Free Discussion July 2010

Please use this for Duggar sightings, speculation, or general discussion. Note that this is Duggar discussion not other families, TV shows, or personal stories. If you wish to discuss other TLC shows, please visit TLCwithoutpity.blogspot.com. Thank you!

388 comments:

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Mama in WI said...

Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but I was watching a rerun of "Raising 16 Children" on Discovery Health, and Michelle was pregnant with #16 at the time. She got an ultrasound with all of her kids there, plus the tech and Dr. Sarver. But instead of holding a sheet over her belly for modesty, the people who edited it just fuzzed it out like they fuzz out people's faces on COPS.

It seems like now the Duggars make a big deal about covering up with a sheet. Are they more camera-aware now, and they're aware that America saw Michelle's belly? Did they get in trouble with their peers for being un-modest? It seems like they'd be less shy about showing things like that, not more shy. Thoughts?

Anonymous said...

Mackynzie was born in October. The average amount of time that Michelle has inbetween children is 18 months. (That is because they do not practice birth control). So Mackynzie is now 9 months old. Another 9 months, that being a pregnancy, would bring it up to 18 months. Do you think Anna is pregnant again?

Snap! said...

Mama in WI- watch the ultrasound for no.16 at the end of the episode called- 14 children and pregnant again- on youtube part 5 of 5.
They show the ultrasound and it it not blurred out.
I think alot of what the Duggars do is for show. You are right why are they so concerned with modesty but show this ultrasound and discuss conception dates with their children!

Anonymous said...

The whole modesty thing is all for show...just another way the Duggars proclaim to be better than anyone else. Anyone who watched the show saw a LOT of Michelle as the doctors took Josie from her womb, but a few weeks later, there Michelle was, cooing in her baby voice about how "we can see baby skin but not mommy skin" as she frantically tried to pull her shirt around her....NECK! Yes, Michelle, a neck is a no-no part of the body. Heaven forbid, a male viewer might be led astray and defrauded at the sight of your 43 year old wrinkly bare neck!

Jen said...

I think that seeing yourself in video/on tv can cause you to look at things and yourself and review and change if needed.

I think that is what happened. They looked at themselves and lined things up with their morals/belief.

It seems like they have done this with one of the boys. He had been misbehaving for/on camera. They showed him the tapes/video and discussed it with him off camera.
Later the boy was telling Johanna in an interview what he had learned and about behaving.

Seeing himself and his behavior along with guidance from his parents caused him to review and correct this behavior.

I think that it is great to see change from the old specials to the newer episodes it means they are real humans and are growing. They just get the "privilege" of seeing themselves through other's eyes (this eye just happens to be the camera)

Anonymous said...

Interesting question Mama in WI. I think it might be a combination of things. They were new to being filmed at that time. The fact that they didn't use a sheet when the family and tech were around seems to indicate that they all felt comfortable with this process and seeing Michelle's stomach. Probably not the first ultra sound many of the children had attended.

I have heard that JB supposedly has control over the final version that goes out on the air. This is pure speculation on my part, but perhaps upon final review, he and Michelle agreed that her stomach should not be shown to the general public, so they blurred it out. In future, they made sure to have a privacy drape over her, or ask the cameras to leave the room.

While I think ATI followers must meet some very strict guidelines, I also think the Duggars are the best public face of that movement that Gothard has. I doubt he'd come down hard on them, on the off chance he might alienate them and they decide another sect suits them better. There goes all that free advertising!

Anonymous said...

I think that the reason they are more "modest" and conservative about what they show is because they have branded themselves as ultra conservative christians, and that is their 'schtick' they have to play.

Anonymous said...

Don't know for sure, of course, so this is JMO, but I'm guessing the increased trumpeting of the Duggar 'modesty' is just TLC hyping up the Duggar BRAND.

Anonymous said...

My greatest concern with this family is the lack of privacy and modesty.

I believe that no one should ever share their financial situation and sexual activity to so many unknown people. Whether it be good or bad, these things are private things in a relationship, and you would hope they show their children what is left private for a safe and healthy relationship and family.

Anonymous said...

I don't think that we can "rant" about the Duggars imperfections; they are humans, are they not? All of us have made misktakes, contradicted our own rules, but we learn from them. This is what makes humans human. We realize we are not perfect, but we still strive for the best.

Anonymous said...

Mackynzie was born in October. The average amount of time that Michelle has inbetween children is 18 months. (That is because they do not practice birth control). So Mackynzie is now 9 months old. Another 9 months, that being a pregnancy, would bring it up to 18 months. Do you think Anna is pregnant again?

---------------


For some reason, I don't know why, I have a feeling that Josh and Anna are using some sort of birth control, family planning perhaps?

Anonymous said...

As far as ranting about the Duggars, I think I've probably done that on a few occasions. Most of the time, I just offer my opinions, or am disagreeing with something they've said or done.

However, I do believe that anyone who goes on a reality television show, or is otherwise a person in the public eye, should expect to be under scrutiny. In other words, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. That's why I'm so firmly opposed to minor children being on reality tv. At this time, there are no federal laws in place that protect them (such as limiting their working hours, controlling their working conditions, ensuring that they receive their appropriate and fair share of the income generated by the show, and that they are not being used to support a lifestyle their parents desire but cannot earn for themselves on their own).

This doesn't even take into account their lack of privacy once they become public figures like this, the possible and very real dangers of stalkers, and the unknown potential for emotional harm. So when I do rant on occasion, what usually sparks it is a sense of outrage over children having no real choice in the matter and being placed by their parents right out in the public eye.

Anonymous said...

Just watched the big proposal rerun while cooking dinner..."Will you marry me?"..."Yes"..."Awww"...(Side hug). Vomit. So is she preggo again or not?

Anonymous said...

"Just watched the big proposal rerun while cooking dinner..."Will you marry me?"..."Yes"..."Awww"...(Side hug). Vomit."

**********************************

That was THE most scripted, uncomfortable, UNromantic proposal I've ever seen.

I've seen 6th grade kids show more poise than Josh and Anna.

AWKWARD!

That's but one of the prices paid for keeping kids so insulated from life and its experiences - they enter adulthood ill prepared and childlike (not in a good way, childlike).

I was embarrased for all of them.

Cyn said...

It's like living between a rock and a hard place. If Michelle gets pregnant again the woman has no sense, but if she doesn't pregnant again the rumors will fly about them either using birth control or some one getting fixed...

Same thought process applies to Anna and Josh. If Anna gets pregnant really fast "they are just like Josh's parents wanting to ride the baby gravy train". But if Anna doesn't get pregnant again with in the next few months then they must be using some kind of birth control or family planning...

The entire point to leaving it up to God is that GOD will determine if they will have another child. Some other posters on this blog have even stated they leave it up to God, some had 12 others had 1-2. Anna may never have another child and that according to the way the Duggars believe would be HIS plan not theirs.

Anonymous said...

"It's like living between a rock and a hard place. If Michelle gets pregnant again the woman has no sense, but if she doesn't pregnant again the rumors will fly about them either using birth control or some one getting fixed..."

*********************************

You make a very valid point.

However, scrutiny and criticism go with the turf of being an elected official OR putting your personal life on TV.

You set yourself up for people to critique everything about you, your family, your belief system.

SPECIALLY if your lifestyle is extreme by most people's measure - by proudly displaying the extreme, you are essentially ASKING to be critiqued. And critiqued you will be.

If you do not want this kind of scrutiny and criticism, it would be wise to refrain from putting your family on a 'reality' show.

CappuccinoLife said...

Thank you Cyn. You nailed it.

CappuccinoLife said...

To expound further, Anna is not Michelle's clone. She does not have the same body, the same fertility, and in their view God's plan for Josh and Anna may look very different than his plan for JB and Michelle. Even among families that never use birth control, the Duggar's are way, way past average when it comes to numbers. Human fertility is just not as simplistic as sex=baby. There are a whole lot of other factors that go into the mix.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I doubt if Ana is with child again as I do not think they are trying for a lot of children as I remember them saying they would be happy with 2 or 3 kids.

Anonymous said...

What I don't understand about the whole modesty thing, is that they make such a big show of covering everything-knees, necks, arms...all sorts of obscene body parts (sarcasm!) Yet JB and Michelle can't keep their hands and lips off each other and told the whole viewing audience what date Josie was conceived. How in the world does that fit the modesty role? We can't see your knees but we have to hear about your sex life and see you kissing over and over like pre-adolescents?
Just does not make sense.

Anonymous said...

To expound further, Anna is not Michelle's clone. She does not have the same body, the same fertility, and in their view God's plan for Josh and Anna may look very different than his plan for JB and Michelle. Even among families that never use birth control, the Duggar's are way, way past average when it comes to numbers. Human fertility is just not as simplistic as sex=baby. There are a whole lot of other factors that go into the mix.

--------------------------

Exactly. No two women are created alike. Michelle gets pregnant very easily, while Anna took awhile before getting pregnant with Mackynzie. Anna just may not be as fertile. It doesn't make her any less womanly, Godly, or quiverfull to have a fewer amount of children. If it's in God's plan for her to have less, so be it.

Kat said...

Regarding the ultrasound/ sheet thing, did they ever specifically mention the sheet for being "modesty?" I think I remember Jill saying something about Michelle just "not feeling comfortable showing off her belly" (or something along those lines.) Wasn't Johannah Michelle's first C-section in quite some time?
Maybe it's possible that after the C-section she felt less comfortable with people seeing her belly?
Not that I'm one in most cases to depend the Duggars, but I NEVER wear shorts or short skirts because I have scars on my legs, it has nothing to do with modesty, just my own insecurity; I could see how Michelle might feel similarly about her "baby belly" after another C-section.

Anonymous said...

No,I think Jackson was born by c-section as well.

Anonymous said...

Re: Michelle and Anna's dueling fertilities: "God's Plan" or simple genetics? Food for thought.

Snap! said...

If you watch 14 children and pregnant again- they clearly show that a sheet is being held up for the pregnancy with Jackson's ultrasound. At the end they show the ultrasound for the pregnancy with Johannah and no sheet is used. You can clearly see her belly. It is not blurred out on youtube.
They may have forgotten about the the sheet for that one. It is odd that Michelle doesn't seem to mind showing her belly to all her kids and the rest of us when she usually says they are modest and don't like showing skin- for example- their bathing suits.

Sweetpeas said...

I've seen people mention many times the "we see baby skin, not mommy skin" comment and assume it meant she didn't want people to see her neck, my interpretation was different, she was preparing to do kangaroo care with Josie. Kangaroo care means full skin-to-skin contact, therefore, while at that moment all we saw was her neck, she was reaching up preparing to unbutton her shirt in order to place Josie inside her shirt, against her skin, what I heard her saying was that the cameras needed to turn off/camera man needed to leave, while they got situated because the process of settling Josie against Michelle's chest would reveal alot more than her neck and she wasn't comfortable w/ that being shown. So the cameras left and came back once Josie was settled against Michelle's chest and they were both covered with a blanket.

mythoughtis said...

Anna got pregnant an entire 5 months after her marriage... to a guy she's never been alone with, never kissed, never did any other sexual activity with.... I think she's pretty fertile. My goodness, if she goes 2 or 3 years, is trying to get pregnant, and then doesn't... then it will be time to discuss fertility.

As for Michelle's belly... it's a modesty thing, because she was extremely careful to net let any skin below her neck show when she got to hold Josie the first time... and I'm not talking cleavage, I'm talking UPPER chest

Anonymous said...

Channel surfing today I momentarily stumbled on some kind of montage of something about "Love the Dress" (paraphrase)...about women choosing their wedding gowns, and who should appear, but the Duggars (oh god).

There was the freakishly placid Michelle all decked out in a wedding gown that SHE seemed to like.

Missing her cues entirely (or not caring?) JB chimes in that maybe MICHELLE would (read "SHOULD") like a WHITER shade of dress (more virginal??). And oh, maybe the shoulders of the dress should be 'big and poofy' (like those 1900 dresses?).

Ever-obedient Michelle says nothing as she agrees to try a different dress that maybe The Patriarch may actually like.

I realize this was all for the camera, but for god's sake, can the woman not even make a decision on her own about her own wedding dress?????? Is even this shred of individuality disallowed under Patriarchy?

Blech.

The Duggars do NOT 'encourage'. They nauseate. They SCARE.

Celestie said...

There was the freakishly placid Michelle all decked out in a wedding gown that SHE seemed to like.

----
I think the program is "Say Yes To The Dress". What I thought was so out of line with this show is, that brides are in this store on a very special day to them, that of choosing their wedding gowns. And there are the Duggars with 13 or 14 kids running around, climbing all over and under the furniture, generally causing chaos and "using up all the oxygen in the room." If I were one of those brides, I would be very upset that my "special day" was ruined by the hooligans.

This is not to mention JBs dictating what Michelle should chose. Rolling eyes. Maybe she liked off white, it might just be that it went better with her coloring.

Anonymous said...

you have a good point about the say yes to dress and about the others in the store

they were also embrassed saying its "not" modest etc.

I do think Josh and Jim Bob talked her into it, Josh a lot. ugh. i think she would of been better off without them there. shes a big girl. she gave birth to 19 kids. she can pick a dress. sheesh.

Anonymous said...

There is a rumour going around that Anna is pregnant again. Remember, just a rumour, so no jumping to conclusions. It may be true, it may be not.

By the way, it's James' birthday on the 7th of July! Happy (early) birthday James Duggar!

Judy said...

re:Michelle and Anna's fertility -- if you look at the birth dates of her children, Michelle actually has had periods where she didn't conceive for months. And she made reference on one show of being so disappointed when she took pregnancy tests and they were negative.

Anonymous said...

I don't get the impression there is any kind of competition between Anna and Michelle regarding getting pregnant. Getting pregnant is a complicated process. I consider myself extremely lucky having 4 kids in 7 years where our close friends, 2 couples, tried for 5 years before becoming pregnant with their first and the other couple is still waiting. Michelle is somewhat of a fertility oddity in my opinion. An average woman would hardly be able to get pregnant that often over the course of 20 years. Even if Anna and Josh were actively trying for another baby chances are she'll only have one every 2 or 3 years is she's lucky.

Anonymous said...

I do think them not having one-one time with the parents will really hurt them when they grow older.

They always do things as group
They say I love you to a room full of kids.

A child needs a parents one and one time to be loved and natured.

I think if they took time out to spend with kid. I think we would a big change in the kids. The older girls got that one and one time with them when they were young.

They are so much more well behaved.

I think if both parents took one kid and just spent time with them. We would see soon big changes.

JMO

I just things change before we hear something tragic happened.

I know they dont do time out. but else do they do besides talking with them. I think well "blanket time" worked with the others. It might not work for the wild boys.

Anonymous said...

And she made reference on one show of being so disappointed when she took pregnancy tests and they were negative.
---------------------
This to me does not speak quiverfull. A quiverfull family does not try to get pregnant or try to not get pregnant. So by saying that she was disappointed by not becoming pregnant means that they are not quiverfull. It seems to me they try very hard to have children, rather than a quiverfull family that takes what they get.

M said...

Can I share something with you all? I'm an infrequent commenter, but last week I found out that I am pregnant for the first time! (sorry, should I say 'expecting'?) ;)

My partner is temporarily working out of town during the work week, so when I got the positive test, I was home alone and wouldn't be seeing him for a few days. Without anyone close to share the news with, I was feeling pretty awestruck, shocked in disbelief, etc. (this is coming from someone who deals more with 'it's never the right time!' instead of 'leave it up to God!')

But wouldn't you know, TLC was on TV at the time, and it was the episode where Anna is pregnant and she, Michelle, Amy and maybe Jill go thrift shopping for baby clothes. Anna and Michelle seem to have a really nice talk about what clothes are useful and versatile for a new baby.

Even though my partner and I are atheists and I do not support Duggar-brand partriarchal conservatism, I do like watching the Duggars for their organizational skills, close-knit family and their daily domestic practices (especially the older girls). But Anna's excitement for her baby kind of calmed me down and was really reassuring. It got me out of my temporary loneliness, and it was a nice way to start the day, thinking 'if all goes well, that's going to be me in a few months!'.

No stupid baby headbands with giganto-flowers, though. :)

Anonymous said...

...Or maybe Anna doesn't enjoy the act of procreating with Joshiepoo as much as the inlaws. Could she have learned to use "No"?

Anonymous said...

I think if Michelle doesn't get pregnant again we can all breathe a sigh of relief and hope that God "closed her womb." Of course that means she will either have to be satisfied with actually parenting her children older than 6 months or she will have to face her addiction and get some real therapy so she can actually live the rest of her life. Even if Anna "only" has a child every two years that means she will easily have 10 kids before her womb closes. Oof, Josh doesn't do anything now, what is he going to do with 10 kids? Poor Mac, she is set up to suffer the same fate as her aunts. I'll bet unlike other patriarchal families these quiverfull families are actually happy when their first born are girls because then they know they are guaranteed free childcare for younger children.

Anonymous said...

Some people that do not use birth control (of any form, including nfp), do not have babies every 18 months. My husband and I have never used any form of birth control and we have six children that are all about 2 yrs apart.

We are still dissapointed (but accepting that it is God's plan) when we don't get pregnant when *we* think we want to. But we accept that *God* will decide when the baby comes, not me.

I know people that believe this way and had 3 or 4 children every 2 yrs, then had a long period when they did not get pregnant. One lady has a 20 yr old, 16 yr old, 10 yr old, 9 yr old, 7 yrold, 5 yr old, and a 4 month old baby. Just b/c it 'only' takes 5 months to get pregnant one time, does not mean it won't take longer (a year or two) to get pregnant the next time.

Mme S

Anonymous said...

I thought that Anna said that she and Josh had been married for four months when she found out she was pregnant. This would mean that she had probably been pregnant for about a month already --- so that´s three months.

Anonymous said...

More pictures of Josie. She's looking pretty good now.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=1439241&id=1111650198

CappuccinoLife said...

I'll bet unlike other patriarchal families these quiverfull families are actually happy when their first born are girls because then they know they are guaranteed free childcare for younger children.

********

I happen to be QF and have three boys, no girls. I'm supremely grateful for my boys, and not at all put out about their gender.

I know what Michelle said about having girls first. Please do not extrapolate that to all families who don't use birth control. That's much too broad a brush to paint with. The Duggars represent and speak only for themselves. Some people who are QF agree with them on all points. Others agree with them only on the point about birth control.

Kelly said...

I think a lot of people get confused about conservatively religious people when they have never been on that side of the fence. I have. I was involved in the United Pentecostal Church (UPC)for 6 years or so, an even more conservative movement than the Duggars'. And while they aren't in the "quiverful" movement, they have many similarities. Women never wear pants, makeup or unpurposeful jewelry, and practice strict modesty (never anything shorter than t-shirt length or showing the knee). They also "preach" against television/movie watching, women cutting their hair AT ALL, among other widely accepted things in society. I practiced a majority of these things, but after I started studying the bible for myself with out unbiased opinions attached, I realized it's just not there. So, we don't follow those "standards" anymore, however we are still christians...

I think the brother in law to Anna that made the post about the wedding had it right. They are different, no doubt but really, they don't judge people. You have to be on both sides of the fence to really see that they don't. My family that are still UPC blacklist and chastize me for wearing pants and cutting my hair. They tell me I am "playing with my salvation" because I have let these "standards" go. Amy doesn't follow any of these standards, and they don't treat her any different. In fact, I have seen episodes where she specifically says they don't force their beliefs on her. Believe me, that's a big deal when you live the kind of life the Duggars do.

As for the details, nobody's perfect. I wouldn't want someone to hold a magnifying glass up to my life either. What this show does provide is proof that families can exist without chaos and drama. It's about time we have a show that portrays a happy family working together instead of cheating, lying, and otherwise hurtful to each other. We all complain about the violence and lewd acts on TV, yet we can't embrace one that is positive and happy???

CappuccinoLife said...

Kelly, you are so right. It just is not possible to make across-the-board generalizations based on observations of a single family, whether positive or negative.

Anonymous said...

Josh expands the car lot by opening a second location.

He now has Saturday hours too

http://www.championnwa.com/

Kitten said...

Kelly - You said your women in your family's beliefs don't wear "unpurposeful" jewelry. I'm curious - What would be an example of "purposeful" jewelry?

Anonymous said...

Maybe a Medic-alert necklace or bracelet or a wedding band would be considered purposeful.

Cyn said...

Maybe a Medic-alert necklace or bracelet or a wedding band would be considered purposeful.

************************
Also depending on the sect and or the church small plain gold crosses and the purity rings... Earrings if they are posts and were done before you converted are also allowed in some of the more lenient sects.

Anonymous said...

Are earrings allowed? What do the Duggars say to piercings? Good or bad?

I am just curious because I have never seen any of the old Duggar girls wear earrings or any other piercings.

Susan said...

I am watching a rerun of the trip to the Creation "Museum". Are they so gullible that they think because a museum puts on a display then it must be so? The older kids have a weird concept of science if they believe that "creation is more scientifically proven than evolution." They must also believe that the bible is a science text book. I'm all for having your own beliefs but why are they afraid to expose their kids to other kinds of science?

Anonymous said...

I cringed when I watched the visit to the creation museum, too, but I guess that if their faith insists on a literalist approach to the Bible, I can´t really hold this against them so long as they don´t petition for this kind of teaching in public schools. I felt that the producers did a good job by juxtaposing the Duggar´s claims that creationism makes the most sense with the reactions of other museum visitors who thought that the whole idea of humans riding dinosaurs, etc. was ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

I agree Susan.
But maybe they are saying that it is "scientifically proven" because they are now questioning it themselves. Jana (or was it Jill?) hesitated before answering and there were a lot of "um"s and "ah"s.

religious books aren't TEXTBOOKS.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

It is true that religious books are not textbooks and likewise text books are not necessarily Gospel truth.

If one really believes the Bible litterly like the Duggars than they most likely will believe only when science agrees with the Bible it is accurate.

Quaking in Cali said...

Perhaps you meant literally instead of litterly although with the large Duggar brood I can see the confusion.

Curly Q said...

Susan -

That trip to the Creation Museum scared me quite a bit, to be honest.

I guess the purpose in keeping evolution out of their education, if it could really even be called that, is that it doesn't adhere to what the Bible says really happened. And I agree with you completely on allowing people to have their own beliefs, but will it really benefit the Duggar children as they go out into the real world where they wont have Michelle and Jim Bob to protect them?

A few years back when I was still an active member of my family church, I had a discussion with the reverend there about creation. I found her beliefs quite eye-opening in that she herself believed in the theory of evolution and other scientific beliefs. The comparison of her beliefs to those of the Duggars is, of course, quite stark.

The Bible is by no means a scientific text book. The stories were made to teach lessons to those less educated or literate. Being told that a deity made human life was much easier than trying to scientifically explain it for the audience of the time. But of course, who knows? Maybe some of those events did happen. I cannot know for certain.

For the Duggars to follow the Biblical text so loyally is both heartwarming and a little alarming. To give them some credit, their following the morals taught by the Bible is nice seeing that such behavior is uncommon in today's society. However, there are plenty of things in the Bible that really should not be taken word for word; creation being one of them. Now, again, I realize that they are entitled to their own beliefs, but that could come back to bite their children. They will find themselves in a world much bigger than that depicted in the Bible that won't be as tolerant of thinking we were simply made by a greater power.

I truly do hope for the best in the future of their children and will continue to hope that their time on Tee Ell See and their lives in a totally controlled environment hasn't slashed their chances of breaking free and truly becoming themselves, if they ever do decide to.

Anonymous said...

Kudos to Kelly. I couldn't have said it better myself, especially the last paragraph. While I certainly don't agree w/ everything the Duggars believe, I do "get" them for the most part. I think it's great to have a family who loves the Lord and each other.

We all know that because they are on TV, they can expect the criticism, some of which even I have spoken, but in the end - none of us is perfect - Duggars included. It used to really irritate me that the Duggars never seemed to "hang out" with others who were not like them. I wanted to see some people of color (I'm black), and I wanted them to at least go to church outside their home. At my church, we "praise dance" - which I know would weird most of you out, but it's a beautiful thing unto the Lord. The Duggars could at least do that. Then I realized that hey - we're all different and believe different things and not one of us is perfect. How they believe is their right. IMHO, the world would be soooooo much better if we loved God and family more. What's so wrong with that? ~ Jasmine

Suzie said...

I wouldn't question the Duggars so much if I hadn't already done my homework on Gothard and Vision Forum (where the Duggars are headed to pick up her Mother of the Year Award on Friday).

The Duggars praise God thru intermediaries; Gothard has RULES and if you are high-profile in the cult and don't follow these rules, you can get into big trouble. A former ATI daughter who has broken away receives threats from Gothard and his thugs to this day.

Google searches of Doug Phillips, the leader of Vision Forum, reveal his love of all things antebellum South. He wasn't a big fan of Abe Lincoln. These are facts easily proven; start with the following link and follow the links therein to see what Vision Forum is really all about (from a mainstream Christian blog):
http://truewomanhood.wordpress.com/2007/06/18/what-makes-a-woman-a-monstrous-woman-in-the-21st-century/

These are the people who hold the Duggars' faith in their hands (I imagine that as featured speakers their fees for these events (they ain't cheap) are waived. But those waivers have very heavy strings attached.

Knowing the Duggars are raising their children with these ties to cults and a reclamation of times past (JB mentions this all the time) makes me want to rescue all those children from a fate that could be a lot like the former ATI daughter's had she not escaped.

The Duggars really need to get themselves off TV; the pressure the children are facing, whether they know it, like Josh or even Jinger, or if they were born in front of a camera and know no other life, like Hannie, are looking at even more pressure will be exerted by Gothard and Phillips the longer the TV circus goes on. These kids don't deserve better; ie. a normal life. And that means exposure to ALL sides of a view to allow choices to be made.

Until that happens, the Duggars are a brand name, on TV and on the road selling bad religion.

Tammy C said...

I will be curious to see who from the Duggars will be in Texas to accept the award.Hopefully just Michelle and one daughter will be there to accept the award.Leave the rest at home especially Josie.


I live in Wake Forest,NC and now part of vision Forum is here.It is interesting because one never hears about them in the paper or news.I guess one day I should be on the look out for the Duggars to make their visit to our town.

CappuccinoLife said...

I wanted to see some people of color (I'm black), and I wanted them to at least go to church outside their home.
************

For the record, they did. :) I don't know for how long, since it was only shown once and a tiny snippet of the episode. But when Josie was in the NICU, they went to a church that was very different from what they're used to. Including the racial diversity part.

Anonymous said...

I am just curious because I have never seen any of the old Duggar girls wear earrings or any other piercings.
----------------
Actually, Mackynzie has her ears peirced. I have a feeling it may be some "tradition" in Anna's family, as she and her sisters all have peirced ears. Very surprising for a Duggar baby. I don't know if Michelle and Jim Bob approve, but I am sure they love her just the same.

Suzie said...

Oops, I meant to say, toward the end that the kids DO deserve better!

Huge difference. :D

Anonymous said...

JimBob is the master of searching the Bible for a particular verse and then twisting it to fit HIS beliefs and what HE wants his children to believe.

Prime example: the Bible verse about blood, which he took and twisted around so his teenage girls would go donate blood.

bonehead said...

That is what bugs me about the Duggars no dance clause. Cause did not David dance before and for God? Yeah, you know like in 'Footloose'. I think JimBob and Michelle don't know how to dance so they condemn it. I know people who condemn cars cause they don't own one or don't drive. So, they don't really follow the Bible exactly, more like make it up as we go along or Jimbob gets a relation or okeydokey from Gothard people. JMO

Cyn said...

I wanted to see some people of color (I'm black), and I wanted them to at least go to church outside their home.

**********************
They also have adult black friends (came to their Christmas party) They have friends that have adopted black children (one of the episodes in Little Rock) and we have not seen most of the kids friends on the show yet.

In some of the shots of the home school conference (can't remember which ones) we have seen people of color and other races... To be fair there were not many of them at camp OR they simply weren't filmed as much but they were there.

Jen said...

I am just curious because I have never seen any of the old Duggar girls wear earrings or any other piercings.
-------------------------------
I have seen Jana wearing what looks like pierced earrings.

In the webisode of the Josh and Anna's baby getting her ears pierced Jana was putting on earrings. Pictures of the mission trip also so Jana wearing earrings.

Anonymous said...

That is what bugs me about the Duggars no dance clause. Cause did not David dance before and for God? Yeah, you know like in 'Footloose'. I think JimBob and Michelle don't know how to dance so they condemn it.
--------------
I think this is all because of the modern day sexualization of dancing. So much of it today is very explicit, I agree, but there are so many genres that are much less "raunchy". Ballroom, tap, etc, are perfect examples of "clean" dancing. But I guess, just to make it easier, they don't do any of it.

Anonymous said...

As someone who loves dance and finds a certain spiritual element in it, I initially viewed the Duggar´s rule against dancing to be a bit extreme. Yes, dancing can incite desires that cannot be righteously satisfied, but, as John Milton once wrote, a virtue untried is an excremental whiteness---isn´t it better to practice temperance in the midst of these possibilities than to reject the positive (dance as wholesome, personal and spiritual expression) along with the negative?

What impressed me, though, was the way Jim Bob could appreciate and allowed his children to appreciate folk dancing during ¨Duggar Heavy Metal.¨ This wasn´t the only time the Duggars have observed others dancing without rushing to judgement or running the other way. And it speaks to the fact that these people, however extreme their views and lifestyle choices may be, really are less judgemental than most of us (including those of us, like me, who are fairly liberal, socially and politically).

Suzie said...

Tammy C., according to Vision Forum's website and schedule for tomorrow, JB and Michelle are both going to be speaking, in addition to Michelle's "tea" and undeserved Mother of the Year Award.

I'll be curious as to whether TLC films this. They filmed the VF film festival, so it's not as if the audience hasn't been exposed to it; I would imagine most haven't done their homework and could be enticed by these cults.

Also, I need to address the generalization that because one went to a church with black people or know black people in some capacity, or have friends who are friends with black people does not mean a thing. Case in point: my MIL has a Chinese son-in-law and a half-Chinese granddaughter. I've heard her say many times lines similar to the Duggars' "But we accept [Amy, Chinese, African Americans, whatever] just the same." How condescending can someone be and not be called out on it? I certainly called out my MIL on her racism (both AA and Chinese) when she made remarks like that. And I call out the Duggars pulling the same stunt, only cloaking it as a "my God (Gothard) is better than your God" mentality.

Anonymous said...

"Also, I need to address the generalization that because one went to a church with black people or know black people in some capacity, or have friends who are friends with black people does not mean a thing. Case in point: my MIL has a Chinese son-in-law and a half-Chinese granddaughter. I've heard her say many times lines similar to the Duggars' "But we accept [Amy, Chinese, African Americans, whatever] just the same." How condescending can someone be and not be called out on it?"

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Excellent point! And the Duggars don't seem to even GET IT that their statements like this absolutely reek of condescension.

JMO: The Duggars qualify as hopelessly ignorant.

Anonymous said...

Anna is pregnant again?

Anonymous said...

I do not recall one time where the Duggar family said they only associate with white people. I'm sure as true Christians, they view race as very little importance. I would find it extremely ignorant and unholy to not judge on ones' race. But as far as I know, they do not do that. Perhaps they live in a very "white" area.

Anonymous said...

There are photos from the Duggars appearance this week in Camden, Michigan, posted on blogspot, bthintsfromhome.

JimBob looks really heavy in those photos, like he's gained 30 pounds. He looks pregnant himself!

Anonymous said...

"JimBob looks really heavy in those photos, like he's gained 30 pounds. He looks pregnant himself!"

**********************************

HA! If it were JB facing pregnancy, something tells me there'd be a whole lot fewer Duggars on ye olde Duggar compound.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Anna's face certainly looks like she is pregnant again! In the last few episodes from this past season she was looking much thinner and defined in her face, but in these photos she looks as though she has puffed right up again!

mythoughtis said...

I think if you look at the photos again,,, especially the ones of Anna on stage with everyone... you'll decide she is NOT pregnant.
Her abdomen is flat.

Anonymous said...

I thought it was already established in a different thread that Anna IS pregnant. Maybe I just misunderstood. I thought someone had read it in an article somewhere.

Anonymous said...

There was a rumor that Anna was expecting again but it's never been confirmed.

Anonymous said...

IMO Anna does not look pregnant at all. She actually looks thinner than she did before. Baby Kynzie is so cute and looks like Josh. I am sad to see that none of the girls, in particular Jana or Jill, are wearing an engagement ring. I see their purity rings but no rings on the left. Not because I think they need to be out the house and making babies but because it would be nice to see them have a life of their own. I often wonder when they do marry and their husbands become head of household will the girls be allowed to spend as much with the family like Josh and Anna do? I also thought that the desire to marry by a certain age was a belief of the Duggars and others who are like minded. I could be wrong though.

MOM IN TEXAS

mamawama said...

I am at the vision forum baby conference this weekend. I just saw Michelle get her award. Only JimBob and Michelle are here. He flew in from Michigan. Michelle said that baby Josie is kept up in her room away from big crowds and away from the other kids. They call it "the upper room". LOL

Michelle is even prettier IRL, and skinnier. Jimbob looks the same and his hair is perfect. He is very personable IRL. Much more likeable than on TV.

Michelle did a question and answer type discussion and she got teary when she talked about her miscarriage. I think she is a very soft hearted person.

During the award presentation, they showed a video of many women telling Michelle "thank-you" for encouraging them. Michelle was touched and when she took the microphone, she was still teary. They gave her a silver serving tray with engraving " mother of the year" and other things that I could not read.

Michelle is wearing a jacket that has pleats on the front. I thought maybe she could be expecting, or maybe just a little tiny pooch left over from Josie?

They are genuinely sweet and I think anyone who has seen them IRL would be ashamed of themselves for speaking negative things about them because they are so positive and loving to everyone.

The Duggars also brought a slide show of Josie so everyone could see current pictures of her. She looks so much better and cuter than she did at first. There is one of her smiling that was taken at the end of June that was just precious!

She had 3 different standing ovations at various times. Then they had a table set up where you could buy a book or get a free picture that was signed and speak to them. Michelle said that she gives the picture out and asks people to pray for them whenever they see the picture.

It was said over and over that the TV show is a ministry for them, and that thousands of people can see them and they pray that they can glorify God through that platform. They acknowledged that it could be a negative thing for the children and they asked for prayer that the children would be protected.

It is a really neat conference. I've never to been to one like it before.

Anonymous said...

I don't see how something like square dancing could be considered evil.and yes,ppl across the country do still square dance.I grew up around it.some dancers are religious and some are not,but I have never heard it thought anywhere to be evil.

Tammy C said...

Good to know that Josie is not at the conference.Too many posts were written that she would be there as if they knew that for sure.

I hope the conference s fun.Many bloggers that I read are there for it.

maynardsmom said...

Michelle received an award. Who is taking care of the baby and other children? Josie is upstairs who is takng care of her? The older girls did not birth all these children. I would honor and be more "encouraged" by parents who stay home and care for them. I still want to know if money is in each childs account. Hopefully the series will not resume. Hopefully the girls can somehow get a life. Hopefully there will be no more babies. I wonder if people are tiring of the whole multiple many child reality thing.

MWM said...

The "thank you Michelle Duggar" video is posted on the Vision Forum website http://www.visionforum.com/hottopics/blogs/dwp.

Be sure to scroll down directly below the video, where Vision Forum allowed a blog entry stating that women who have daycare for their children are having "anonymous" care for their children. I can't believe the Duggars associate themselves with this judgemental group by accepting a Mother of the Year award.

MWM said...

"They acknowledged that (the show)it could be a negative thing for the children and they asked for prayer that the children would be protected. "

----------

Isn't that JimBob & Michelle's job? To protect their children at any cost?

They continue to film the show and at the same time acknowledge that it may be a negative thing for the children.......wow,I don't even know how much more blatant they could be: the show is all about the money.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Concerning dancing. No one every said "square dancying" was evil. It is just some do not believe in dancing period, weither it be modern dancing or even worship dancing. I grew up Baptist and we did not do any type of dancing but we were never taught that square dancing was evil. We just did not engage in dancing, period.

Maybe the thought of not participating in any type of dancing has to do with not "crossing the line". Some think that if you engage in one form of activity it can lead to other forms that they may consider "evil", so they make it a practice not to engage in any of it. Just a thought.

Anonymous said...

Re: the Duggars stating their 'reality' show is 'ministry'.

Pretty sure if/when Falwell, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, et al, had been asked the reason for being on TV, their answer would've been the same - it's all about ministry and doing the work of the lord.

Just sayin'......

Danielle said...

The "Thank You Michelle Duggar" video on the vision forum blog is not working for me- I did see the daycare comment. Ho much validity can you pay people who claim, "Transgenics alters plant or animal DNA so that it contains a gene from another organism. In the UK a human nucleus is routinely implanted in the egg of a cow. Dr. David Prentice of Family Research Council claims that it results in a being that is 98.5% human and 1.5% cow. Does a human-animal hybrid have a soul and can it be saved?"

I'm curious about this 1.5% cow/ 98.5% human creature. Really? Is this for real or is it a hoax?

Anonymous said...

Be sure to scroll down directly below the video, where Vision Forum allowed a blog entry stating that women who have daycare for their children are having "anonymous" care for their children. I can't believe the Duggars associate themselves with this judgemental group by accepting a Mother of the Year award.
----------------------------

I can. The Duggars believe exactly the same thing.

It's one thing to choose a way of life that suits you best. It's another to condemn others who don't share your exact beliefs. That's what these holier-than-thou types do. "We love our kids better than you do - so we don't put them in daycare, preschool, public schools or even private religious schools. Too bad you heathens don't really love your kids." That's the attitude embodied in the statement that people who utilize daycare are letting their kids be raised by anonymous others.

If they're not busy patting themselves on the back, they're busy putting others down. That's why the Duggars are not inspiring to me.

Ollie said...

Re: the TV show as ministry

I have no doubt that the Duggars may actually believe this/use it to justify their decision to themselves. As a Christian and someone who is heavily involved in various types of ministry it makes me sad. True Christian ministry is trying to do the Lord's work for HIS glory, without any thought of earthly riches. That being said man may not be able to live on bread alone, but he does have earthly needs. I would accept this answer if, like many missionaries, the Duggars only made enough money off of their show to cover expenses related to the show and provide a modest income for themselves, but I think that's probably far from reality. Also, I have yet to see an instance where the real focus of the show was on the Lord, rather it all seems to focus on the Duggars, fine since that is the point of the show, but that doesn't really fit in with the whole ministry aspect. I know many people involved in Christian ministry who carry pray cards or similar items to give to people they meet, I know of no one but politicians who carry around family photos to give to strangers.

Here's an episode idea for the next season, show the Duggars assisting the Keller family in their prison ministry. Maybe then they will see what real Christian ministry is away from the glory and glamour of a television program.

Steve knight said...

that thank you video is enough to make me sick.
if the Duggers have their way no one could use birth control. jimbob wanted this as part of his office.
They have no right to do something like that. if they have that right we have the right to put a limit on their family size.

roddma said...

Supporters rattle on about how parents of say two or so send other kids to daycare . There's a big difference in hiring help and built in sitters. I cant find the comment on child care. Excuse me some of them don't have built in sitters at home. How is that child abuse IMO the bulk of the award goes to the Duggar girls.

Anonymous said...

I think the duggars truly have good intentions as far as how they raise their children and their mission to help others by sharing their story on tv. However, I do think its time to be a family again, not a reality tv family. Its time to regain some privacy, if thats still possible, and stop filming their lives. I am concerned about how the children's lives are going to be impacted by the show. It seems that their ministry is at the cost of the childrens' chance of ever having a "normal" life. Of course, by normal, I mean not being globally recognized and criticized (good and bad). I do, however, believe besides the whole tv thing, they have raised their kids well. I dont know of any other children who are so well-behaved, positive children. The whole family, including the children, seem to always have something good to say about others. I wish I could be so positive. They seem to think before they respond, in any situation. The important thing here is that I believe their intentions are good, but the show needs to end. Mission complete: the duggar story and message is out there. Time to resume life pre-tv.

Who's inspired now? said...

Josie's immune system is still compromised, and will be for at least a year. She shouldn't be traveling at all, even to be left "upstairs". Did they fly with that sickly infant? Insane.

Michelle is not inspirational to me in the slightest. To me, the whole family is judgemental and hypocritical. She doesn't protect or take care of her own children, yet she dares to look down on others who work (as opposed to selling out privacy for a TV show).

Some of us worked when our kids were little but actually took care of them ourselves, instead of pawning off their care to our older daughters, who are unpaid slave daycare workers at best. And some of us would never sell our kids privacy for money. Never.

Michelle is Procreator of the Year at best. She is not motivational or inspirational, except as an advertisement for the need for birth control.

Anonymous said...

I do not recall one time where the Duggar family said they only associate with white people. I'm sure as true Christians, they view race as very little importance. I would find it extremely ignorant and unholy to not judge on ones' race. But as far as I know, they do not do that. Perhaps they live in a very "white" area.
----------
Sorry! I meant "I would find it extremely ignorant and unholy TO judge..." I accidently put "not".

Anonymous said...

I think if you look at the photos again,,, especially the ones of Anna on stage with everyone... you'll decide she is NOT pregnant.
Her abdomen is flat.
-------------
Pregnancy doesn't show right away!

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous 7:16pm: Well said, and that's my take on Duggars and Duggar-likes. Always making a big show of their 'religiosity' (to quote Bill Maher).

Truly ethical people do not have to set themselves apart nor call attention to their 'ministry' - they simply go about daily life looking for ways to do good in the world, one person at a time.

The Duggars seem to like the attention received from their televised 'ministry'. This is in direct conflict with my definition of the much-touted Duggar 'modesty'.

msrylee said...

I believe that each of us has the right to choose our beliefs, religion, all decisions concerning our children (home-schooling, daycare, etc.). However, I believe just as strongly that I shouldn't judge anyone else for their decisions.

Anyone who follows a religious group, cult or sect is in fact agreeing with the teachings of said group. The comment about the anonymous caregivers in a daycare setting is just one example of judgment by these followers, including the Duggars.

The choosing of MD as the mother of the year comes as no surprise, as this group believes she is truly raising her blessings in a very selfless way.

msrylee said...

I also believe that God does protect me in many ways. He also asks that we help ourselves. The Duggars have asked for prayer for their blessings that God would protect them from the negativity expressed as a result of being in the public. One way for JB and M to protect their blessings would be to stop the cameras, and allow their children their privacy. Oops, the paycheques would stop as well. Weighing the safety and privacy of the blessings, against the almighty dollar, it seems to me that the TLC cheque wins. JMHO.

Anonymous said...

Excuse for that I interfere ?But this theme is very close to me. Write in PM.

Anonymous said...

Mr & Mrs Duggar come across as quite absorbed about their own self importance in the grand scheme of things. Regarding the miscarriage after birth of Josh - do they think that the thousands of other couples in the world who suffer miscarriages are being punished by God? Should couples who've had a miscarriage assume they've sinned? I think the ongoing issue for the Duggars is that they understand the world only from an "it's all about us" point of view. Even when the family does missionary work, the filming is mostly about Duggars, not to mention they will get paid ($50,000) for yet another episode.

Anonymous said...

"if the Duggers have their way no one could use birth control. jimbob wanted this as part of his office.
They have no right to do something like that. if they have that right we have the right to put a limit on their family size."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is exactly my biggest complaint about the Duggars and those who share the Duggar mindset.

These people are never content at having the freedom to do (or abstain from) as they see ethically appropriate.

No, they continued to try to legislate the REST of us to conform with THEIR narrow minded beliefs, AND they consider doing anything less failing their religious duty. They, therefore, want a respect for their lifestyle that they are unwilling to give to others who do not share their belief system. Hypocrisy at work here.

THIS (among other reasons) is why the Duggars fail miserably at 'encouraging' or inspiring. If they had their way, alcohol, birth control, abortion, modern attire, premarital kissing, and possibly even dancing and art would be illegal.

These people SCARE me.

Small minds make for a small world view. NO THANK YOU.

Anonymous said...

I have never posted here so please forgive me if this is off topic. Last week while watching the birthday/roller skating episode JB sister was speaking about her husband and Amy. I think she hinted that Amy was born out of wedlock. Does anyone know about this or did I just misunderstand what was said?

mamawama said...

I wish everyone here could meet the Duggars IRL. They do not force their beliefs on other people, or tell them not to use birth control, daycare, etc. They just talk about what has worked for their family. They seemed humble to me and admitted several times that they are not perfect.

I am not sure who was watching baby Josie, but I believe that they were away from her for only about 24 hours. I saw them in the hotel very late on Thursday night and then they spoke on Friday, but I never saw them on Saturday or Sunday. I think they left late Friday night.

I think the Duggars agreed to do the conference because they are friends with the people who host the conference and they wanted to help them out. Having the Duggars as speakers of your conference will really boost the number of attendees, I'm sure! But they only stayed a very small amount of time. I think they also want to encourage other people, and most of the other families at the convention have many children, so they really want to hear any secrets that they want to share.

mamawama said...

I have never heard Michelle talk about daycare. There was another speaker who has a website called Ladies against feminism. She spoke about how some of her critics will tell women to put their children in daycare so they can get a job because the only way to "use your brain" is to work outside the home. But her critics believe that the option of staying home with your own children is a waste of your brain. Even that speaker never said that daycare was wrong. I never heard Michelle say anything about daycare.

I hate how people put words in the Duggars' mouth that they have never uttered.

Michelle did commend her older children. She spoke about all the help and how proud she was of them all. She said that the kids packed everything up for the move to Little Rock without her help ( as she was in the hospital obviously). She talked about how they managed things at their real house and kept things going there, and also drove back and forth many times to get items and things.

She does not come across as judging at all. She is very humble. I think they are saying " This is what has worked for us", but they aren't saying that everyone has to stop using birth control.

I think there show is a ministry because you have seen them in a Christmas parade as Bible characters, in a Noah's ark play, on Mission trips etc. They are showing HOW a Christian family can be happy following the Lord. That is a wonderful ministry.

I also think they are helping others with the money from the show. I am positive that whatever they are doing with it will bring glory to the Lord, and it is not being used to glorify themselves. I have seen them help their friends remodel their house ( that had to be expensive!). I have seen them send all their older kids on mission trips ( that is very expensive!) I have seen JimBob buy food for families out of his own money. I just don't understand how anyone can call them greedy and say they are just having a show to get rich?

Anonymous said...

I have never posted here so please forgive me if this is off topic. Last week while watching the birthday/roller skating episode JB sister was speaking about her husband and Amy. I think she hinted that Amy was born out of wedlock. Does anyone know about this or did I just misunderstand what was said?
--------------------
Yes, Amy was born out of wedlock. Her parents married when she was 18years old.

Let's get real said...

Considering the danger to all of the children, due to overexposure from being on TV, I think the only possible reason that Jim Bob continues to do this show is for money.

No one voluntarily puts their family at risk. There has to be a reason. Clearly, a lot of people are not at all inspired or motivated by this family, so it seems that money is the main reason to compromise their values.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said:

These people are never content at having the freedom to do (or abstain from) as they see ethically appropriate.

No, they continued to try to legislate the REST of us to conform with THEIR narrow minded beliefs, AND they consider doing anything less failing their religious duty. They, therefore, want a respect for their lifestyle that they are unwilling to give to others who do not share their belief system. Hypocrisy at work here.
-----------------------------

Eggzactly! While they give lip service to the idea that they are open and accepting of other "lifestyles," they actively work to elect (or be elected) to positions that could then be used to deny others the right to live as they wish.

We already saw Michelle in action in working to deny a small business owner the opportunity to increase his revenue by selling beer and wine in his convenience store. That didn't sit well with Michelle, so she made sure it didn't happen. That's direct interference with another person's right to make a legal living, and an imposition of Michelle's beliefs on the way another person does business.

It's simply not true that they are open minded and just want to be allowed to live their life as they see fit. If they could legislate their way of life on the rest of us tomorrow, I know they'd do exactly that.

Sharla said...

The mini-mart horse was beaten, burned, buried, resurrected, buried, resurrected, and buried again. Please don't bring it up again not even as part of a larger comment. Thank you!

Anonymous said...

Something that bothers me.... if the Duggars are so proud of themselves for not allowing "anonymous" people to raise their children, why did they let Jill and Joy go babysit other peoples' children? This is an even worse example of hypocrisy than Josh's offering loans at the car lot while preaching against debt. It's one thing to personally choose not to utilize loans or babysitters, but if you choose to speak against them and those who do, you should not be offering those services to others. However, I'm assuming Jill and Joy were paid for the babysitting job, so in their minds that's okay to allow others to do what they consider to be "wrong" as long as they (the Duggars) profit from it.

Anonymous said...

It was my impression that when they said Josie was "upstairs," they meant upstairs at home, not upstairs somwhere with them at the conference.

Anonymous said...

While Michelle and Jim Bob have chosen not to use birth control, I don´t think they´ve ever said (at least on their show and the interviews I´ve read or watched) that others shouldn´t use it as well. When they spoke at the U of Arkansas in one episode, they said that their lifestyle/choices aren´t for everyone----which is one of the reasons that they don´t belong to the QF movement. For them, this is a personal decision and calling. Jim Bob and Michelle don´t look down on others who choose to limit the size of their families. Jim Bob is close with his sister, Deanna, despite the fact that she had a child out of wedlock and only one (and that child, Amy, clearly has different views and isn´t treated as a lesser member of the family).

Cyn said...

if the Duggars are so proud of themselves for not allowing "anonymous" people to raise their children, why did they let Jill and Joy go babysit other peoples' children?

There is a world of difference between "anonymous" 8-12 hours a day of day care/ school, and date night once a week or once a month to keep your husband and wife relationship strong.

The Duggars 'encourage' date nights or date picnics in the afternoons, or just the parents doing a small grocery run. Once a week at least, they do something just the two of them; something I have heard touted on Oprah, the View, child magazines, parenting blogs and magazines.

Anonymous said...

"There is a world of difference between "anonymous" 8-12 hours a day of day care/ school, and date night once a week or once a month to keep your husband and wife relationship strong. "
-----------------------------------
I can definitely appreciate this difference. What I'm saying is that the Duggars don't seem to push their reasoning to its logical conclusion on any issue. This line is blurry for some and can be misinterpreted, and the least they could do is to not publicly condemn an action in which they participate, only to a lesser degree than those they are speaking against. When they make these generalizations, I think they need to be especially careful not to be confusing in their own practices. We all do what feels right to us, but we don't all make statements about the choices of others. If they personally saw a difference between daycare and babysitting and believed in one but not the other then that's absolutely their right, but they take it a step further when they make statements about not letting "anonymous people raise your children." It's their choice to use their show as a platform for their beliefs, but I wish they would be a little more clear and careful in their explanations and actions if they truly wish to be any kind of example. Right now all they seem to be doing is causing viewers to point fingers - both at themselves (the Duggars) and each other - because their explanations often aren't thorough or well thought out. Sometimes it appears that the family condemns something while still making choices that work for their own family, all the while not realizing that to the viewers, they appear to go against some of what they preach.

MWM said...

Vision Forum, (the group that gave Michelle Duggar the "Mother of the Year" award this past weekend at their conference) has a list of topics on their website from that were discussed at the conference.

Most notable were the topics of what to name your children, and "how to deal with social workers and spanking laws".

Michelle has skillfully evaded directly answering the "do you spank your children now, or have you done so in the past" question. It's a yes-or-no question and she has declined to answer yes or no.

Another topic was having very large families = more glory to God.

I guess that means that a mother or only one or two children would never be eligible for "Mother of the Year". I understand the criteria now. Quantity = "better".

Anonymous said...

"They seemed humble to me and admitted several times that they are not perfect."

--------

I'd like to hear more from the Duggars about that subject, i.e. what things they think they are NOT perfect on. They should be specific.

Michelle also recently said that the premature birth of Josie put a strain on their marriage.
I'd like to hear more on that also. In what ways did it put a strain on your marriage? Be specific.

If they can share Josie's conception date, then it shouldn't be too big a stretch for them to elaborate on other topics instead of sweeping them under the rug.

Cyn said...

This line is blurry for some and can be misinterpreted, and the least they could do is to not publicly condemn an action in which they participate, only to a lesser degree than those they are speaking against.

******************************
I haven't heard the DUGGARS say anything about childcare, it was a topic AT the seminar they were getting the award.

What the Duggars HAVE discussed themselves on the show an in their book is to encourage couples to have 1 on 1 time, even if it's just a weekly walk around the block. JimBob's mother came and would watch the kids when they were younger.

At some point in the babysitting episode it was called a date night either by the couple going out OR the Duggars and I can't remember which.

At the same time if the Duggars DO come down solid on a side they are criticized for doing so (dancing).

mamawama said...

I attended the vision forum conference and I did not see any topics on spanking, babysitting, or having very large families equals more glory for God.

There was one called " Real Families Discuss the Joys and Challenges of Raising a Large Family for the Glory of God", and that is the closest thing I can see to any that were mentioned.

Anonymous said...

hey y'all...regarding not seeing engagement rings on any of the older girls fingers....y'all might as well sit back and relax...the courting, Gothard followers or whatever you want to call them that I know? Well the 'children' didn't marry until late 20's and on into the 30's And that has been in the last 4 yrs or so!

tick tock

Jen said...

"At some point in the babysitting episode it was called a date night either by the couple going out OR the Duggars and I can't remember which."

------------------------------------
Don't remember if it was called a "date" night or not. I do remember that they came to babysit so the mom and dad of the children could go to birthing class.

Steve knight said...

Real Families Discuss the Joys and Challenges of Raising a Large Family for the Glory of God

is not about having large families for the glory of god????

about every night is date night with ma and pa dugger since kids are pawned off so much. the daughters are the ones needing the date night.

roddma said...

"I think there show is a ministry because you have seen them in a Christmas parade as Bible characters, in a Noah's ark play, on Mission trips etc. They are showing HOW a Christian family can be happy following the Lord. That is a wonderful ministry. "
The Duggar version of Christianity is a bunch of rules and legalism.

"Small minds make for a small world view. NO THANK YOU."
I agree. Not only did Jim bob want to outlaw chemical birth control but to propose a bill that gives homeschool families a tax break. I also read he also wanted to strip funds of public schools. He and Michelle attended public schools. Not everyone can home school their kids.

Anonymous said...

re: Concerning dancing. No one every said "square dancying" was evil. It is just some do not believe in dancing period, weither it be modern dancing or even worship dancing. I grew up Baptist and we did not do any type of dancing but we were never taught that square dancing was evil. We just did not engage in dancing, period.

Maybe the thought of not participating in any type of dancing has to do with not "crossing the line". Some think that if you engage in one form of activity it can lead to other forms that they may consider "evil", so they make it a practice not to engage in any of it. Just a thought.

-----------------------------------

I know that no one specifically said square dancing was evil,I was only commenting on one form of dancing where I don't think any evil could ever be considered of it,as it has such a wholesome,downhome family atmosphere.
That said,if that is indeed their thinking,then it is very limited and far too legalistic,IMO.

Anonymous said...

Here's the link from the Vision Forum (Mother of the Year Award for Michelle Duggar) Conference:

http://www.visionforumministries.org/events/bc/001/lecturetopics.aspx

If you scroll down, you will see under the heading of "Legal topics...." it specifically says Dealing with Social Workers and Spanking Laws.
It's two topics below where JimBob Duggar is listed as talking about fatherhood.

MamaWama said...

I think everyone draws their line in the sand somewhere regarding rules for their homes. Some parents allow their teens to smoke and drink in their presence, some allow tattoos, and some only allow healthy foods. I think the Duggars have chosen what they feel is best for their family and what they think God wants them to do.

If they were more mainstream, they wouldn't be as fun to watch.

Anonymous said...

Something that bothers me.... if the Duggars are so proud of themselves for not allowing "anonymous" people to raise their children, why did they let Jill and Joy go babysit other peoples' children?
------------------------
This is different because Jill (and the whole Duggar family) know the children being baby-sat. They are not strangers to eachother, they are good family friends. It's not much different between Grandma Duggar baby sitting the younger ones.

Sharla said...

Removed a comment it turns out I shouldn't have let through and rejected some responses. This is a blog about the Duggars in particular not about the politics of taxation and providing education. Thanks.

Iliketheduggars said...

"It's one thing to choose a way of life that suits you best. It's another to condemn others who don't share your exact beliefs. That's what these holier-than-thou types do. "We love our kids better than you do - so we don't put them in daycare, preschool, public schools or even private religious schools. Too bad you heathens don't really love your kids." That's the attitude embodied in the statement that people who utilize daycare are letting their kids be raised by anonymous others."

---------------------------------

The Duggars have never said anything remotely like that.

All they have done IS choose a life that suits them best.

And then they are condemned by people who don't share those exact beliefs.

Iliketheduggars said...

"if the Duggers have their way no one could use birth control."

They have never said that.

"jimbob wanted this as part of his office."

I have never heard that. Do you have a source for this?

Anonymous said...

I'm curious about the conference topic regarding what to name your children. Very interesting.

Iliketheduggars said...

"If they had their way, alcohol, birth control, abortion, modern attire, premarital kissing, and possibly even dancing and art would be illegal.

These people SCARE me."

--------------------------------

The Duggars are not campaigning or legislating or trying to make things illegal. Their simple choice to live conservatively is not an attack on your choice not to.

Anonymous said...

I think my biggest problem with the Duggars is their sense of superiority over others.

The constant references to "oh, don't see MOMMY skin!" and so on gives me the impression that all of us sinners are horny perverts drooling over a bit of ankle showing, etc.

I don't mind their beliefs, but when they seem to consider themselves to be morally superior to others because, well, they don't do this or that, it irks me.

Celestie said...

I'm curious about the conference topic regarding what to name your children. Very interesting.


__--

Me too, I would like to know what they said on that topic. As I mentioned a while back, while doing research on cults, it is often found that families give their children names that sound somewhat the same. So there is no personal distinction among them.
I'm not saying the Duggars are a cult, but the children's names are so similar, Johanna, joyanna, Jana, etc.

Cyn said...

The same letter name thing the Duggars do is not all that rare... I knew several families growing up that thought it was "cute" to do that... they only had 6 kids though.
Daryl
DJ
Dwane
Daniel
Derrick
(can't remember the baby's name)
and the Mother's name was Dorris, Dad's name was David.

Other families only named their kids after bible characters, and John and David would have been to simple... Celebrities seem to have a thing going with naming a child after a city, or after a flower, or make it up as they go along.

We have one celebrity who named FIVE of his 11 children after himself: Foreman has 11 children, and each of his five sons are named George: George Jr., George III, George IV, George V and George VI. His four younger sons are distinguished from one another by the nicknames "Monk", "Big Wheel", "Red", and "Little George".

Do these people count as cultish?

I think the J names are past dingy.. But the way it started makes sense, if you think the 4th or 5th one may very well be the last one you give it a J too, other wise the child is going to wonder why his name is different... (at this time they hadn't actually found Gothard or Forum Visions or any of these people).

Anonymous said...

I think it is a way of making sure the children have no individuality. None of them are encouraged to seek a career, none were allowed to attend school, all have to attend the field trips no matter how age-inappropriate they are. All of them used to dress alike-thank goodness those days are over. Even in musical instruments, all of them play violin. What kind of orchestra only has violins? (And they do have enough people to start an orchestra). Where are the cellos, violas, basses? Where are the band instruments and percussion? Were any of them allowed to choose what instrument to play?
Even their hair length is dictated by the patriarch. What if one girl wants to cut her hair, wear jeans, attend public school and play the tuba in the marching band? (Go, JoyAnna!)Would she be encouraged to go for her dreams? Unlikely. In dysfunctional families and cults, people are encouraged to be exactly like everyone else, no individual thoughts or actions allowed. In the dysfunctional Duggar family, one's name is hardly distinguishable from the next person's.

Anonymous said...

"I'm curious about the conference topic regarding what to name your children. Very interesting."
---------------------------------
Here is exactly what the baby conference seminar description on the baby naming seminar from their site says

"In one sense, a name is the very first gift a parent gives a new chid that has come into the world. And this is a gift that carries with it the possibility of blessing, inspiring and influencing that child for the rest of their lives. Despite this fact, most parents in America pick the names of their children based on personal whim. But is there a better way? It is a matter of historical fact that many of the great Christian revivals have been accompanied by seasons of rich and meaningful names given to children with the goal that such names would communicate an important message. What does this look like? What principles should govern? Now, in this humorous and practical talk, a biblical philosophy for naming children is presented."

I hope this might dispel any notions that the baby naming seminar was in anyway cultist or just plain weird.

Anonymous said...

Am wondering what 'important message' the name, Jinger, was meant to convey?

MWM said...

from the Baby Conference, (aka Mother of the Year Award): " Despite this fact, most parents in America pick the names of their children based on personal whim"

-----

Isn't that what the Duggars did when they decided to give Jinger her name? What historical biblical significance does the name Jinger have? Or for that matter, what about Josie's middle name "Brooklyn" ?

I don't think the Duggars follow this "teaching" from Doug Phillips at all.

Anonymous said...

The baby conference from last weekend (Vision Forum) now has their website updated to sell a DVD collection of the conference. It names speakers including JimBob & Michelle Duggar.

Pricetag: $89.

I wonder how much of that goes to the Duggars ?

Anonymous said...

Do the Duggars, including mother and father, ever read books other than the bible and home school text books? Are they allowed to go to the library? It's sad to think the older young men and women in the family may not be allowed even one or two hours a week to read - books approved by Mr. Duggar of course. There are many well written wholesome books out there. Often low income families have no books around but the Duggars are not low income.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Concerning the names, all I think they consider is that the name fits the sex of the child and starts with "J". In the last few babies did they not vote as a family for the given names? They are not following any rules but their own.

Anonymous said...

"I hope this might dispel any notions that the baby naming seminar was in anyway cultist or just plain weird."

******************************************

I think it enforces my notion that this seminar is weird. I can't believe these people have seminars for every possible aspect of your life. They're telling you how to choose baby names, that is ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Do the Duggars, including mother and father, ever read books other than the bible and home school text books? Are they allowed to go to the library? It's sad to think the older young men and women in the family may not be allowed even one or two hours a week to read - books approved by Mr. Duggar of course. There are many well written wholesome books out there.
***********************************
I have a friend who became very wacky and joined a strict Pentacostal church after college. She and her husband decided they had to control every aspect of their children's lives, including reading every book before the kids did, just to make sure there was nothing in them to harm their developing "Christian" minds. Well, one child was a voracious reader and all my friend did was complain about how many books she had to read to keep on top of the kids' choices! Good thing she only had two kids. I thought, how ridiculous; she was sacrificing all her time to put this huge control on her kids' lives instead of letting them learn and read on their own. Many other habits of theirs matched the Duggar lifestyle too-clothing, no dancing, no social life outside of church, etc.
Last I talked to her, one boy had been in much trouble with the law, including for drug possession. The other one has a multi-colored mohawk, no job, piercings and tattoos galore and not enough education to even pass a GED. (Can we say "rebellion"?)
Great life-style. Meanwhile, my kids who all went to public schools, occasional church and were allowed to make their own age-appropriate clothing, music and book choices are pretty darn well-rounded, college educated (or still in college) and successful if I must say so myself!

Anonymous said...

Despite this fact, most parents in America pick the names of their children based on personal whim.
* * * *

Again, there's that holier than thou attitude that permeates almost every aspect of the conservative religion the Duggars follow. Another slam on "most parents" out there in America - the ones that pick names "on personal whim," the ones that let anonymous people raise their children (instead of teenage daughters), etc.

It's just so much nonsense as well. Most people do put a lot of thought into what to name their children, and choose names that have importance to them.

I too wonder what biblical significance the name "Jinger" has. One internet search says:

The girl's name Jinger \j(i)-nger, jin-ger\ is a variant of Ginger (English), and the meaning of Jinger is "pep, liveliness; ginger".

All I get from this is there are a group of people that need to feel important by comparing themselves favorably at every opportunity to "most parents" or "most people", i.e., heathens, nonbelievers, or anyone else that's not them. Whatever.

Cyn said...

I think it enforces my notion that this seminar is weird. I can't believe these people have seminars for every possible aspect of your life. They're telling you how to choose baby names, that is ridiculous.

*****************************
It's a Conservative Christian 'convention'. They are in a hotel so they have several different 'seminars' one can go to. These are usually modeled after business conventions. They offer lots of different events because they are in hotels so the 'classes' are usually rather small.

There were also seminars on how to deal with legal aspects. On adoption, surrogacy, foster parenting, embryology, birth control, large family life, even Jim Bob was co-chair on one of the seminars about being a father.

They came to the 'convention' to talk, and learn about these topics. If I was going to an 'art' convention I would expect classes about color, texture, mediums, artists. Medical convention classes about weird diseases. So why does it surprise anyone that these topics were discussed at a conservative christian convention about babies.

As for the DVD's of the convention most of the goers will probably buy them because the DVD's cover the classes they couldn't attend if they were attending another one at the same time. It's 40 CD's covering the entire conference with lots of extras stuck in.

I would assume that the entire profit margin for the DVD's or the MP3's would go to Vision Forum ministries. IF any of the speakers were paid they were paid for the speaking part and not percentage of overall products sold. The Conference had a room set up from morning to afternoon for vendors daily. The Duggars may or may not have had an area set up but the authors speaking that weekend would have, and others attending the convention.

So far this sounds like a normal convention, not a cult.

Anonymous said...

If you really think about it, all of the Duggar children DO have names that fit their personality.

Eg, Jinger is kind of "spicy" and different.

Jana is soft and feminine.

Jessa is trendy and girly.

Jill is traditional and shy.


Joy Anna is tomboyish and outgoing.

Johannah is spunky and active.

Don't you think they have pretty suitable names?

Tammy C said...

Anonymous -I was going to tell the same story about friends who tried to control their children's life and the next thing I knew the oldest son was in rehab.

One thing I found interesting from the pictures that I have seen from the Baby Conference pictures compared to the Duggars.Many have pierced ears,shorter hair,lots of toys for the children.

On one hand I laughed aloud when I read a caption that said is this an older sibling or a younger mom taking care of the baby!Sounded so familiar.

Anonymous said...

"I would assume that the entire profit margin for the DVD's or the MP3's would go to Vision Forum ministries..."

----

Does anyone have a cited reference that the Duggars do not receive a portion of the profits from Vision Forum Ministries? I'd be curious to read that, being as how JimBob is supposedly so business-savvy.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Concerning the DVD's sold at the conference. I rather doubt if any of the speakers got paid for the selling of the DVD. I know others who have spoken at such a conference and they usually collect a fee for speaking knowing that their speech would be taped and sold. Most see their speech as an opportunity to help others in a special area of interest and do not desire to make money other than the initial payment for the speech.

I have no reason to believe that the Duggars received any money other than what is paid to each of the speakers which usually is under $200. While JB is savy about business matters he also is very generous in sowing into the lives of others. I would not be surprised if he even waivered his speaking fee and used this opportunity to bless others.

Iliketheduggars said...

"Again, there's that holier than thou attitude that permeates almost every aspect of the conservative religion the Duggars follow."

---------------------------------

Agreed, and it is aggravating as h*ll. Thankfully, while the Duggars imitate the practices of those folks, they do not seem to display that condescending attitude or even the basic condescending beliefs.

bonehead said...

Someone here at one of the threads, said that JB was stupid or acts stupid on TV, well yeah that is the impression people get. But, that man is far from being stupid. Savy business man , oh yeah. When you can get stuff for free, have somebody else pay the bills, stay out of debt, be a cheapskape, live like your poor, and own a new large house with new furniture in it, I would say your not stupid. Remember a man can live in the woods with just a knife, and survive, women & children need things to survive(like shelter, food, waste removal, to stay healthy) And about wearing other peoples shoes(eeewe), it's probably not a good idea to wear anothers shoes, since, everyone walks differently, and the shoe takes on the first owners shape, no wonder the girls wear flip-flops, you can get them at the dollar store. JMO

Anonymous said...

And about wearing other peoples shoes(eeewe), it's probably not a good idea to wear anothers shoes... ###################################
I agree. The family cannot be that cheap that they can't buy those kids new shoes. And while they are at it, maybe a pair or two for Michelle that doesn't look like they were found in the convent dumpster.
Also, one show a few years ago showed JB and the boys at a thrift store, buying a used bunk bed, and the mattresses to go with it. I don't know about anyone else, but besides shoes, one thing I would never buy used is a mattress...eesh!

Celestie said...

Despite this fact, most parents in America pick the names of their children based on personal whim.

-----

Isn't that disingenuous? People of all walks of life come up with odd spellings such as Jinger or Phantazeeah, off the wall names such as Precious Puppy, revive old names such as Ivy, Chester, or Esther, or use trendy names, such as Aiden, Caden, Jayden, and yes Brooklyn. In my experience, most people give a great deal of consideration to what they name their babies.
I did not say that the Duggars were a cult, I said naming your children almost indistinguishable names, is one of things cults often do.

hannie said...

can someone post a working link to the pics.

mamawama said...

I did not attend the baby naming seminar, but my 19 and 13 yo daughters went to it. They said it was really funny. The speaker noted names of celebrity kids like " Radio Science". My daughter was shocked by that one, who wouldn't be? LOL

The speaker talked about his own kids names and why they chose them mostly. He has a Liberty, Justice, and Jubilee. I'm not sure of his other kids names, those just stuck out to me. I think it was supposed to be a fun seminar, and it wasn't a serious thing.

MamaWama said...

I wanted to share one more thing Michelle said during the baby conference. She said that after Josie was born JB asked the doctor how Michelle's uterus looked, and the Dr said that it looked amazingly well. Then, later on another dr came into Michelle's room and told her that her uterus looked great, and she told Michelle that she wasn't surprised because the uterus is a muscle and when you use a muscle it stays toned. I got the impression that Michelle was happy about that information. I just thought that was one of the most interesting things she said.

roddma said...

"The speaker noted names of celebrity kids like " Radio Science". My daughter was shocked by that one, who wouldn't be? LOL"

The actual name is "Audio Science Clayton" still weird enough Meredith Vierra pronounced "jinger" like "finger" lol "Jinger" pales in comparison to Moon Unit and Dweezel.

roddma said...

"The entire point to leaving it up to God is that GOD will determine if they will have another child."

Leaving it to"God' can take a dangerous turning point like with Josie. It's like saying you haven't got the brains to stop when tings go awry. Using birth control isn't less 'Godly' especially when it may save the mother's life.
There's also a such thing as overworking a muscle. For example, if you over-do push ups your arms will hurt. There's no way an uterus can be in great shape after 19 kids.

Anonymous said...

Proof the #20 is on the way or in the works.

Four c-sections would be reason enough not to tempt the fates. The near death experience with Josie would seal the fates, not to mention Michelle's age. It's just time to stop having kids, because otherwise she is going to be leaving 20 motherless children, which I can't imagine would be God's plan.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the Duggars making money off the DVD Sales from the Vision Forum Baby Conference (the Mother of the Year Award for Michelle).....

it is interesting to note that the Duggars very own book "20 and Counting" is available for purchase on the Vision Forum website, right there along with the DVD Collection from last weekend's Baby Conference.

JimBob has often been touted as a savvy businessman, so if his book is available for sale on the Vision Forum website, and JimBob/Michelle were filmed speakers at last weekend's conference, it's not too far a stretch to think that yes, they also make money off the DVD sales.

Tammy C said...

Doug Phillips must have been the speaker or his wife at the baby naming seminar.His children are named :Joshua, Justice, Liberty, Jubilee, Faith Evangeline, Honor, Providence, and Virginia Hope.

I truly think this was a serious seminar because some of the other names of VF children are strange:Knox Defender,Samuel Vision, Honor Triumph.


I guess the names are to be biblical in nature!

mythoughtis said...

Naturally. Any sane 43+ yr old women with 19 children, one of whom is a newly born micropremie would be overjoyed (not me) to hear that her uterus is very very sound.
Of course, being estastic about it it would be interfering with letting God determine the number of children you have... but since her real goal is to have children until she dies in childbirth, God's plans are unimportant.

Anonymous said...

When Michelle told the story at the Baby Conference about her doctors saying that her uterus was in great shape, did the doctor actually state that her uterus could withstand another pregnancy?

And of course Michelle is going to tell a story like that, after all she was at a baby conference and about to receive a Mother Of The Year Award. There's no way she'd stand up there and say something like, "the doctors stated I am doing fine now, but cautioned me against another pregnancy in order to preserve my life and prevent another premature infant from the harrowing months of treatment that Josie had to go through."

Michelle gave the conference attendees exactly what they WANTED to hear.

Anonymous said...

The speaker noted names of celebrity kids like " Radio Science".
--------------------------------------

You mean "Audio science", no celebrity has a child named radio science.

Anonymous said...

Just another contradiction in the Duggars' big modesty thing. Who in the world talks to a room full of people about the condition of her uterus? That is between a woman and her doctor. Where is the modesty now?
The fact that JB asked the doctor at all probably means he can't wait to start on the next kid, even though it was at a time when the current one was suffering and possibly not even going to make it.
If Michelle had half a brain she would have asked her doctor to tell JB that her uterus was in shreds and there should be no more pregnancies. Then he should have been immediately hauled off to the vasectomy OR.

Anonymous said...

re: Michelle's statement about her uterus

This, frankly, creeps me out big-time. Here they are worried about a wisp of "mommy skin" being shown and they're discussing Michelle's reproductive organs in public and proud as heck that it's in good shape?

That's just creepy-wrong in a thousand ways. To me, at least. Obviously their interpretation of modesty doesn't extend to a woman's private parts.

Creepy sad, imo.

*shivers*

Ollie said...

Agreed, and it is aggravating as h*ll. Thankfully, while the Duggars imitate the practices of those folks, they do not seem to display that condescending attitude or even the basic condescending beliefs.
***************************************************
I'll have to disagree with you on the last sentence. One of the reasons we stopped watching this show in our family was the constant use of "Normal families do this...(cue look of smug superiority)...but our family does that." I have a hard enough time teaching my children to follow our conservative Christian lifestyle but not look down on others without having to explain every week why the Duggars seem to feel it is alright.
To give the Duggars the benefit of the doubt, it may very well be that the director or producer is coaching them to say these things in order to highlight the differences in their lives and they just haven't figured out how to sound non-judgemetal when they say it, which given the statement would be difficult. In my mind it's admirable to feel confident about the beliefs and practices that work for you and to share them with anyone who is interested. It's another thing entirely to judge those who have different beliefs and to try to force your lifestyle on to them, as we see the Duggars try to do on occasion.

Anonymous said...

http://vimeo.com/13342511

M receives procreator of the year award. Be sure to take some antacids before watching.

bonehead said...

And the Duggars call themselves modest? Sorry the whole womb thing is more info then I care to hear. that is totally over the top.

Anonymous said...

I find it odd that after his wife delivers a 25 weeker that Jim Bob would ask how wife's uterus looks. I guess he was already thinking about the next one.

Anonymous said...

Justice, Liberty, and Jubilee, hmmm, he might not want to mention celebrity children's name when he named his children those names. Sounds like something a celebrity might name their child.

That was Doug Phillips that was the speaker, he also has children named Honor and Providence among others that were normal sounding names. I don't think I would want to be in any seminar that he was teaching about how to name my baby.

PreOwned is Cheaper said...

AS an L&D RN, I'd just like to dispel the misconception that a uterus stretched or "used" 19 times is in better condition than a lesser used uterus.

The uterus is far more complex than skeletal muscle, so to extrapolate that use of the uterine muscle renders it somehow stronger, similar to skeltal muscle, is incorrect.


I don't think M Dugger is going to find a single solitary OB GYN who is going to truthfully tell her that she OR her uterus are in great shape for more pregnancies.

Also have a question for Duggar fans: when did the Duggars begin all their 'ministry', i.e., speaking at conferences, sending kids to missions, etc. Has this occurred only since their appearance on tv and its subsequent 'fame'?

Anonymous said...

@Tammy C: when I first glanced your comment, I thought the name chosen was "Virginal Hope". Made me laugh. Glad they didn't saddle a child with that one!

Cyn said...

They have been doing the seminars in their houses for over 15 years. They have been doing the missions work with the orphanage in Guatemala since before 2004. Josh went and I think a few of the older girls had gone before the first one we saw filmed. That though has nothing to do with the fame as much as the ages of the children, and having the money to pay for the trips.

They were helping families and missionaries (you have to dig now for the news reports and the blog one liners) before the Duggars ever hit TV.

Somethings most on this blog seem to have forgotten is the only reason we knew about the award,the mission trip this summer, or the movie things, or the trips back to TN is because of other BLOGS. The Duggars didn't announce it on national TV, so far it hasn't been in their show (though some could be this fall). It barely made a blip on the local TV stations, if it did at all.

The Duggars aren't the ones promoting their self importance these BLOGS are!... Negative or positively it's the blogs that have gone viral over the Duggars and it's where we get most of our news from... With a few highly inaccurate articles from People magazine thrown in now and then.

This is just my opinion but if we on the blogs quit spreading the news about their movie trips, their missionary trips, and their awards honestly who would have know outside the few that were involved with them?

Tammy C said...

I had to laugh at the name of this seminar from the VF conference.It probably was a good seminar but the name reminded me of when Michele called Josie a kitten .

Children as Pets

MandySue said...

Here's my question-

Who asks a doctor how your uterus is doing?

I have NEVER thought to ask that particular question and I have NEVER heard one of my friends say "My doctor said my uterus is in good condition"

Suzie said...

Cyn, small correction. They go to El Salvador, not Guatemala. A thread from this very blog proves that:

http://duggarswithoutpity.blogspot.com/2009/02/duggars-in-el-salvador-feb-17-2009.html

Doing "mission work" can be as simple as packing supplies on this end, which is what I imagine the Duggars, as many of us, did before they hit the big time, got their show and were able to essentially say to the rest of the unwashed masses: "Look at US! I can bring my HUGE family here!!" then condescendingly brag about his surviving children to the woman who had lost several babies and small children.

Sorry JB, there are just some times when bragging about your virility or passing out a postcard to prove said virility are not appropriate. That kind of stuff makes me question JB's real motives; I don't think they're as pure as many accredit them.

The mention of a uterus in any public setting that doesn't involve one's OB-GYN is NOT modest and I'm about as socially liberal and potty-mouthed as they come. Sorry, I don't walk around talking why I can or can't have babies to complete strangers. BUT, I might consider it if I got a hefty paycheck for my time. I'd pass on the silver plate.

Anonymous said...

That "Thank you Michelle" video from the Vision Forum conference was about as creepy as the guy doing the introduction. I am a Christian and I have no issue with Michelle Duggar but I don't understand what qualifies her as "Mother of the Year".It seems to me that people who follow this ideology think she is somewhat better or more blessed because she has been able to produce 19 children.I notice how whenever they go to conferences like Vision Forum or others the women seem to proudly announce how many children they have.If the have 8 or more they seem to hold their heads higher and have a real sense of pride. If they have less than that, they seem shame, almost like failures "Oh I only have 6" they say in a down tone.Six is still considered a lot of children IMO. Large Christian families are nothing new.I am Catholic and know plenty super size families.I just don't get it.

MOM IN TEXAS

Sharla said...

If you have a comment that didn't go through, I probably perceived it as snippy, off topic, or both.

Thanks.

Sharla said...

Oh, and can we find something to talk about besides the putative state of Michelle's uterus. That's getting kind of creepy feeling to me. Thanks.

Cyn said...

Knew I'd get nailed lol for not checking my facts before I posted... couldn't think of the country and was to lazy to go check the facts, thanks for correcting me!!

The 'public forum' Michelle was speaking in was about children and child birth... that would be where I would expect to hear these topics discussed. Michelle wasn't just blurting things out in the middle of a busy street corner to any one that would listen.

We assume (but do not know) they were being paid to be guest speakers and or panelists (JimBob), to speak on child raising, about Josie, having children (labor and birth)and other such topics.

I can't see where this is about modesty... She's having a talk and answering questions about the topics I outlined above. Michelle is nothing if not polite; if some one asks her a question she will answer it, even if she thinks the question itself is rude. But here we are discussing a group of women that paid to hear her talk about these very topics, she's using technical words for it and I seriously doubt she offered to show any one her "battle scars". Where would modesty come into play?

Anonymous said...

Ollie said:
I'll have to disagree with you on the last sentence. One of the reasons we stopped watching this show in our family was the constant use of "Normal families do this...(cue look of smug superiority)...but our family does that." I h
===========================

Good point. I think they could still discuss how they handle various issues without the constant inclusion of the phrase, "most people do it that way" or something similar. Especially by now, their viewing audience is well aware that the Duggars are far from mainstream and do almost everything differently from mainstream America.

For example, Josh when discussing how he and Anna were extras on a "Christian" movie set, could have simply said: "It was a wonderful experience, being able to participate on a movie that we think will be worthwhile and support our values. We were so pleased to volunteer our time and we met many others who gladly volunteered as well." All positive, no need to act as if those who actually earn a living by being paid as an extra are somehow lesser by doing so. After all, we all need to work and earn money.

Sharla, your recent comment made me laugh and I promise not to discuss internal organs.

My annoyance with the Mother of the Year nonsense is that they focus so much on how many children she has produced, as if that's the criterion by which we can tell who is the best sort of mother. Common sense tells us that's not so. The conservative religious movement the Duggars follow is so limiting to women. Their highest achievement is having lots and lots of babies. I really wonder what anguish some women must go through who either can't have children of their own, or only have a few. I just have a feeling that they are made to feel inferior, like they've failed at the only thing women are good for in that society.

mamawama said...

Yes, audio science! Sorry about that. My daughter mentioned it again to me and I realized I had gotten it wrong in my post.

I think the reason Michelle shared that information at the conference is because she is talking to a room full of women who have or want to have large families.You have to consider that this was an unusual audience. So, it was nice to hear that the doctors haven't told her that her body is falling apart. It wasn't like she was sharing it with People magazine.

Anonymous said...

I recently watched a rerun of one of the early one-hour Duggar specials.

At one point, the family is getting ready to move from their old home to the temporary rental property because the new house wasn't finished yet. A lot of friends had gathered in the living room for a meal (lunch?) and then to help start loading trucks.


JimBob stands up in the living room and is talking about starting to move things and then he pauses and says,
"Oh, the WOMEN need to clean out the refrigerator."

So, my question is, in the Duggar system of families, it's not possible that a man or younger Duggar boy can help clean out the refrigerator? That's a woman's job?

Anonymous said...

I guess they believe that modesty is only concieved through ones eyes. Hearing about anything private is okay, but to see it, that's off limits. I don't understand why they contradict their own standards.

maynardsmom said...

Many of us have checked out the Gothard,vision forum and all of the other links. It is strange but I guess if that is all you know it is normal. My hope is that the show is over. In my opinion the multiple reality shows all need to be removed from tv. I honestly dont care how these people raise and support all these kids. It was interesting at first but now it all seems like one big money making machine. It's not ok to exploit your family this way.

Sharla said...

Several comments were addressed to me about shutting off certain discussions last night. Some positive and some negative. I need to explain some of the reasoning. First I'm reading the comments that get rejected that the readers don't see. I can see the trends taking shape. There were four comments in the queue already of women's personal stories about their reproductive situations. I did not want to sit through any more of that nor did I think our general readership cared to either.

To the person who so kindly wished to educate me on the role of a blog mod, may I say that as the owner of a blog, I do get to decide the direction of discussion and it is absolutely my right to set the rules, change the rules, and decide on lines of discussion.

I hope that clarifies things a bit. Also if your comment doesn't go through and you know how I am about snippy arguments, you might want to go see if the comment you were responding to is still there.

I'm now going to be the grump in the corner until this migraine goes away.

DianeD said...

Is there room in the corral for the beaten, dead horse named "Mommy Skin" ?

Anonymous said...

"I think the reason Michelle shared that information at the conference is because she is talking to a room full of women who have or want to have large families."
-----------------------------------
This is exactly what bothers me. If it's true that Quiverful families are happy with whatever God decides with regard to their number of children, then why do they laude large families the way they do? Why do they all "want to have a large family" rather than all wanting to have what God decides is right for them, which may be none, one, two, etc.? If Quiverfuls really believe in having the number of children God wants them to have, then I agree, the Duggars and others like them are not Quiverful, because their goal is to have large families, specifically, which is an entirely different thing.

Anonymous said...

With regard to women cleaning the refrigerator... maybe that was one of the least physically taxing activities, so it was actually nice of JB to assign the other tasks to the men? I agree that at first it sounded sexist to prescribe the kitchen role to the women, but at the same time, as a woman, I'd rather the men did the heavy lifting and such. So maybe he was saying it as a way of giving them a break.

Jen said...

JimBob stands up in the living room and is talking about starting to move things and then he pauses and says,
"Oh, the WOMEN need to clean out the refrigerator."

So, my question is, in the Duggar system of families, it's not possible that a man or younger Duggar boy can help clean out the refrigerator? That's a woman's job?

---------------------------------
Interesting. That wasn't my take on the comment.
I saw Michelle trying to tell him that he had forget something that was in the plan (maybe she had even reminded him of what she wanted to do). I also assume with what needed to be done in a short amount of time with the many volunteers that the responsibilities were divided out/shared. It would have already been decided who did what. I assume if the plan had been for the boys to unload the fridge Jim Bob would of said "Oh and the boys need to unload the fridge" not that he thought it was woman's work.

Cyn said...

If I remember correctly Jim said the men would start with the fridge then Michelle pulled him down a bit and said the women needed to empty it first. Then he announced the women would need to empty it first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFYTh35wUU&feature=related (Scene we are talking about starts at roughly 9.34)

I was a bit off, JimBob said the fridge would be next then MICHELLE volunteered the ladies to clean it out first, I assumed because Michelle basically whispered it to him he just repeated it louder.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I do not think the goal of the Duggars and those they spoke to is to have large families, the goal is to leave the number of children up to God.

It is just common that those who do not do any type of BC will most likely have large families. Thus, she addressed the issue of having large families as those in her audience may be experiencing large families. If the topic of their session was how to handle large families I would gather that most of the ones in the audience have an interest in such a topic.

I have QF and only one child. I did not use birth control and ended up being blessed with one child through adoption. I attended a session at a homeschooling conference on large families even though I had one child so I know that even if you did not have a large family a person may be interested in how to handle large families or how well a uterous holds up after so many children.

I still hold that I would not be surprised if the Duggars waivered their fee to such a conference as they like to sow into the lives of others. They may be able to do some things pro bono being they have enough to live on rather comfortably to support their families through the TLC contract money and their other business adventures. Note that I am not assuming or stating a fact. I just would not be surprised if that is what happened, if that is the case.

Anonymous said...

If Michelle Duggar was truly a candidate for "Mother of the Year" then she would have STAYED HOME with Josie and accepted the award via proxy (JimBob or one of the daughters).

Celestie said...

I still hold that I would not be surprised if the Duggars waivered their fee to such a conference as they like to sow into the lives of others.

----

I would equally be surprised, if they did not receive a very large fee and other considerations, after all, this is how they make a living.

Anonymous said...

When do the duggars come back Aug 3rd?

Anonymous said...

If JimBob wants to be an "encouragement" for others, than perhaps he could purchase some Learn-to-Speak-Spanish tapes (used, of course, save the difference!), study them, and that way the next time TLC films him in ElSalvador, he wont' be saying:

"Back-o Away-o"....(reference: the episode where he's in ElSalvador with the older Duggar children).

Nicole said...

Re: the comments about how Michelle received the mother of the year award simply for having 19 kids...that quantity = award.

One of the things that is amazing about the Duggars (and one of the reasons many viewers say is their reason for watching) is that Michelle has SO MANY and she still functions, the family functions, the house still functions.

I know several large families, and at any given time when you visit their home, you find total chaos (and I'm not talking just the kids running around like you see on some Duggar shows), unwashed children with uncombed hair, dirty clothes, just running amok. They wake up when they want and go to bed when they want. They eat what and when they want. Spills and food on every surface. Kids watching TV all day. Mom is just trying to keep up and is overwhelmed with just the basics of daily life.

I am expecting my 8th child, and pregnancy is hard, postpartum is hard, as anyone who's had a baby knows, especially with more children to take care of and a demanding household to run. It's hard to keep a smile on your face when you are feeling sick, hard to stay patient when you are sleep-deprived for weeks on end after a new baby.

Michelle Duggar has had twice the number of pregnancies and babies that I have. Yet, her household still runs. She still smiles and according to her children she doesn't raise her voice or snap at her children. Her children are up and dressed each day, meals are served on time, children are in bed in the evening. School still happens on days it's supposed to, it appears. The house appears clean and organized, and runs like a well-oiled machine.

I know that there is the thing about "that house only functions because of the girls!" All I know is, that even with me assigning significant chores and responsibilites to my older ones, there is still tons. and. tons. of work for me every day. And the day still doesn't happen without my supervision, and the chores the kids are assigned don't get done without my checking and supervision. There are days when I don't want to get up and make the day happen because I know the work and difficulties that lie ahead of me, and it's tempting to just let the kids get up when they want, watch TV, find what they want to eat, while I hide in my room and try to get some time to myself while the house falls apart around me. I'll admit that I have done this some days.

My point is, that I don't think it's just the number of kids that Michelle is being honored for, or even deserves recognition for. What is commendable here is that what Michelle has done is HARD - being pregnant and giving birth that many times has got to be incredibly hard, not to mention physically impossible for most women. I think it is two things: One, that she is dedicated to her cause. She didn't know she'd have that many, she didn't know how hard it would be, but she keeps going with what she feels God wants for her, regardless of how big it seems. She got way more than she bargained for. And second, she has been able to maintain a home and family that functions, that seem happy, and she is raising her children to serve God and be unselfish, which is her goal.

I know we all disagree on Michelle's childraising philosophies and practices, and even if Christian is the right way to raise our kids or is morally superior. I disagree with some things myself, but that is to be expected since we are all different people. But, what Michelle has done and is doing is impressive, beyond just the number of children alone.

There are many Mother of the Year Awards given out by other organizations to women with smaller families, and rightfully so as there are many different ways moms parent and good mothers are everywhere. So Michelle doesn't have the corner on the market, but I think a strong case can be made that she is a good mother who has done impressive things, and I think her award is well-deserved.

Anonymous said...

JMO, M. Duggar seems to be a relatively nice person. She has some commendable traits.

Everyone is, of course, entitled to their own opinion of things, including the Duggars.

My personal take is that I do not believe turning one's family size over to god is, by definition, an ethical gold standard. I realize some disagree, and that's ok with me. Whatever works for each of us.

Further, I'd be more inclined to give a Mother of the Year award to a mom who also works outside the home, trying to provide income for her family as well as keep the home fires burning. JMO, that is a much taller order than simply having enough kids that the older ones can be counted on to provide daily assistance with running the home, while the wife depends solely on the hubs to provide family income.

Steve knight said...

That Michelle does not look frazzled like most moms would shows how little she is involved in running the family. but also the children have been trained up to only show joy to never show anger so you don't see as much chaos as in most houses.
but we see that breaking down as Michelle spends less and less time with the children. that they are never taught to think for themselves they can't deal with the lack of direction.

Anonymous said...

If the number of children makes one a good mother, Michelle certainly deserves that award.

Aside from pure procreation...not so much.

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