JLR1952 said...

From what I've read on various websites the Duggars are a poster family for Gothardism, ATI and the Quiverful movement. Unlike many of the followers they have a large house and are basically thriving. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes but the family seems to be fairly happy. Many other families aren't doing so well. Their fathers/husbands are over stepping their authority and the families are living in squalor. Even the Bates didn't appear to care about adding on to the house until the Duggars came to help. I really like the Bates family but I'm sure they would just suffer along squashing in as many children as they can produce for the good of the cause. I'm anxious to see what the outcome will be when all of these children have children. Nobody wants to work outside of the home. Or go to school. This is a crazy system and I'm hopeful we'll be hearing from some Duggar dissenters in the near future. After all Jim Bob and Michelle weren't raised in this archaic system!

ennvee said...

Fun with Modesty. This is a 2002 reprint of articles written by Teri Maxwell (of Chore Pack fame) in 1999. I didn't realize that they began as Gothardites, but the Wisdom Books get a shout out in this lesson of What Not To Wear:


Just a taste (apologies in advance for the formatting):

"One of the most helpful things we did was when we had a school assignment on dressing modestly. There were some very specific examples with drawings given of “eye traps.” These were styles of women’s clothing that draw the eye away from the face and to other parts of the body. Some were a revelation to me! I had to go to my husband and ask, “Steve, if you see a woman with a slit in her skirt does it draw your eyes to her legs?” We went through each of the examples and he confirmed that they were “eye traps” for men. We also went to the airport and sat the family in a busy spot. We watched the people – specifically watching men’s eyes as they looked at women with some of these clothing styles on. Ugh! What a lesson for our daughter!"

"The pictures and descriptions of “eye traps” I mentioned studying in the other post were from IBLP’s Advanced Seminar Textbook page 276 – 281. I can’t go into detail on this because it is copyrighted material."

Seriously? said...

"eye traps"????

Why is it always the women who are portrayed as evil seductresses?

And whhy are Duggar/Gothardized men so weak and immature that they are unable to look at an attractive woman without lust?

If these men are genuinely this lascivious, why not fix THEM instead of blaming women and placing all responsibility for male behavior on the females?

Why does Michelle Duggar and Gothardized women go along with this craziness?

sandi said...

Seriously said,I agree,and I can understand if women think that the bible says God wants them to wear dresses out of respect for him,but the notion of eye traps is ridiculous.In that context,the men should be wearing dresses as well!

ilikepie said...

Oops, I meant to type Joshua was born in 1988, not 1998. Sorry if I confused anybody.

msrylee said...

I have often questioned why the male Duggars are not responsible for their reactions to other females. The older Duggar females are responsible to yell and holler "nike" in order to warn their male sibs to look away. What gives with this? Surely the men need to assume responsibility for themselves. How can the women go along with this? The reasons I can think of are that they are brain-washed, and very afraid to go against their 'leader' Gothard. While the Duggars have tried to distance themselves from Gothard followers, I really believe they do follow his teachings. I just wish the Duggars would come clean about this, too.

Patrice said...

I believe these people have way too much time on their hands, and way too much belief in things that make no sense. I read through the articles about dress. Besides the ridiculousness of such rules like not having contrasting buttons on your skirt (because the man will look at the buttons and then his eyes will travel to your legs)...the entire thing is disturbing because it constantly refers to "the authority of God and the husband/dad" as if they are on the same level. The Maxwells say that when they buy clothes, they model them for dad so he can tell them whether they are modest enough or not. Please! I wonder if the Duggars do this too...I can't imagine that they are still that backward. Jim-Bob does not have to approve every outfit, does he?

ennvee said...

I think the exposure from TLC and the criticism it engendered made the Duggars back off the full frumper look, but all those old pics posted over the last few weeks illustrate that they were still in that mode as late as when they moved into the Tinker Toy House. It appears that between those specials and the development of the series (which is usually a year out, if not a bit longer), they got some advice to moderate their look somewhat.

I mean, the boys weren't even allowed to wear jeans to play until the series, and they are far less "defrauding" than khakis, which are most of the time not as thick as good old pair of Levi's.

Yet another example of how these people read Gothard's crap and think to themselves that if they don't follow his dictates to the letter of the law that they are being ungodly. What they ARE doing is following a bunch of rules that are NOT in the bible, otherwise, men would still be wearing togas.

Gothard's 7 rules of this or trinity of that are ridiculous and when analyzed by actual biblical scholars, are found not to be biblical, although he keeps just enough solid theology in his Wisdom Boolets and IBLP seminars/ATI, etc. to make it appear legit to that person who may be doubting their faith. They are the most vulnerable to fall into this guy's clutches.

It's the kids who have never known any other life whom I really feel for. Those links I provided above (including Anna D's BIL's) are a testament to the damage of Gothard on vulnerable minds who only want to please their parents and God.

FWIW, most of the people posting remain Christians; they did not go to the other extreme, although some have become agnostic or atheists after their experiences (and are ironically reamed by former Gothard survivors who kept the faith). That is really sad to me; no matter where they end up, the main thing is that they got out. Thankfully, retention rates are low, so there is hope for the Duggar kids.

Seriously? said...

"I think the exposure from TLC and the criticism it engendered made the Duggars back off the full frumper look"


"Frumpers" - that's hilarious! Very clever, Envee! Thanks for the laugh. I have always thought those Duggar jumpers were outlandishly frumpy. "Frumpers" says it well.

pumpkin said...

This is from Bill Gothard's own website (www.billgothard.com).

"Jesus singled out this command and reaffirmed it as well as the judgment that went with it. “For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death” (Matthew 15:4).

He went on to condemn the Pharisees for giving lip service to this commandment, but then making it null and void by man-made traditions. (See Matthew 15:6.) It is impossible for a couple—regardless of their age—to keep this commandment if they refuse to listen to the counsel and cautions of their parents on the matter of marriage.

If we say that a person over eighteen years of age has the legal right to make his own marriage decisions, regardless of whether those decisions please his parents or not, we are making the Law of God of no effect by our traditions."

I for one am grateful that my parents were NOT gothardites. The whole thing about legal adults not being able to make their own decisions makes me angry. OK, I could see his point if he was talking about young people who have only just turned 18, especially if they've been raised in a sheltered environment, but does this last until... 30s, 40s? Until the parents die?

I married in my early 30s. We met, lived with, and eventually married after 3 years of living together. My parents were not excited about the fact that we were living together, but they also recognized that I was a finally and emotionally independent person who made my own decisions and lived with the results. I am so thankful that I have the opportunity to live this lifestyle.

Gothard goes on to state the following:

"One of the valuable rewards of courtship is the protection of emotions that are stirred up by physical and emotional interaction, until the time when it is clearly God’s will to proceed into marriage.

If, during the time of courtship, one party realizes that this is not God’s will and ends the relationship, it can still be regarded as a successful courtship, because God directed and the individuals were not damaged."


Not damaged?!? I have to disagree with him most forcefully on this point. I was most emotionally damaged by a relationship which was not sexual, but in which I believed I was in love with someone who loved me back. It would be another 7 years before I got involved in another serious relationship.

msrylee said...

I too think that both parties can be damaged when a relationship ends. I guess in the Gothard kingdom, people are not to invest their emotions in a courtship, and therefore are not 'damaged'. Just another issue I have with this thinking. I find it difficult to understand how an unmarried, childless man actually believes his word is the final one. What does he know about courtship? Falling in love? Raising blessings?

hart&sole said...

Evil Cabbage Patch dolls, contrasting buttons on skirts, eye traps? How on earth does this man with his idiotic ideas appeal to so many people? That is the scariest part!

msrylee said...

It is beyond me why so many listen to this 'leader'. I just don't get it.

Patrice said...

If you do any research on cults, the characteristics are always the same. One person preys on those who are weak, vulnerable, uneducated, etc. and convinces them that he is their leader, sent directly from God, or representing God and is able to run their lives in this fashion. Of course the Duggars and such would never call their religion a cult, but it does have all the same components as a cult. And once a person is sucked into it, they do not see the world the same anymore, only do as they are told to do by the trusted leader. It's sad that any one person can have that kind of power to lure so many in.

ennvee said...

This awesome refutation of Gothard's stand against music with a back beat, especially "rock music," is too good not to share with everyone. The author deserves a medal for tearing apart one of Gothard's most ridiculous "sins." Not to mention, I guess my mother was a sinner too because she and I would sing rock and soul songs out loud (and very badly) while in the car together. Yet she was an upstanding Christian, a matriarch figure in her church.

Try not to laugh too hard. :)


Willow #1 said...

Is it me or do the Duggars/Gothard, etc. spend a lot of time worrying about the rules of male/female/sex etc linteraction and the minding of the father, more than they do other parts of the Bible. It seems they put most of their emphasis on these types of things, when there is a lot more to the Bible and living a religious life than just those subjects. Isn't the Bible meant to be taken as a whole? Am I wrong?

Seriously? said...

"Is it me or do the Duggars/Gothard, etc. spend a lot of time worrying about the rules of male/female/sex etc linteraction and the minding of the father, more than they do other parts of the Bible. It seems they put most of their emphasis on these types of things, when there is a lot more to the Bible and living a religious life than just those subjects. Isn't the Bible meant to be taken as a whole? Am I wrong?"


IMO, you are exactly right! The Duggars/Gothardites spend needless time on gender roles and over worrying about 'purity', missing the more important, deeper issues of morality. I truly don't think they are able to comprehend anything beyond the truly simplistic, black and white constructs of Gothard.

hart&sole said...

Does anyone have any idea how many Gothard followers there are? I've sort of thought of him and his followers as a small group of misguided, sex absorbed people, but now I am wondering. Especially troubling was Jackson's (Bates) comment on Primetime about 'They aren't like American Army Soldiers, they are like God's Army' as the older cadets, marched by. He may be only 9 years old, but he pays attention.

Willow #1 said...

Seriously? .... I think you are right. There apparently are types of people who want/need lots of structure and just want someone else to decide for them because they don't want to - or can't - think these things out for themselves. What is extra sad is that they cling to this mantra even into adulthood.

To Heart& sole .... Wow, I had heard the words "God's army" before but are you saying they are actually having the children train for this? Was this at the Texas ATI event? Wow. Just wow. I am astounded. I could go on about this subject but probably best that I don't.

ALSO, did anyone watch "Anderson Cooper" on CNN tonight (Fri. 9/2)??

I really hope someone else saw this program. It was about the book "How to Train Up a Child" and about how the IFB Baptist churches discipline their children and etc. Very eery. If anyone else saw this, please post and let me know. Thanks.

Seriously? said...

"Wow, I had heard the words "God's army" before but are you saying they are actually having the children train for this?"

and AC360 re: "Training Up (??) Children"


1) Google "Birthing God's Righteous Warriors" for a very scary look into the Quiverful/Duggar mentality regarding rationale for having so many babies.

2) These people (author of the Quiverful book AND those who feel all holy about 'spare the rod/spoil the child') are SCARY and a good example of the mindset that turns many of us off to uber religious types.

It is misguided at best to use the bible as rationale for such heinous human behavior and THEN (amazingly) feel all righteous about doing truly horrific things.

Also, these two examples above (and, yes, add the Duggars to this list) seem to demonstrate a sad and scary lack of common sense and intelligence and, thus, help paint the picture that those drawn to be THIS level of ultra conservative/religious are people who lack smarts. It makes religion appear to be more about controlling the less intelligent, weaker types than setting high ethical standards. This is sad all by itself.

Willow #1 said...

Thanks for the info Seriously. I totally agree with you! As for "Spare the rod" -- It wouldn't possibly mean beating your children into having no will, etc. Who would take over the running of things if your children grew up with no mind/feelings/will of their own. Its ridiculous. JMO.

Seriously? said...

"Who would take over the running of things if your children grew up with no mind/feelings/will of their own."


Sadly, in Duggar World, it is the Patriarch who runs everything. Gothard/Duggars raise their kids (and wives) to be unquestioningly obedient. It's as if they were absent when the class studied the Hitler era, and, so, have learned nothing from how that mindset can potentially play out.

ennvee said...

Hmmm....now it becomes apparent why Ray Comfort (the sleazy joke-telling guy on the bus) was hanging out with the Duggars this past summer.

He made a movie about the Duggars' pet cause: don't spay or neuter.


The Duggars gave it a glowing endorsement. I won't give my own review; watch the previews and surmise what these people were SHOWN (not told, no time for debate) in those 90 seconds.

hart&sole said...

Well, I can honestly say,"Birthing God's Righteous Warriors" was pretty scary. One has to wonder if this is just a few crazies or if the Duggars actually believe this. "America Invaded by Gothardite Zombies for Huckabee!" adds some badly needed perspective to the "Warriors," but that is scary too. In 2008 Gothard's institute was a $30 Million dollar operation. Wonder what it is now?

hart&sole said...

Actually I think Michelle didn't 'get' the part about being subservient to Jim Bob. Looks to me like she wears the 'pants' in that family and always has. She's just clever enough to let Jim Bob think he has the reins.

msrylee said...

I also think that Michelle has always worn the pants in her family, but appropriately tells the world that JimBob has the final say in decisions, and she is in submission to him. She just very cleverly wears those pants IMO.

Seriously? said...

"He made a movie about the Duggars' pet cause: don't spay or neuter."

I'm hoping the Duggars are not also against spaying/neutering animals. Have these people ever read anything about ASPCA?

IF the Duggars are against limiting unwanted pregnancies even for pets, then IMO there simply is no excuse for this level of ignorance.

Time for the Duggars to follow the Gosselins into oblivion. The Duggars are a depressing view of America.

hart&sole said...

Did you read about the law that Mississippi voters will decide about 'personhood' I think they called it. Apparently the way it is worded, it would outlaw birth control, abortion, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research. No this is not a joke, although it should be. Is Gothardism spreading like a virus?

sandi said...

hart,I've a feeling that won't get very far;though the Gothardites are trying,we still live in a very secular nation.I'm not worried about them.

Willow #1 said...

I haven't heard this subject discussed, but does anyone know if the Gothardite/Duggar type families require the oldest daughter getting engaged/married/courted before the 2nd-oldest daughter? Would Jana have to be "taken" before Jill would be allowed to court? Thanks if anyone knows the answer to this. I am pretty sure this would not even be an issue with the males at all.

hart&sole said...

Willow, I don't believe the eldest daughter must marry before the others can, simply because Anna is younger than her sister, Priscilla, who remains single.

Seriously? said...

"Did you read about the law that Mississippi voters will decide about 'personhood' I think they called it. Apparently the way it is worded, it would outlaw birth control, abortion, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research. No this is not a joke, although it should be. Is Gothardism spreading like a virus?"


More evidence of the Dumbing Down of America. WHY isn't it enough for Duggar-types to simply abstain from these things if they believe they are immoral. WHY must they insist on FORCING their beliefs down the throats of the rest of us?

I find this mindset nothing short of SCARY.