How We See Things Differently by Anonymous

Normally this kind of comment would not go through as it's a perfect example of "boards on boards." However, since the show is on hiatus, this may be a reasonable time to talk about why people see things differently. Please remember to be respectful of other commenters and their right to disagree or have different opinions.


I know some feel that various negative comments re the Duggars is "nit picking." I feel compelled to point out that if a person, or couple in this case, choose to hold themselves out as a very public example of how people should behave, then they must take the good with the bad.

The Duggars take money (quite a bit of money) for TLC to film their lives and present them to a television audience. They say they do this as part of their ministry. Some agree. Others, like myself, call it very convenient.

You never saw Mother Teresa on a reality tv show. She lived what she preached; i.e., in near poverty level, right down among those she was trying to help. I did not agree 100% with Mother Teresa's beliefs or philosophy, but I respected her deeply for truly living her convictions, without need for publicity or public affirmation. She truly exhibited modesty in all she did. (I also never heard of her once handing out pictures of herself to strangers, or signing a Bible. Maybe she did and I just missed hearing about it.)

By putting themselves into the public eye and accepting large monetary payments to do so, Mr. and Mrs. Duggar opened themselves up to all eyes, whether they be accepting and approving, critical and disapproving, or somewhere in between.

I fully support anyone's right to comment about how they perceive the Duggars. I would ask that others respect my right to post my own thoughts whether you find them nit-picky or not. Thank you :)

(Anonymous)

50 comments:

Judy said...

I completely agree.

bonehead said...

I agree with you 100%. I also see the Duggars on the religious cult side as well. Being a somewhat free thinker/modern woman(old fashion on some things, liberal on others)I am totally wigged out about how the women in this family are treated. Especially, by the knowledge we all have of the parents back ground, and this being modern times. Not to encourage a young woman and girls to be all they can be, is wrong. It's got nothing to do with women's lib. That's why I see them as more cult. Keep the women barefoot and pregnant and sub-servant to man. And Hide behind God. Is that not breaking a commandment. It does anger me when Michelle gets on her soap-box and says what a wonderful Mother I am, see I do take care of my kids, do chores. What when the camera is on you? Your daughters, do all of the work and child raising. Gee Michelle, did you do anything like that when you were their age? No, you were a Cheerleader and dating lots of boys before you met JBD. Then one day found God again. Michelle, God has always been there and with you, you chose to ignore him then. JMO

Anonymous said...

On this blog, I hear so much negativity, and also, lots of positivity. I feel that each person has the right to their own views and opinions, but I know there are reasons behind all of these strong opinions.

Positive comments: I believe these people are true believers in God, or have a very respectful, generous spirit. Perhaps they share a similar life-style to the Duggar family.

I think all of the negative comments are more along the lines of pity, or even possible envy. Or maybe they share a very opposite standards from the Duggar family. These people may be more "modest", and not like how the parents are putting their children in the public eye exposed to critisism.

The inbetween-ers:
I think people that give "inbetween" comments are very open-minded and not judging.

I myself, have an inbetween outlook on the Duggar family. I like the values they share, and the way they believe and worship God. What I don't like is the lack of modesty and privacy. I like watching them, and find them very interesting, but they share too much. (Conception dates, births, funerals, etc.). But, overall, they are a great family.

Iliketheduggars said...

I totally agree with your right to post nit-picky things. I also think for those of us who don't care for the nit-picking, the best thing to do is skip those particular posts.

However, here are some reasons why I get very weary of the no-win-for-the-Duggars micro-critiquing:

1. Negativity wears me down. It wears ANYBODY down. While it is helpful to constructively acknowledge a problem and then search for a solution, there is nothing helpful (for most of us) about constantly indulging in negative criticism and belittling of other people, particularly if --

2. -- there is no way to counter the negativity with a solution. For example, I was a faithful GWOP reader for many months because I felt that all the information and venting was helping people know the truth about the Gosselins, with all the resulting consequences, and spurring advocacy and legislation for the Gosselins and all reality-TV kids.

But there isn't the same kind of advocacy and action on this board, because --

3. -- in the case of the Duggars, there really isn't much of anything to solve. They aren't that bad. Although the show is scripted and we see only what they want us to see, there isn't the dramatic disconnect between reality and reality-TV that the Gosselins tried to feed us. And while we can disagree all we want with their lifestyle, do we really want to tell others how to live? Or have others tell US how to live? Of course not.

4. IRL, I am often aggravated to hear fellow Christians talk about their "persecution." I just don't see it. IMO, we have it pretty cushy as a religion in America, and I often agree when ultra-conservative Christians are painted as more judgmental and intolerant than the general population.

But... the constant nit-picking on this board has me rethinking that. Maybe my own insulated world is more tolerant toward Christians than the country in general. There has been an awful lot of nasty intolerance over a family's religious beliefs, regardless of the health of happiness of the members involved.

5. So why bother reading here at all? In truth, I don't like kids on reality TV, and I don't have blind faith that the Duggars can continue to make it work. I do want to watch for problems. I want to be an advocate for those kids, should the need arise. From what I've seen, I like the family, but I always want to keep an open mind to the good AND the bad that can accompany their way of life and their television "career." And the Without Pity boards have seemed to offer the best avenue in which to do that.

Just another point of view.

Anonymous said...

I think judging a country's level of tolerance of a religion by the judgements passed on the Duggar family isn't really a sound way to decide whether or not Christians are persecuted. It's pulling from a small subset of people who are all interested in the Duggars (Christian family) -- either people here are going to be in favor of them, or they aren't, but either way, making that decision that Christians might be more persecuted than one thought based on the ideas of the subset isn't really statistically sound. It's pulling from a group of people with a common interest, so their judgements about that interest aren't going to be across the board the way they would be if people were polled on their thoughts on Christianity on a broader cultural scope.

*ramble*

Anonymous said...

Well said, Anonymous.

I always laugh when I read the pro-Duggar commenters who seem to think anti-Duggar comments are symptomatic of people seeing what they WANT to see, that is, we WANT to view the Duggars through some kind of fun-house mirror that transforms Duggar holiness into images of hypocrisy, ridiculous lack of education (and proud of it for some unfathomable reason), Patriarchy, and greed veiled with claims of wanting to 'encourage' for gawd.


The Duggar lifestyle/behaviors is what it is. While some find the Duggars to 'walk the walk', the rest of us wonder WHY the Duggar 'walk' is supposed to be so morally superior.

To some of us, from what we are shown on tv, the Duggars spend way too much time on silliness, considering this silliness moral superiority: Nike!, unbridled birthing, long skirts, home schooling, fighting choice in family size limitations and alcohol consumption to name just a few.

All the while, week after week we are shown JB's enormous Patriarchal ego, M's being more of a little girl than a strong and independent womanly role model, and the both of them selling out their kids as an easy way to make $$$$.

To each their own moral compass. But according to my own, the Duggars fall far short on living life in ways that actually MATTER morally speaking.

Anonymous said...

I seriously doubt there'd be such a level of negative feelings towards the Duggars if they did not make such a big deal about how hard they try to be holy. Being what the super-conservatives seem to consider 'holy' is the entire Duggar brand in a nutshell.

Let the Duggars live on their little cult domain in Arkansas. No problem. But spare me a tv show that attempts to portray them as The Holiest Possible Way to Be a Family. And spare me all the Duggar comments about how 'other people do THIS, but WE ... and it is ALWAYS a comparison meant to imply the Duggar way is, by definition, morally superior.

Hypocrisy, judgmentalness of those in the real world who do not choose to be ultra conservative religiously, attempting to legislate so as to limit EVERYONE's rights according to their own personal belief system, being proponents of a lack of education.... all good reasons for negative feelings towards how the Duggars project themselves on TV at least IMO.

Celestie said...

I think all of the negative comments are more along the lines of pity, or even possible envy.

_____
I think everyone brings their own beliefs and life experiences to their views on this TV show or any other. To say, that people who do not admire the Duggars treatment of their children, especially the girls, are envious or pitying is disingenuous. Posters mention the problems with their own marriages, own upbringing, own religious questions, own debt and how the Duggars are so much better. Well, yes they are, no question about it, for people who have unresolved marital, religious, financial or other personal struggles. The Duggars have been married to only each other, they found a religion, (or cult) or lifestyle, that works for them, they are raising and educating their children in a way that allows them not to be question by the children. For some who are troubled, this must feel very stabilizing to see a simple unquestioned life can be achieved by the Duggars and by extension by themselves.
To me there is a sadness, when I see people almost worshipping these people. I cannot help but feel they are being used. The Duggars are profiting from other peoples' unhappiness. But on the other hand, it could be said the Duggar TV show is fulfilling a need in those people. "I can't have all these things, but look, that life can be achieved, if I admire them."
For others of us, who have long stable marriages, good relations with family and friends, at peace with religious preferences, (not to mention dressing modestly-lol) we can question, what is really going on with this family. Why they have chosen to sell their children's lives for money; why they treat their daughters as unpaid help and hinder their growth as humans; why the boys are urged into low paying jobs instead of working toward their goals; why take the away the dignity of a relative who is dying, or giving birth?

I don't take this whole thing all that seriously. It is a diversion for a few minutes a day. The Duggars are onTV doing their thing, and I'm taking a break from my work. And so it goes.

Alice said...

I think the Duggars were/are naive enough to think they might be an encouragement to many people, and in the process might answer questions they often receive about how they manage (and so well) such a large family. And why their children are so happy and capable.

Perhaps they failed to foresee the control the network would have over the 30 minutes of material, or the ridiculous way they are sometimes portrayed. No doubt they've had some moments of regret, but continue to behave with dignity and good humor in the face of criticism, much of it harsh and undeserving.

Thanks for acknowledging anyone's "right" to comment. How we exercise that right, for good or evil, is very telling.

Anonymous said...

@Celestie: I like your comment alot.

I also factor in that the Duggars, like every other 'reality' family, is a carefully crafted BRAND, and, so, I do not take a whole lot of the Duggar show seriously.

I do, however, very much mind that the Duggars seem to want to legislate everyone ELSE to be in line with the Duggar belief system. I find THIS very judgmental and holier than thou, and I do not take kindly to someone else attempting to limit my own personal freedoms to be in alignment with their own personal beliefs.

Anonymous said...

I do not like at all the way the Duggars seem to promote the thought that those outside their personal tight little religious beliefs (those who live in the real world and not on a Duggar compound) are to be feared and avoided so as not to water down the Duggar holiness. What ego! What judgment! And some wonder why the Duggars are disliked and not respected?

Cyn said...

I personally think the differences are what make this board interesting.

Where as some see the Duggars as portraying a morally superior lifestyle, I happen to see a family trying to live up to their views of what the bible says is a moral and God centered life.

I see them fail, get up and try again. I see them stumble, struggle and all the other things ones does in trying to live this particular life style.

As to the negative comments, as another poster stated.. sometimes I just have to pass it by and keep going. I'm not here to try and change any ones mind about the Duggars, nor am I here to be a 'staunch supporter' of them.

I simply come to this site to try and keep facts straight, opinions on the other hand, I can't nor do I want to change. Every one has their own opinion and it's their God and country given right to express them, without them we would all be mindless robots. This site also keeps me on my toes doing research on lots of different topics which actually helped me land my current job.

mythoughtis said...

I also agree that the Duggars have opened the door to criticism and comments, since they are making money off the show.
My only disagreement is that I wish some posters could be more civil about either side of the discussion. Words to posters such as moron, liar, etc, don't add to the discussion. Generalizations such as all modern teenagers are morally bankrupt don't add much either.

NOT an Atheist said...

"I personally think the differences are what make this board interesting.

Where as some see the Duggars as portraying a morally superior lifestyle, I happen to see a family trying to live up to their views of what the bible says is a moral and God centered life."

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I agree: it is the discussion, the debate that makes this board at all interesting. If it were simply a fan site, I'd go boringly on my way. I enjoy the conversation and differing points of view.

I have no personal problem with the Duggars living as THEY believe is an ethical way.

I do, however, get very tired of their apparent belief that THEIR lifestyle is, by definition, holier than those who are less conservative.

I do not see the Duggars try any harder, stumble any more or less, get up any more or less often than any of the rest of us. I just wish the Duggar conservative fan base had SOME concept that MOST of us try every bit as hard as the Duggars to live up to our own personal code of ethics, and we do not believe the non stop births, attire, home schooling, Patriarchy, etc. are all that ethically superior.

I'm sure the Duggars would be aghast at this thought, but truth is, atheists can be extremely ethical people. Religious and political conservatism is not necessarily the epitome of morality, though some right wingers seem to think it is so.

I admire almost anyone who tries hard to live according to their own code of ethics.

Where it turns to disgust and disdain for me is when people take it to the next level by assuming everyone who does NOT abide by THEIR code is less moral than they.

Anonymous said...

When I was a child in a devoutly Catholic family and schools, I was told horrific and bloody stories about how the christians have been persecuted all throughout time.

As a child yet unable to comprehend and evaluate ethical issues, I wondered WHY anyone would have negative feelings at all towards christians.

Now that I'm an adult, I can use the Duggars as my best example of why some christians have been disliked all through time. It was not that everyone else was 'pagan' and wanting to try to lead christians astray. Rather, it was because the super conservative christians seem to have a propensity all through history, to hold themselves up as morally superior AND attempt to evangelize everyone to the 'christian' way of thinking, which, in itself shows a complete lack of respect for any other spiritual belief system.

IF the christians were, in fact, persecuted all through history, NOW I understand why some christians have evoked in others such negative feelings.

Anonymous said...

We must realize that extreme like or dislike for the Duggar family is not reasonable. No one can judge another family if you only see a very small fraction of their life. Looks can be decieving...

winsomeone said...

I really used to like watching the Duggars. Then, one day, it struck me that they seemed almost cult like and I didn't like that. But, when they became a bit more "worldly," that didn't suit me either. I think what happened in my case, is that I just got bored with watching them do the same old things, show after show..it's like with relatives that over stay their visit. At first everyone is glad to see them, but become less charmed with them if the visit is extended overly long. Plus, I sometimes tend to forget that it's just a scripted TV show, and not real life. They are actors, nothing more, nothing less!

Anonymously Yours said...

JMO: I have serious doubts that what we see on TV is an accurate depiction of ANY family involved in a 'reality' show. We are shown various BRANDS and the branding becomes more and more clearly defined and scripted with every tv season.

That said, though we'll never know for sure, because these are actors acting out their assigned BRAND, my best guess is that the Duggars are likely decent enough people. Fairly well meaning. No more than that. No less.

I do not see them as morally superior nor inferior, though I will say that they portray themselves in a way that seems judgmental and holier than thou.

They seem, at least as portrayed on tv, not all that intelligent, and oddly proud of their promotion of lack of good education. They appear to be unsophisticated (not in a good way) with a questionable ability to determine tasteful boundaries about what to share with a viewing audience vs. what to keep absolutely personal and private.

I don't see them as any more or less godly than most other people.

I DO, however, question the Duggars, along with every other family on 'reality' programming about their true motives and wonder what makes the Duggars think even 'encouraging' for god somehow makes selling out one's family appropriate and ethical.

Iliketheduggars said...

"Now that I'm an adult, I can use the Duggars as my best example of why some christians have been disliked all through time. It was not that everyone else was 'pagan' and wanting to try to lead christians astray. Rather, it was because the super conservative christians seem to have a propensity all through history, to hold themselves up as morally superior AND attempt to evangelize everyone to the 'christian' way of thinking, which, in itself shows a complete lack of respect for any other spiritual belief system."

--------------------------------

I totally agree that Christians shot themselves in the cross by exhibiting that behavior. I DISAGREE, however, that the DUGGARS live or think that way.

They have extremely conservative beliefs that spur them to shelter their kids from a lot of things and behaviors we find mostly harmless. But I still haven't found where they intentionally shelter them from PEOPLE who do not believe or act as they do.

That's huge, in my opinion. The cameraman's apparently normal teen and tween daughters stayed with the Duggars for what, a month?... and became great friends with the Duggar sisters. They weren't required to dress in prairie clothing or, it appeared, stay locked in the kitchen and laundry room. I didn't notice a bunch of conversion coercions, and doubt girls at that age would have stuck around for that long had there been any.

Doesn't that speak for something?

Iliketheduggars said...

I am completely not getting anywhere with understanding why some people believe the Duggars are so judgmental toward other faiths or lifestyles. Can I have some help? Totally serious here...

In your opinion, would it be possible for the Duggars to maintain their ultra-conservative views and daily lifestyle in such a way that would NOT be considered judgmental and intolerant?

And whether we agree with their decision to do a reality show or not, would it be possible for them to continue filming Duggars and Counting in a way that would NOT be considered judgmental and intolerant?

What would that look like?

Iliketheduggars said...

"I DO, however, question the Duggars, along with every other family on 'reality' programming about their true motives and wonder what makes the Duggars think even 'encouraging' for god somehow makes selling out one's family appropriate and ethical."

I totally agree. I like to think JB doesn't see it as selling out... yet. Of course, the longer it goes on, the harder it is for me to believe that.

Maggie said...

I am really glad Sharla put this up. The moderators do not take sides here and we started this so that everyone could discuss, whatever their opinion.

We enjoy hearing from everyone.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for having a thread like this one, as this issue seems to come up on a regular basis.

I liked the suggestion by one poster that advises ignoring or passing over someone else's negative comment if you find it bothersome. That's very good advice, not just on this blog but all over the internet :)

I agree that the Duggars are most likely fairly nice people, and JimBob seems to truly love his children. I think Michelle has been worn down by having so many, and in a form of self-defense or self-preservation, has had to throw up a wall between herself and the demands of her brood. Perhaps she just doesn't have the strength or endurance anymore to give the children what they all need, so she's handed off the child-rearing and teaching to the older girls, just so she doesn't lose her mind. I find her to be a distant, hands-off mother. (Even when she breastfeeds, she puts the baby under a tent, doesn't make eye contact or hold the little one in her arms, but instead rests the baby on a pillow - it's so odd to me)

I respect those who are fans of the Duggars. Even if I disagree with other's opinions, I try and hope I am successful in being polite and considerate in any response I give.

There is an old saying: "Familiarity breeds contempt." In the case of the Duggars and their tv show, I think that's why there is more and more snark about them. They deserve much of it, especially for overworking their older daughters, and for selling their family to make money. Any family considering a reality tv show would do well to pay close attention to what happens to those that already have one. In my opinion, the bad far outweighs the good. I hope for the Duggars sake, they wake up and realize that the longer they continue to put themselves under a microscope, the broader and louder will be the criticism.

As to being persecuted for religious beliefs - I think we Americans are so spoiled by the wonderful freedom we have, we have no idea what real religious persecution is. Compared with having millions of people rounded up and sent to death camps, I think handling a few mean-spirited remarks now and then should be a piece of cake.

Iliketheduggars said...

"As to being persecuted for religious beliefs - I think we Americans are so spoiled by the wonderful freedom we have, we have no idea what real religious persecution is. Compared with having millions of people rounded up and sent to death camps, I think handling a few mean-spirited remarks now and then should be a piece of cake."

That's always been my point with my relatives, too. And indeed, other than a lot of grumbling, there haven't been any real incidents of "persecution" that I'm aware of.

On the other hand, there are a lot more mean-spirited remarks and attitudes than I was aware of. I never really think the Duggars warrant so many of them. Of course, I have known a LOT of fundie families who are far, far worse, so maybe that's why the Duggars seem like a breath of fresh air... Wow look, they smile! Wow, they actually speak to us heathens! Wow, their kids aren't wearing perpetual frowns or required to adhere to military discipline and silence!

nccalgal said...

I consider myself a middle of the roader and often wonder to myself how a poster could have construed some point from either another post or from an episode that aired. Like Cyn, I find the wide range of opinions interesting and stimulating, but I am bothered when opinion or conjecture is stated as fact or the same subjects get hashed and rehashed. If you're stating your opinion, make sure it's plain that it's not fact (G-ma Duggar has been forced to move in so she can take over when the older girls marry), and if you have "proof", it would help if the source is cited. I know that sounds like high school requirements, but IMO, that would keep some of the sniping out of it.

Cyn said...

Iliketheduggars... I have some of those fundies as relatives... that may be why I too think the Duggars are a breath of fresh air.
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I do not see the Duggars try any harder, stumble any more or less, get up any more or less often than any of the rest of us. I just wish the Duggar conservative fan base had SOME concept that MOST of us try every bit as hard as the Duggars to live up to our own personal code of ethics, and we do not believe the non stop births, attire, home schooling, Patriarchy, etc. are all that ethically superior.

**********************

I understand that others try as well, but the blog is about the Duggars so I was simply talking about the Duggars.

As a Duggar fan I could cheerfully reach out and shake them some days, other days yank that child down out of the cherry picker, and away from that tile saw till I put safety glasses on them, a hair tie, and a harness (for the cherry picker).

At the same time I don't see the Duggars themselves trying to show they are better than the rest of us, just different, I think TLC with the scripted shots, and the pop ups are trying to show them as morally superior simply because it does create the drama.

Not sure about this board but I do know people that watch the show because, as they put it, it's like watching a train wreck, you can't pull your eyes away. They can't wait for the Duggars to misstep from what the viewer thinks they should be doing in order to pounce on them for it. Others watch it so they can see their idols come down from on high to pass on wisdom. BOTH extremes frankly scare me, people in the middle don't bother me simply because it's nice to read other viewpoints and see how people in general react to them...

As I said to Iliketheduggars above, I have relatives though that make the Duggars look like main street America and that may be what colors the glasses I watch the Duggars with. First eye roll out of Jinger would have had her out behind the woodshed, first interruption from the little boy not wanting to get his work would have been a trip to the woodshed, the modesty bathing suits show to much for the women, and the t-shirts would never have been allowed, nor the flip flops. The women walk 2-3 steps behind the men with their eyes down, and heaven forbid the women even think of saying no to the man (Michelle flat out told JimBob no on the helicopter). These people are alive and well today too, not 100 years ago. Unlike the Duggars hell fire and brimstone is a constant companion of these relatives, and simply LOOKING like you want to question the pastor can and does get you taken to the woodshed.

For all the ways the Duggars could have been, I for one am thankful for the way they are on and off the camera.

MWM said...

The problem with providing "proof" when posting a comment is that even the proof is met by Duggar-fans with protests of...."BUT we don't see everything in their lives".

I've previously posted comments about the outrageous behavior of the younger children, and included links to video clips from the show. My comment was met with protests of, "but that's just editing!" or "you're nit-picking!".

Just sayin' that even with visual proof, some Duggar fans still won't believe the Duggars are far from perfect.

(And yes, the Duggars themselves have said they aren't perfect, but many fans hold them up to be just that).

Celestie said...

I do not see the Duggars try any harder, stumble any more or less, get up any more or less often than any of the rest of us. I just wish the Duggar conservative fan base had SOME concept that MOST of us try every bit as hard as the Duggars to live up to our own personal code of ethics, and we do not believe the non stop births, attire, home schooling, Patriarchy, etc. are all that ethically superior.

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I loved this comment, because it is so true. It seems many people look at the world in black or white. Duggars are good, people who are critical of them must be bad.

Celestie said...

The problem with providing "proof" when posting a comment is that even the proof is met by Duggar-fans with protests of...."BUT we don't see everything in their live

____
The super fans can post anything they want, without proof, other than "its in the their book, or on their website." Anyone can write anything they want in a book or website. Their books and their website are part of the BRAND that they are selling. I don't know how you prove anything, outside a court of law.
I do know rumors run rampant about Reality TV folks, some is true, some is not. No one has to prove anything. Each of us will see what we see and draw our own conclusions. Others can argue or discuss, but doubt any one can PROVE anything.

bonehead said...

I also think that the Duggars should get rid of the person who does the editing. Like someone here pointed out that JB is made to look not to be too smart. The kids run amok and do dangerous things. If I were a parent I for one would not want people to see that. Or hey this is how you treat girls and young adults, like your talking to 10 year olds. What is put on TV is what people will believe and remember. They can do all the good things, be Godly, but what is put on TV is what people will believe is who they are. It's like that Vic guy who was dog fighting, even if he never does it again or gives all his money to charity, does good the rest of his life, the only thing he will be remembered for is dog fighting. Same with the Duggars, whatever they do on TV is what is gonna be remembered. Same with that other one Jon & Kate +8. That is something that will haunt them.

Anonymous said...

The Duggars can do whatever the heck they please. The problem is, they put themselves out there as some sort of conservative Christian role model, and models for gigantic families. As such, we can say whatever we think about them. It's America.

Anonymous said...

I also think that the Duggars should get rid of the person who does the editing. Like someone here pointed out that JB is made to look not to be too smart.
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Have you considered the possibility that TLC's editing is actually possibly making JB seem smarter than he actually is? If it's possible for editing to be the reason JB looks dumb, then it's equally possible the opposite is true: that JB is far from college material and the TLC editing is his best friend on this score. I see nothing that tells me JB is a smart man. By any measure. His actions, his belief system which seems nonsensical IMO, his absolute inability to speak wisely and articulately.

As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does." IMO the cameras are likely doing their best to cover up even more stupidity than we see.

My personal take is that JB is actually too dumb to realize just how dumb he is, so that plus his almighty Patriarchal ego will likely keep him from ever realizing any haunting.

JMO.

Anonymous said...

@Cyn: You must dread your family reunions! YIKES.

WHY live in America if willing to have so many rights taken is my question. HOW are people kept from just refusing to go along with this ridiculousness? Seriously, I mean no insult, it's a sincere question. Is it like women who are too afraid to leave an abusive spouse - is it this kind of fear that keeps people willing to put up with such violence (woodshed trips) and females being treated like 3rd class citizens? I realize that some are raised this way, but how is it possible for them NOT to realize there are other options and they can, albeit with much strength and courage and perseverance, break free from this kind of tyranny.

And considering this behavior 'godly', well, wow, just WOW.

bobehead said...

Stupid is as stupid does granted. But JB is a lot smarter than we think and how he is shown. He got a TV show, got them to pay for the house to be finished, pay for trips, and all sorts of other stuff, and stayed out of debt. I would not call that a stupid person, by any means. There are people out there who can't pay their bills, losing their houses, etc who went to college, lived over their means, and some are homeless, not to mention jobless. My Mother never finished highschool, but you know, she was a wiz at finances. God, if I could have half of that understanding she had, I'd be rich. The thing is with JB probably does not even looks at the finished filming, before it is put on TV and he does not think before he talks. If he did he might not agree with what the family is tryin to portray themselves as. I think he has too much faith in TLC to make that decision. If it were me I wouldn't trust anyone to make a decision that will come in time back to bite me. You guys are right the Duggars are turning off people. It's almost do as I say, not as I am doing.

Anonymous said...

"Stupid is as stupid does granted. But JB is a lot smarter than we think and how he is shown. He got a TV show, got them to pay for the house to be finished, pay for trips, and all sorts of other stuff, and stayed out of debt. I would not call that a stupid person.....The thing is with JB probably does not even looks at the finished filming, before it is put on TV and he does not think before he talks. If he did he might not agree with what the family is tryin to portray themselves as. I think he has too much faith in TLC to make that decision."

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IMO, what you describe involves more luck/being at the right place at the right time than intelligence. JMO.

Your mom sounds like a smart cookie!

As you note, JB has made some dumb decisions IF he has given TLC the control you describe. Which brings us right back to the 'stupid is as stupid does'.

Can't See Sheep said...

Anonymous said...
Have you considered the possibility that TLC's editing is actually possibly making JB seem smarter than he actually is? If it's possible for editing to be the reason JB looks dumb, then it's equally possible the opposite is true: that JB is far from college material and the TLC editing is his best friend on this score.
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I found it interesting back when posters would post on Gosselin sites that kate was an ill tempered, negative person who was abusive to her husband & children. There was once a lot of posters who said no, it was TLC editing, that we were only seeing a small part of her life. Where are we a couple years down the road, well, we've found out that what we were seeing of kate was kate, there was no great misunderstood Garbo mystery, she's unpleasant & abusive, just like we saw in the episodes. IMO it's the same here.

Anonymous said...

Don't know if this is ok to ask/post, but I would like to understand how women like M. Duggar are able to go along with such concepts, not only for themselves but for their daughters, such things as Patriarchy, defrauding, and unlimited family size. This is not at all met to be snarky comment - I would genuinely like to try to understand how my own gender can go along with such ideas.

CappuccinoLife said...

I think this has been an interesting conversation. IMO, we all bring our biases and experiences to the table, which color our perceptions of the Duggars. Everyone uses different language in the way they express themselves, which can also contribute to different perceptions.

For instance, "Nike". Some mention the Duggar's *yelling* "nike", and express it in such a way that it sounds like they'd be *yelling* the word non-stop every time they go out. I have watched the show, and certainly never seen them yelling the word, nor actually heard it at all except in a conversational discussion or their beliefs about purity. I have a hard time visualizing them *yelling* it. From their explanation, it is not so much about the women and what they're wearing but about the man/boy who may be having difficulty maintaining what they believe is appropriate "composure" and purity.

Or "hermit like existance" which has also been criticized. While they still homeschool, they can hardly be accused of being hermits anymore, or not exposing their children to the outside world or families that don't look exactly like them. They work with and relate to non-ATI people on a very regular basis, starting with the camera/sound crew.

As someone who has defended the Duggars, probably the majority of my "passion" for arguing is less to do with the Duggar's and more with the difficulty I have reconciling people stating things as fact that I can only see as conjecture at best. Or with people generalizing, taking one small point and expanding on it or applying it to anyone who might possibly have any similarity to the Duggars.

CappuccinoLife said...

Don't know if this is ok to ask/post, but I would like to understand how women like M. Duggar are able to go along with such concepts, not only for themselves but for their daughters, such things as Patriarchy, defrauding, and unlimited family size.
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Possibly because we just don't see these things the same way you do? ;)


"Patriarchy"--has many meanings. Some are negative. Some not. I wouldn't use the word but "complementarian" fits us as it does the Duggars. I don't find it at all chafing to be in a marriage where my husband and I have differing but complementary roles, based on our understanding of our faith and God's design for us.

"defrauding"--again, no chafing. It's not a woman only thing, or an oppression thing, but a word used to express our beliefs about sexual ethics. I don't know if it's a technically proper word and again not one I'd use myself, but I understand what the Duggar's mean by it--to reserve sexual behavior for marriage, not to take advantage of opportunities outside marriage, and not to cause difficulty for others to uphold these principals by the way we dress or behave.

not limiting family--I have almost given up trying to explain this. The reasons are not simplistic, but the conclusion is drawn together from a number of different threads. It has to do with our beliefs about sex, about children, about when life begins, about creation, about God's role in our lives, about family, and more. Ultimately, we see no need and have no desire to use birth control. We find that not oppressive but freeing.
And for the record, we don't have a baby every year, either. ;)

Anonymous said...

@Cappucino Life: Thanks for your explanation about how females are able to support the concepts of Patriarchy, "Nike," and unlimited family size.

For whatever it's worth, I like your idea of 'complimentarian' partnership in marriage. I can wrap my mind around this far more than the idea that the husband is, by default, the decision maker, the 'decider'.

Anyway, thank you for your explanation.

roddma said...

"I have almost given up trying to explain this. The reasons are not simplistic, but the conclusion is drawn together from a number of different threads. It has to do with our beliefs about sex, about children, about when life begins, about creation, about God's role in our lives, about family, and more. Ultimately, we see no need and have no desire to use birth control. We find that not oppressive but freeing.
And for the record, we don't have a baby every year, either. ;)"
I have given up myself explaining the dangers of this concept. Everyone is entitled to their own choices but sometimes choices have consequences. We all got brains to use. I think the problem occurs when those like the Duggars hold up their 'leaving it up to God' as the best way for everyone. Im not saying the Duggars are like this but those who follow similar beliefs. All other choices aren't Godly. Not everyone can properly care for that many children. At my age I will be lucky to have one, but even younger I couldn't see myself with more than 2-4. Anymore just wouldn't be logical. So birth control is freeing for some. I agree with you on patriarchy. It can take many forms.

I agree with everything the author of this thread says. That is exactly the way I feel.

Nancy said...

This comes directly from the ATI mission blog that Jana and JD participated in this month. It is their cult philosophy in a nutshell and cuts straight to the chase about how I fundamentally disagree with everything the Duggars and ATI stand for.

"Some of us were still having secret darkness in our hearts, and it was protected by pride and defensiveness. We were too used to seeing things in darkness that it hurts to see things in the light of God's truth, THAT is what hinders people from realizing truth. And God also warned us from debating about " GREY " areas, which He said is debating about lukewarmness."

I am a firm believer in gray area; there are almost NO absolutes. Also, doesn't God work THROUGH people, not speak TO them? That sounds really cultish.

Celestie said...

not to take advantage of opportunities outside marriage, and not to cause difficulty for others to uphold these principals by the way we dress or behave.

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I think that is why some of us have a problem with the constant kissing between Michelle and JB, Anna and Josh. I would think it would make the teens, with very active hormones yearn to kiss and more if they are constantly exposed. Seems similar to someone eating candy in front of children and saying no, you can't have any.

Celestie said...

not to take advantage of opportunities outside marriage, and not to cause difficulty for others to uphold these principals by the way we dress or behave.

_____
I think that is why some of us have a problem with the constant kissing between Michelle and JB, Anna and Josh. I would think it would make the teens, with very active hormones yearn to kiss and more if they are constantly exposed. Seems similar to someone eating candy in front of children and saying no, you can't have any.

Beth said...

I do not like Angelina Jolie. I did not, ever, and the way she was part of breaking up a marriage (not solely responsible, but certainly part of such wrong) only cemented that.

And there have been times I have thought she was too much about babies and not enough about raising children--much as has been discussed here. But this is from a forthcoming issue of Vanity Fair, and I wish the Duggar parents would realize this:

The actress, who stars in Salt, out July 23, says she isn't pregnant but is "not opposed to it. "We want to make sure we don't build a family so big that we don't have absolutely enough time to raise them each really well."

I have just one child, would love to have had more but this one was a true gift, laid into my arms by her mother, who could not raise her. And there are times I don't feel my husband and I are giving this one child enough of what she needs, with our work and her school and life itself.

This quote seems to reasonable to me. I wonder why the Duggar parents don't seem to be getting it? Maybe they are, and we are not seeing it, but I don't think so. And it is the children who lose out, in the end.

Alice said...

I would love to see another show on TLC, one with high-functioning, loving, serving teens and happy faced kiddoes who love each other and play happily together, sit down to meals and story times together and raise respectful faces to their parents. Maybe this family could have more mainstream ideas about dress, more conventional mores about family size, and less emphasis on "God's way." Less junk to get in the way of the main thing, which is successful parenting and good living. No mention of "patriarchal roles" and "wifely duties."

Surely this family is out there. I'd love to hear from them.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I do not think it is good to buy shoes that are not new.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"Some of us were still having secret darkness in our hearts, and it was protected by pride and defensiveness. We were too used to seeing things in darkness that it hurts to see things in the light of God's truth, THAT is what hinders people from realizing truth. And God also warned us from debating about " GREY " areas, which He said is debating about lukewarmness."


I do not find the above statement as cultive. I just see it as someone who is very introspective to a fault.

Anonymous said...

JMO: I believe there are many introspective people who would strongly take exception to Gothard's quote.

Gothard's quote implies a basic badness in humans and that to believe people are basically good is somehow sinfully prideful. Seems absurd to me that god would create beings and then WANT them to consider themselves weak and thoroughly, hopelessly flawed, constantly beating their chest about how pathetic and sinful they are.

Dismissing the very real grey areas of life and its dilemmas is to over simplify as if trying to explain to a small child. We LIVE in the grey areas and, IMO, we are called to find our way through using our intellect and ethics.

There is nothing lukewarm about the understanding how grey and undefined life can be. Rather, the grey areas can be growthful, enlightening, and this can spark true passion about life.

Anonymous said...

"And God also warned us from debating about " GREY " areas, which He said is debating about lukewarmness."

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An acceptance of life having its grey areas can hardly be defined as 'lukewarm'. IMO, Mr. Gothard confuses being simply intractable and 'black or white' with being passionate about life and morality.