Free Discussion April 2013

Please use this for Duggar and Bates sightings, speculation, or general discussion. Note that this is Duggar discussion not other families, TV shows, politics, religion, or personal stories. If the comment is more about you or some other issue than the actual Duggars or Bateses or other families seen on the show, please rethink before sending. Thank you!

116 comments:

Hannah said...

Its a Boy


http://www.wetpaint.com/network/articles/19-kids-and-counting-stars-expecting-a-baby-boy


I don`t want any more big Gender revels on the show.

Nancy said...

Since Jim the sound guy planned the reveal, it will be filmed for us to snark on. Poor Kynzie. She's going to be a full-time housewife in about 5 years (and 2 or 3 blessings later).

hello said...

Mackynzie is going to be one busy little girl if Josh and Anna follow in Jim Bob and Michelle's footsteps by making the older girl step in and take charge of her younger siblings. I just hope they will let her have a childhood and not push her into the role of "buddy" to her younger siblings.

What ever happened to College Plus? aka Stephanie said...

I was just reading the old parentable about "movie night" with Bambi and how they all watched it. Lincoln - the movie - was filmed in Richmond, stars my favorite actor and Daniel Day-Lewis, the "best actor alive" according to Time Magazine, a Steven Speilburg directed movie, and an Academy Award winning movie. The movie is clean, no sex, war violence and much, much political talk, why can't they watch that movie?

I'll tell you why, because of all of the above, because I love History, and I like governement ok we saw it in November & just bought the DVD.

If the Duggars love politics and Government like they pretend, they would be talking about this movie. Another truth? The adults would have NO IDEA what they are talking about, I had trouble keeping up myself.

MandySue said...

Just looked ar the Wallers blog-

Can they learn to spell? Therd and rees. At least spell check? What does it mean that Paul is the first official Waller grandchild and the third grandchild? The sister's kids don't matter because they don't have the last name Waller? How arrogant does that sound?

Rachel HM said...

I already feel bad for Mac. She will be the "mother" for these boys.

Special Ed Lady said...

I agree MandySue. That has irritated me, too.

They would never all the blessings to see Lincoln. I am sure then ending scene would never be premitted in their house.

Carolyn Bassett said...

Mac has so many older, unmarried aunts that she may be fine. I suspect one of the girls will " come up alongside" Anna,, and offer a "servants heart".

Nancy said...

I've seen Joy in the background of a lot of the Instagram pics, so I think it's a safe bet that Anna already has her "help" in place. Although if Jill has to go to assist with a birth, does that mean Joy has to go home to take care of Jenny?

Elspeth said...

Soundman Jim cooks at the Duggars.

http://web.stagram.com/p/405262048990225878_1875152

MandySue said...

Why would any woman stay in the Gothard lifestyle. They are sentenced to a life of drudgery (which is spelled a whole lot like Dugger..hmmm)

They are responsible for what the men see (Nike),cooking, cleaning, children, making babies, looking at their husbands adoringly, learning to speak, in that babyish Gothard voice. If the husband needs extra help at work helping him. After a full day they still have to look good for hubby.

Geez the list goes on and on.

The men are responsible for..well making sure the little lady stays in line.

Why would any sane, normal woman want her daughter to grow up that way?

Speaking of Nike..why can't men yell out Nike? Because then people would know they were looking?

hannah said...

The new Intro! What first jobs. I thought it was only Josh.

Special Ed Lady said...

7 to 12 patients a week is not a job.

Pam said...

I agree MandySue.
It appears David got about as good of an education as the Duggars.....Therd grandchild indeed.

Judy said...

Why do they always want their kids to do things in pairs? Are they incapable of going out into the world singly?

zebracrossings said...

Having lived this lifestyle/mindset....I know personally that a lot of things they believe and do are based on fear of the world....yes, the 'world' can be a dangerous and scary place...but if they truly trust the Lord with their family (not just the size of it)...then the children would be allowed to do more in the big, bad world...I understand a lot of things they do and even appreciate it...but they MUST get past that FEAR....they must give that fear to the Lord and let these children grow up when they 'graduate'. They should be encouraged to do 'normal' things young adults do when they reach a certain age. The fear that has sheltered them keeps them from doing those things...dating/courting, getting a job (not just family owned), seeking higher education, doing things alone... I am so glad that personally...our family has been released from this fear....we still embrace the homeschooling and family time...but aren't controlled by it. I can imagine that so many years of holding the children 'under their wings' has only made it harder to let them go. I love the Duggars...just feel sorry that they can't truly trust the Father whom they claim to trust.

Pam said...

Judy, from my understanding they go in pairs so they always have an accountability buddy. This way if you think of looking at a cute boy or listening to "evil" music on the radio, you will get told on. Imagine quite a few of these girls are adults who are able to vote, but are not even trusted to go shopping alone.

MandySue said...

Judy said...
Why do they always want their kids to do things in pairs? Are they incapable of going out into the world singly?
-------------------------------

They have to watch out for each other because you never know when someone with green hair will show up. One might see a guy/girl that is not Gothard and find them attractive.

They may see a People magazine and wonder what it is all about.

It's harder for two to escape

MandySue said...

This is from David loves Priscella-

my parents saw some negative influences coming from some of the things my older siblings were learning from their peers at kindergarten. They struggled to help them cope with the pressures, but finally half-way through first grade, the twins were pulled out of public school to begin a journey of educating at home. Life became our classroom and tests of our character were really the determining factors of passing or failing not just in school, but in every aspect of life. For my parents, they were not as concerned with how many stacks of books we studied, but rather the attitude we had as we studied.

----------------------------------------
Evidentially attitude is more important than learning. You don't have to know how to encouragement as long as you know what it is.

It's amazing how they can't watch tv or listen to modern music but everyone of them knows how to use a computer.

hello said...

The kids have to go out in pairs because it seems that Jim Bob and Michelle simply don't trust them. They must not have much faith in the way they "trained" them. When Josh got engaged to Anna, they had to have a chaperone so bad things wouldn't happen. That was said by the sister that was picked to be their chaperone.

Stephanie said...

What in the world bad influence could Kindergarten students possibly been given to the Waller kids? How stupid. As stupid as Michelle continueing to say birth control pills caused a miscarriage.

Back to what bad Kindergarten influence? Teletubies? Barbie doll? Ninja Turtles? Give us a break.

Just watching Snow White & the Huntsman (not great but hey, we had a strange little snowstorm in Virginia tonight) anyway, even in Snow White gets kissed by the handsome prince. What's the big deal?

imaamy said...

You would be surprised what kindergarten kids can say and do. Pop culture influences such as skimpy clothes and music with questionable lyrics...young kids get it from TV, older siblings, even their parents. They try out words we don't allow in our house (and we are not Gothardites!) such as stupid, retarded, sucks, etc. These days kindergarten kids may come from unmarried parents, biracial parents or homosexual parents. Wallers would not want their kids exposed to that.

Willow said...

I just hope Jana is doing the "doula" thing because she really wants to and not because Jill needs a chaperone (I mean "partner"). Jana just did not seem to have the excitement about it that Jill did. I think Jill will really do this. She mentioned she was learning Spanish so she could go to ----- America. I could not hear the first word (assuming Central or South America?). It seems like she is going a little slow with it, but seems to be sticking with it for now. Good for her on that at least.

hello said...

imaamy said...

You would be surprised what kindergarten kids can say and do. Pop culture influences such as skimpy clothes and music with questionable lyrics...young kids get it from TV, older siblings, even their parents. They try out words we don't allow in our house (and we are not Gothardites!) such as stupid, retarded, sucks, etc. These days kindergarten kids may come from unmarried parents, biracial parents or homosexual parents. Wallers would not want their kids exposed to that
---------------------------------
So what if kids are from unmarried, biracial or homosexual parents. What about kids that are adopted? I believe it is very sad that people would judge a kid on how they came to be born. Would these same people judge a child based on their religion background?

Pam said...

These days kindergarten kids may come from unmarried parents, biracial parents or homosexual parents.


Wow......personal views aside, there are all different kinds of families. What infuriates me is so called "Christian" people teaching their kids they are better than other people. Saying you don't want to be exposed to this to just like saying you are better than they are. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but all people deserve to be treated the same.

Not a Fan said...

I agree that some people have not policed what their own kids listen to, watch, say or do. My kids will start Kinder next year. They spend my work days at my mothers house with cousins that do attend school and do say rude, inappropriate things. As my kids parents, my husband and I have set rules NOT allowing them to talk this way. Just because other people's kids (family included) act in a way that is not to your own standards, does not mean you have to automatically allow your child to do the same. That is a time that you stand up, buckle down and make sure your kids understand what is expected of them. You should not keep your kids from the experience of being social and making friends just because you are spineless and incapable of making your standards heard by them. You are only punishing your kids for the acts of other children and their parents inactions.

sandi said...

The kids in these families are mssing out on all the positive aspects of going to school as well.They will never know what it is like to have to get up on time,get on the bus and go to school,turn in a ppr on time,worry about passing a test (or studying for one),composing yourself in class and sitting still, getting along with others who are not like-minded,or how to get a project done before a deadline..all things that build character.I'm glad Jill is at least getting to experience some of these things now,but I don't see even College Minus providing anything close;all it seems to be is a cop-out for those who don't want to attend classes. JMO.

Not a Fan said...

These days kindergarten kids may come from unmarried parents, biracial parents or homosexual parents. Wallers would not want their kids exposed to that.

Now I agree that WALLERS would not want to have their children exposed to a richly diverse set of people(children). IMO this type of thinking is bigoted and teaches children how to be intolerant. This is a melting pot of a country, in the real world people have to be able to interact with all different types of people. So what if children come from a home that is not like yours? FAMILY is FAMILY no matter how it is made.

londonbridges said...

The Duggar blessings have not been taught tolerance for anyone other than their own Gothardites. I believe that life is precious and therefore all children are special, no matter the 'family'structure. The Wallers prove their intolerance over and over again. Allowing children to associate with others outside their group doesn't mean automatic brain-washing, bad language, etc. Parents need to enforce boundaries from a very young age. Children need to know what their parents expect, and what behaviours and speech is never tolerated in their family.

I assume that the pregnant women who receive care from Jill and Jana are married women in an approved union, who hold to the same thinking and beliefs as the Duggars. After all, JimBob and Michelle would not want their blessings to be exposed to any other lifestyle or thinking. JMHO.

imaamy said...

---------------------------------
So what if kids are from unmarried, biracial or homosexual parents. What about kids that are adopted? I believe it is very sad that people would judge a kid on how they came to be born. Would these same people judge a child based on their religion background?

Totally agree - I was not in any way saying I agree with treating kids differently. I was just pointing out exposures that Duggars might not want their kids to have. Since they don't approve of homosexuality, they might not want their kids in school with a kid who has two Moms or two Dads.

Whatever happened to College Plus? aka Stephanie said...

Would a few of you wikipedia "doula" and google "can you make a living from being a doula?"

Very interesting. A doula is defined as a non-medical childbirth coach helping before after and during childbirth. Physical & Emotional support. Hand holding, helping move around physically, and verbal support. First of all Jana would be a very calm presence as a coach which I personally would like.

However, Jana will not be able to make a living doing this. I don't think they plan on her making a living on being a doula. It would be a good part-time job as a 2nd or 3rd income. Most who answered the question charge $500 per birth and you can't over schedule because if you have a conflict your reputation is shot. It cannot be done to support yourself comfortably.

You really don't have much training either. I assume Jana doesn't want to do pelvic exams or deal with the placenta/baby juices (haha). But actually a doula would do exactly what they did for Anna. Get things she needs, fill up birthing tub, get towels, get ice chips, clean up after when birth is over. So Jana has already done that with Anna and maybe Michelle. My husband has been a doula too. Who knew?

sandi said...

IIRC,I think doulas also help with birth plans and they can act as a liason between the Dr and patient,making sure the plan is adhered to as much as possible (for births where a Dr. is present,as in hospitals and some birth centers).
Although we know Jill assisted with the hospital birth in China,I'm not sure she and Jana would be allowed to step out of the normal home birth setting on a regular basis?

flowerchild said...

Poor Josiah has terrible acne and maybe some nervous picking. He needs proactive or a dermatologist. I do think Jimbob picks on him and he probably has a miserable life at home. I get the feeling he's the family scapegoat.

Ashley said...

"However, Jana will not be able to make a living doing this. I don't think they plan on her making a living on being a doula. It would be a good part-time job as a 2nd or 3rd income. Most who answered the question charge $500 per birth and you can't over schedule because if you have a conflict your reputation is shot. It cannot be done to support yourself comfortably."

What girl in Duggar-land is ever expected to support herself? They either live through their parents' support or their husbands. Wasn't Anna's sister Priscilla in her mid-20s when she married David Waller? I doubt she was living on her own and paying her bills at that point.

Alberta Rose said...

Stephanie said... You really don't have much training either. I assume Jana doesn't want to do pelvic exams or deal with the placenta/baby juices (haha). But actually a doula would do exactly what they did for Anna. Get things she needs, fill up birthing tub, get towels, get ice chips, clean up after when birth is over. So Jana has already done that with Anna and maybe Michelle. My husband has been a doula too. Who knew?

There is lots of training involved with being a doula. They do much more work than a labour coach does. Your husband would only be a doula if he helped many women give birth, not just you. Also, he would help you create a birth plan, intervene between you and the nurses if they were attempting to override or dismiss your birth plan. A doula can also help a husband in his role as a labour coach. The home birth I attended, I was the liaison between my friend and the midwives when things got tough. When her husband panicked at the same point he did the first labour, I took over and helped her regain confidence, while her husband faded into the background. The role of a doula is a very important one. It can also be a main source of income if the woman is not obsessed about material things. Jana's upbringing is beneficial to her career choice, because she won't care about new cars, new clothes, expensive makeup, hair salons, magazines that tell you how to live your life, she'll just care about women having an empowering and uplifting birth experience.

imaamy said...

Alberta Rose, I disagree about the girls not wanting material things. They've all been spending time on hair and makeup recently (they have those wave curling irons), they are used to iphones and lots of big cars, they've been taking several big trips a year...I think they are more accustomed to material things than they were back in the little house when they all wore matching dresses and had plain hair.

sandi said...

>Jana's upbringing is beneficial to her career choice, because she won't care about new cars, new clothes, expensive makeup, hair salons, magazines that tell you how to live your life, she'll just care about women having an empowering and uplifting birth experience.
----------------------------------
That may be true,but she's also used to living in a big house with an industrial kitchen,multiple dishwashers,washers and dryers,her sisters and grandmother helping her with daily chores,all the bills paid by someone else,etc.
I do think the Duggar girls are going to want to marry well in order to keep up that level of lifestyle they enjoy now,even if it doesn't invovle the latest in vogue.JMO.

londonbridges said...

I also think the older blessings are used to material things, such as Iphones, make-up, hair gadgets, over-seas trips, great hotels, nice vehicles, etc. Hopefully JimBob will choose a mate for them who can continue to provide at least as well as TLC. JMHO.

Ari said...

Alberta Rose, you seem to defend everything negative that's said about the duggars...you realize you have no biblical obligation to protect them, right? Unless you're some sort of insider, but I don't think you are.

Beth Anne said...

Re: "Jana's upbringing is beneficial to her career choice, because she won't care about ... magazines that tell you how to live your life..."

IMO, she gets told how to live her life by a relative stranger...Bill Gothard. Remember, JimBob and Michelle had to "apply" to ATI and be accepted. Not like just signing up at a church office to attend that church, but actually have their intentions and lifestyle scrutinized before they were "accepted" into the fold. As such, they agreed to certain conditions and the adult offspring are still bound by those conditions.

As others have pointed out, it's not hard to read her body language, and she does not seem as happy, content, or fulfilled in this "career choice" as her sister, Jill.

Stephanie said...

Michelle needs to take him to the doctor - last year. He used to be the cutest of the boys and this is really hurting his appearance.

Stephanie said...

Doulas are hokie pokie, hippie type, non-medical trained, almost zero training or certification required. It's nothing at all but a glorified family member but not a family member. Most people that hire them don't realize they have no medical training. Many hospitals ban them because they interfere with real medical personnel. If Jill becomes a midwife, how handy will it be to have Jana there to help. That's all this is. They are just passing time until they get married. Its nothing.

Alberta Rose said...

Anonymous imaamy said...
Alberta Rose, I disagree about the girls not wanting material things. They've all been spending time on hair and makeup recently (they have those wave curling irons), they are used to iphones and lots of big cars, they've been taking several big trips a year...I think they are more accustomed to material things than they were back in the little house when they all wore matching dresses and had plain hair

The cars would be bought secondhand, I have an iphone I got for free by signing a three year contract so I'm sure they shopped around for a similar deal, the big trips involve missionary work which means part of the trip gets written off plus they are along with their parents, not personally going. Last, given the number of posts that are made referring to all the material things the young Duggar adult females are not allowed to do, I'm sure they can afford to get by on a doula or midwife salary.

imaamy said...

Let's be real. The iphones are given to them by the company for exposure. I just shopped for phones and the companies are no longer giving the freebies on the most desired. The trips are paid for by TLC, but still going around the world makes it harder to be content in NW Arkansas. And OK, a huge car bought used. What about the gas to fill up when it gets 8mpg? These girls are used to a lifestyle that would be very hard for a man to support running a tow business or the like.

MandySue said...

The role of a doula is a very important one. It can also be a main source of income if the woman is not obsessed about material things.
------------------

Let's not forget the tution fees for Gothard, and fees for everyone one of those "Journey's to the Heart" and Lord only know's what else they are paying to Gothard. I just don't think that Bill gives freebies away...probably something about trusting God with it.

The Duggars may not keep up with the Jones' in the evil world but they sure love to show off to the other Gothard followers. We have 19 children and the Jones' only have twelve...

sandi said...

Gothard can't even feed everyone everyday...JTTH has a day of starvation,which they call 'fasting'.Probably saves him a lot of money.
Yes did anyone catch Jim Bob's little dig when Anna and Josh announced their 3rd pregnancy? He said something to the effect that 'you will now have more kids than the average family in America'.So I guess the rest of us who have fewer are not as blessed. @@.

sandi said...

>The role of a doula is a very important one. It can also be a main source of income if the woman is not obsessed about material things.
----------------------------------
It's important to have a good birth coach,if you feel you need one to get you through it,I agree,but the point is moot for the Duggar girls.We all know they will not be allowed to live on their own before marriage,so the point is moot.

Andrea said...

MandySue - I totally agree with you. Gothard is a cult pure and simple. I agree some of the Duggars money must be going to this organization. I also think the adult daughters do want the latest fashions and personal cares items. Why shouldn't they? I mean, they're work each and every day they appear on our TV they should be entitled to the benefits of the income they generate.

Nancy said...

I can't remember where I read it earlier today, but someone who knew a doula broke down the charges, and unless you attend a LOT of births, one can NOT make a living as a SINGLE woman as a doula.

The 7-12 women a week that the practice shown Jana and Jill apprenticing at are not all delivering at the same time, and the CERTIFIED midwife - not the doula - would be the one charging for pre-birth visits. Jill is training to be a lay midwife, and while legal to practice in AR, are not legal to practice, unless under a certified midwife. So, in theory, Jill could practice and charge a fee for pre-natal appointments, but DOULAS cannot charge for things like transportation to a homebirth.

Bottom line, charging what they CAN charge for, at the going rate of $20/hr (my reaction was "Is that ALL?"), a doula only makes $420/delivery. That's before taxes. I'd think a doula would have to deliver 2-3 babies/week to be able to support herself without help. A midwife could obviously get by attending fewer births since she can charge more per hour (and for things a doula can't). I don't know how lay midwife pay stacks up to a certified midwife's, but I'm sure it's maybe half of what someone with a nursing degree can charge.

Anonymous said...

I wonder why Jim Bob and Michelle don't seem to be doing anything about their "blessings" acne problems. It seems to be getting worse and worse and they all seem to have the same problem. No excuse for that.

Patrice said...

"Yes did anyone catch Jim Bob's little dig when Anna and Josh announced their 3rd pregnancy? He said something to the effect that 'you will now have more kids than the average family in America'"
This is one of the many things that bothers me about these nuts. It is like they think there are only two kinds of families in America-Gothardites who pump out kids like there is no tomorrow and follow all their weird beliefs, and EVERYONE ELSE- less than a gazillion kids, public school educations, and naturally all are on drugs, pregnant at 16, have green hair and are doomed to...well, you know where! I don't think they would know an "average family" if they ran into them on the street.

Anonymous said...

I am not 100% sure about this, but it seems mackyenzie sleeps in a adult bed? I find this unsafe. And they never decorated the room as a childs room. Plus now mack and micheal have to share a room because of new baby. They def need a bigger house!

Nancy said...

It just occurred to me that the gender announcement was made on April Fool's Day.

I wouldn't put a Josh Duggar April Fool joke below him; it is totally his level of humor.

londonbridges said...

While I have issues with the Bateses, I believe that Kelly is truly a hands-on mom to her blessings. She seems so involved in their lives, and is making a serious attempt with home-schooling. She was in the middle of packing up right along with the older ones. Michelle may have been named Mother of the Year, but I think Mrs. Bates is more deserving. JMHO.

sandi said...

> I don't think they would know an "average family" if they ran into them on the street.

----------------------------------

In a way that may be a good thing though,should Jim Bob decide to get back into politics.Voters tend to vote for someone whom they can relate to,and who can relate to having a mega-size family (or even a large)number of kids,homeschooling,dressing uber-conservatively,not using use birth control,home church,separating themselves from society,not working for anyone else,no college education (other than college minus),no debt-not even good debt like mortgages and college loans,etc.Even the majority of conservatives can't fathom that.I don't think having a tv show will help Jim Bob in that respect.Or any of the others who might try to make a run into politics.JMO.

Julie said...

I am soooo sad that Anna said 5-6 more kids in the next 10 years. I hoped beyond hope they were a teensy bit smarter than that. Noooooooooooo!!!

Sharla said...

I'm sorry comments are slow to be approved. I'm dealing with a couple of family situations and we lost another mod. Time for the Duggars to get off the air?

londonbridges said...

It is so time for the Duggars to get off the air!

Thanks, Sharla, for the great job you do moderating this blog. Kudos.

Stephanie said...

When the 4 girls were speaking at ATI (infamouse Jewelrey Box speech) Jessa listed the most important relationships and then added another comment that I would love to hear them elaborate on:

Jessa said

"fear of the future, because that's a really big thing for girls"

What is the "fear factor" according to them? College age is one of the most incredible times of a persons life IMO. So much to look forward to, I don't know what they are afraid of. What do you all think she meant be that?

Boo's Mom said...

Doula's actually do have some training, but they are not to be compared with a licensed midwife. CNM's can practice in all 50 states, lay midwives cannot. (It varies by state)

Anna's comment is a bit ignorant. All birth has risks. But planned homebirth for women with low risk factors (with a trained attendant) is a very good option that think women should have. I wonder if Priscella felt pressed to have a homebirth?

I have to ask. While I'm all for home birth and women having control over their birth setting, interventions etc . . . I wonder if the choosing of lay midwives has anything to do with these women not wanting to deal with any male nurses, dr's, etc. (in terms of something as intimate as birth)

sandi said...

As far asnot dealing with male Dr's,nurses,etc.,I've always thought it was the men who didn't want them to see their wives in that respect.aka-I wholly think Jim Bob was the reason Michelle quit cheerleading,as he didn't like anyone seeing her thighs (never mind the short outfits in themselves!). I just don't think they have the confindence to have another male seeing their wives,even in a professional setting.JMO.

Duggar Fan said...

I am soooo sad that Anna said 5-6 more kids in the next 10 years. I hoped beyond hope they were a teensy bit smarter than that. Noooooooooooo!!!

***********************************
That comment from Anna doesn't sound like someone who is leaving the size of their family up to God's planning & timing. That would mean not doing anything to prompt or avoid pregnancy. Just because something (like having a huge gaggle of kids living in a small house) CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.

zebracrossings said...

This article mentions Duggars and other issues we have talked about on this blog.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2013/04/11/homeschooled-kids-now-grown-blog-against-the-past.html

Pam said...

I totally think the Duggar's don't want male doctors or nurses looking at their wifes. Men can't control themselves after all, right? Isn't that why Anna opted for a home birth with Mack, Dr. Sarver (?) was out of town and the doctor on call was male?

Leigh Ann said...

I'm reading that Daily Beast blog. Not to get off topic but I didn't want to mention something.

Quote from the blog:

"Legally, parents have enormous discretion in raising their children: in some states, there’s no oversight at all over homeschooling curricula, meaning that it’s perfectly fine to educate daughters for a life of housewifery rather than for higher education."

I did read about a lawsuit in one state. A home school group was giving the boys a college-prep education but the girls were getring a very basic education as it was expected all the would do was keep house and raise babies. The lawsuit was a gender discrimination suit. You couldn't give the boys a better education than the girls. The kids could have chosen a college-prep or more basic education or you could under-educate all the kids equally but you couldn't determine level of education based strictly on gender. I never heard how they came out or even if it went through the courts. But it had been filed.

Andrea said...

To Zebracrossing: I read the Daily Beast article you cited above. The article makes a passing mention of a school called Patrick Henry College. I read up on the school and it appears to be an academically challenging school where over 80% of students come from a home school environment. It was also pretty reasonably priced for a private school at less than 20k a year. Why, oh why are none of the Duggars attending such a school? Can someone please explain to me their aversion to a college education? I read up on PHC and the school also practices Courting just like the Duggars. Money cannot be the reason, interacting with non-Christian cannot be the reason, is it the thought of the adult children not being on their reality TV show?

MandySue said...

The Duggar kids can't go to college because then they will be exposed to non-Gothard people, will be challenged to do some critical thinking and most importantly they will no longer be under mom and dads control.

And REALLY the SOTDRT does not prepare one for college,

Zebracrossings said...

""Andrea said...
To Zebracrossing: I read the Daily Beast article you cited above. The article makes a passing mention of a school called Patrick Henry College. I read up on the school and it appears to be an academically challenging school where over 80% of students come from a home school environment. It was also pretty reasonably priced for a private school at less than 20k a year. Why, oh why are none of the Duggars attending such a school?.....""


There is also a school not so far from them called College of the Ozarks...this school is VERY strict Christian based school with zero tolerance to drug and alcohol...required chapel and lots of rules on dress codes and such. A lot of homeschoolers attend this school...seems like it would be the perfect place for the Duggars who are wanting a higher education and it is close to Springdale. I just wonder if they could even get into some of these schools with their education ending at age 16...GED would have to be passed. Don't know if they have gone that route or not?
I also think that these older daughters should really be asking for a separate room ...let's remodel Duggars...that would be fun to watch....build an apartment for those daughters who are at least in their 20's....ALSO....I watched a little of them on the Dr. Oz show. When they come out and are introduced...I was embarrassed for these children...just seemed so exploited.

roddma said...

Laymidwives are otulawed in 9 states. I know of a couple or three prohibit planned homebirth altogether. The AMA and American College of Obsetricans and Pediatrics really disocurage homebirths no matter the risk. The best option for Jana is CPN where at least she would in a hospital setting but that probablay won't happen. I have read a lot on homebirth and midwives. Actually, the certified part of CPM is only a credit they give themselves to look better. All I can say is Anna has been lucky nothing major happened. She only had a midwife and no doc in sight.

In "A Love that Multiplies" Jim Bob says even a private school can be bad influence. Coming from home school enevrionment in't meaning conservative Christian so maybe that't the Duggars' line of thinking.

Beth Anne said...

Re:

"Why, oh why are none of the Duggars attending such a school? Can someone please explain to me their aversion to a college education?"

Most of us have questioned that as well! Here's my guesses:

One - adult daughters away for weeks on end would mean Michelle does not have her live-in helpmeets. She cannot possibly be expected to actually RAISE the younger ones and provide ALL of them with hands-on care, right? I mean, she delivered them...isn't that enough?

Two - JimBob and Michelle would lose 24/7 control over said adult offspring, who then might develop their own interests and lives, and not the lives their parents believe they MUST have or pursue.

Three - related to number two, JimBob and Michelle are followers of Bill Gothard, who is anti-college education. He has his reasons which, again, seem to center around control, the devil could get a hold of the students if no one is there being their accountability buddy, someone might swear or express an "evil" opinion. It wouldn't occur to JimBob and Michelle to independently analyze the situation, assess what might be best for each child, based on his/her passions, personality, interests, etc. They fall in lock step with Gothard.

Elspeth said...

Anna didn't even have a midwife of any kind at her homebirths. She had the Bradley childbirth class instructor! Nowhere that people have found does Miss Theresa claim to be any sort of midwife.

Jac&Jil said...

Regarding Jana and Jill: At least it looks like they're attempting to do something, although it's so obvious that Jill is not allowed to go alone to be a "midwife," and Jana has to be her buddy, so she chose to be a "doula." They are both so immature for women in their 20s. And please girls, if you are going to be in those professions, please pull your hair back into a ponytail or clip it. I sure wouldn't want someone examining me or my child with all that hair hanging down in front of bare bellys and infants. Just seems so unsanitary to me.

Stephanie said...

Bare with me please:

In the first special, 14 kids & pregnant again, Josh was 16. They were in the 3 bedroom 1 bath house, limited income, with Jimbob gone most of the hours of the day doing odd jobs. The girls were doing the majority of the cooking but in general they were extremely poor and sheltered.

Let's pretend the Michelle has a 17 year old and younger group of kids today. Joseph being the oldest. That leaves 13 kids at home with Joy being the only teen girl with all the middle school aged boys, toddler girls, and baby girls. The brunt of the workload would fall on Joy.

So tire of people saying "how does she do it with 19 kids? For goodness sake, she has less minor kids now, way more help (including grandma), 2 huge kitchens, 4 washers and dryers, several cars, and an unlimited budget. Its a million times easier that it was 7 years ago.

I think I'm going to give Josh a break. He had it bad growing up.

Do the girls stay out of a guilt trip laid on them that its their duty to help their parents? After listening to David & Priscillas wedding vows, and hearing Bill Gothard say "we train up our children" I don't think they are seriously allowed to leave their parents yet even if they wanted to.

Leigh Ann said...

Jill could be at Pensacola Christian College. It's a really strict fundamentalist college (boys and girls can't even walk on the same sidewalk together) and they control everything but breathing. But they actually have a pretty decent nursing program. Anna's family is in Florida if there were to be an emergency or something. She'd do fine there. Jana could go, too, so they could keep each other honest. If she doesn't want to do nursing she'd probably find something else she was interested in.

Faith said...

Quick question: Any idea why we never see Michelle's parents and Kelly Bates's parents? At first I thought maybe because they are not following the Gothard way of life, but neither are Gill Bates's parents and they were featured on one the Bates's shows.

Canadian Fan said...

I graduated from PCC in '98. It's pretty strict, but not quite as extreme as separate sidewalks -- unless it's changed since I've been there. I was an English major but I know the nursing program is extremely difficult to get into. Nursing majors take all the same courses their first year and a big exam to see if they qualify for a spot in the program. If not, they pick a different major like education. There are chaperones with demerit pads and security cameras everywhere. Safety in numbers (especially when going off campus). BUT these families won't let their "adult" children move so far from home. Too bad for them.

Beth Anne said...

Re: "Jim Bob says even a private school can be bad influence."

Hey, JimBob, you know what else can be a bad influence? Twisted interpretations of the Bible and parents who choose to follow a man's "rules" of what Christian living is, rather than follow Jesus' example of being around all people, including sinners.

Even though the Duggars and many of the people they "fellowship" with claim to be living to a higher standard, they really engage in the same kind of one-upmanship many "heathens" do. That is, I believe they follow the rules they do because they are afraid they will look "bad" if they don't, and they are training their kids to be the same way.

I belong to a particular church and follow a particular religion, but the people in my church really do live very different lives, based on personal preferences and choices. It doesn't make one family more holy than the other, but it seems EVERYONE involved in ATI follows the exact same life pattern, lest they be seen as straying from some holy path. Quiverful of kids, homeschool, girls take on mothering duties at a young age, no "outside" education, homebirthing, no kissing or touching before you get married, no this, no that.

If this path was truly chosen after individual reflection and prayer, that's fine. But, there's a kind of warped peer pressure that takes place in the ATI/homeschool/fundamentalist communities. Believe me, I know, as I had a sibling go that way for a while and have known others who are on that path.

Elsbeth said...

Michelle's parents are easy: her mother is dead and we saw her father before he died.

I don't know about Kelly's parents. Maybe they are no longer alive or perhaps they don't live very close by.

Leigh Ann said...

Oh, I don't know about separate sidewalks! I just know it's a school where Jim Bob and Michelle wouldn't have to worry about their daughters. The school's beliefs fit in well with their own, the girls would fit in in manner of dress, there wouldn't be any one with purple hair. It's far enough from home for them to feel more independent but they'd still be looked after and if anything came up I'm sure the Bates family would be glad to help out. They'd have to get in, though. I know there are lots of homeschooled kids at PCC (and many other colleges and universities) it's just the Duggars brand of homeschooling that's an issue. But if they have a GED and do well on the SAT they should be OK, though. Jill's doing some pretty in-depth science with her midwife training. These kids aren't dumb, they might not have had much in-depth science and math but given the work I'm sure they could handle it. They ought to at least be given the chance.

dwindling fan said...

So, I am a doula, and will be the first one to admit that there are a lot of different types of doulas out there. Some are really bad, and some are really good. I have never met a doula that could support herself this way. It is not a profession where you really make much money. We are actually not banned from hospitals, we usually get special privileges actually. Learning to work with hospital personnel is a very good thing. There are a lot of wildly varied training programs someone can take to be certified in. I have no idea what Janna has taken. You also do NOT need to be certified to be a doula. So, you can get some pretty incompetent people posing as doulas. Not having watched all the new episodes yet, all I can assume is that Jana is planning on helping Jill as an assistant mostly. That way they will still be "buddies" whenever Jill has a birth to go to. Not very fulfilling in my book.

sandi said...

Jana just looks bored out of her mind,imo.I take it they are not doing the First Responder work anymore? She seemed more interested in that.
Either way,Jill seems to be really into midwifery, and enjoying herself,(which is great),while Jana just seems to be the accompanying buddy.This is so sad.I hope she gets to find something she would really like to do.

Canadian Fan said...

PCC was a great place to be and I know there are several other good Bible colleges where hyper-fundy parents would agree with their high standards. When I was there, PCC wasn't accredited yet but I think they are in the process of getting it accredited or maybe already have it accredited. It was also a great exposure to different cultures and there were many foreign students. Our Canadian contigent was the biggest group of foreign students. There are pros and cons in any institution of higher learning, but overall I think it would be a good experience for the "adult" kids.

Stephanie said...

Thank you for your post it was very informative and pretty much agrees with my post about doulas.

Reston Virginia hospital did ban doulas in 2005 after several incidents of interference and some other hospitals in the country have also offically banned doulas. So yes, some hospitals have banned doulas on an offical basis.

Leigh Ann said...

I thought I read the PCC had gotten accredited. There are several schools out there where the Duggar girls would be happy. And boys, too. The boys don't fare any better. Josh wants to go to law school. That's not going to happen. He doesn't have a bachelor's so he'd have to start at the beginning. If he and Anna had only two kids and no immediate plans for more and she worked they could probably swing it, lots of people with kids manage to go to school. But if they're going to have a baby every two years it's going to be more and more mouths to feed. Anna's not "allowed" to work and even if she were, she only has a high school education, that's not going to provide a job that makes much money. On the Duggar website, oen of the little boys says for his future plans he wants to "cure cancer". None of these kids are going to be able to go to medical school. There's such a rush to get married and start having babies. That's OK if you're in an insular, self-supporting community like the Amish but these families aren't. And Amish young people have the choice to leave, it's a hard to choice, but it is a choice, and their families aren't nearly as big, either. The average Amish family is eight kids, any one ever figured out what the average quiverfull family is?

Elspeth said...

Anna actually has a four year probably correspondence degree.

Leigh Ann said...

Oh, wow. What's her degree in? Although generally as long as you have one in something it doesn't always matter what. Good that someone has some education, it may come in handy one day. But I still think the boys are just as stuck as the girls.

Carolyn Bassett said...

PCC is accredited now, West Coast, and Crown College would be acceptable choices for Duggar kids.

Faith said...

Did anyone see the video of Priscilla and Anna talking about growing up together in a house with 5 girls? Thoughts? I found the difference between the way Anna and Priscilla spoke to be very striking. Anna sounds pretty normal, but Priscilla's speech (pitch & cadence) is very different.

Leigh Ann said...

There are lots of places these kids could go but they might talk to a boy so I guess that's out. Isn't Crown College where the one Bates girl is studying music? She's able to go to college. Yeah, she has to have a chaperone but at least she's getting out and being around a few people. I'm really surprised there aren't any single-sex fundamentalist schools like that. But most normal (as in not Gothard) fundamentalist parents want their kids to meet someone of a like mind and get married and college is usually a good place for that.

Willow said...

Faith - I agree about Anna and Priscilla's speaking voices. It doesn't seem like Anna tries to alter her voice (thank goodness) but to me it seems Priscilla does. It seems like she is falsely holding her mouth open when she speaks, in order to get the "little girl" sound. It reminds me of a person who eats with their mouth open. Don't mean to be rude, but just adding to the opinions. I didn't notice Priscilla doing that prior to her marriage.

Elvira said...

It's just my opinion, but I went back and viewed the first couple of Priscilla's appearances on the show and I think she's always spoken oddly.

MandySue said...

About meeting someone in college- I have a friend in a baptist college. They have a saying there: a ring by spring.

If the girls left then Jim Bo. Wouldn't be able to pick their mates. He couldn't make them promise to leave the number of children up to God before they even started courting.

Stephanie said...

I saw the Video of Anna and Priscilla and yes Priscilla tries the baby talk. While Anna, Priscilla, Jill, and Michelle do the eyebrows raised/wrinkled forehead while talking look. My daughter and her middle school girlfriends have gotten in a bad habit of making what I call "facebook face" (I can't even describe it but its this Michelle Duggar eyebrow trying to be cute face?)

They do it so much they don't even realize they are doing it. It's not cute. The Gothardettes are doing the same "I'm so cute" facials. They may as well be on FB.

Back to the video. Where they sitting on top of a top bunk? because the ceiling was so low.

Josh please come to your senses and reflect. Josh has never been in shape and it will take him longer to get some muscle tone than if he were getting back into shape. He couldn't even run properly. I agree with above poster that Michelle needs to add P.E. to her Homeschooling.

Allison said...

I think Priscilla has always spoken like that, but one thing I sort of picked up on is that maybe she has a lisp. She says her s's kind of strangely. So she might actually have some sort of mild speech impediment that she's trying to compensate for.

Leigh Ann said...

"About meeting someone in college- I have a friend in a baptist college. They have a saying there: a ring by spring."

Funny. I went to a Baptist college and lots of people got married but I don't think anymore than at any other school, though. But I know at other schools, the whole idea seems to be to go to meet "a nice preacher boy". If you accidentally end up getting an education, too, well, that's just a bonus! If Jim Bob is going to be so particular, they might as well just go to arranged marriages. It'd be quicker and less painful if he's going to reject a bunch of people.

zebracrossings said...

I was on a Baptist campus once and saw young women wearing a t-shirts that said: "We didn't come to college to find a husband; we came to college to find our bridesmaids."
If non-duggarite women could proclaim this...why couldn't a Duggar woman do the same. Enjoy your girlfriends while you can! Go to college to get an education and let the Lord work out who you meet and when!!

Duggar Fan but Losing Interest said...

Someone posted a comment on Michelle's 1980s hair. I recently discovered "Perfect Strangers" on a channel that plays old reruns. While I was watching one episode (circa 1987), my 7-year-old niece walked by the TV and pointed to a brunette with long hair & poofy bangs. THen she asked "Is that Mrs. Duggar?" So, I explained to her that it was the style back in the 1980s to have big hair like that. "Then why does her hair look like that now? The 1980s was a LONG time ago." Good question!

MandySue said...

Really the Duggars don't seem to have friends outside a few like minded families. They miss out on learning from different perceptives and being friends with a person who has different opinions than you. Finding someone that can be your family but has none your blood running through their veins.

That is what college and adulthood is about.

Willow said...

The thing about the "modest",or whatever, hair is not new. I am in between Mary Duggar and Michelle Duggar, age-wise. When I was growing up (late 60's, early 70's), we wore a different type of big hair. Very ratted up high OR long and straight surfer look. The fundamentalist women of that day could have chosen either style, but they ALL wore the ratted up high (the highest of everyone) with the little swirly curls all over. No makeup, very plain polyester dresses (A few wore the long skirts, but not all), but they all had the extreme hair styles - all the same. They want attention and want to look nice, but I guess they just want to be so different. I guess I will never understand why they have to draw attention to themselves. A lady can dress nice and modest without drawing attention. It can be done. They say they don't want to draw attention, but they do - very much so.

Nancy said...

Josh just posted some instagram pics. The entire Josh Duggar family is back in DC this weekend. I don't think it has to do with that job he supposedly interviewed for a while ago; why bring the entire family (especially with a wife about 6 weeks from her due date) unless there is a monetary incentive in it for him?

Does TLC still have that DC Cupcakes show? One of the pictures was taken there, a second a the National Zoo. Sounds more TLC-centered than for his "career." I also noticed that on his IG account, he took off the part that said "Work: CARS!" I guess he finally realized that everyone knows that he's frontin' where that car lot is concerned. His real work is "TLC famewhore."

February said...

I gave in and watched the show and have found that Josh and Anna are more annoying than ever. Although Anna has obviously improved her speaking skills, all I here from her is "and" and "aanndd" and "and". Please Anna - stop using the word "and". I noticed that some other Duggar girls are picking it up as well. Anna alone is enough for me to stop watching the show. I have to mute her.

February said...

I have some issues with the show I have to get off my chest. This show and this family are not even close to the humble family they portrayed years ago. I don't appreciate Josh trying to influence the political world with his limited education. Josh, try taking some economic and political science courses at a REAL school. Get your wife some public speaking classes. Also, these are really not well behaved kids. They are hyper and critical of everything not Duggar. When I watch this show I can feel their contempt for me and my values.

sandi said...

I tend to think Jim Bob was the one with the idea to get them into the whole Gothard movement.For starters,I think it had to do with the fact he didn't like Michelle wearing pants,and wanted her to dress even more conservativly than that.Recall that it was only after she met Jim Bob that she stoppec cheerleading.JMO.

Andrea said...

I totally agree. TLC We're not interested in Josh and Anne. We wanted to know what the rest of the 18 and doing. College, dating, traveling, hobbies, etc. please no more trips to the dentist thank you!

Slightly freaked out said...

I'm not sure if anyone else saw the tweet on Josh's twitter account the other day with the agenda for the ATI conference in Texas this week. One of the sessions is entitled "The Hidden Dangers of Higher Education" given by none other than Gothard himself. Yikes!

Rudy Tecat said...

If you go to the ATI Conference website and download the conference guide, you'll notice JB&M are doing one of the big talks (on five relationships of your teen), and the four older Duggar girls are shown and identified. I also noticed that uniforms are required among the different children's seminars, and either dress shoes or sneakers are required....what, no flip flops?

Nancy said...

Well, TLC did a very good job of getting them back to AR to do 20 loads of laundry to get on the bus yesterday in order to be in Big Sandy by today (verified by Josh's IG).

I wonder, what with his "diet" and all (bragged about only having one cupcake at DC Cupcakes over the weekend) considering he and Anna will certainly get all glazy-eyed when they walk by the concession stand where they met, and can't avoid because it's situated right outside the campgrounds.

Patrice said...

Gothard will have a field day with that topic. "The Dangers of Higher Education" are this: You may actually learn that there is life outside of your parents' home. You may develop critical thinking skills and realize what an idiot Gothard is. You may meet people of different faiths, colors, nationalities, genders and actually make friends with them. You may learn that God also loves gay people, Catholics, Democrats, people of all kinds whom you like to put down, not just Gothard followers. You may learn a skill that does not fall into the category of midwife, laborer at your own business, photographer, or person who thinks he or she is a musician.
You may finally figure out that your parents have really ripped you off all these years by sheltering you and teaching you that all other people are evil and beneath you. You may find out that you could have been dating, learning from REAL books, and having fun in all the years which are now gone and you will never get back. If you are a woman, you will realize that you have not been struck down for cutting your hair into a cute modern style, and that jeans are about as comfy of clothing as you can get and you are still in God's good graces for wearing them. If you are a man you will realize that women are not just put on earth to be at your beck and call, and birth your babies. There is so much more that Gothard could tell us about. I only hope that people can see through his BS. Maybe it will help someone escape the cult.

Penny said...

Looking at the episode where Jessa and Jinger volunteered at the coffee shop. When the family showed up, Mackenyze and Michael were with them but I did not see Anna nor Josh. That might have been the time Anna and Josh were in DC involved in the pro life march. Also the party and send off for Joseph-saw Michael but not his parents. The recent trip to DC posted on his instragam, may have to do with his potential job there-they had to take the kids with them because the other Duggars had gone to Florida for a speaking engagement. Why would Josh go on a vacation to DC right before going to ATI conference in Texas. But I guess if you have the money.

Andrea said...

I notice Josh hasn't posed anything to Instagram since arriving in Texas. I wonder if there is so sort of Gothard social media rule preventing him from posting photos of this cult event? Seems weird for someone who is always positing photos to suddenly not be posting anything.

Elspeth said...

Josh has posted pictures from previous Big Sandy gatherings hasn't he? I remember some pictures of Jim Bob with Gil Bates in particular. Perhaps those caused a rule change?

Sharla said...

Dear "anonymous" you queried why your comments usually did not go through. We request that you select a screen name and use the same one so people can get to know you.

Murphy said...

Saying higher education could have dangers is pretty reckless and irresponsible

MandySue said...

Saying higher education could have dangers is pretty reckless and irresponsible
------------------

Considering that Gothard himself went to Weaton College. He wants to keep his followers uneducated and dependent on him for information.

Nancy said...

[The coffee shop taping] might have been the time Anna and Josh were in DC involved in the pro life march.

No, Josh posted pics from the coffee shop on his Instagram. I imagine that since this was not a Josh-centric episode (ie. no paycheck), he was asked to stay off-screen and let his his sisters get some screen time.

I''m curious about what kind of braces Michelle is getting. Her teeth already look TV-ready (unlike JB's, all yellow), like she got a set of dentures already. Pregnancy does a number on your teeth; given she has obvious osteoperosis, why on earth is she (supposedly) getting braces? Is this all TLC has left (probably planned before the ratings for the last couple of weeks came in).

Just cancel the show and have specials once JB decides to let one of his speshul snowflakes fly the coop (and his control).

Sharla said...

In one of the TLC clips Michelle said she had Invisilign and it showed the box with her putting on the allegedly first set.