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2. No online petitions.
3. Do not be rude about the children or call them names. Commenting on the behaviour that we have seen is acceptable, but no name calling.
4. Do not refer to calling CPS or use the term child abuse unless we something that actually is abusive.
5. Watch profanity.
6. Don't tell the moderators how to run the blog.
7. Be careful about boards on boards and please don't discuss or provide links to other Duggar boards.
8. No diagnosing mental/medical conditions.
9. No posting addresses.
10. Along with not being rude don't tell other people how to think, act, or behave - don't try to tell other people what to do or not do.
11. No using the kids' names or moderators' as your screen name.
12. Comments including "I'm sure you won't print this" will never be printed.
13. No unsolicited recaps. We are not recapping the Duggar shows.
14. The administrators are not able to verify the identity of people who comment here. Believe what you choose to believe.
15. Please use proper grammar, spelling, capitalizations and punctuations in your comments. No instant message type speaking.
16. Please refrain from beating the dead horses such as Josh's years ago expressed interest in law school. If the Duggars have moved on, so should we.
388 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 388 of 388My point is, that I don't think it's just the number of kids that Michelle is being honored for, or even deserves recognition for. What is commendable here is that what Michelle has done is HARD - being pregnant and giving birth that many times has got to be incredibly hard, not to mention physically impossible for most women.
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While I'm aware that pregnancy can make for a hard, even miserable, 9 months, what I fail to understand is why birthing 19 children makes her "Mother of the Year." A woman can push out as many children as God or biology allows, but it doesn't necessarily make her a good mother.
If they were giving her the "You've been pregnant 17(?) times and produced 19 children to carry on the QF lifestyle, good job!" award, then by all means, I think she's a deserving candidate.
But Mother of the Year? Not by a long shot.
Of course, I know my vote doesn't really count, given the organization in question. ;)
How could someone say she doesn't deserve mother of the year. She does a LOT more than procreate.
She has raised 19 amazing, caring children that have a good set of values.
She never yells and is consistent with her discipline.
She spends time equally with all children.
She tends to the emotional needs of all of them.
She is doing an amazing job. 19 kids! Amazing! I do not know anyone who would be more patient than she is with all the kids. I'm telling you, she's doing a darn good job!
Michelle has even admitted that she would not be able to handle the children or the household without the older girls. How utterly unfair to them.
Yes, Michelle can say that God has given her all these children, but one should only have as many as one can handle, as a parent, without relying on the first-born set to raise the subsequent flock. God also gave us dedicated doctors and scientists who developed birth control so that women do not have to go through pregnancy after pregnancy that they cannot handle.
If a couple can raise 19 by themselves, and let the older ones grow and develop and fly from the nest when they come of age, more power to them. But this is not the case with the Duggars.
:She has raised 19 amazing, caring children that have a good set of values.
She never yells and is consistent with her discipline.
She spends time equally with all children.
She tends to the emotional needs of all of them."
How do we know that they have good values because they are christian? Most still live at home with no outside responsibilities.
She never yells because the children have been trained up to be obedient. They can't show if they are unhappy or sad.
How can it be said she spends equal time with them when they a
have to schedule time to be with her? are you saying that everyone gets that equal 20 minutes once a week or however long it is? There is no way one person can emotional needs of 20 children. there is just not enough time in the day. now with a preemie the younger kids will not hardly get any attention.
She spends time equally with all children.
She tends to the emotional needs of all of them.
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Impossible, there is just not enough time in the day or the week to spend time with each child enough to be meaningful.
Jordyn and Jenny don't even know their mother. They cry for "Dill" (Jill), the only mother-figure they know.
It's sad actually. There is a birth mother, and then the real mothers who are actually the teen daughters. If Michelle received Mother of the Year, the four oldest girls should have gone up with her to share the award.
"How do we know that they have good values because they are christian? Most still live at home with no outside responsibilities.
She never yells because the children have been trained up to be obedient. They can't show if they are unhappy or sad.
How can it be said she spends equal time with them when they a
have to schedule time to be with her?"
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I so agree on all points. Especially have to question the 'good values' of being trained not to show true emotion. Further, IMO, teaching kids to be unquestioningly obedient is also less than a great moral 'value'.
Just because the Duggars consider a particular 'value' 'christian' does not mean it is, by definition, the highest level of morality.
IMO this isn't about ethics, it's about control.
As for having to schedule mom time - I get a bigger block of time when I call a business mtg for my team, so I'm thinking that having so many kids as to require scheduling 15-20 minutes of face time with mom falls short of great mothering/great 'values'.
"She has raised 19 amazing, caring children that have a good set of values."
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How can we possibly know the 19 are 'amazing, caring'? To date, only one has escaped the compound to start an adult life.
Some might argue that stifling all genuine emotion and unquestioning obedience are less than great moral values.
I was just going to post about how are they amazing? I think people see christian and famous on tv and they get thinking that makes someone amazing. all all it means is they are on tv. people on tv and not amazing for the most part.
so far the children have done far less then most kids their age so I just don't understand the amazing part.
How could someone say she doesn't deserve mother of the year. She does a LOT more than procreate.
She has raised 19 amazing, caring children that have a good set of values.
She never yells and is consistent with her discipline.
She spends time equally with all children.
She tends to the emotional needs of all of them.
She is doing an amazing job. 19 kids! Amazing! I do not know anyone who would be more patient than she is with all the kids. I'm telling you, she's doing a darn good job!
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This whole statement sounds like something I would say while being sarcastic...
I think most realize that the girls do a lion's share of the work and that Michelle actually spends very little meaningful face time with them.
It is impossible to meet the mental and emotional needs of 19 children. JB and M checked out a long time ago..(soon after they discovered the "buddy" system) the only needs they seem to care about are their own
I read an interview on the tlc blog in which the guy in charge of sound (Jim) mentioned that the Duggars are absolutely not judgemental. While they may take extreme stands on certain social, religious, and political issues, they are very accepting of people regardless of what their positions may be. Reading this also made me think of how Michelle and Jim Bob seem to differ from their children. M and JB used to be in a totally different place with their lives (M was a cheerleader, she and JB practiced birth control, etc.) and know in a way that their children really can´t what it´s like to think that kissing someone that you aren´t married to is normal and raising a family with 10 kids isn´t. Their children have only lived with a world view in which their parents´adult choices are the norm and so I think that the children are probably more conservative and possibly less open minded than their parents. I saw this play out in the episode where Michelle picks out a wedding dress. While Michelle wanted a modest (as defined by the Duggars)dress, she wasn´t judgemental about the choices that other women around her were making. Anna and the Duggar girls seemed a bit more bothered by the dresses that other costumers were trying on. At least that´s how it seemed to me.
Their children have only lived with a world view in which their parents´adult choices are the norm and so I think that the children are probably more conservative and possibly less open minded than their parents.
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And that should be when the parents explain to the children that just because someone else's choices are different than your own doesn't make them a bad person and that it RUDE and JUDGMENTAL to roll your eyes and make statements about their choices.
I think that is a favorite Duggar past time- "Most people do this but WE do that"
And while we are beating this horse- JB and M got to make their own choices (dresses, bc, make-up, school, etc) Why are their children not allowed to make those same choices? Who do they not trust? The children or their raising of the children?
I question the whole reason Vision Forum chose Michelle to receive the award,which was,IMO,strictly a business decision.They knew choosing her would net attention to themselves,which is what they were after in the first place.JMO.
I don't understand why people keep saying "she has raised 19 children" when all but three or four of her children are still being raised. Really you could say that she has only one grown child since Josh seems to be the only one who is out on his own that we really know about, and frankly I"m not too impressed with Josh. Sure he has his own business, but it's one that was given to him and that seems to function more as a setting for him to use when he appears on the show rather than an actual car lot.
I would love to see an episode where they show how Josh runs his business, that could really be interesting and show just how into it he really is. They could also explain why Josh seems to always buy really run down cars and how he decides to price them the way he does. I know we saw the business in the Anna selling a car episode, but considering she'd been working with Josh for a year and didn't have any idea how to fill out the basic paperwork makes me wonder how much work really goes on there.
Especially have to question the 'good values' of being trained not to show true emotion.
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I've been seeing this thought process for weeks and I'm a bit confused by it. I haven't seen all the shows (due to the fact I have no cable) but where was it ever discussed that they train the children to not show true emotion? If it wasn't in the show or in an article somewhere what gave you (and others) the impression that they aren't to show true emotion.
And please the reason I am sincerely asking is because in this same thread people are talking about how the Duggars and especially the kids are 'rolling their eyes', or 'making judgmental comments', or making faces in general...
Which to me and others show emotions and they wouldn't be the emotions I would assume the Duggars wouldn't want the kids to show, since even us HillBillies (I is one so I cans call them one)knows is rude.
"Anonymous said...
How could someone say she doesn't deserve mother of the year. She does a LOT more than procreate.
She has raised 19 amazing, caring children that have a good set of values.
She never yells and is consistent with her discipline.
She spends time equally with all children.
She tends to the emotional needs of all of them.
She is doing an amazing job. 19 kids! Amazing! I do not know anyone who would be more patient than she is with all the kids. I'm telling you, she's doing a darn good job!"
How can you say that while it's clearly the teenage girls who are doing the parenting?
"where was it ever discussed that they train the children to not show true emotion?"
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The Duggars don't HAVE to discuss this as part of their family code - it is obvious. How much genuine emotion have they ever shown us, though they pretend theirs is a 'reality' show?
Mrs. D cries about one miscarriage out of 20 pregnancies AND about alcohol sales. Other than that, she's straight out of Stepford.
No matter how saintly, all moms sometimes waiver in their patience.
No matter how stellar the parenting, siblings sometimes have conflict amongst themselves.
Even the most perfectly matched spouses have their challenges.
UNLESS they are all clones OR by the rules of Duggar Patriarchy, it is verboten to disagree, verboten to show anything but a smiling countenance, and, certainly verboten to show (gasp!) anger.
Just one example: do you seriously contend that all of the girls wanted to go give blood? How much latitude were they given, though certainly old enough to have made their OWN decision about this. DADDY said 'we're doing this' and so it was.
Starting with the blanket training, including the eerily tranquil mom and the cheesy ever-smiling dad, with a list longer than 19 arms of thou shalt nots - what's to be discussed? Going along with the program, that is, unquestioning obedience (and never acknowledging muchless expressing ANY frustration or disagreement about it), is woven into the very fabric of their family dynamic.
Each to their own, and JMO: I find this less than great parenting.
"where was it ever discussed that they train the children to not show true emotion?"
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The Duggar House Guidelines which are posted on their website clearly states that you should always show happy emotions even if you don't feel well or you have been mistreated.
Children raised by teenagers do not turn out like the Duggars. The teen girls may be helpful, but there is a lot more to parenting than cooking a meal and tying shoes. The children are taught and guided by the parents obviously.
Michelle talks about how much the older girls help because she is "encouraging" them. The one thing I took away from Michelle's talk at the Vision Forum conference was to praise, praise, praise your children all they time.
I think Michelle spends plenty of time with her children. She doesn't send them to school or daycare. She is there if they need her all day long. I could understand if she put her kids in public school, and she worked and she didn't see them until 5:30 every night and then she had to do dinner, baths, and homework. But she is with her children more hours than most moms, AND JB is there too usually.
"I think Michelle spends plenty of time with her children. She doesn't send them to school or daycare. She is there if they need her all day long. I could understand if she put her kids in public school, and she worked and she didn't see them until 5:30 every night and then she had to do dinner, baths, and homework. But she is with her children more hours than most moms, AND JB is there too usually."
It's good to know that some things never change. Glad to know that the "most moms" do that BUT "we do that" mantra continues.
What I've found from real-life experience (versus what the Duggars and Vision Forum say) is that "being home all day" in the house does NOT equate to "spending time with the children." If delegating most of the household duties (including home schooling) while mom is on the computer posting to/chatting with with her "like-minded" friends or absorbed in her next pregnancy and/or bed-ridden for months on end is what constitutes "being there with the kids", then by golly, they are right.
mamawama said:
I think Michelle spends plenty of time with her children. She doesn't send them to school or daycare. She is there if they need her all day long. I could understand if she put her kids in public school, and she worked and she didn't see them until 5:30 every night and then she had to do dinner, baths, and homework. But she is with her children more hours than most moms, AND JB is there too usually.
Let's do the math. Based simply on potential time one working woman versus Michelle could spend with their offspring. Assumptions - 14 available hours per day (8 hours sleeping, 2 hours unavailable due to whatever) for both women.
working mom
weekdays - 1 hour before work - 4 hours after work x 5 days a week = 25 hours
weekends - 14 hours per day x 2 = 28
total hours to spend with children = 53 divided by 2 kids that's 26.5 hours to potentially spend with those kids
Michelle Duggar
14 hours per day x 7 days a week = 98
divided by 18 children is 5.4 hours per week per child
let's give Michelle some more leeway and take off at least 2(?) more kids since they really are adults. 98 divided by 16 is 6.1 hours.
This is by no means a reflection of the quality of the time but just a mathematical representation of why it is highly unlikely Michelle can give her kids as much attention as a mom (working or stay at home) with a more average number of kids. Put a few other numbers in for yourselves, more common family sizes of 3, 4 or 6 kids, still lots of time for attention but a pie can only be cut so many ways before the pieces get mighty thin.
"The children are taught and guided by the parents obviously."
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And therein lies the problem ! The younger Duggars have some discipline problems. The hitting, throwing, yanking, stomping on backs, arguing with mom about homework, saying that things they've participated in are "weird", the holding of noses & rolling of eyes.
There's a YouTube video called Duggar Discipline where Michelle is trying to give an interview and she's got Johannah on her lap....she has to tell Johannah OVER AND OVER to sit still, be quiet, etc, while Jackson is squirming around interrupting and whining....The children don't stop the behavior ! It's appalling !
Yes, she keeps saying it with patience, but if they child keeps repeating the behavior all within a few minutes, then how effective is that parenting method? A "sweet" voice does not equal effective parenting.
How are they trained not to show emotion? Here are some example of them showing TRUE emotion:
-Michelle and Jim Bob showing fear and sadness when Josie was born so early.
-Crying at Grandpa Duggar's funeral.
-Jim Bob being stressed when blood was being drawn.
If that's not real emotion, I don't know what is.
Question: (and apologies if it's already been answered!)
Has it ever been determined exactly what sort of level of education the Duggar children end up with?
Do they get a GED? And if they don't, then what does this entail for their future outside of the Duggar family?
I support homeschooling to a degree, but if the end result is an undereducated adult who can't function in society (get a job, pay taxes, etc.) then the program isn't working.
I've never really seen much discussion about the education other than it's on the computer and homeschooling and a few field trips here and there.
I do think the Duggars could use a bit of outside schooling if only to have the children mingle with other children. The homeschooling conferences and the church meetings are nice, but no substitute for mingling with other children. Even if it's only in a mall or a store a child needs to have outside input.
jmo, ymmv.
thanks, all!
IMHO, the older Duggar female blessings do a lot more than cooking and tying shoes. We have seen them grocery shop, launder all the clothes for the entire family, comfort and deal with a vomiting little blessing, etc. I don't think that JB and M hear the little ones through the night, and probably the older ones tend to their needs, as their cribs are in the girls' dormitory.
During the "family" outings, JB and M usually stroll in front of the rest, holding hands and displaying public affection. Who is making sure the little blessings are safe and their needs met? JMHO.
The older girls and their work around the house and with the little ones probably should be another dead horse issue.
"The children are taught and guided by the parents obviously."
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And therein lies the problem ! The younger Duggars have some discipline problems. The hitting, throwing, yanking, stomping on backs, arguing with mom about homework, saying that things they've participated in are "weird", the holding of noses & rolling of eyes.
There's a YouTube video called Duggar Discipline where Michelle is trying to give an interview and she's got Johannah on her lap....she has to tell Johannah OVER AND OVER to sit still, be quiet, etc, while Jackson is squirming around interrupting and whining....The children don't stop the behavior ! It's appalling !
Yes, she keeps saying it with patience, but if they child keeps repeating the behavior all within a few minutes, then how effective is that parenting method? A "sweet" voice does not equal effective parenting.
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This short video episode mentioned above seems to me to be evidence that they children are taught and guided by the parents.
A sweet voice can equal effective parenting. Immediate compliance does not always equate to effective parenting.
This seems to me to demonstrate the difference in training a child and raising a child. It appears to me that the Duggar parents are trying to raise children even though they use the words train a child.
; )
Once again, we have two disparate threads again argues by Duggar un-supporters.
1. The kids are terribly happy but we don't see it because they are taught strict obedience and are never allowed to show any emotion. (Option: Preface statement with "Michelle is a bad mother because...")
2. The kids are let go and horribly disobedient because we see them crying and screaming and beating up on each other all the time. (Option: Preface statement with "Michelle is a bad mother because...")
Can it truly be both? Can't figure out how to reconcile those...
Parents who send their children to public school and fix dinner, do homework, and give baths are actually spending more time with their children than Michelle because she does none of that. She doesn't give her children baths, the buddies do, she doesn't cook, the designated person who has that jurisdiction does, she doesn't school the older girls teach the younger. Shoot we even saw Johannah teaching Jennifer for crying out loud. All of those things are spending time with your children.
The older Duggar kids were raised by their parents, the younger Duggar kids are being raised by their siblings. It will be interesting to see if the younger ones are the same as their older siblings when they are their ages. They are not well behaved children like some people portray them to be. In their specials the older siblings did not act like their younger siblings do now. That is becuase Michelle actually was involved with her kids, now she is involved with her career and awards and speaking engagements.
I don't dislike the Duggar's, I don't know them, but I don't watch their show with rose colored glasses on and see everything they do as wonderful. They have faults just like every other family.
Anonymous said:
This is by no means a reflection of the quality of the time but just a mathematical representation of why it is highly unlikely Michelle can give her kids as much attention as a mom (working or stay at home) with a more average number of kids. Put a few other numbers in for yourselves, more common family sizes of 3, 4 or 6 kids, still lots of time for attention but a pie can only be cut so many ways before the pieces get mighty thin.
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That was a really useful illustration. I agree, no matter how you slice it, there is only so much time in any given day that a parent can spend in the presence of their children. Mathematically, there is no way that Michelle can give the same amount of time to her many many children that a mother who is caring for 2 or 3, or even 4, can do. Even with the three older girls as nannies, that would still leave 15 children among which Michelle must divide her time and attention.
Not to mention that the youngest needs the most time and attention of them all.
While I won't dispute the right of any woman to have lots of children, I just can't buy into the claim that because that woman stays at home, and keeps her children at home, that she actually spends more time with them than your average mom with 2-4 children, working outside the home or otherwise.
It's a fact that Michelle could not do what she does, if she didn't have the help of three full-time assistants who do all the hard work around that house, plus take care of their younger siblings. Your average mom is coping on her own, and/or with the help of her husband when he's home from work.
Based on numbers alone, I'd give Michelle credit for raising about 5 of those kids mostly on her own, but beyond that, she's had live-in assistance that most moms do not have.
And therein lies the problem ! The younger Duggars have some discipline problems. The hitting, throwing, yanking, stomping on backs, arguing with mom about homework, saying that things they've participated in are "weird", the holding of noses & rolling of eyes.
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I keep thinking back to the wedding dress shopping episode, where the little kids are climbing over furniture, under tables and generally being rowdy. No one is controlling, or even interested in their behavior. Granted a bridal shop is no place for little boys and most little girls, but since they took them there, they should have been in the parents control. It was most unfair to the other brides.
"While I won't dispute the right of any woman to have lots of children, I just can't buy into the claim that because that woman stays at home, and keeps her children at home, that she actually spends more time with them than your average mom with 2-4 children, working outside the home or otherwise."
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Well I'm certainly not going to get into an argument about which way is better, because I don't think one can be made (different strokes for different folks, yadda yadda yadda).
But yes, parents have LOTS more time with their kids if they homeschool them than if they send them to school, especially if said children do not participate in sports teams or drama troupes, etc. And many (not all) parents who stay home have more time with their outside-school-educated children than many (not all) parents who work.
Also, JimBob is home a LOT more than the average working dad, and in the interest of gender equality (a rare concept in the Duggar world, I admit, but bear with me), time with him should count as individual attention also. To be fair, by ATI standards he seems awfully hands-on.
So pre-Josie you really had a 1:9 adult to child ratio, without any interference from outside schooling, activities, or employment, which would probably equal more time than your average full-time working mother with 4+ children. Harder than average to stay connected, sure, but doable, IMO.
Michelle may be in the house with the kids but she's not with them.
The thing about emotions-the kids are snarky because they are kids, they rough house because they are kids.That is not emotion.
Can you really say that all 3 of the older girls want to be where they are and are happy with the situation? But we have never seen them be anything but sweet.
You know when your younger siblings get in your stuff you are mad and you want to scream and yell and tell them to not to touch your stuff...but the girls grab whatever it is the younger kids have of theirs and go on. That is an emotion I want to see. Get angry, get upset because you are cooking a meal for 30 again and your mom is no where to be found and there are kids getting into the stuff you need. That is emotion.
Jim Bob and Michelle are hardly stay at home parents. I think Jim Bob and Michelle probably travel a lot more than the "average" family with all their speaking engagements that they go to. They may bring the kids with them but it is not them taking care of them while they are working. They also do a lot of interviews that are not ever on the show or really known publicly like when they are on the Today show. One video I saw on the internet had Jim Bob saying they had done up to something like 30 different interviews in one week. Sometimes they may be by phone but that means they are focused on the interview not the children.
Jim Bob and Michelle may not have jobs where they go punch a clock but they are certainly working parents and not stay at home parents focused on their children daily like a lot of stay at home moms I know.
Just because a mother and in this case father are at home does not mean their time is spent focusing on their children. One can be bodily present yet emotionally absent at the same time.
The older girls and their work around the house and with the little ones probably should be another dead horse issue.
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If and when the older girls' responsibility is scaled back to a more appropriate amount, then I agree it could be a dead issue. As long as they are continuing to be unpaid nannies, housekeepers and teachers for their younger siblings, I don't see how it could be a dead issue.
It's inherently unfair and so that's why I can't simply let the issue drop.
Once again, my contention is that you should only have the number of children you can care for (financially, emotionally, physically). If you are unable to manage without turning the bulk of the housework and childcare over to your oldest daughters, then you've gone too far and it's an unfair burden on teenagers who have no say in the matter.
"Can you really say that all 3 of the older girls want to be where they are and are happy with the situation? But we have never seen them be anything but sweet."
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Personally I think the 3 older girls really ARE that sweet and fairly subdued, and if they had an issue, they certainly wouldn't bring it up on the air, or do anything to embarrass their parents. Not strictly an ATI trait nor all that unusual for kids that age.
I think Jinger was always the wild card among the older girls, and Mom and Dad knew it... remember Michelle talking about her vivacious "personality?" Hey, JB was in politics, you learn a little something about "spin." But she has matured out of that to an extent, although we can always count on her for the occasional eye roll.
JoyAnna is a tomboy, but still, fairly even-tempered. Really, I do believe genetics plays a part, and JimBob and Michelle had easy, EASY kids at first, especially the girls.
Johanna is the one to watch. I don't think the Duggar tried-and-true is going to result in a sweet and complacent helpmeet. I've seen it happen a lot in big Catholic families, moms saying about the baby, "If I'd had him first, I would have quit then!"
"The Duggar House Guidelines which are posted on their website clearly states that you should always show happy emotions even if you don't feel well or you have been mistreated."
No, the guidelines say to use soft words even if you dont feel well. They are not saying you aren't allowed to feel anything but happiness. They are saying, dont treat others badly. Dont react and make others suffer for your feelings. Its about self-control and is a very very positve thing.
When I was growing up and going through puberty my mom reminded me that just because I was PMSing did not give me the right to treat others badly. This is what the Duggars are doing and the world would be a better place if everyone treated everyone with love, kindness, respect and with soft words, EVEN IF they have had a bad day or are sick etc.
mamaofeight
Thank you mamaofeight you said it much better than I could I tried 4 times last night and couldn't get it to where it sounded right instead of pissy snippy comments I knew Sharla wasn't going to let through LOL.
I just copied these from their website
1 Always use soft words, even when you don’t feel well.
2 Always display kind actions and joyful attitudes, even if you have been mistreated. Have the right response by quickly forgiving others in your heart even before they ask.
It seems to me that they are not allowed to be anything but sweet, kind and joyful
5 Always use manners and be respectful of others and their belongings.
Hmmmm...
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I think Jinger was always the wild card among the older girls, and Mom and Dad knew it... remember Michelle talking about her vivacious "personality?" Hey, JB was in politics, you learn a little something about "spin." But she has matured out of that to an extent, although we can always count on her for the occasional eye roll.
Thank goodness Jinger grew out of that wildness and came back to her senses...
Kids are suppose to rebel, they NEED to try new things. The NEED to test their wings or else they don't learn how to fly. Instead of encouraging their kids to fly JB and M have clipped their wings.
What is a joyful attitude?
Example (from the Duggar family guidelines)
"Always display kind actions and joyful attitudes, even if you have been mistreated."
Also are the Duggar Family Guidelines like rules and you are punished if you don't follow them or are they like the schedule Michelle has which she states as more of a goal?
Because seeing the guidelines as rules or as goals, such sets them in totally different lights.
This is coming straight from the Duggar Guidelines.
# Always use soft words, even when you don’t feel well.
# Always display kind actions and joyful attitudes, even if you have been mistreated. Have the right response by quickly forgiving others in your heart even before they ask.
# Always be enthusiastic and look for opportunities to praise others' character.
If this doesn't spell out "Don't show your true emotions", then I don't know what does.
No, the guidelines say to use soft words even if you dont feel well. They are not saying you aren't allowed to feel anything but happiness. They are saying, dont treat others badly. Dont react and make others suffer for your feelings. Its about self-control and is a very very positve thing.
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Ok, here's the guidelines say word for word. These guidelines are absolutely saying to not show your true feelings. It's not saying you can't feel anything but happiness. It's saying your real feelings need to be covered up with "enthusiam", "soft voice", and "joyful attitude".
1. Always use soft words, even when you don’t feel well.
2. Always display kind actions and joyful attitudes, even if you have been mistreated. Have the right response by quickly forgiving others in your heart even before they ask.
3. Always be enthusiastic and look for opportunities to praise others' character.
1 Always use soft words, even when you don’t feel well. (you catch more flies with sugar than you do vinegar) Same concept different words.
2 Always display kind actions and joyful attitudes, even if you have been mistreated. (again you catch more flies with sugar than you do vinegar with "turn the other cheek" added in)
Have the right response by quickly forgiving others in your heart even before they ask. (this is biblical "forgive and you will be forgiven", "forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespassed against us") In this statement I am NOT assuming the Duggars are better at this or more holy or anything else. I AM saying that they got it out of the bible and they are simply trying to follow it.
I see the same things 90% of America tries to teach their children, be kind to one another even when you don't feel well.
Parents teach their children to say I'm sorry and the OTHER child to say "that's ok" or accept the apology in some way. The Duggars and quite a few sects of Christianity teach to forgive before being asked or at least when asked)
5 Always use manners and be respectful of others and their belongings. (be polite and ask first, play nice with it. Something most parents I know teach their children.)
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I don't see clipped wings, I see young eagles ready to soar. And though some won't go far, others will.
Out of the oldest four (that are over 18) ... 2 of them are very shy, 1 is slightly less shy, and the other one is too smug for his own good... I would rather give a few more of them time to actually reach 18 and start making some of these decisions and then we can see if the Duggars have been bluffing all this time or not.
Also are the Duggar Family Guidelines like rules and you are punished if you don't follow them or are they like the schedule Michelle has which she states as more of a goal?
Because seeing the guidelines as rules or as goals, such sets them in totally different lights.
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They are guides, not set in concrete out to the woodshed you will go rules. The Duggars whole view towards parenting can be expressed in the following quote from Michelle "praise 10 times more than you correct".
"Also, JimBob is home a LOT more than the average working dad, and in the interest of gender equality (a rare concept in the Duggar world, I admit, but bear with me), time with him should count as individual attention also. To be fair, by ATI standards he seems awfully hands-on."
Just because a parent is at home doesn't mean they are actually spending time with them. Anyone can be at home. One episode told how many hours he spent teaching older kids how to drive but that's beside the point. I think generalizing statistics are made exaggerated just to justify a lifestyle choice. Some of us need jobs to put food on the table. Not everyone is lucky with investments. it was mentioned somewhere maybe here a stay a tome parent only spends an average of one more hour with their children.
I agree with Michelle about praising children. It is a parenting strategy that I have employed in raising my three children, two to adulthood already. I can't actually figure out how one simultaneously praises and uses blanket training (since those two techniques seems mutually exclusive), but that may be just me.
I have two children over age 18. One is 20 and living in an apartment, working, and going to university. The other will be starting college and living in a dorm. Both are pursuing THEIR dreams and interests, and have bright futures. I simply cannot imagine my 20 year old living at home and caring for his siblings all day long, rather than preparing for his OWN life (not my life).
The Duggars seem to have missed the memo that one raises children IN ORDER to let them go, not to hold on to them and stifle them or infantalize them forever. If the Duggars are like some other ATI families, they will have 30 year olds still living at home and waiting for their "courtships". It is really beyond sad and pathetic to think of adult children being treated like small kids, in that they cannot make any decisions themselves, or do what is good for their OWN lives. That is the normal developmental progression.
The goal is to raise ones children with good values and let them go off and live their lives! This prolonged adolescence, pushed by Gothard, is unnatural!
"Praise 10 times more than you correct."
How well is that working? James, Jackson and Johannah are three of the most unruly little creatures ever seen. Their behavior would never be acceptable in a structured school environment (public of private school).
The reason those children act the way they do is because they CAN.
Those children know that there are absolutely NO consequences when they act up. So mom or dad "talks" to them? Big deal. They run off and do it again.
I'd like to see toys taken away, priveleges revoked, extra chores assigned. We don't see anything like that. Just a syrupy "don't do that again". Yeah, right.
I strongly agree that parents should be able to nurture, care for all needs of their blessings, provide food, clothing, shelter and a solid education, etc. I was raised in a family of five kids, and we all had several chores we were expected to complete. I believe it is important for children to learn how to do these chores, and to work with each other in accomplishing the required tasks, as well as contributing to the running of the household. However, the parents should be the primary care-givers, day and night, not the older blessings. I agree that JB and M cannot take care of their children without the older girls taking on a great deal of responsibility. IMHO, this is wrong.
My dilemma is that these little Duggars are here, and JB and M do not provide most of the care for them. How would this situation change for the older girls? They could leave home, but we know that isn't going to happen until they marry. They could refuse to do their jurisdictions, and go on strike, but we know that won't happen. The fact is that the older girls have absolutely no say in how many blessings they are/will be required to raise. It seems to me that M and JB are focused on the number of blessings God will give them, not the consideration of who will raise them.
Hey, isn't today JimBob and Michelles anniversary? 26 years? Re-saw that episode of them in San Francisco, I had to laugh, they made the most stupidest comments about hippies. Well, JB, you are kind of living a hippies lifestyle. Hippies had communes. If you know what a commune is then the Duggars are living like that. The women did all the work, the men milled around or did just enough, man work. I saw a Doc on hippies, the Duggars are living very simular(women in long skirts, children homeschooled, women doing chores and taking care of the children, and waiting and obeying the men). JB does not do his homework on subjects before he speaks, then he looks foolish.
Jana fan:
I think what you said is right on. Straight out, I'll say there is no doubt in my mind that Michelle and Jim Bob love their kids, want their kids, etc. But there is a sense that the kids are there to please and entertain their parents. . .and not for any other reason. The only thing they aspire to is to get married -- young -- and then have boatloads of their own kids so they can be entertained. . .
We may have a new definition for the dead horses - anything that gets on my last nerve.
Please move on from "the rules" discussion. Thank you. It's gone to snippy and beyond.
I am not convinced that the Duggar girls would like to do something else. Maybe they don't desire to go to college. They don't seem stifled to me. They seem to be happy.
If they went to college, they would probably get loans and then they would have a big loan to pay off when they graduate. If they got married after graduation, they would most likely feel obligated to work to pay off the loan. If you desire to be a stay at home mom, then why go through all the hoops, and just end up in debt?
It may sound boring to some people, but many women LIKE staying at home with their kids.
"If they went to college, they would probably get loans and then they would have a big loan to pay off when they graduate. If they got married after graduation, they would most likely feel obligated to work to pay off the loan. If you desire to be a stay at home mom, then why go through all the hoops, and just end up in debt?"
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You're right: many women love staying home with their kids.
However, this does not preclude wanting to have expanded one's horizons by furthering her education to include a college degree.
Additionally, one never knows what life holds down the road ... if, for any reason, a woman is dealt the hand of divorce or widowhood, she has a much better chance of being able to support herself and her children (and without working multiple jobs to do so) if she has some life experience coupled with a college degree.
It may sound boring to some people, but many women LIKE staying at home with their kids."
I'm beginning to wonder if the whole 'thou shalt not debt' is one more way to keep the flock uneducated, and, therefore, more willingly obedient, i.e., if loans, even for college are defined as somehow irresponsible and/or undesirable for any reason, this sure serves to keep the flock from being exposed to new concepts, new ideologies.
"How you goin' to keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Paree?"
It is possible to go to college without taking out a loan. I got a bachelors and a masters degree without loans.
"If they went to college, they would probably get loans and then they would have a big loan to pay off when they graduate. If they got married after graduation, they would most likely feel obligated to work to pay off the loan. If you desire to be a stay at home mom, then why go through all the hoops, and just end up in debt?"
This is a cop-out. I got my bachelor's degree (graduated in 2005) without a penny of debt, and it wasn't because mom and dad paid my way. I am in my last semester of grad school and, once again, I've done it without debt. It IS possible to get a college education without debt. I plan to be a stay-at-home mom when my husband and I have kids in a few years, but I don't regret my education for one second. It was a wonderful investment that will allow me to support my family if and when I need to do so.
-Emily
Sharla - LOVE your definition of a dead horse. Think I may use this the next time my engineers drag out a meeting by nitpicking a topic to the nth degree. Thanks for the laugh! And...you go, grrl!
With two advanced degrees myself, I am a believer in higher education, and want that for my kids. I think one can go to college without debt, even if it is community college and living at home.
But college isn't for everyone. So maybe a few of those Duggar kids have other aspirations. Terrific. Let them explore them. But that exploration might lead these kids to want something more, something different. There is a reason Gothard wants his sheep ignorant. However, ignorance is NOT bliss! Ands stay-at-home mothers can be educated, independent, free thinking, have other interests, hobbies, etc.
I am opposed to is 20+ year old children still living at home, sleeping in big dorm bedrooms with toddlers. It just isn't developmentally normal.
The point of having children is to raise them and then let them live their lives, not to keep them stifled at home forever. When I see photos of another ATI family with the much older girls still in the matching dresses, I just want to cry. I want more for my gal Jana (and the others!) than a life of ignorant servitude!
What about the boys not being allowed to get any sort of post high school education? Josh was discouraged from studying law even within a Bill Gothard approved Christian correspondence format. Getting education doesn't conflict with being a good Christian. What this is really all about are Mr and Mrs Duggar's strong dependency needs for their children not to deviate from them in even the smallest ways.
re: "It may sound boring to some people, but many women LIKE staying at home with their kids."
Except that these aren't their kids. These are their brothers and sisters.
I don't think you can say the connection between a mother and child is the same as that between siblings. Although the Duggars seem to feel that it's all the same and that a parent is interchangable with a sibling.
I don't think anyone would mind if Jinger or any of the other girls went off, got married and had children. But spending the majority of their lives taking care of siblings is not mentally healthy for them. IMO, of course.
I agree that it would be possible to get through college without a loan, but it isn't easy. Another factor might be that most colleges have a liberal viewpoint. There is a recent statistic out that 50% of Christian high school students will lose their faith in college. I assume the Duggars know this because it is talked about a lot in homeschool circles.
If there were a crisis, death, or divorce, you know those other children or JB and Michelle would welcome them into their home.
I think the Duggars focus on their faith, and pleasing God in everything. I don't see them as being driven by education as the end all goal.
I've been thinking about reality tv, like 19 Kids and Counting.
If my family and the Duggars were just people that we happened to meet at the park, there would be a great chance that my children and their children would be friends. I say this because their are similarities:
1)My daughter even saw on the show Joy-Anna wearing the exact same outfit she was wearing right then right down to the same striped shirt and brown skirt.
2)We knew about Vision Forum, MOTH, Quiverful etc. from friends way before we had ever heard of the Duggars.
So since we have made friends at the park with families that are like minded with the Duggars.(although I must admit when an acquaintance friend invited us to here country home and actually called it a compound I was a bit taken back)
I would have no reason to doubt that our children/families would be friends except in reality if we met at the park I'm betting the reactions/outcome would be quite different as we have seen them on the tv. That fact alone would change the dynamic I would think.
It seems to me that being on a reality show changes their reality.
I find that an interesting concept to ponder on.
There is nothing wrong with being a wife and mother and staying home with your children. I have done that. I do wish however, that I had gone to college and had a degree for situations we are in right now. My husband lost his job last year and I now work for a little more than minimum wage to help support our family. A degree would be real nice right now. You just never know what the future holds.
With the money this family is making off TLC there should be no reason any one of those children should have take out a loan for school. This is the very reason that reality star kids should have money put away for them, so they can have money to go to school or what they choose when they become of age to get that money. They are working for that money and should get a piece of the pie too.
Nothing wrong with staying home with the kids, but I would think that an intellectually curious person, would want to available them self of as much education as they can. It opens so many avenues of the mind.
As far as changing religions, what are they afraid of? The Duggars have no problem heading off to mission trips to change other people's religions, don't they?
If your comment didn't go through, please check your memory banks to see if it was about the Duggars as the primary topic and not faith or losing it in college, your own life, your children or grandchildren, or the many other things people have put forth.
Thanks again.
"As far as changing religions, what are they afraid of? The Duggars have no problem heading off to mission trips to change other people's religions, don't they?"
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Amen!!!
Additionally, even at a younger age than some of their still-at-home-with-mom-&-dad kids, JB&M were free to choose THEIR own path, THEIR own belief system, so why not give their own kids the same latitude? Why so little faith in their own children, especially if JB&M so believe their style of 'raising up' is so right and so effective?
"What about the boys not being allowed to get any sort of post high school education? Josh was discouraged from studying law even within a Bill Gothard approved Christian correspondence format."
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When did that happen? I don't remember seeing or reading about Josh being discouraged from anything... do you have a source?
I might agree that the Duggars' would, in a financial crisis, invite their siblings, or other relatives to move in with them. However, I know I did not feel right when I moved back home with my parents after living on my own(I am female). I felt it was my responsibility to provide for myself, and that is how the Duggar males have been raised. I will point out that Josh was told he had to support himself and Anna without help from JB and Michelle.
Also, I feel that the Duggar women should not feel financially forced to move back home once they leave. If they want to stay out on their own, they will need to be able to support themselves if their spouse dies, leaves, loses his job, become physically or mentally unable to work, wants to go back to school, is irrespnsible with money, has other family financial obligations, etc. I know that I feel most comfortable in my own home, not my parents' home.
You know the saying, giving a man food feeds him once, teaching him how to fish provides him with food for life. I think that JB and Michelle are not looking out for their children best interests by not providing them with a college (or trade) education, in other words, teaching them how to 'fish'.
Additionally, even at a younger age than some of their still-at-home-with-mom-&-dad kids, JB&M were free to choose THEIR own path, THEIR own belief system, so why not give their own kids the same latitude? Why so little faith in their own children, especially if JB&M so believe their style of 'raising up' is so right and so effective?
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One word: control.
Everything JB and M do is geared to the ATI/IBLP and VF doctrines which preach about the lack of choice. Their only choice is to follow Gothard and Phillips. The kids likely have no clue what a mainstream Christian believes compared to their extreme views.
No choices leads to ignorance and that's the entire reason Gothard/Phillips do not encourage higher education, even at Bob Jones or Pensacola. Even those places could potentially "corrupt" their flock.
I object to rule by fear, especially when it's cloaked as the fear of God to control children. If their doctrine is so strong, why not allow the little flowers (trademark: Kelly Bates) to grow and flourish in another garden? Why the chaperones for engaged couples? They're adults (for the most part). The infatalization of the adult children is certainly troublesome.
Let the adult children be adults, make their own decisions and let the chips fall where they may. That's what "normal families" (trademark: Josiah Duggar) do with their children. Not that I see any potential members of Mensa in the family, but heck, if JD wants to go to a heathen trade school to update his mechanical skills, let him. If Jill wants to go to nursing school (she'd have a long road of pre-reqs, but that's another kettle of fish), let her.
Frankly, I don't want people without proper certification fixing my car, delivering my children or dispensing meds if I'm hospitalized.
Bottom line: Dear JB and M: Let them go. If they come back, it's meant to be, and if not, well, c'est la vie.
You know the saying, giving a man food feeds him once, teaching him how to fish provides him with food for life. I think that JB and Michelle are not looking out for their children best interests by not providing them with a college (or trade) education, in other words, teaching them how to 'fish'.
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This is actually covered in their book. They have college saving accounts for their kids, it's ASSUMED by fans and non fans alike the Duggars are not all that gung ho about college. Yet they had money aside for the kids for college before TLC came along, it should be more now. (even if just half their kids went to college (boys or girls)that total would be huge)
Also in their book they cover other ways to figure out what it is you want to do in your life by shadowing people in those fields. Michelle just talked about one of the older girls shadowing a mid-wife and it was completely passed over in the argument about how much she could make playing the harp.
Michelle and JimBob are helping the children do what the children want with their lives, we just aren't happy with what the children have chosen so far.
There are after all only 4 of the Duggar children that "should be" making those choices, 2 have made theirs (towing and car dealership) and the two girls are not the "go get em" outgoing type to begin with. Jessa doesn't turn 18 till this fall, and Jinger has 2 more years to go.
Preparing a child to support themselves doesn't stop when they turn 18 like the older girls have. Shadowing somebody, while a totally awesome way to help young people decide what they'd like to do just isn't enough. My workplace has summer high school interns just for that reason but the kids already have in their heads the expectation they're going to have to support themselves someday. They're taking classes in areas they think might help them in fields they're interested in. They've chosen interneships in those areas. The internships might show them that these aren't the areas they want but that's great because they're young and have lots of time to switch educational gears.
If the two older Duggar girls aren't go-getters most normal fammilies (TM Josiah Duggar) would be freakin out already. Hanging out at home, no job, no training for a job? My Mom would kick their skirt clad behind and tell them to stop painting their countenance and get a job. A real job not just doing stuff around the house or babysitting for friends. If child/home care is their interest they should nanny full time or work in a day care. Something that gives them a work record so in the event they have to support themselves and their family in the future they have a work history. Their parents and sibilings don't owe them support in the future. I'm sure they would help them, they are obviously a loving family. But they're going to have their own families to support.
I wonder if the Duggar girls might be doing online classes? Or clepping out of classes? Many homeschoolers don't attend college on campus but do alternate things to get their degree.
I really don't think it will matter in the long run though because they will all be moms like Michelle in the end, I'm sure!
"This is actually covered in their book. They have college saving accounts for their kids, it's ASSUMED by fans and non fans alike the Duggars are not all that gung ho about college. Yet they had money aside for the kids for college before TLC came along, it should be more now. (even if just half their kids went to college (boys or girls)that total would be huge)"
There is a difference between having money set aside for college if they want to go and encouraging them to go to college. Just about every parent I know actively encourages their kids to go to college or trade school. My parents did. From the time I was little they would say, "Someday when you go to college..." They did this because they recognized that in today's ever-changing society, a high school diploma or GED is simply not enough education for most people to make a living wage. The Duggars do not seem to recognize this and seem to take a "do whatever you want" approach. I can imagine that for the Duggars, having been home-schooled and never experiencing a traditional classroom experience, the idea of going to college would be intimdating (heck, I was intimidated and I had been public schooled), and without mom and dad's encouragement and support they probably would not choose this route.
Now, I will be the first to say that a four-year liberal arts education is not for everyone. But I will insist that my kids get some kind of education that will make them qualified for a job that will make a living wage. That could be a journeyman's apprenticeship program to become a pipefitter, getting an associate's degree to become a paralegal, or getting a bachelor's degree (or higher) to be an accountant, teacher, or engineer.
The Duggars are not making sure that their kids have the necessary education and qualifications to support themselves and their families. What will Josh do if the used car lot doesn't pan out? He doesn't seem to have any other options.
I'm not saying these things to be critical, but because I truly worry about these kids. I understand that in some rare situations getting further education is extremely difficult or even impossible for some young adults, but this is not the case for the Duggar kids and I feel their parents are doing a disservice to them by not ensuring they have the tools they will need in adulthood.
-Emily
On the TLC/Duggar website are the stated "future goals" of the older children: Josh - Attorney; J-D - Contractor; Jill - Missionary; Jana - Midwife; Jessa - Beautician; Jinger - Chef.
Running a used car lot is quite different from being an attorney. (And by the way there's plenty of family money right now to help Josh out with this law degree goal.) J-D's original goal was pilot and on the website Mr & Mrs Duggar were quoted as saying this would take him too far away from the family. (Operating a tow truck is quite different from piloting a plane.) Missionary work, midwife, beautician, and chef would all require the adult Duggar daughters to leave the house each day, first to go through training and then to go to work. Unchaperoned! Does anyone think Mr. and Mrs would permit this?
Also in their book they cover other ways to figure out what it is you want to do in your life by shadowing people in those fields. Michelle just talked about one of the older girls shadowing a mid-wife
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Well now, those girls and JD have been out of "school" for 1 to 4 years. Have they just been "thinking" and are now "shadowing". I know they have been very busy raising their parents' children, cooking and cleaning. But why make a sham of this, by pretending, they are actually preparing for some sort of vocation? I'm doubtful, they could ever have a profession.
On one of the blogs, it mentions that boys should own a home before getting married and that girls should prepare for homemaking. Soooooooo, maybe those are the real goals. Boys=work at any job that gives you cash for home purchase, and girls -work for parents to learn homemaking skills.
"Also in their book they cover other ways to figure out what it is you want to do in your life by shadowing people in those fields."
Truthfully, I don't see them shadowing any other professions/occupations other than what Jim Bob Duggar does or what Michelle Duggar does. Let's be honest here. Specialized education and training is necessary for advanced fields whether it be white collar work, medical work, or even blue-collar work. Considering that the girls, especially, have their hands full with being buddies to a boatload of younger siblings and a Mother's helper to a woman that can't stop herself from being pregnant every year, it pretty much ensures that the "you can be anything you want" talk is just that...talk.
I think the only way that the girls will have an education or a life different than their Mothers is if they marry someone who appears to meet all the Gothard guidelines and then shows themselves to be a wolf in sheeps clothing. Or, who truly changes his beliefs over time. Because I seriously do not see JB blessing the girls marriage to someone who plans on the girls going to college and not having children right away. And, I do not see the girls asking to get married to someone JB doesn't AGREE with. Besides where would they meet a moderate person?
It would be really nice if JB and M would just say "Jana, you have done your share, being the oldest girl. Take some time for yourself now to work on a vocation/education/FUN, etc." There are more people now to spread the jurisdictions around (but of course, there are also more people!) What was I thinking?
Also - this is interesting - our local hospital just came out with new commercials - a little boy and girl on an "interview bench" and they are clones of little Jackson and Johannah. They have another one with twin girls about 7 or 8. It sure looks to me like they got the idea from the Duggars' show.
I guess they are back from the mission trip by now ??
Amy's FB page says something about "Jessa's Graduation" - anyone know what that's about?
Suzie said:
One word: control.
Everything JB and M do is geared to the ATI/IBLP and VF doctrines which preach about the lack of choice. Their only choice is to follow Gothard and Phillips. . . .
If their doctrine is so strong, why not allow the little flowers (trademark: Kelly Bates) to grow and flourish in another garden? Why the chaperones for engaged couples? They're adults (for the most part). The infatalization of the adult children is certainly troublesome.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head. It is most definitely all about control - controlling all aspects of their children's lives, even into adulthood. That's the real reason they don't want them working outside the home, going to a trade school, or even going to a religious college, because their children will then find out there's a whole world out there and guess what Ma and Pa? It's really not so scary. People with different beliefs and viewpoints are at heart, just as human and wonderful and unique as you and me!
That's what drives them to keep a huge barrier between their children and the rest of the world - if they found out what it was really like out there, the freedom would call to them and most would break the bonds and step toward the real light of day.
I am also highly bothered by the infantilization of adult daughters/women (I almost typed girls, but once those "girls" hit 18, they should be called young women, or women).
It happens to the male children too, but to a slightly lesser degree. However, the main thrust of the messages given constantly to the children are "you can't be trusted to make your own decisions. If you are on your own, you'll fall into temptation."
Does it not make you wonder what JB and Michelle were like as teens? Gee, just how wild were they? We know that JB hinted that Michelle had lots of Boyfriends and she also admitted to be not religious before she met JB. So was Michelle a wild teen? thats one of the reasons they don't trust their older ones? and has Michelle fallen into that I-can't-let-go-of-my-children-cause-they-are-adults-now,so-I keep having babies cause I can't bare the fact they are not babies anymore and I can't face/fact that I am growing old!, and JB is the same way, he just groups the kids all together and talks as if they are all between the ages of 6 and 12. The blood so-call donating episode, he treated those girls like as if they were 8 years old, not young adults(that is probably why Jill was acting like a child(she was 19) at the Dentist(I was 19 and had 4 wisdom teeth taken out at once, it was terrible, especially the next day) I did not act like a child and was scared or cryed. They act that way cause it is brainwashed into them and their lack of being with people their own age, not family 24/7. Remember when you are with your friends you are less likely to act like a child, than with family. My mother would talk one level to my bother and another to me. My brother is 8 years older than me. She did not treat either of us when we were kids on the same level, not until I started highschool then I was treat as a young adult. JB & Michelle have letting go issues. JMO
"There are after all only 4 of the Duggar children that "should be" making those choices, 2 have made theirs (towing and car dealership) and the two girls are not the "go get em" outgoing type to begin with. Jessa doesn't turn 18 till this fall, and Jinger has 2 more years to go."
Since the Duggar children supposedly all finish high school by the age of 16, then that is the age they need to continue on with either college, or some sort of a job. Why would they sit at home doing nothing until they are 18, before going forward? Would defeat the whole purpose of completing high school at the age of 16 I would think?
Since the Duggars appear to value educating oneself by taking most of the homeschool curriculum online, I don't see why the older children couldn't do some sort of online course. There are plenty of reputable and accredited programs out there. Or perhaps they are, and we just don't know about it? I hope that is the case.
Just because teenagers aren't taking care of younger siblings and going on field trips (why is a 20 year going on a field trip to the zoo btw?) doesn't mean they are sitting around playing video games. That is offensive to most teenagers, yes they play video games but they do so many other things too.
The reason the kids don't complain is because they are not allowed to. Any opinion they give echos JB&M. They are not allowed to think for themselves or even explore other things..Even on field trips they have to stay with the group. The goal of parenting should be to raise an individual not a mini me
I don't think that anybody has said that the elder Duggar kids are just sitting around. It's that they don't appear to be doing age appropriate actions to insure that they will be able to support themselves and live independently if need be. Whether those age appropriate actions are creating a job history (with outside the family jobs), trade school, on-line education or college they should be engaging in something in that direction.
Driving back and forth between houses, going on mission trips, , field trips are all things to do but they are not things that will play out well on one's job application. Some are obviously great things to do and can broaden your horizons. But if I've got 4 kids and a disabled husband then I think I would much rather have a beautician's license or an LPN than another field trip to Pigeon Forks or wherever it was.
Where does the perception that the Duggars are raising these wonderful, amazing children come from? They seem like pretty nice and polite kids.
I run into those all the time. Don't a lot of you? Kids, teens and young adults aren't all like they show on MTV. Yes, you'll remember the one that was rude to you. But how many times do you remember the ones that are just quiet and hold open the door for you?
Are you someplace and a bunch of kids are loud, laughing and joking around? Well, the Duggar kids run around and are loud too sometimes. Is it okay just because they're on TV and Christian?
How many kids volunteer at your local humane society, salvation army, food drives, recycling drives, etc.? These kids, unlike the Duggars kids, aren't segregated to be kept pure, a lot go to public and private schools. Some are home schooled but freely associated with people different religions and backgrounds.
The Duggar kids are nice kids. But so are a lot of other kids.
The only reason that I can see that the Duggar parents don't seem to be encouraging the older kids to get jobs/educations is that they need them at home to help do all the work and raise the siblings.
This is of course only my opinion, but for the life of me I can't think of any other reason(s) why these two parents would seem unconcerned about kids those ages not having jobs or going to school.
It does not wash with me that they are "doing other things" such as field trips and the like. Mostly they appear to work in and around the home. I've thought about it again and again and the only reason for them not being encouraged to get jobs or educations seems to be that their labors are necessary to the parents. Ask yourself if the parents might have different expectations if they had only one or two other younger children. I'll bet they would.
I'm a long time lurker and first time poster.
Regarding the discussion concerning the Duggar girls getting higher education, I wanted to add my viewpoint. Others have pointed out that even if all the Duggar women decide to be stay home moms, getting an education is a wise move in case of the need, due to various life situations, to either help support or primaily support their families.
Further, as an educated stay home mom, the Duggar women would be far better equipped to help to educate their future chidren. Educated mothers can help the high schooler struggling with physics, the second grader struggling with reading comprehension, and the middle schooler dying of the dreaded algebra. The educated mother can also supplement their child's education by having summer enrichment classes to broaden on subjects that aren't necesssarily taught in traditional schools.
I have been a stay home mom for 10 years. I have a credential and taught for years before my kids came. I use my education to enrich my childrens education. This summer I taught world geography to my grade schoolers. They love it.
For this reason, even if for no other, the Duggar girls truly need to further their education either through a college or a trade school.
I don't buy that one of the reasons the Duggars have not gone on to higher education is due to worry over paying back student loans. I also do not think that paying back those loans would cause the Duggars to wait to have a family until the loans are paid off.
I want to believe that since JB obviously loves his children he is putting aside a percentage of the earnings from TLC for each child. Even a very minimal guess of what the family earns per episode divided by the number of family members would provide a fund large enough for, at the very least, a four year degree at a state college. That's why I don't think paying off student loans is really the main factor keeping the Duggars from persuing a higher education.
I think the truth lies more in what the kids are accostomed to in their lives. Their parents didn't go to college or trade school, and yet they have done well, in the long run, financially. So far, none of the siblings have gone on either which would provide a role model for the younger kids. It just seems that higher education isn't something that exists in the Duggar world, so the Duggar kids and young adults simply don't see higher eduation as the normal next step in their life paths. Instead, at least for the female Duggars, the "normal" next life step is to care for their siblings until such a time as God sends them a husband and they begin raising their own children. While this senario could work out very happily for perhaps some of the Duggars, it could also work out to be very limiting in the long run both personally and financially.
The older Duggar boys are working. The Duggar girls are apprenticing at home for their future jobs. That is how I look at it.
In their lifestyle, the boys are the bread winners, and the girls keep the home running. That is their choice. It is not a lesser choice than working outside the home.
I believe the reason they aren't working at the mall is because that is not where their future lies. They are going to be "keepers at home".
I think they are lucky because they will never have to drop off a baby at daycare and cry all the way to work. They won't have to answer to a boss. They won't have to work all day and then come home and still do all the housework and laundry. Their lives won't be rushed, and they will have time to pursue any hobbies that they want... like crocheting ( as we saw in one episode)
I don't understand why people think this is a lesser choice. It sounds pretty nice to me.
"This is of course only my opinion, but for the life of me I can't think of any other reason(s) why these two parents would seem unconcerned about kids those ages not having jobs or going to school."
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The ultra-conservative fundamentalist Christian homeschooled mindset is different. They want to start their own businesses, not work for others. And our local homeschoolers group had a widow's fund; a percentage of sales and fundraisers and donations went to take care of a couple widowed families where the mom was still homeschooling and not working. Could be that some of the 19 and Counting money has been set aside for each of the kids also.
Not my cup of tea, of course, but better explains why the Duggars aren't tearing their hair out having graduated teens at home, other than for slave labor.
Well, it would seem that Josies' buddy is Jill. If Jill had inkling to be a nurse before Josie was born, it probably was nicks. Now that they have a sickly child, they are probably looking for a nursing program for Jill to take, she probably will take just enough nursing courses to be able to take care of Josie, Cause we all know that JB is cheap, and will not hire outside the family for nursing, cause gee that nurse might influence the other children to the wrong path. So, in the long run it would be cheaper to produce a home made nurse, one that will not have to be paid, take vacations or influence the other children into the path of evil. So, JB must have had a relation from God that Jill should become a sort of nurse to take care of her sister, till Jill is found a husband maybe? It's a, as long as Michelle does not have to deal with it and make some more babies I also think that Jill, has been taking nursing courses,online . JMO
The point is not that being a stay at home mother is a lesser choice it's that not preparing to be able to qualify for some type of job in the case of unforseeable problems is plain idiotic.
Husbands die. Husbands get sick. Economic realities can mean that you can't survive on one income because your child requires extraordinarily expensive medication. No one knows what the future can bring. Your family may not be able to support you. Your friends may not able to give you enough money to help you survive on. Stuff happens. That's why every adult needs to know how to support themselves and not live in some fantasy world where they think that nothing bad will ever happen.
Women have ALWAYS worked outside the home. My great grandmother in the old country cleaned the bishop's house. The perception that working women are a new phenomenon is ludicrous and a longing for a period in time that never existed for the vast majority of people. If you your kids to eat, you worked.
I think they are lucky because they will never have to drop off a baby at daycare and cry all the way to work. They won't have to answer to a boss. They won't have to work all day and then come home and still do all the housework and laundry. Their lives won't be rushed, and they will have time to pursue any hobbies that they want... like crocheting ( as we saw in one episode)
I don't understand why people think this is a lesser choice. It sounds pretty nice to me."
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And it is exactly this realization that leads me to wonder WHY Mrs. Duggar deserves a 'Mother of the Year' award - seems like she has a pretty cushy gig compared to women who MUST work outside the home in order to keep a roof over their kids' heads.
This is an oh by the way, but I noticed that someone opened a masche-without-pity blog today that perhaps could fill in the quiet time awaiting new episodes.
I wonder if the Duggars believe in a lot of insurance? If you have a big life insurance policy, that would pay off the house etc if the bread winner died suddenly.
Also, when Michelle got the mother of the year award, there was a lot of talk about how humbleness, gentleness and quiet spirit. I think that is why she got the award. It wasn't about number of children, or the hardest worker, but the fact that she is a role model for other women.
Let's think beyond the actual earning of a college degree for a second -- what about what the experience of living away at college gives you -- freedom to make your own choices, practice at living alone, balancing a checkbook, etc. It's an excellent way to bridge the gap between childhood and full fledged adulthood. To me, the education part to have job security later is only one prong. The Duggar children don't learn how to be independent adults, really, until they have their own children. I'm not sure that makes for better parents, you know?
Could be that some of the 19 and Counting money
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This cracked me up. Could be the real name of the show "19 (kids) and counting money (from TLC).
I don't think of Michelle as being a good role model,for many reason I won't go into right now.Most of them have been hashed and rehashed anyway.
I do however,wonder if there is indeed a no. 20,and if it's a boy,and he's healthy...will he be placed in the girl's dorm room,and if so,at what age? IMO it would be very telling to see at what age he would move to the boy's dorm room,to be taken care of by them if he needs anything.
we don't really know the answer to this question,as there have only been girls born since they moved into the new house,and even so,no one has answered the question of when the babies move into their sister's room at night.
If your needing "something Duggar" while you wait for the show to return, may I suggest the Duggars' book, if you haven't already read it.
I was able to read the Duggas' book for the first time this weekend.
It really answered some questions for me, including my question on guidelines (which was new to me but a dead horse for everyone else).It also had interesting stories and information about the family that I had not hear before.
The Duggars have finally updated their website to include Josie!!
http://duggarfamily.com/
It says that she is over 10 pounds and counting. There is also a new family picture that has Josie(along with everyone else including Grandma Duggar, Anna and Mackynzie)
While I believe that humbleness, gentleness and a quiet spirit are admirable characteristics, I don't want MD to be a role model for me. My partner and I chose to give birth and raise the children we brought into this world without the older ones providing most of the care for the little ones. When my babies reached six months of age, they weren't parked in a play-pen placed in the older girls' room. I was the one who was up through the night to comfort them, clean up if they couldn't make it to the bathroom, etc. Many nights I was up with one child or more, and that is what I believe a mother does. The ability to reproduce "as often as God allows" does not make a mother, IMO.
I do however,wonder if there is indeed a no. 20,and if it's a boy,and he's healthy...will he be placed in the girl's dorm room,and if so,at what age?
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That is a very good question. And where would they put another baby? It is wall to wall pac n plays now. Isn't it time a couple of the under 5 set were moved into real beds? Isn't it time that they older girls get their own room? Isn't it time Michelle take care of her own babies? One more question, at what age is it no longer appropriate for boys to come into girls room and sleep with them, as has been reported?
One more question, at what age is it no longer appropriate for boys to come into girls room and sleep with them, as has been reported?
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Far as we know the boys are taking NAPS in the girls beds. The few "morning shots" where boys are being "awoken" in the girls room they are fully dressed including shoes.
Frankly I think the boys get dressed then crawl into the girls beds till it's time to head downstairs and get breakfast.
Far as we know the boys are taking NAPS in the girls beds. The few "morning shots" where boys are being "awoken" in the girls room they are fully dressed including shoes.
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Just another invasion of the privacy young ladies should have when they get to be in their teens and early twenties. Bunking with baby girls, taking care of them overnight so that JB and M can have their fun time, and then having the rat pack climb into their beds when they vacate them, complete with dirty shoes? Yuck. There should be a room for the young women with a lock on the door, and it should be soundproofed against the babies' cries so the real mom can deal with them.
The episode where the Duggars go to speak at he public school, Jackson is shown being woken up in the girls room wearing what looks like PJ's and with no shoes on.
That being said we do not know why he was in that bed or if it is a daily happening or a oddity. We also do not know if that is his assigned place or not.
Have we ever heard Michelle's reasoning on why she does not take care of her young children at night if they get up to go to the bathroom, being sick, etc.? I know that they don't have enough rooms to have just a small "kids" room" but couldn't they make one of the alcoves we see into one? To have someone else take care of your little ones at night is just plain lazy.
I recently read the blogs about the mission trip that Jana and John David took to Southeast Asia. These were not written by J & J, but by team leaders. Have no idea who they are,or where they are from. According to blogs the "missionaries" ate local food, met local youngsters in controlled situations. That part was good to read. I don't think they explored or learned anything about the countries or cultures they visited. Their free time was spent reflecting and praying etc.
Msrylee said:
The ability to reproduce "as often as God allows" does not make a mother, IMO.
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And in Michelle Duggar's case, we see that the ability to produce in large quantity actually makes her less of a mother, since she has narrowed her focus to carrying the baby to term (or as close as her body will now allow), and caring for the infant until approx. 6 months of age before turning it over to the older daughters to care for.
It is the three oldest girls who deserve to share in that "Mother of the Year" award, and not Michelle Duggar. They are the ones doing the actual real mothering.
humbleness, gentleness and quiet spirit. I think that is why she got the award. It wasn't about number of children, or the hardest worker, but the fact that she is a role model for other women
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Then the award should have had another name, because it was titled Mother of the Year, and not Most Humble and Gentle Spirit of the Year.
Clearly, Mrs. Duggar has a large following in a certain segment of the population. I wonder if part of it is that she does exhibit a way for these over-tasked moms to shift some of their heavy load onto the shoulders of their older kids. Maybe that's why so many women feel gratitude toward Mrs. Duggar - she gives them permission to hand over a lot of the actual mothering to someone else without having to feel guilty about it.
Re: the older daughters sharing their beds for naptime with the younger boys on a regular basis: eeewwww.
What's wrong with these people?
THIS is a well-run household???? By whose standards?
I went to the family website. What a disappointment. The new picture of the whole family is too small to really show anyone, especially Josie. Also, I did not see where they said she weighed 10 pounds now, etc. Does anyone know where there are any really good close pictures of Josie that were taken since she came home permanently? Also, does anyone know when Kelly Bates is due? Thanks everyone!!
Then the award should have had another name, because it was titled Mother of the Year, and not Most Humble and Gentle Spirit of the Year.
Clearly, Mrs. Duggar has a large following in a certain segment of the population. I wonder if part of it is that she does exhibit a way for these over-tasked moms to shift some of their heavy load onto the shoulders of their older kids. Maybe that's why so many women feel gratitude toward Mrs. Duggar - she gives them permission to hand over a lot of the actual mothering to someone else without having to feel guilty about it."
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Well said (above).
I think the Duggar set up is a way to unload maternal and paternal responsibilities onto the eldest siblings so that the wife has more energy to 'be a wife' to The Patriarch. Anyway you look at this set up, women lose. I find it sad.
Have we ever heard Michelle's reasoning on why she does not take care of her young children at night if they get up to go to the bathroom, being sick, etc.? I know that they don't have enough rooms to have just a small "kids" room" but couldn't they make one of the alcoves we see into one? To have someone else take care of your little ones at night is just plain lazy.
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It has not ever been proved that Michelle does not take care of night time needs. And several of us with large families have spoken up that despite the fact that the young ones are in with the odler ones, it is us that tends to them at night. We do not know how it works for the Duggars. It is an assumption made by some viewers just because they share a room.
In one of the early specials, they show Michelle getting up in the night to switch laundry in the rental house since they didn't have multiple washers/dryers. I would not call that lazy.
mamaofeight
Those poor girls. No privacy. Did everyone ever notice that when they have a family meeting it's mostly in the girls room. What wrong with the living room? Little boys should not even be in their sisters room for any reason. Shame on you JB & Michelle, for not giving your daughters privacy. JMO
Also, does anyone know when Kelly Bates is due? Thanks everyone!!
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Kelly Bates is due on September 18 with number 18.
"Did everyone ever notice that when they have a family meeting it's mostly in the girls room. What wrong with the living room?"
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The nightly bible study/family meeting is in the boy's room. I would assume it was there instead of the living room for the following reasons: 1)Michelle said "As a general rule pajamas are not seen downstairs". Nightly bible studies/family meetings the little ones at least are in the pj's. 2) It has been stated that the little ones sometimes fall asleep during the meetings. It would be a lot easier to carry them to bed from a meeting upstairs then to them to carry them up the stairs.
If (and it is a big, giant if) Michelle actually ever got up at night to care for any of her children (babies, toddlers, preschoolers), who might have been sick, had a bad dream, cried in the night etc., the older girls would still have been awoken.
The whole dormitory setup with all those young women sharing a bedroom with toddlers is ridiculous. Sure it might have seemed like a grand plan when they were twelve years old, but at age 20, listening to toddlers at night, or much more than likely having to get up with them, seems really cruel.
If Michelle and Jim Bob are so insistent on having more children than a large sports team, they should have enough bedrooms that they kids can AT LEAST be segregated by age and gender.
However, I don't think that those parents want their children to have privacy, any more than they want them to have an independent thought. These are all ways of controlling grown adults, and it is really wrong.
What will happen when the babies out number the available 'buddies'? Will each older girl have more than one baby to raise? What is the acceptable 'buddy-to-child' ration?
"Did everyone ever notice that when they have a family meeting it's mostly in the girls room."
Actually the opposite is true. The family has nightly Bible study in the boys' bedroom, and we've seen most "bedroom" gatherings happen in the boys' room also. One recent one that comes to mind is a family meeting to decide the baby's name that took place in the boys' room. The girls' bedroom actually isn't used hardly ever for gatherings that we've seen televised. There may have been one or two but the boys' room is used as a general rule.
I doubt if the babies will double in number to the older children. Currently there are some very younger kids who have two buddies, that is they have a teen and a middle age child as buddy. It seems the children love the buddy system and when a baby is born they fight to become its buddy so they sometimes double on the buddies.
Maybe the nightly Bible studies and/or family meetings are held in the boys' dorm as the girls' dorm is over-crowded with beds and play-pens. Just a thought.
A couple comments:
-I feel that not only should the girls get a college/university degree, but the boys should know how to take care of the home. They need to understand both roles incase of a (God forbid) death or illness. Like in an old episode where the girls changed car oil, and the boys made a meal.
-About women working: I hope Michelle and Jim Bob would let one of the girls to do a strictly womens job. (Doula, mid-wife, gynecologist). Because I know that no woman would feel comfortable doing those things with a man.
-Lastly, I feel that it is 100% natural to soak up whatever is around you. If the girls want to raise children, let them! It's normal for a child to do what they know of and what they are used to. That's why i feel that we cannpt blame any of the Duggar children for following their parents footsteps as it is all they know of.
-Reality TV Junkie.
Michelle and Jim Bob´s bedroom has a nursery in an alcove off to the side (this was shown in the special 16 Kids and Moving In). So M and JB (rather than their older daughters) tend to the baby during the night. I don´t know at what point the youngest is moved into the dormitory of the appropriate gender----presumably it´s after the child is at least a year old. In the same special, M and JB also mentioned how their children specifically chose to continue with the same two-bedroom arrangement they had in their previous house because they wanted to remain together (as opposed to being divided up and placed into a series of smaller rooms). Perhaps the older ones would choose differently now --- but then again, perhaps not. We can only speculate.
I don´t know at what point the youngest is moved into the dormitory of the appropriate gender----presumably it´s after the child is at least a year old
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I seem to recall a show in which Michelle explained that when the baby is weaned, that's when it is moved in with the sisters. I also believe she said that when she becomes pregnant, that changes the flavor of her breast milk and often the nursing baby at the time doesn't like it anymore and that's when the baby is weaned. I wouldn't presume it's at age 12 months, because she's had babies fairly close together before. It could be as young as six months, depending on the situation.
Either way, while I can understand the parents not wanting to have the baby sleep in the same room after several months, why then should the baby go in with the girls?
Seems to me with their money and large home, the Duggars could certainly spring for a contractor and crew to come out, create a variety of smaller bedrooms, and split the children up more appropriately. Certainly by the age of 18, a child ought to be allowed his or her own bedroom, or to only share with one sibling near their same age. At least since the family home is certainly big enough to accommodate such an arrangement and the parents have the money to get it done.
As I recall, most babies take at least a year to settle into sleeping through the night. Most ear infections and other illnesses also manifest in the night. The first 12 months are usually the hardest. Moving infants and toddlers into the older daughter's room seems ridiculous to me. Put them down the hall from mom and dad's room, put a monitor in the bedroom with them so you hear them in the night, and mom and dad be the ones to get up and care for those children if they need tending during the night, not the daughters.
Honestly, I cannot imagine that Jim Bob and MIchelle did not understand that their children would grow up when they were planning for the new house. Any regular parent would say, "Well, my oldest child is only a young teenager, so what they think they want now will likely not be the reality in the future".
So, they could have built the dormitory style rooms, but had the foresight to realize that as kids get older, they really deserve a little privacy. They could have built four kids bedrooms, at least. One for the older kids of each gender, and one for the younger. At LEAST that would be a little more developmentally appropriate.
I know a lot of 20 year olds and not a one who would want to be getting up all night with their baby siblings, much less sharing a room or bed with 3 and 4 year olds.
I've always thought the Duggar dormitory arrangement was short sighted not only because the kids were only going to get older and may not want to continue sharing with the younger kids but because in the future when the Duggar kids have families of their own and visit for holidays where are they going to sleep? Are husbands, wives and kids going to split up along gender lines to sleep in the dormitories?
They can repurpose the space eventually. But given that even when they moved in they had kids with a wide span of ages and could predict having adult kids with families visiting while they still had kid kids a little forethought to the floor plan might have been in order.
Thank You Anonymous 7/26/2010 6:14 p.m.
If I never mentioned it, I always wanted to - that the overall plan above all others is for "mamma" to have more time for "pappa". It is just my opinion and always was. Also, my other thought on that subject is that one reason Michelle might not pick up toddlers much is because she is trying to save her strength for "birthing" etc. I know she occasionally picks them up (mostly in the past more than now) but I have been watching, and last season, she just would bend over and kiss or hug them, never really pick them up, etc. Just something that was kind of sad to me.
Thanks Anonymous 8:08 pm for answering my question about Kelly B.
the dorm room idea is not a dugger invention it seems to be a qf thing. I have read of several qf families that stuff kids into rooms together.
this is the way they are raised so it seems fine. it also controls alone time so young people can't do anything they should not by themselves. plus in the dugger case built in nannies all in one spot.
I've never really bought the story line that the children chose to have one large bedroom for the boys, and one for the girls - that it was the kids' decision and mom and pop Duggar simply went along with it.
When looking at their family life overall, it's clear that they actually don't get much say in anything that goes on. They are told what's on the agenda, and are expected to go along with it. I guess they get to vote on the new baby names, big whoop.
I have a feeling that this option was the parent-approved option, and being kids that know the score, they said, "sure, that's what we'd like." Have to keep a cheerful countenance!
The only way any of those kids will get away from the dormitory style claustrophobic bedroom situation is if they are allowed to get married. And I have a feeling JimBob is going to arrange it so that they don't move far away - maybe a little shack of their very own on the Duggar compound - with room for siblings!
Babies, toddlers or children of any age, do not stop getting sick or having nightmares at age 6 months or one year or whatever age Michelle and JB wash their hands of night time duty. It is clear the older girls take care of all of the girls in their room, as well as the young boys who come to sleep with them.
When the girls went to visit Joah and Anna. they stayed with them and not at the house with john david and the other boy.
I think that JB and Mich do this to make sure everything is pure.
I really wish the young kida had beds.
A pack in play is fine for a trip to grandmas or a friends house where they don’t have a real crib or bed for the age of the child. Or even just be used in the parents room till the baby stops waking up so much at night.
That’s what pack and plays are made for.
Well, I think they love the kids. They overlook privacy and safety
Johannah and Jennifer seem to still be in them and im sure they can climb out. If they climb out they could lose there balance and hit there head etc.
I think even having nice mattresses on the floor would be better.
On the TLC/Duggar website are the stated "future goals" of the older children: Josh - Attorney; J-D - Contractor; Jill - Missionary; Jana - Midwife; Jessa - Beautician; Jinger - Chef.
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Those are from the very first special when they did the "Duggar lineup" with each kid running out of the front door of the old house with name, age, height, hobby and future aspiration captioned beneath them. IIRC, Hannie wasn't born yet, so toddler Jackson's aspiration was to be an "older brother."
Since then, we haven't seen any of the adults (or the next two girls for that matter) pursue these interests. Josh may be studying the Gothard law program during his downtime at the lot (riiiiight), but that program is only accredited in CA, which, ironically, has the hardest bar exam in the country. Not gonna happen. JD's excuses were given upthread. Jill? Could be a missionary, I suppose, but wouldn't she have to be accompanied by a sibling of the same gender to do REAL mission wor; what JD and Jana did was controlled, especially in Indonesia, where proselytizing can land you in jail. They mostly ate American food and found tofu to be "weird." At least what they do in El Salvador seems a LITTLE more real, although it bothers me that Catholics are considered heathens. Back on topic, Jana now wants to play the harp, Jessa has abandonded photography - Jinger always seems to have the camera these days, and Jinger said on a fairly recent episode that she doesn't really like to cook.
Regarding Mother of the Year, Michelle gets all that free time only BECAUSE she was front loaded with girls. She wouldn't have a moment's rest, even as as SAHM, with her beliefs, if her family was front loaded with boys with no girls to help her for about 10 years. I never saw bags under her eyes until Josie was born, but I recall Jessa botching her parents vowel "removal," giving the excuse she was working on two hours sleep. I have no doubts Michelle was fresh as a daisy that day (well a 10-week pregnant daisy anyway...that's also part of the problem here); the girls absolutely get up with the young 'uns at night; Jessa's eyes are not the only ones I've seen bags or dark circles under during the course of this show.
And according to the book, Michelle indeed weans at 6 months, saying that nursing is "painful" because she has a common problem with her mammaries (that I share), which makes nursing difficult. That's when they go to the girl's dorm. There hasn't been a boy born since they moved into the tinker toy house, so I have no idea where a little boy would go after the 6 month moratorium is up. I'm hoping Josie is bunked up in the alcove (if her oxygen and whatever else she needs fits) and not in the girls' dorm. I guess we'll find out this Tuesday, since the following week's new episode is the film set.
JB says in their book that he hopes all the kids will eventually build houses on the nearby property and live close by.IMO,I don't think any of them moving very far away would be acceptable,at least not out of state anyway.If even that far.But of course whether any of them do live on their parents' land or even remain in AR remains to be seen.
I suspect the girl's dorm being placed right beside JB and M's room (instead of beside the boy's room)was by design and not by accident..and that was because they are the nighttime helpers when the babies get moved out of their parent's bedroom.
So apparently the boys are not expected to help with the younger siblings at all at night,at least not until the boys are old enough to go into the same room with them.
What I always wonder, is what Michelle and Jim Bob will do with that huge house once most of the kids are older and married? The downstairs alone, is just huge, and no way Michelle could clean it alone. Will they eventually sell the house, or let one of the children with the largest family move into it maybe? Her child bearing years are coming to a close, and in another 10-15 years, most of the children will be fairly old and out on their own surely.
"Johannah and Jennifer seem to still be in them and im sure they can climb out."
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Jennifer and Jordyn might still be in pack and plays but Johannah is four now.
The visit public school episode showed Johanna waking up in a real bed. In a rental house episode, where everyone sleeps was shown. I believe it was said that Johannah slept in whatever bed she wanted that night.
. Her children are up and dressed each day, meals are served on time, children are in bed in the evening. School still happens on days it's supposed to, it appears. The house appears clean and organized, and runs like a well-oiled machine.
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And all this takes place every day because the older girls are in charge of making it happen. They cook the meals and clean up afterwards. They get their younger siblings up and dressed (or supervise the process, because they are their "buddies"), they also clean the house. The household is a well-oiled machine because they have three fulltime unpaid staff that do the bulk of the work, plus a number of younger part-timers to fill in the gaps.
If I had even one full-time helper to cook, clean and do the laundry for me, I too would probably find it much easier to smile all the time, not get frazzled and in fact, would likely be quite content. Except for one pesky thing - my conscience wouldn't let me put the burden of my own responsibilities onto my teenager daughter. So I'll take my sometimes chaotic, often slightly messy and disorganized household, my flashes of irritation and frustration, my daily stresses, because that's the job I signed up for when I chose to have children. It's the hardest job in the world, especially since I have to work outside the home too to help support our household. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.
I neither want nor need a phony Mother of the Year award to validate me, nor would I feel comfortable accepting one. I just wish Michelle Duggar would get more involved in her own children's lives once again, maybe pick up a little one and cuddle him or her, read them bedtime stories, get back in the classroom and teach again, and pick up the reins of motherhood she put down some years ago when she about had a nervous breakdown from caring for her kids and household (and she didn't even work outside the home!)
JB says in their book that he hopes all the kids will eventually build houses on the nearby property and live close by.
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Geez, let them go JimBob! Talk about trying to hang onto your children even after they are grown. Yikes.
I tell you what's gonna happen -- just when those girls think they are finally done with raising up their younger siblings, one or more of them will have to become caretakers for their elderly and infirm parents. And JimBob will live nearly forever, preserved as he is by AquaNet. Michelle, since most of her stresses have been removed will probably live equally as long. And they'll still make out in front of their kids and grandkids - gross!
Jen's post implies that Hannie doesn't have her own bed but picks a sister to sleep with each night. At home, only Jill and Jana have double beds to accommodate a "buddy," so they're put upon in that way. Co-sleeping is usually done with a parent, not a sibling. With that in mind, can you imagine Jackson or Hannie busting into Momma and Daddy's room after an accident in bed, Michelle getting up to change a pull-ups and allowing the child to be comforted by JimBob and her for the rest of the night.
Not. That would wreck baby making and Jim Bob's beauty sleep. Josh is definitely his daddy's son times 100. What a lazy slug. At least JB gets up earlier more often due to all the trips to Dollywood and whatnot. His actual "work" would allow him to sleep in and make calls and wait on tenant checks in the mail. Show up on the sites once a month to make sure no one's building a meth lab or whatnot and that's pretty much it. Collecting the rent checks, as shown on the show, is superfluous, unless it's from the rentals that are within sight of the house. Even so, anyone who has rented, either a residential or commercial space doesn't like their landlord breathing down their neck, even if they live/work in the same building. IOW, JB really doesn't have much to do these days other than cart the kids around on trips and do speaking engagements with Michelle, who, when one really thinks about what the older daughters actually do, didn't have much to do herself before Josie came along.
I can see where this would put a "strain on their marriage" as Michelle said in one of the articles we read here earlier this spring/summer. If she was really gone 16 hours a day, I doubt she was giving JB his sex 'on-demand," which is another tenet of their belief system (the submissive wife). And another reason the daughters will be forever infantalized; as some here have said, if Michelle is all they know, they're destined to ownership by their future husbands, long, permed hair and the baby voice that makes him happy. Hopefully, their husbands won't be so picky as JB, or stuck stylewise in the decade when they married (puffed, 80's sleeves on the wedding dress? Yuck.) and allow their wives to dress more modern-modest. Thank heavens there is only one more Maxwell boy to marry off; I can't picture a Duggar daughter (likely Jinger given his age) going off to Kansas and wearing those horrid jumpers the Maxwell girls and wives wear. Double yuck.
The Duggars recorded voices for a children's radio program - see http://www.lifeatthepond.com/.
Apparently it will air some time next month.
"Co-sleeping is usually done with a parent, not a sibling. With that in mind, can you imagine Jackson or Hannie busting into Momma and Daddy's room after an accident in bed, Michelle getting up to change a pull-ups and allowing the child to be comforted by JimBob and her for the rest of the night.
Not. That would wreck baby making and Jim Bob's beauty sleep."
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According to the book, they say that there are knocks on their bedroom door quite often. That it is not uncommon to listen to and have heart to heart talks (where the parents mainly listen "with their listening ears on and well as their pajamas" ) for long hours at night. So the book seems to imply late night parenting is common place. It seems that it might be the older children more so then the toddlers in their room at night. Michelle say these heart to heart talks are precious to them.
Who knows maybe toddlers or at least the younger children settle for the pajama clad snuggle into the pillow heart to heart talks too.
"I've never really bought the story line that the children chose to have one large bedroom for the boys, and one for the girls - that it was the kids' decision and mom and pop Duggar simply went along with it."
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I'm willing to bet that the kids got about as much say about the dormitory arrangement as the older girls got about donating blood.
What The Patriarch wants, he gets, because women folk are taught that feminine life can only qualify as 'godly' if it is joyfully subservient.
Nice set up for the men folk, though - a houseful of happy countenances who are there to follow your lead (read 'demand') without question.
does anyone know if the kids have to still take the acts? i took them and never went to college.
regarding JB and M being in the big house alone;well,if the girls don't get married till their 30's or so,that time could very well be a long way off.
as to what they would do with the house once Jb and M are gone...depends on their will.but I can't imagine they would take it out of the family by auctioning it off and selling the property and land.am guessing one of the kids with a family of his or her own at that time would move into it.and perhaps they will take turns with it,who knows.Bu from what we've seen of the Duggar family,I just can't imagine JB willingly giving up the homestead,not even after death.
New pictures of Josie (well, I hadn't seen them) here:
http://press.discovery.com/us/tlc/programs/19-kids-and-counting-season-2-b/
She looks better, but still very "syndromey" to me. Maybe other premie moms can comment on her appearance.
Several of those pictures look like when she first came home weeks and weeks ago. She's looking just fine for a micro-preemie.
I think Josie looks adorable in the pictures. She´s starting to look a lot like Jordan as she fills out.
Someone mentioned earlier that Josh could be studying the Gothard law program, which would allow him to sit for the California bar. There is no way that the program would allow him anywhere near the California bar. The Gothard program would not be accredited by any state. I know of many California law schools whose students aren't allowed to sit for the bar. No way would a Gothard program be approved.
As someone who sat for and passed the California bar, there is no way the program would even provide enough education to even think of passing the bar.
Besides, can you imagine Gothard teaching about equal protection for women, minorities and children? Someone might get te idea to run for the hills.
I can´t claim to know who tends to the little ones in the night, but I do remember Michelle talking about how a full night´s sleep is hard to come by. I also remember when she was answering questions on the ¨Ask the Duggar¨episode, she got up in the middle of it as soon as she heard Jordan cry and went off to take care of her. She didn´t call out to one of her daughters to see what Jordan needed.
On the commercials for the new episodes, Jana says she is upset that she won't be seeing her mother for two months when she goes on the Asia trip. I'm not sure how many twenty year old women would admit that on television.
How old do you think the older Duggar daughters need to be before they are referred to as women rather than girls?
Yes, a Gothard law program: the mind boggles at the concept.
I can only imagine Gothard's/Duggar's teachings on constitutional rights (including abortion & alcohol sales), separation of church & state, and civil rights for all (including women.
I think it's laughable that ANY of the graduates of The Dining Room Table are prepared for ANY kind of real college curriculum of any weight/substance.
There is no way that the program would allow him anywhere near the California bar. The Gothard program would not be accredited by any state.
Sadly, not true.
http://www.obcl.edu/
"The State of California permits one to become a licensed attorney after completing a course of study through distance learning/correspondence/online law schools. By taking CLEP exams, or by completing 60 semester credit hours of course work toward an undergraduate degree, a student can satisfy the pre-legal education requirements to enroll in law school.
Oak Brook College of Law is one school that accepts students without an undergraduate degree if they have demonstrated equivalent intellectual achievement through the College-Level Examination Program (CLEP)."
Whether or not Josh could CLEP his way to admissions is one question, but if he did, Oak Brook would accept him. And if he completed their program, he could sit for the CA bar. Although that would not automatically qualify him to practice in AR, admission to the CA bar would, I believe, allow him to qualify for the AR bar exam.
A roundabout way of getting there, but possible.
Anonymous at 12:09 said...
How old do you think the older Duggar daughters need to be before they are referred to as women rather than girls?
My Mom had 6 "girls" until the day she died when we were 45 to 62 years of age!
However, I know what you mean. We onlookers need to start seeing the older Duggar females as women, not little girls - but we can't change the way parents see/treat their offspring.
No, the California bar would not qualify anyone to practice in Arkansas straight out. Also while California allows correspondence school students to take a test at the end of the first year to see if they qualify to continue and if they are then successful with that and the next two years, to pay them a nice fee and sit for the exam, the pass rate is a pitiful one out of a hundred or less. Quite a hurdle.
The reason Michelle got up and tended to Jordyn was because no one else was home, she even said so when she had to get up and go take care of her. If one of the older girls were home, Michelle would not have got up to get her.
The reason Michelle got up and tended to Jordyn was because no one else was home, she even said so when she had to get up and go take care of her. If one of the older girls were home, Michelle would not have got up to get her.
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She was in the middle of doing an interview for the show, HAD another person been available I'm quite sure they would have gone, that does not on the other hand mean we automatically assume that had Michelle been doing something else that she would not have stopped and gone to see to the baby.
When adults are talking to other adults, and or talking on the phone we teach our children not to interrupt, and to wait their turn (patiently is the goal LOL). When we have infants though they can't learn to "wait their turn" so we excuse ourselves from the conversation and go see to them. IF there is another adult (or older child) around most of us will ask that adult to go see what the issue is while we get off the phone or get out of the conversation...
How many of us can say that when we are busy doing something, and the baby wakes up, haven't wished the baby waited a few more minutes or an extra hand to go get the baby while we finish what we are doing?... I've sent the 8yr old after the baby while I was dealing with the 3yr old... AND I've done it in daycare settings and while being a Nanny... those parents never had an issue with it. Why do we when Michelle does it?
I would have had a BIGGER issue if she had continued to let the baby cry (we couldn't hear it on the audio) while she finished what she was doing, and or gone on to do other things while letting the baby "learn to wait" which IS taught by several of the books and I think Gothard...
" If delegating most of the household duties (including home schooling) while mom is on the computer posting to/chatting with with her "like-minded" friends or absorbed in her next pregnancy and/or bed-ridden for months on end is what constitutes "being there with the kids", then by golly, they are right. "
When have we ever, ever seen Michelle do any of those things? I have never seen Michelle doing any of these things in all the footage we've ever seen. I've been impressed with how well she continues to function during pregnancy, even though she admits to feeling tired and sick during the first trimester of each pregnancy. I don't see how it's possible that Michelle is doing anything other than running her butt off from the time she gets up in the morning till she falls into bed at night. One might not like or approve of Michelle, but there's just no evidence at all to support any of those claims.
"And all this takes place every day because the older girls are in charge of making it happen. They cook the meals and clean up afterwards. They get their younger siblings up and dressed (or supervise the process, because they are their "buddies"), they also clean the house. The household is a well-oiled machine because they have three fulltime unpaid staff that do the bulk of the work, plus a number of younger part-timers to fill in the gaps."
I get how people think that the house runs because of the girls, I really do. But, I know something about the realities of actually making this happen, because I have 7, going on 8, children. My oldest three are girls and have significant responsibilities
similar to the tasks the Duggar girls have. My girls have more outside activities than the Duggar girls do, but they still have more responsibilties at home than other girls their age.
And let me tell you, the work my girls do barely scratches the surface of what gets done around here. And I only have seven! I am still the mom, and the buck stops with me. There is so so much to do. I just don't see how Michelle could possibly have absolved herself of all responsibility and that her girls are doing it all. I can see how people assume her girls are doing everything because they have the responsibilities they do, but I'm telling you, I really don't think that is what's happening over there. It's the "many hands make light work" principle. Each of those girls individually isn't overworked, the work they do together is significant because of their combined efforts. And I don't think Michelle is getting out of anything.
I do think the girls could stand to have more outside activities/be going to college, etc., but that's a whole different topic and I don't think it's related to the amount of work they do at home. I think it's the Duggars' belief system - even if they only had four or five kids and there weren't any youngers to attend to, I think we'd see the older girls still at home. I don't fully understand their thought process here, to each their own.
I think you proved the point Cyn, had someone else been there Michelle would not have got up and tended to Jordyn. Another poster made it sound as if Michelle jumps as soon as her baby makes a sound and that was not the case in the ask the Duggar episode, there was no one else to get the baby so it had to be Michelle. If someone else was there she would have let them tend to her. Of course she needed to go to her and not let her cry and continue the interview that is what a mother does.
Someone mentioned a rule about "no pajamas downstairs" which is why they have meetings at night up in the bedrooms, etc. That got me to thinking: does the fundie dress code apply at night too? Are the girls allowed to wear pajamas with pants, or tee-shirts and pajama shorts to bed, or are they still under the dress/skirt rule even at night?
I have a picture of them having to wear chin to toe long-sleeved flannel nightgowns, even on hot summer nights. Anyone who has insider fundie info know the answer to this? Is the dress code relaxed in nightwear or still enforced? I would hope they could at least choose their sleepwear and be comfortable for what few hours of sleep they do get.
I hear ya Nicole on how "many hands make light work." I come from a large family myself (8 children in all), and all of use had daily and weekly chores to help around the house and the yard.
But my point about the Duggar girls having an unfair work load is based on specifics that the Duggars have shared, and not on speculation:
1. It has been made very clear that it is the older Duggar girls who do the meal preparation and clean up.
2. It has been made clear that it is the older Duggar girls who do the bulk of the housework (jurisdictions), while the boys apparently are responsible for keeping their room tidied up and cleaning their bathroom.
3. It has been made clear that the girls dormitory room is where all the weaned babies get sent to for night time sleeping. Even if Michele wakes up to tend to a crying infant, it still must wake up the older girls, and I have a feeling that they are supposed to try to take care of that baby's needs before bothering Mom.
4. What is less clear but seems logical, especially within the past year, is that the older girls are probably now responsible for teaching the younger siblings. Michelle surely hasn't had the time to do so, and I don't see JimBob stepping up to the plate. No one else has been shown (except one lady, briefly) as stepping into the teacher role.
5. Also less clear, but who does the grocery shopping? Josh is out of the house, and the next oldest boy is busy with his towing business. I think the next youngest boy may not yet have a driver's license -- so my guess is the older girls must do the necessary grocery shopping as well.
Just exactly how much work does a child have to contribute to a household before someone says, "hey, these kids sure do work a lot, for no money, and very little vacation time!"?
With all these daily chores, it's no wonder the older girls can't pursue any sort of higher education. They don't have the time, nor the money.
My mom did the bulk of the cooking and grocery shopping for our household. However, as we got older, each child had one night of the week that was theirs to prepare dinner. Other children would take turns in setting the table, clearing the table, and washing the dishes. My mom did laundry, but we folded it and put it away as needed.
On week-ends, we divvied up the household chores: one kid per bathroom, one did the vaccuuming and dusting downstairs, another did the same upstairs, yet another changed all the beds and put new sheets on. We also had chores outside, like sweep the patio, feed the chickens, cats and dogs, take care of the sheep, help load and carry firewood, wash the cars, etc.
So I know about helping out around the house. Still, we had our own rooms to retire to at night, we weren't given babies to sleep in pak-n-plays in our bedrooms, we participated in after school sports, theatrics, had part time jobs, spent time with friends, etc.
I feel so bad for those older girls, who have been working so hard since quite young because their mom and dad are trying to become famous for having lots and lots of children.
I like this family because everyone seems happy, well- adjusted, loving and kind. However, my only complaint is watching Anna grope her husband incessantly. Her behaviour reeks of insecurity the way she ogles him and is constantly grabbing his hand to hold. If I were Josh, I would feel smothered. Can't stand women like that. And the way she kisses him is sort of irritating. Like a guppy.
I can´t claim to know who tends to the little ones in the night, but I do remember Michelle talking about how a full night´s sleep is hard to come by. I also remember when she was answering questions on the ¨Ask the Duggar¨episode, she got up in the middle of it as soon as she heard Jordan cry and went off to take care of her. She didn´t call out to one of her daughters to see what Jordan needed.
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This scenario was during the night when Jordyn was still nursing and in the alcove of JB's and M's bedroom. I can see her getting up during those first six months to breastfeed. No problem with that.
During the episode where Michelle did the Q&A, yes, Jordyn had "soiled her diaper" and because the four oldest were at the ATI retreat in Wisconsin at the time, Michelle had to get up to tend to her. I imagine before Michelle sat before the camera that day, Jordyn had been well-fed, so of course, under those circumstances, she would excuse herself. BUT if even one of the older daughters was home at the time, they would have taken care of Jordyn, leaving Michelle free to continue her interview.
I imagine this scenario plays out a lot, and with Josie still requiring frequent feeds that aren't coming from the breast, I bet y'all dollars to donuts that the girls rotate night feedings so Michelle can get her beauty sleep. Seeing that she actually has more mothering to do with this baby girl, I have no doubt that Michelle sleeps like a log at night.
I just keep thinking about the bags under the girls' eyes; yes, they can be inherited, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Those girls were worked to the bone before Josie was born; it's likely far worse for them now that Michelle has to devote her time to Josie. But hopefully NOT in that stupid Brest Friend sling. Seeing Jordyn's feet dangling out from under that blanket was enough. Josie deserves better.
Of course she needed to go to her and not let her cry and continue the interview that is what a mother does.
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I think you missed my point. Gothard (ATI) and several other people that they endorse or follow DO teach to let the baby cry, to learn that the world does not center around the baby. To teach babies as old a Jordyn was in that video, that they have to wait, and not be as demanding and other tripe such as these...
I found it frankly refreshing that she did NOT follow those teachings.
PS my other point was she didn't HAVE to get up if no one was there, and though she might have wanted to she wouldn't have HAD to interrupt her conversations; that's what older siblings are for, to help.
1. It has been made very clear that it is the older Duggar girls who do the meal preparation and clean up.
>>> One of the older girls (it swaps) does the cooking, with helpers. The entire family helps in clean up from doing the dishes to cleaning the tables to sweeping the floor. (MOST of this is discussed in the book)
2. It has been made clear that it is the older Duggar girls who do the bulk of the housework (jurisdictions), while the boys apparently are responsible for keeping their room tidied up and cleaning their bathroom.
>>>Bulk maybe simply because they are older and bigger not simply because they are girls. On the other hand there are 4 teams headed by the oldest 4 girls. It's not like 1 older girl is cleaning the bathroom alone she has got 4 other helpers. Same thought process applies to every other household chore. The boys take out the trash, do the yard work (they do have 30 acres), along with helping inside the house. We have seen them come from all corners of the house to help fold and put away laundry. I have heard Michelle call on the intercom system to have a BOY bring laundry down.
3. It has been made clear that the girls dormitory room is where all the weaned babies get sent to for night time sleeping. Even if Michele wakes up to tend to a crying infant, it still must wake up the older girls, and I have a feeling that they are supposed to try to take care of that baby's needs before bothering Mom.
>>The last 4-5 (I lost count) have been GIRLS so of course they would go to the girls room, unless you are suggesting that the baby girl needs to go to the boys room... I have seen the baby monitors scattered around the house so it's OUR speculation that the girls get up to tend the babies, not fact. I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that since they have the monitors MICHELLE would hear the baby and go to see to her/him.
Continued....
"The last 4-5 (I lost count) have been GIRLS so of course they would go to the girls room, unless you are suggesting that the baby girl needs to go to the boys room"
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Yes, why not a girl infant in a boys' room? "Infant" being the operative word. Surely even the Duggars can't find anything unsavory about a boy changing a female infant's diaper.
Or could they?
4. What is less clear but seems logical, especially within the past year, is that the older girls are probably now responsible for teaching the younger siblings. (snipped for space)
>>> Flash cards with the younger kids, and even at that it's each one teach one mentality... Johannah was "teaching" Jennifer and Jordyn. They brought in helpers, and former teachers and we even saw JimBob working with the kids. One of the older girls monitors the grades and lets the parents know if one needs help in an area. (We've only seen this chaos for little over 6 months if that)
5. Also less clear, but who does the grocery shopping? (snipped for space)
>>>With the fact that the Duggars do meal planning, it would be simple to send Dad to the grocery store with the list and a few of the middle kids. If not, then one of the now 6+ drivers in the house could do the shopping w/wo younger kids helping. Other than doing it for the show Michelle has talked about going several times a week to the store so they don't overwhelm the cashier with 20 buggies going through one line. With a list we're talking less than an hours work because when you get HOME, you have 15 helpers bringing the food in and putting it away.
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(snipped for space) They don't have the time, nor the money.
>>>> Every child is paid for their chores (rate varies for age). They also have college funds set up for at least the oldest ones if not all 19 of them by now. (discussed in the book)
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On week-ends, we divvied up the household chores: one kid per bathroom, (snipped for space).
Where as your family had ONE child per chore the Duggars use 4-5. How much faster is the bed made when you have a kid at each corner? Or if you have 4 kids with brooms on the patios?
Sorry this is so long Anon simply gave me the springboard to make me nail down all the nebulous thoughts I've had for months watching this unfold on this and other blogs.
Yes, why not a girl infant in a boys' room? "Infant" being the operative word. Surely even the Duggars can't find anything unsavory about a boy changing a female infant's diaper.
Or could they?
Dunno about the Duggars but DCS (Department of Children) or CPS (child protective services)DOES, they had issues with the sleeping arrangements at our house when I had 4 kids in one bedroom, the AMOUNT of children wasn't the issue it was the fact that I had mixed the sexes. We had 2 bedrooms so we put the 4 oldest in bunk beds(in the largest bedroom) and the youngest in the room with us. DCS told us that we either had to move the girls into the bedroom with us, and the boys in the room alone or the boys into our room and girls into there. Oh and the ages of the kids? The oldest was 11 the youngest was 1.
While I appreciate that people follow the Duggars very closely..All the episodes, the interviews read the book, etc..
Things change...Michelle DID get up in the middle of the night to do laundry but that was before they built the big house and have numerous washers and dryers, I bet she hasn't gotten up in the middle of the night to do laundry in a while.
The book was written several years..I can only imagine that things have changed since they wrote it. Josh married, they have had several more children, etc. And are they really going to admit in the book that the girls do so much work? That JB & M move the babies to another room at six months so the buddies can watch them? I think of it as a Christmas letter..everything is wonderful, the family is wonderful, etc but just underneath the surface things are fixin to blow.
IMO we see what we want..Six people can watch the same thing and see six different things..
discussed in the book)
Isn't "the book" old news? There are more of them now, and Michelle has been understandably very occupied with the most recent infant.
I question Michelle or JB tending to the kids in the night. I've never seen Michelle looking like she has been up all night with a sick child, yet, we have seen the older girls looking very fatigued. The baby monitors might be for the buddies to keep their ears out for what's going on all over the house.
As for many hands making light work, I agree, but many people make for a lot of work for the "few hands" (older girls).
I'm also doubting how much outside work on the 30 acres that any of those boys are doing. The area around the house, or even around the front door, doesn't appear to be planted, let alone landscaped. The men-boyfolk do not look like they are use to physical labor.
re- Mixed sexes in the same room
So infant girls can't sleep with older boys but toddler boys can sleep with older girls?
That makes sense **shaking head**
They are mowing it, it nothing else and even on a farm sized lawn mower that's going to take work.
The baby monitors I saw were in Michelle's room, in G'ma's room (probably for when G'pa was still alive) and with Michelle.
As for the book being old news, and or there being more kids... If it worked for the first 14-16 kids and almost 20 years of marriage why change it now? Though I do agree Michelle is no longer getting up in the middle of the night to do the laundry (not with the ones they have now) I don't think have changed as much as we think they have.
Girls with dark circles under their eyes staid up to long the night before giggling and talking and or texting on their cell phones. The kids have mentioned several times that they tend to stay up late in their bedrooms talking and giggling with each other.
One last note then I'll hush... Common or not MY kids slept through the night from 6 months (longest it took any of my kids) on, or once they were weaned to formula and baby food. In 18 years of parenting and 5 years of being a nanny before I had my first child, I can count on both hands the nights I had to get up to feed or help a child past the 6 month mark... But then again I purposed to make it so, I put the babies on a schedule from week 2 on, that had them up and awake during the day, with short little naps, and the last feeding at 10pm worked like a charm.
re- Mixed sexes in the same room
So infant girls can't sleep with older boys but toddler boys can sleep with older girls?
That makes sense **shaking head**
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Falling asleep in the bed is different than the child's bed being in the room... Like I said I dunno about the Duggars I just know what DCS's rules were. (ticked me off too)
Falling asleep in the bed is different than the child's bed being in the room... Like I said I dunno about the Duggars I just know what DCS's rules were. (ticked me off too)
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What is the difference? The Duggars don't have that much privacy. They have a family closet, bedrooms with 10 other people in it, really all they do in the bedroom is have family time and sleep.
What I think is very clear is that when it comes to how we, as individuals, view the Duggars - we'll never likely agree. Some feel that the older daughters are unfairly burdened, while others feel it's not unfair at all.
While I appreciate being directed to read the Duggars book, I'm not going to. I come here to discuss what I've seen in snippets on the television show, and if they give an interview, etc. But I'm not really interested in reading their book, even on loan from the library.
Suffice it to say I don't find much to admire about the Duggars, and enjoy having this place to share my thoughts on why I think Mr. and Mrs. are fame addicts and too full of themselves, while the kids at home do all the work.
Although I did give myself a laugh when I read about how many acres of land they have. JimBob needs to get outdoors and busy more often, he's putting on some serious weight around the belly. Enough with the talking JimBob, and a lot more physical exercise. He's only going to keep packing on the pounds if he doesn't have the self-discipline to cut back on sweets and soda, and get more physically active.
is the pajama rule so the boys don't see the girls in their pj's? or are they all in their pj's for the bedtime meetings? If everyone is in pj's at that time, then the girls' nighttime attire may very well be strict,or it might just include a robe to cover their pj's till they get to bed.just a thought.
The no privacy thing is bothersome. Those older girls should not be sleeping with babies, and aren't allowed even enough privacy to get a good night's sleep.
This family will implode one day. It isn't natural what they're doing, and when one upsets the balance of nature and normal, weird stuff happens. It's only a matter of time.
"Falling asleep in the bed is different than the child's bed being in the room... Like I said I dunno about the Duggars I just know what DCS's rules were."
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Can anyone help me understand the logic that an opposite sex child falling asleep in bed with another child is somehow more appropriate than having an opposite sexed child's crib in a bedroom??
"What I think is very clear is that when it comes to how we, as individuals, view the Duggars - we'll never likely agree. Some feel that the older daughters are unfairly burdened, while others feel it's not unfair at all."
And some of us feel that barring outright abuse, it's really not up to me to decide whether it's unfair or not. Every family is different. Lots of things work. Happy, healthy, productive kids come from all walks of life.
In response to Cyn's comment about the girls up all night "giggling," I would like to point out that when I saw Jessa looking burnt out, she also (on camera) bungled "wedding renewal" into a "removal" and her defense was that she'd only had two hours of sleep.
This was when they were furiously getting reading for said renewal. Michelle didn't appear to be doing much work, other than order JB around when they put up the butcher paper at the church to hide the Welcome booth.
We also haven't seen her teaching the little ones (up to 3rd grade when their computerized schooling takes over...one less thing Michelle has to do) in quite a while, aside from one scene when a five year old couldn't properly write some letters. I work with kids that age who are generally underprivileged (many with parents who are on drugs or in jail), and even the least advanced of them could write his name when I last saw him a week ago.
FWIW, the book said the children got $.03/jurisdiction. I do not recall any age distinction or mention of "college funds." Why have a college fund if, given their beliefs, there is absolutely no chance they will attend (or be able to test up to standards to be accepted in the first place)? They should be straight up and admit those funds are actually to start businesses or dowries.
I think the disingenuous nature of Duggarspeak is what bothers me most about them. JB is a politician through and through.
Most happy, healthy, productive families from all walks of life do not put themselves on television for money and then call it "encouraging others", which is exactly what the Duggars are doing.
I'd agree that "happy, healthy" and "TV fame hoor" do not actually go together.
Happy, healthy and productive families don't sell themselves out to the highest bidder, compromising themselves and their values for the almighty dollar.
Was, watching an older recent episode, where they were going to Bates home to see the progress. Jimbob met their chief editor at the hockey game. Jimbob was explaining how the editor does his job and then the editor himself: said that he goes through hundreds of video and is suppose to be putting together the best of the Duggars, to show them at their best? As, I have said before, they need to get a different editor or Jimbob really needs to see what is going to be put on TV, before it is. This guy does a lousy job.
"Happy, healthy and productive families don't sell themselves out to the highest bidder, compromising themselves and their values for the almighty dollar."
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Neither do the genuinely modest, and humble......
FWIW, the book said the children got $.03/jurisdiction. I do not recall any age distinction or mention of "college funds." (snipped for space)
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P118 covers what the chores are (or can be) and they cover getting dressed, making bed, brushing teeth, putting up their PJ's... all of which they get paid for. Simply by doing the "chore packs" (lists for the older ones) such as those listed above they can earn up to $21.00 a month, and we have no idea (since it's not listed) if they do or do not pay more to the older ones for larger chores (mowing the lawn, cooking dinner, making clothes for the other kids, and so forth) their afternoon "chore packs" list things such as school work, music practice etc
p190-192 Talks about "preparing for adult life" They discussing shadowing people in the profession they think they want to do, and spend a few days or a week with that professional. "We will encourage them to do that before going to college for four years, then deciding they don't like the job they've trained for" "If one of our children is called to a specialized field, such as medicine, we will help him or her prepare for it."
The Duggars college fund I thought was in the book (I had to reread it tonight to make sure) was actually in an early interview they did:
"We're saving for our children's education, but we figure only some will want to go to college. Others might go into the ministry or learn a trade." http://www.parents.com/parents/printableStory.jsp?catref=prt40&storyid=/templatedata/parents/story/data/5432.xml
Jill is looking into colleges right now (or was back in May) http://blogs.discovery.com/tlc-michelle-duggar-blog/ (middle of the page)
As for the teaching by Michelle we have seen only snippets of ANY schooling going on. Mostly as intro's to the show, and a few spots here and there mostly this past season, where they were discussing how they were doing school work with Michelle being in the hospital and then with the whole family in Little Rock. I personally would attribute that to it being very hard to concentrate with a camera crew around (any one remember James and his lost book?, and the smaller ones at the kitchen table coloring pages?).
"they need to get a different editor or Jimbob really needs to see what is going to be put on TV, before it is. This guy does a lousy job."
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Life in Duggarville doesn't give a film editor much to work with - can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as the saying goes. Duggar life is what it is.
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