Free Discussion July 2011

Please use this for Duggar sightings, speculation, or general discussion. Note that this is Duggar discussion not other families, TV shows, politics, or personal stories. Thank you!

108 comments:

michelle said...

I'm wondering about the show's lifespan. Will we still be hearing about new Duggar episodes in 2012, 2013, and beyond? How will the Duggars's lives change if the show ends (Josh and Anna included).

msrylee said...

IMO, as long as a Duggar female reproduces, there may be a show. Time will tell. As to how the Duggars' lives would change should the gig end, time will tell that as well. As Michelle may not reproduce again, it is up to Anna, any future daughters-in-law, and the eldest Duggar blessings. We know that the oldest daughters are not in a position to enlarge the clan, due to their roles as sibs/mommies/nannies. We will see what happens.

Happy Canada Day to my fellow Canadians!!

Sharla said...

Merely my opinion but the show will continue as long as it is making money for TLC. Viewership has been lower the last year so as soon as TLC sees it drop below their profit making point, it will be gone.

The Hayes sextuplets faded away as did the NY tups. The funny fat family lasted a season and a quarter. The father of the Jones quints blogged that it looked like they were being canceled. I can't remember all the numbers but I think it was getting below 800,000 or maybe 700,000 and staying there that lead to the end. I think the last number I saw for the weight loss family was around 695,000.

michelle said...

I have wondered about the ratings of the Duggars. I also don't know if baby number twenty (if Michelle can conceive anymore) will create a positive uproar in ratings or a downturn

michelle said...

In my opinion, the Duggars will be on the Today show every time anyone has another baby even without the TLC show.It seems that the Duggars are set for life

NJMom said...

The Duggars have been around for a really long time, (7 years), and the Gosselins nearly as long. It's probably harder for TLC to let go of a show that has aired for many years than one that just lasted a season or two like the Hayes and Jones. Trading Places was on the air for at least 10 years, and the Roloff's cancellation with ratings still over 1 million per show was somewhat surprising.

sandi said...

I suspect their lives,money wise,wouldn't change much.They probably have a lot of investments at this point, and could always do more talks and performances,and magazine inteveiws.

heavennoseven said...

I dont worry about Jim Bob and his family. He does know to manage money as he did before TLC came along.


I do worry about Josh. He has to pay workers,pay for cars that may never sell etc. Anna no longer works free for him, and they have two kids in diapers and I am sure she will have more kids.



I wonder if Josh has taken the no debt class.



Congrats to Zach Bates :).

michelle said...

I wonder how Anna really feels having a camera crew around filming moments such as babies births, moving from car lot to car lot, having to be up at the wee morning hours for Today Show appearances and all that goes along with being part of a famous (and huge) family

Jen R. said...

I'm confused about Amy's place in the whole show. She is not a Duggar child,and while I can't speak on her faitb, she certainly does not maintain the lifestyle. She's not mentioned in the book(s) and yet is on the book tour. It just looks as though she is riding coat tails and it is really kinda sad.

michelle said...

I get the feeling that the Duggars could do without cousin Amy and would rather her stay in her own little world and not cross into their's too often. During the wedding episode it Amy was the one who initiated the car decorating and shoving cake in Josh's face (Anna did not look happy about either of those).

Rose said...

Amy appears to me to have a similar sense of humor to Jim Bob - sophomoric. I'd imagine that grates on anyone over the age of say 12.

I *heart* Austen said...

She's not mentioned in the book(s) and yet is on the book tour. It just looks as though she is riding coat tails and it is really kinda sad.

===================================

When Amy posted that she and the boyfriend introduced on the last episode had broken up, Anna's sister Rebekah (the one that Suze lives with in Houston) chimed in that all Amy cared about was the attention and that her next boyfriend wouldn't last long either. Amy shot back something about her relationships being "godly" or some such, but I'm sorry...that girl is a CINO (Christian in name only).

She's totally in this to try and launch a singing career and uses the cross when it's convenient. What's sad is that so many of her "fans" fall for that pap she posts.

Rebekah has her pagged and Amy, by deleting that particular thread when word started to spread about that comment, pretty much confirmed that Rebekah is dead on in her assessment.

FWIW, Amy is still claiming she's a nanny, yet says she's going to be doing a lot of travel this summer. I don't know who finances her wardrobe, but it sure isn't on a nanny's salary. And what family would employ someone who is on the road for weeks at a time?

Amy is the one who should be panicking when this stream of promotion ends for her.

hart&sole said...

If 19 kids and counting's viewing audience declines perhaps the Gothardites will decide having a TV to be Godly. Those numbers alone would be a sizable audience! Who ever would have guessed there were so many uber conservatives in the United States? If Michelle gets pregnant with number 20 the ratings will skyrocket. If John David or Jana courts, oh my, and if all three things happen? The Duggars ship will come in and dock!

roddma said...

"Anna's sister Rebekah (the one that Suze lives with in Houston) chimed in that all Amy cared about was the attention and that her next boyfriend wouldn't last long either. "
Attention is why the Duggars do a show in the first place. They may have started the show for other reasons and got use to the attention. I think Amy is kept around to make them look normal and accepting of others not like them. Supposedly it was Amy who defended them on one site a few years back before the regular series started. She rambled about how they had no debt and their kids didn't have the latest gadgets. She must have seen more of the world since then and obviously changed her views.

Jen R. said...

Amy is not as good looking as her cousins and does not seem to have much of a personality beyond high school. I get the impression that she is quite obnoxious and that may be why nothing has materialized for her as of this point. Bottomline: If she had any sustainable talent it would have been "discovered" by now.

I do predict before the year is over Anna will be pregnant yet again. She and Josh seem to be playing such a cute game of house right now.

michelle said...

I think Josh and Anna seem very cutesy together. The way I see it, Anna appears to have life pretty good. She has an income (including TLC), does not have to balance work and college like some her age doing essays, term papers, tests, or anything (like I have to). Sometimes when I am sitting in class listening to the professor drone on and on, I wish I was a duggar..

heavennoseven said...

I dont think Anna has it easy. She has too young kids, a house and Josh to take care off. I also dont think they would be able to afford so much without TLC.

Bigmumma said...

I think Josh and Anna will be fine without the show. Josh is very well educated in managing finances, he has received TLC paychecks for years, and likely has a nice nest egg, He owns his home free and clear, and his employees work on commission.

Amy has been close to her cousins her whole life ( i.e. old home videos) and I suspect her role on the show is simply that, she is close to her cousins. i think she provides an interesting contrast as well.

Rose said...

I admit to a bit of confusion. Has Josh really received TLC paychecks for years or just since his marriage to Anna? TLC normally only pays "the family" entity. Also did Grandma give Josh the house? It was her rental property. Are they possibly paying her rent or she's living with Duggars rent free in exchange for Josh and Anna living in her house?

We all make assumptions about the show based on what we might think is happening but it may not be reality.

I think Cousin Amy could be close friends with the Duggars and still never appear on the show. I also think the cameras are there a lot more than anyone wants to let us think and that may be why we get so much Amy.

mom in texas said...

heavennoseven said:
I dont think Anna has it easy. She has too young kids, a house and Josh to take care off. I also dont think they would be able to afford so much without TLC.
________________________________

I do agree. I don't think Anna has it easy. She has two very young children and all signs point to the fact that, unless God says different, these won't be her last. She has a husband who is trying his best to build a business and a modest little home to take care of. Anna herself is very young as well. However I won't say they wouldn't be able to afford their lifestyle without TLC. Jim Bob and Michelle built their home as well as lived (although somewhat meagerly) before the TLC show. However this is the life Anna chose. Yes, she was raised with certain beliefs and chose to marry Josh and continue to live this lifestyle with these principles. But she could have gone the way of some of her siblings and lived her life the way she wanted to. She could be in college or working or still married but living a much different life had she married someone else who wasn't raised in the TLC lime light.

msrylee said...

Is there proof that Josh owns his house outright, and that he has received paycheques from TLC for years? This is a reality show, and what we see isn't necessarily the way it really is.

Religilicious said...

"Amy appears to me to have a similar sense of humor to Jim Bob - sophomoric. I'd imagine that grates on anyone over the age of say 12"

**********************************

Good observation, and I absolutely agree. JimBob's attempt at humor are embarrassing. HE is the joke.

Cyn said...

G'PA owned the house not G'ma.

They told us G'pa gave them the house in the episode where Josh and Anna drove up from FL.

They also showed us the condition of the house while Josh was cleaning it up and revamping it. While not quite as bad as the house they just cleaned up, it needed a lot of cosmetic work when Josh took ownership of it.

According to CO taxes Josh owns the house... and the rest of the Duggars have been busy as well...

https://www.ark.org/washingtoncounty/index.php

Type Duggar in the name area and you will see what I mean. (you have to scroll down to the name area) He paid a whopping total of 79.20 in property taxes last year.

msrylee said...

Thanks for the info about the title to Josh's house, etc. I am unable to access the site you gave, but you answered my questions.

ennvee said...

About those property records: it appears that Deanna's house is a tract house and Mary co-owns it. However, there are no other addresses listed in her name as residential property. So where is this house the gang cleaned out on a recent episode, since it was mentioned that it was next door (or close to) one of her rental properties?

Also of note were the liens on the Duggar land. I counted three, but I didn't scroll down the entire list. Wouldn't having liens against the property violate the "debt free" lifestyle Jim Bob constantly boasts about?

The fact they have their assets in a trust gives me less hope that the unmarried kids will see any TLC money until both Duggar parents are gone. Even worse, Jim Bob and Michelle could be like my parents and have 50 beneficiaries who are not direct family members AND the family to divide the money between. I could totally see them giving a big chunk of change to Gothard and far-right, anti-choice organizations rather than their children.

Cyn said...

To be perfectly honest I don't know enough about property to answer that.

I did notice the word lien did show up, on the screens when I hit the back button, but weren't there when it does the original search.

I was hoping some one that did understand either that website, or if there are actual liens on the properties. I do know there are more entries on that site than there was when I found it in 2009...

MandySue said...

The reason the addresses are all the same is because that s where the tax statement goes. If you click on the property there is a legal description (pt NE NW 10-17-30) that is the actual property of the house.

The numbers ending in 000 are real property (land.)

The shorter numbers are personal property (cars, boats, rv's anything that is not attached permanently to land.) The way I saw was that Jim Bob and Michelle and Mary have a lot of property.

Unless Josh's house isn't in Washington County the house isn't in him name; he was not accessed for it.

I work for a title company in Arkansas and the county where I work automatically updates the tax records from the Deeds that are filed. Washington County may not be like that but there would be some way to update it so they could bill the right person for the taxes.

Sometimes if there is an escrow and a third party is paying the taxes property MIGHT show up in their name but since Josh doesn't have a mortgage that shouldn't be a problem.

I should add that Josh doesn't have any property in his name in Washington County.

I hope that helped some.

Cyn said...

If MandySue is correct then I stand corrected.

What ever it is that's in Josh and Anna's name is registered to the correct house cause when you google map it you see their house.

Which is why I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that it was the house.

Religilicious said...

"Also of note were the liens on the Duggar land. I counted three, but I didn't scroll down the entire list. Wouldn't having liens against the property violate the "debt free" lifestyle Jim Bob constantly boasts about?"

**********************************

It appears JimBob and Michelle need a refresher course in 'debt free living'.

Possibly also needed is a refresher course in ethics, since liens are typically not issued for those who pay their debts in a timely manner.

Liens against their property speaks more truth about the Duggars than their 'reality' show.

The Duggars are a BRAND. They are not reality.

MandySue said...

That is probably the house they live but its not in their name. It's probably in Jim Bob's or Grandma's name.

In real estate a lien just isn't when you don't pay your bills but when you have a loan or when you buy something (like siding) and you get a loan for it. Anything that uses the property as collateral is a lien.

ennvee said...

An hour-long radio interview with Michelle and Anna done this morning before heading out to the ATL for their book signing engagement(s).

If you don't have time to listen (I had to multi-task, but the format was well-structured, so answers were clear and Michelle didn't have much time to get political, though the character qualities stuff was mentioned several times.

In other Duggar news: It appears that TLC is going to foot a bill for them to travel abroad. I guess with no kids or weddings forthcoming, they need to do something to boost sagging ratings. Now THAT will be a trainwreck worth watching, as they further trash the reputation of Americans abroad. Upside: they only talked about Ireland, so at least Jim Bob won't embarrass himself with language barriers.

Jill (and I think Jana and John David) are going on a 6 week mission trip (Gothard sponsored, of course) to Peru very soon.

Anna confirmed that her post-homeschool education was unaccredited distance-learning, not affiliated with College Minus, but likely Gothard, since they offer a "degree" in Early Childhood Education. Finally, we can put that horse out to pasture.

For those who can take the baby voices and Anna's "ummmms" every other word (as bad as a teenager saying "like"), here's the link:

Michelle and Anna appeared on Living the Dream Mom Radio this morning with all kinds of announcements. Someone actually braved listening to the entire thing with that baby voice in full force.

http://www.toginet.com/shows/livingthedreammom

Go to the right hand side of the page and find the podcast for 7/7.

Jen R. said...

Nevermind, I predict when Anna pops out baby #3 it will be a one hur special because the Duggars will have been cancelled. What a silly concept. I don't want to cringe in embarrassment as they are loose all over Europe. It was a fun show while it lasted.

mybestbuds said...

Hello Everyone. I think Michelle and Jim Bob are excellent parents and I really look up to them for setting examples with my own boys. I was just wondering, and had a question. If Michelle and Jim Bob were not able to be as financially stable as they are now would they still be having more kids? I only ask because I have two children and financially it is difficult at times because prices and housing are so expensive nowadays. So if I added more children I think I would absolutely be at the poverty line. So would they have stopped having children if they weren't financially capable?

Religilicious said...

"In real estate a lien just isn't when you don't pay your bills but when you have a loan or when you buy something (like siding) and you get a loan for it. Anything that uses the property as collateral is a lien."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

One of the pieces of the Duggar brand is their constant claim that they live 'debt free'. Using property for loan collateral is bad business sense PLUS securing loans for siding or anything else is contrary to the Duggar/Sammons 'debt free' claim.

One more piece of Duggar hypocrisy IMO.

Kit said...

they only talked about Ireland, so at least Jim Bob won't embarrass himself with language barriers.

Hahaha...wait until he's faced with a good Irish brogue. He won't have a clue what they're saying...

Poor Irish...no wonder other countries don't like the US. We keep sending them people like the Gosselins and Duggars and Roloffs...

Hey! Maybe they can do a joint show with the Irish travellers from My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, where they compare their "traditional" views of a woman's place in the home and a man's role as the breadwinner. I might even watch that, especially the Duggar boys getting an eyeful of the Gypsy girls' typical outfits and dance moves!

mom in texas said...

Thanks for the podcast link. I made the attempt to listen to it all. Between the hostess, the two co hostess, Michelle, and Anna it was hard to listen. Most of the interview was more of the same. Michelle discussing what it is like to "raise" so many children, to "cook" for such a large family. Lots of "encouragement" thrown around and the use of "self control". Michelle talked in length about the decision to listen to God when it comes to the size of the family, which was in response to a question.

For some reason listening to Anna respond to the questions was sad for me. This is a young woman who has 2 children including a brand new baby at home. She seemed so robotic when she answered. Everything always came back to being "a wife and a mother". Questions like: "Anna what hobbies do you have?" Response:" I used to play tennis but now I am mom..." Though this is not new news, I just find it sad to see how a woman's purpose becomes nothing more than to reproduce and keep house. I understand this is the choice one makes but it is sad. Anna seems like she has been trained up in the Duggar way.

mom in texas said...

I also forgot to add that Anna responded to question asking about the crowded birthing room. She stated that actually only her birthing team (not sure who that is) and one camera man was present. She stated that this has been the same camera man used since Jackson's birth. Anna sounded kind of unsure of how to answer. She added in that "Josh handles all of that stuff" and of course tagged on the end about loving babies and motherhood, etc.

Also Michelle stated in response to a question that she and girls wear polos and skirts to bed. I was a bit surprised to hear this. I know we don't see this on the show but it seems that they could find modest and more comfortable sleepwear.

ennvee said...

Hey! Maybe they can do a joint show with the Irish travellers from My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, where they compare their "traditional" views of a woman's place in the home and a man's role as the breadwinner. I might even watch that, especially the Duggar boys getting an eyeful of the Gypsy girls' typical outfits and dance moves!

==================================

I pitched this crossover on TWOP where I know the head producer reads. When you think about it, aside from the extreme differences in wardrobes, the Duggars and Irish Travellers (try understanding THEM, Jim Bob!) have a lot in common:

Religious values that include strict gender roles, virginal brides who marry very young, and kids who are woefully uneducated. The Travellers make the Duggars' School of the Dining Room Table education look like Harvard.

But what I want most is for all the girls to take a trip with a Traveller bride and her wedding party to Thelma's place for a dress fitting. It would make the Klienfeld episode look like a page out of Victorian Bride magazine.

Next, let's have some Patriarch talk between Jim Bob and Paddy the trailer park manager. Especially in his wife-beater to show off those tats. That would be GOLD!

Michelle mentioned that the hassle of getting passports, so it sounds like all of the kids now have one. They're either doing the British Islesw. I think the Duggars are Scottish...another brogue Jim Bob would need a translator to hear his native tongue. :D

Another possibility I've heard bantered around is Isreal, for obvious reasons. Not sure how their love of all things Hog would go over there.

To the poster who asked about money: Jim Bob and Michelle got real lucky in real estate; no way they could raise 19 kids and have what they have if they were starting now. They bought in the early 90's when land was dirt cheap and got rich when land skyrocketed through the 90's, until the recession hit. They appear to have quite a few vacancies, given what we've seen of the boys cleaning out/repairing rental properties this past year or so. Also remember that TLC finished off their house, both outside and inside. In terms of furniture/appliances, the only thing they bought was their kitchen. Furniture, piano, decor (aside from family pics, and mementos, of course) all supplied by the TLC designer (noted on the last episode in which they showed the boys' room that the model planes are gone). Hope this helps.

gracieally said...

In the new Duggar book they address the incident where that girl Amanda (Mandy) stole Jinger's diary and tried to sell it on ebay. I was on some other Duggar site with Mandy when that happened and was able to see Jinger's diary posted on ebay before the Duggar's had it pulled off. I think I was the one who emailed the Duggars about the diary but I'm not quite sure because that was an active few days trying to convince Mandy to return it. Anyway, I'm glad the Duggars mentioned that weird episode in their life and are now more careful about who they invite into their house.

roddma said...

"So if I added more children I think I would absolutely be at the poverty line. So would they have stopped having children if they weren't financially capable?"
They had a dozen kids living in 900 sq ft house when the show started so I guess money is no object.

I didn't see anything about liens on the Duggar property but revocable living trust. Also a lien can be placed on your property when you sign someone's bail bond but I doubt that's the case.

msrylee said...

It seems to me that wearing polos and skirts to bed would be most uncomfortable. What is the reason for this attire at nighttime? Just when I think I have figured out some of the Duggars' behaviours and actions, I realize I don't understand so much about them.

gracieally said...

They wear nightgowns to bed. At least they did in the early specials and in some photos I saw taken a few years ago.

Religilicious said...

"Anyway, I'm glad the Duggars mentioned that weird episode in their life and are now more careful about who they invite into their house."

*********************************
This occurrence might inspire most parents to become more cognizant of the problems visited upon their children when their lives are put on public display via 'reality' shows, but I'm doubting Jim Bob and Michelle will make the logic leap. Besides, since neither parent has held a real job in years, my guess is they want badly to hang onto their TLC income, no matter the price paid by their kids.

ennvee said...

I didn't see anything about liens on the Duggar property but revocable living trust.

===================================

If your trust is funded, as it should be, the property is held by the trust, hence that designation. Truat me, I had to deal with distribution of a trust (thankfully with no liens against the property). It's a giant PITA. I'm curious who they have as their trustee. Probably Josh; I have a hard time believing they would allow a non-family member, even a trusted accountant or lawyer, handle it.

Religilicious said...

"It seems to me that wearing polos and skirts to bed would be most uncomfortable."

*********************************

WHUT??? Polos and skirts for bedtime??

For those of us raised in large families that included siblings of both genders, this seems the usual Duggar ridiculousness.

Normal people do not typically become sexually aroused by their siblings wearing normal pj's or nightgowns.

What's WRONG with these people? Seriously.

mom in texas said...

msrylee, Michelle really didn't give a reason as to why she and the girls wear the polos and skirts to bed other than they are "comfortable" which we both agree seems the opposite, however, there has to be some belief or reasoning behind this. The polo/skirt combo isn't a far cry from what they wear in the day so maybe this is a easy, get up and go transition? Not really sure. I found both the question and the answer to be weird.

michelle said...

I think that we will be introduced to granduggar number three by July 2012 or possibly earlier.

hart&sole said...

The Duggar women all sleep in skirts and polos??? What's up with that? They don't want to be caught in pajamas in case of emergency? It saves time dressing in the morning? I don't get it! One wonders why the Duggars don't do something different with the episodes, like stay home for a change. People started watching because they were interested in a lifestyle with so many children and conservatives beliefs. If we want to watch travel, we can use the remote and watch The Travel Channel. We all know it takes a 'thousand' pairs of undies and a 'million' polo shirts to see the Duggars through a trip. They could put a kid through college for what it is going to cost TLC for excess baggage. Make the show an hour, stick to a realistic time line, and get back to basics!

msrylee said...

I find that the Duggar females wearing polos and skirts to bed is more than weird. If there is a valid reason for it, I would be interested in hearing it. It is my opinion that one can't make sense out of nonsense, and perhaps this is one example.

MandySue said...

Jim Bob and Michelle are the trustees. There is probably a clause in the trust that states what happens to it if they die.

MandySue said...

They could put a kid through college for what it is going to cost TLC for excess baggage.
-----------------------

Would that be Michelle's baggage from her previous boyfriend?

(I couldn't resist)

hart&sole said...

Apparently Jim Bob carries Michelle's baggage from her youth for free. Every now and then he cracks open a suitcase, but it never seems to get lighter, does it?

Religilicious said...

Didn't Anna wear a long skirt while in her birthing pool?

If so, that, too, seems very uncomfortable. Being in labor is uncomfortable all by itself. To endure it ON CAMERA in a heavy, WET skirt makes no sense IMO.

I find little (if any) evidence that the Duggars are the brightest bulbs in the box.

Religilicious said...

"Apparently Jim Bob carries Michelle's baggage from her youth for free. Every now and then he cracks open a suitcase, but it never seems to get lighter, does it?"
**********************************

Well stated!!!

Also, Jim Bob never seems to tire of reminding Michelle and anyone who will listen about Michelle's 'baggage'.

I'm thinking the 'baggage' in question is that Michelle might've had teen feelings for another boy or two back in her youth, and Jim Bob simply cannot deal with her EVER having had ANY feelings for ANY male except him.

Sad for a grown man to remain THIS insecure.

hart&sole said...

We all realize that cheerleaders are popular gals, plus Michelle roller skated like a champion, in addition to being a very pretty girl with a good figure. And Jim Bob? He was/and is worshipful of her besides having religion on his side. No wonder the insecurity! I'm sure Michelle had her pick of dates back in the day, unlike what I would guess about Jim Bob. I don't for a minute believe that Jim Bob wears the pants in that family, but Michelle is excellent at acting like he does.

msrylee said...

I also agree that it is sad for a grown man to feel so insecure as to keep raising the issue of Michelle's 'baggage'. She may have had feelings for another man (or men), but she married JimBob and has been faithful to him for many years. IMO, he needs to get over this 'baggage' and just let it go.

MrsGenaZep said...

Can someone tell me what the name of the cartoon that the Duggar kids watch is?? They did a voice over in one episode. I feel like it's "Life in a Pond" or something close to that. I've been trying to find this info and can't come up with anything. TIA

Mandy said...

I believe it's "Life At The Pond" but it's just goes by "The Pond" normally.

http://lifeatthepond.com/radio.shtml

Alberta Rose said...

I don't think any less of Michelle because she has baggage from prior relationship nor do I think less of Jim Bob for carrying her baggage. It's an inspiration for other couples when the woman brings baggage into the relationship. Sometimes I take comfort in the fact that Jim Bob has continue to love Michelle for over 25 years despite her bruised heart.

msrylee said...

I have never thought less of Michelle either concerning the 'baggage' she carried into the relationship. Am I encouraged that JimBob has continued to love her in spite of her bruised heart, not sure. I'm not following this reasoning. I am pretty sure that Michelle has had to deal with some 'baggage' that he may have carried into the marriage as well. Perhaps he just hasn't mentioned it. This 'baggage' may be different than her's. JMO.

Religilicious said...

If the Duggars believe the title of their own book, that is, that "love multiplies", why does this not apply to relationships that occurred pre-marriage?

The concept that marital 'perfection' is achieved only when each partner has never had ANY feelings for anyone of the other gender is so simplistic and incorrect.

If love multiplies, where is the problem in taking the growth and the lessons learned from previous relationships and entering the marriage a wiser, stronger, more loving partner?

Duggar logic may be Duggar but does not qualify as logic. These parents and their life view are far too simplistic for adulthood IMO.

MandySue said...

One of the best pieces of advice I have ever got concerning marriage was leave the past in the past.

Ever time baggage is mentioned it bruises her heart a little more. He should let her heart heal not keep bruising it. He should love her unconditionally, not in spite of her bruised heart and baggage.

Is he such a joy to live that Michelle doesn't have stuff to bring up about him? Imagine that, her bringing u his faults on tv for all the world to see.

camden said...

The fact that Jim Bob talks about it 25 years later is disturbing to me! He's a grow man. She was 17 when they got married. Get over it! I'm sure Michelle has!

michelle said...

I wonder what "baggage" Michelle could have had. What is the standard that Jimbob is holding her to? Would kissing before marriage be the "baggage" since that seems to be a big deal to them. I wonder how perfect, pure, or angelic someone would have to be for Duggar standards.

msrylee said...

I agree that in any relationship, the past should remain in the past. It has happened, and needs to be truly in the past. There is emotional pain caused each time 'baggage' is mentioned. Each time I hear JimBob mention Michelle's 'baggage' I don't feel encouraged, rather I feel discouraged and angry due to his control issues. JMO.

ennvee said...

Jim Bob and Michelle are the trustees. There is probably a clause in the trust that states what happens to it if they die.

=================================

Duh....I meant "executor(s)" of the estate once they've both passed on.

As for Michelle's lost "pieces," they would be of absolutely no consequence if they were raising their children in a more mainstream Christian denomination. The legalism of Gothardism is so restrictive it borders on psychological abuse.

Reading up on courtship over the weekend, a young woman who suffered a broken "courtship," then went on later in life to date, stated emphatically that since courtship's conclusion is supposed to be marriage, breaking this covenant is far worse than getting dumped by a boy/girlfriend, ie. more pieces of the heart are ironically given away in a courtship (engaged to being engaged) than in a dating relationship, even if it does have the expectation of a marriage somewhere down the line.

Changing subject entirely, Anna's brother has written some interesting pieces on the Gothard lifestyle and does a good job explaining, in an unbiased manner, why teens and young adults in ATI are the way they are. The Duggars are no mentioned by name, but you can easily picture a Duggar as he typifies ATI teens and young adults. The standard is virtually impossible to live up to, which makes me even sadder for the Duggar children, teens and young adults, especially Josh and Anna.

http://iblpdetox.com/articles/2-the-disconnect/

hart&sole said...

Luckily for Michelle, Jim Bob brings his own faults on TV for the world to see.

Sharla said...

To be clear, the above blog is by Anna's brother-in-law not her actual brother. Thanks for the help for those who responded.

Religilicious said...

Here's an episode I'd like to see, "DUGGARS GROW UP".

The parents take on full responsibility for all their own children instead of delegating it to their oldest daughters.

The non-adult children are sent to public school to learn a broader view of life and the world and also how to socialize with the larger world's inhabitants. They learn that most even non-conservatives are ethical and trustworthy.

The oldest daughters get real jobs in the real world, an apt., and betin their pursuit of training/job skills/college.

The oldest male Duggars also move out and on to real job training/college.

They stop pretending that in a household of so many, no one ever gets cranky or wishes for parental self restraint in the marital bedroom.

PortaCribs are traded in for REAL beds and Jim Bob frees up some of his moth-eaten bucks to give the kids bedrooms that may be shared, but not to the extent of their present 'drop in center' standard.

Michelle joins a non-religious book club. And gym/fitness center. Trades in at least a few of her frump clothes for current and flattering attire appropriate to her age.

Jim Bob takes an English course (or three), also joins a non religious book club, and, finally, gets himself a REAL job to support all his progeny.

TLC cameras are permanently turned off.

Amen, oh Lord.

Religilicious said...

"Luckily for Michelle, Jim Bob brings his own faults on TV for the world to see."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Yes! And proves to us all by his oft-mentioned 'baggage' of his wife that it is HE who brings 'baggage' along lo, these many years.

Wouldn't it be nice if he actually respected his wife enough NOT to consider her teen life 'baggage' AND, if that's too tall an order for The Patriarch, then at least have the decency to refrain from sharing his negative thoughts (labelled 'Michelle's baggage') about his wife on tv?

Modern day miracle required?

michelle said...

I just listened to some of the radio show that Michelle and Anna were on. If the Duggars really do go to Ireland, I wonder how Jimbob and Michelle will handle all of the pubs, Catholics, and accents (which I find to be very cute on Irish men). Maybe Jimbob will lecture on the evils of drinking but at the same time say that he is not judging the pub-goers

msrylee said...

Amen Religilicious!! Great posts. I believe it is so disrespectful for Jim Bob to keep mentioning Michelle's 'baggage'. It is difficult to encourage one's partner while reminding her/him of past 'sins'.

Both my partner and I dated others, but we married each other, and made a commitment before God to love, honour and cherish each other. IMHO, JimBob is failing to live up to his marital vows each and every time he puts his wife down.

Is the issue of 'baggage' getting closer to the dead horse pile yet?

Religilicious said...

"Maybe Jimbob will lecture on the evils of drinking but at the same time say that he is not judging the pub-goers"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Excellent insight into Duggar Think. They always CLAIM to be nonjudgmental, though their entire life, including cloistering themselves away from the rest of the world (Sinner World) belies this Duggar rhetoric.

Maybe Michelle will saintily lead Ireland in another one of her tearful anti-alcohol protests.

Title of the episode could be "Duggars Against Devil Water".

ennvee said...

My apologies for this mis-identification of the article by Anna's BIL. I had every intention of properly identifying him, but I guess those three letters mysteriously went into the internet ether. My bad.

I was NOT purposely trying to deceive or mislead anyone. It would be pretty dumb to even try and pass that off as I mistakenly identified it, given that once on the site, it's clear the poster is not named Keller.

Again, my apologies for any confusion.

michelle said...

I will definitely be watching if the Duggars venture to Ireland. It will be interesting (like the trip Jimbob and Mrs. Jimbob took to San Fransisco). The looks on the kids faces will be a sight to see especially if there is dancing around. In this case it will probably be step dancing

Religilicious said...

"The looks on the kids faces will be a sight to see especially if there is dancing around. In this case it will probably be step dancing"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since dancing is considered a threat to morality and, therefore, verboten in Casa Duggar, let's hope the celtic dancers provide no "Nike!" moments for the Duggars.

Cyn said...

They would see forms of dancing every time they go to Silver Dollar City in MO, and Dollywood in TN. They do clogging, and other forms of "ole timey" dancing. (I can't think of the proper name for it, but I grew up watching peeps clog, do jigs, step dance, square dancing and other types of mountain dancing, at Silver Dollar City and Dolly continued it when she took over and renamed it Dollywood).

We have seen the Duggars politely watch people doing traditional dances (they may not like foreign, foods or smells as we have seen) and they actually seemed to enjoy watching it. (some small town they were in had kids in costumes dancing)

They have watched dancing at the Bates house, more clogging, or jig dancing... but it's the same concept.

Now whether or not the Duggars have issues with the accents, or even words used differently I'd agree they are going to mess those up. But other than strange food and odors they at least make the effort to go with the flow with the understanding that there are lines they will not cross.

Frankly incense gives ME migraines so unlike the Duggars that sat there and endured that nasty smell I would have gotten up and left the restaurant and taken all the kids with me (and have). Then again I wouldn't have gone in the restaurant to begin with knowing I would probably spit and gag on the food itself, not to mention the odors before the incense. LOL the Duggars were at least open minded enough to give it a try.

hart&sole said...

How about a season where the Duggars stay home, Josh and John David take care of their businesses, Anna gets a chance to stay at home with her two little ones, Michelle gets reacquainted with JoHanna, Jennifer and Jordan, along with the younger boys, Jim Bob plants, weeds and harvests a garden, Joseph, Josiah, Jedadiah and Jeremiah wash, blanch and freeze the produce, the 5 older girls vacation at the beach in modest, but mainstream, bathing suits, the show is 60 minutes longs and sticks to the time-line. Oops, nearly forgot some actual secular home schooling. What a cock-eyed optimist I can be!!

Religilicious said...

"How about a season where the Duggars stay home, Josh and John David take care of their businesses, Anna gets a chance to stay at home with her two little ones, Michelle gets reacquainted with JoHanna, Jennifer and Jordan, along with the younger boys, Jim Bob plants, weeds and harvests a garden, Joseph, Josiah, Jedadiah and Jeremiah wash, blanch and freeze the produce, the 5 older girls vacation at the beach in modest, but mainstream, bathing suits, the show is 60 minutes longs and sticks to the time-line. Oops, nearly forgot some actual secular home schooling. What a cock-eyed optimist I can be!!"

**********************************

Now THERE's an episode worthy of watching.

But also let's make The Patriarch get himself a REAL job to support all the kids he has brought into this world, instead of playing The Big Cheese, mugging for the camera, beginning every family communication with 'Hey, Guys....".

msrylee said...

I really like the season where the Duggars stay at home!! We can always dream.

sandi said...

I'd like to see the older girls and Michelle all cut their hair short into a stylish do and find out how much easier life is without all that on their head to take care of.And I'd like to see the Duggars grow a real garden and fruit trees,and do canning for the pantry,with Michelle,not the older girls,doing most of the actual canning.(actually I'd like to see Michelle be a hands-on parent for a change).I'd also like to see her be a real stay at home mom and not be gone on trips all the time,other than for filming.

gracieally said...

Just read a new article on the Duggars that say Josie is now walking. Wahoooooooooooo!

hart&sole said...

According to the Bates web site, Kelly said, "Josie is toddling all over the place." This was a comment about the Duggar's recent visit after the Atlanta book signing.

Just my opinion, but I don't think that being needed at home is preventing Jana and Jill from courting. No doubt Michelle could persuade Jessa, Jinger and Joy to step into the vacancy the two older girls left. Jana and Jill probably enjoy the travel, and comeraderie of their large clan. Their household chores are the norm to them. Why would they want to trade that, to live elsewhere, away from their family, become wives, mothers and homemakers?

bananahannah said...

sandi said...

I'd like to see the older girls and Michelle all cut their hair short into a stylish do and find out how much easier life is without all that on their head to take care of.And I'd like to see the Duggars grow a real garden and fruit trees,and do canning for the pantry,with Michelle,not the older girls,doing most of the actual canning.(actually I'd like to see Michelle be a hands-on parent for a change).I'd also like to see her be a real stay at home mom and not be gone on trips all the time,other than for filming.

-----------------------------------

The trouble with all that is; if they do it, people will just say that they're doing it for the cameras.
That's the trouble with being on a reality show like this, you can never make people happy.

hart&sole said...

Michelle and Jim Bob probably accept speaking engagements to make money while the the 'getting is good' so that she doesn't have to garden, can fruit, sew and do housework. Not saying I agree with their lifestyle, but it's working for them presently.

Surely their 3 bedroom house was larger than 900 square feet! Perhaps the one before that was the 900 square feet house. Didn't I read somewhere that they moved when Jinger was a newborn? On other sites I have read that the old Bates house was 1,000 square feet. Kelly repeatedly says it was 1,700 square feet.

Kit said...

The trouble with all that is; if they do it, people will just say that they're doing it for the cameras.

No, the trouble is that it will be BORING. OF course, the REAL trouble is they've done everything but throw the Duggars into a ring with bulls, and they're STILL boring! The shelf life is running out on this package...

msrylee said...

While it may be true that the problem of being on a reality show is that you can never make people happy, it is true that the Duggars are being paid very well by TLC. The paycheques and income derived from the show probably take away some of the sting of criticism. JMO.

hart&sole said...

If the Duggars followed our suggestions, they would be mainstream and would never have been on TLC. What would we blog about then? I say we leave them to their goofiness and just enjoy watching, or not. If each Duggar child had 'only' 10 children, that would be 190 grandchildren. And yes, I do want to be able to see them celebrate Christmas and go to book signings en masse. Jim Bob is going to buy a used train and save the difference?

Jennifer said...

This comment is about the Duggar ratings and people thinking tlc will drop the show if the ratings drop below a certain point.

Well I don't think that will happen, unless the ratings just bottom all the way out at nobody watching. WHy say this? Because TLC is bring back LITTLE PEOPLE BIG WORLD!,

Yah who would have thought it!

My two cents on the Duggars series ever being dropped is. This. It will happen when they (Duggars) are as a series not bringing TLC money in. Which is what makes or breaks shows. Money!... How little it costs to make the show and how much they TLC can make off it.
The Duggars will continue to do the show as they believe if they reach one person, and help them in anyway, whether it be becoming a Christian or just becoming a better person. Then they will continue to do the show.

hart&sole said...

Yes, TLC is bringing back the Rolloffs for 4 specials beginning in October, so I agree that this is likely this is what will ultimately happens with the Duggar family. Courtships, weddings, babies, will still invoke our curiosity. It will mine, anyway.

Hannah said...

Josh also sells singing fish according to the new book.

ennvee said...

New Duggar video on the bus (my connection was slow so I couldn't really get the gist of WHY):

www.livingwaters.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=2771&Itemid=314&lang=en

Ray Comfort (google him...he's a far- right evangelist) is the interviewer. A couple points of interest.

1. Jason fell off the stage and sustained probably the most serious injuries ever sustained by a Duggar...and has to recover on that bus!

2. Josie is a doll...glad to see the pigtails were ditched for a change.

3. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cutout at the restauarant! How on earth did they explain that to the middle boys that it would attract?

Most importantly, Anna Hackel is again accompanying the group and check out John David in the interview with Jinger, Jill and the Annas. He's sitting to Jinger's right and can't take his eyes off Anna H. Something is DEFINITELY going on there...they could even be officially courting; the Duggars never announced when Josh started courting, beginning with the engagement.

looks like they went to the premiere of "Courageous" given the passes some of the boys are wearing) and according to Josh's FB (wall is public, you can check it out yourselves), they also went to an aquarium where Josh petted a baby beluga whale.

Speaking of FB's, Amy has purged hers in favor of a "fan page" (please), and Josh's wall is full of places he's eaten. Dude really needs to put down the burgers and eat a salad once a month or so.

rcadra2 said...

Thanks for posting this, ennvee. I loved seeing the footage. I have to say, they really are a nice family and I don't know of any (mine included) that could survive weeks traveling together.

But oh my goodness - poor Jason. He looked kind of wigged out when the camera panned across him at first. Broken jaw, teeth, that kid must be uncomfortable. And stuffed on a bus with two dozen others? I feel bad for him.

The other odd thing was seeing Anna and Josh there. Is their baby on board too? I think she just had him 5 weeks ago. Is it safe to take a newborn on the road so soon, and with so many others in close proximity? I wonder if she wants to get away from all the noise and just recuperate.

Brooke said...

The video was like a version of MTV's Cribs "Duggar Style", down to showing us what's in the refrigerator and their beds. All that was missing was a "This is where the magic happens" comment. :-)

Angelusa Requiem said...

In the video clip from :17 to :21 the man is saying, "[the duggar family] 19... and counting" and then the camera zooms in on Michelle at that point. Just wondering if it's possible Michelle may be pregnant again. I'm almost certain that since nothing has been announced, no one outside the family would know. And who is the blonde woman that's friends with the older girls? Does anyone have a background on her?

Delta88 said...

I think I would go positively cuckoo if I had to be on that bus with so much noise and that many people for more than five minutes. I could barely watch the video, with three kids in each "bunk" and that giant crowd all squished in the back. I guess I just like a little more quiet and privacy than the Duggars do.

That Hackel girl is definitely involved in some way with the Duggar family---courting or whatnot. She's in a lot of photos lately too. I'm curious though---wouldn't her parents want the intended suitor to spend a lot of time with HER family, rather than her with the boy's family? I am not nearly as modest or old fashioned as the Duggars, but I wouldn't want my daughter traveling all over with the guy---I'd rather he be at our house so we could check him out too!

Dull episode last night. I fell asleep since it was so boring.

ennvee said...

Some recent Duggar pics. Anna H. is ever-present.

https://picasaweb.google.com/duggarfamily/July2011Pictures

Check out Josh at the Varsity. Between that pic - he is SO bloated, someone needs to educate him about sodium intake - and the pics of food on his FB, I'm getting a bit worried about him.

I also read earlier (3rd hand) from Priscilla Keller that Jana and Jill left for Peru today. It appears Priscilla is one of the chaperones - still working for Gothard.

ennvee said...

Apologies...I was looking for a blog of the Peru trip and found Priscilla's Peru pictures. It looks very highly controlled/contained.

http://picasaweb.google.com/114650483829109259650/PeruMissionTrip

I guess this is an extended trip and the Duggar girls are only going for a portion of it since they were taped on their bus this past weekend (it was posted on Monday, and that site seems to update daily, except for possibly Sundays)

imaamy said...

I think Grandma looks great! If I had as much candy/baking mix in my house as they do in theirs, to scale of course, I'd be 500 lbs. Wow that was a lot.

Hannah said...

One Major thing I read in the book. When Josie was just born Jordyn got sick and Josh and Anna took her to the walk-in and they filled her meds. Later, Michelle called and Josh didn`t know she was allergic to axemencolince(spelling) and he had to go and get the new drugs just in time.

Does Michelle not have an list posted for them to take with them or to have handy?

mom in texas said...

Great video and pics. The book tour on the bus actually looks fun. At first I didn't think Josh and Anna's babies were there since I didn't see them on the video. But after viewing the pictures I did see Anna with Michael in the carrier. I am also interested in who the young Hackel woman is too. She has traveled with the Duggars for awhile now. Next week there is an episode featuring the older Duggar girls giving a seminar on dating or rather courtship. Maybe then we will get some insight into whose doing what as far as relationships go.

Also Josie does appear to be walking. She is so cute and it's good to her being able to go along with the rest of the bunch on the trips now.

msrylee said...

There should be a health history, drug and other allergies, etc. readily available to anyone responsible for the minor blessings. As Mr. and Mrs. Duggar are absent sometimes and occasionally out of the country, it is imperative for the caregivers as well as medical providers to know this info. A drug allergy is nothing to fool around with. I know this from personal experience. IMO, it is neglectful for this info not to be readily available.

What is the procedure in Arkansas regarding medical treatment for a minor, when the parents are unavailable?

Hannah said...

Yes, they should have a binder or somthing with writing and pictures. I mean what if Jordyn dropped a piece of chesse and Josie got too it. Or someone who doesnt understand she cant have it goes and gives it to her. It should be the parents job first, if not then all the older kids(not just the girls).

I would like to see Duggars Focus on Safty, Showing them to use geaar when cutting trees etc, wearing helments, not getting close to an oven etc...

sandi said...

Anna H. appears to just be friends with the Duggar girls,imo.(unless anyone has any info pertaining otherwise).Besides that,she looks like she's too young to be courting yet,although I don't know the age limits on that,if there are any.JMO.

ennvee said...

I'm sure Anna H. is of age; I know the Duggars use their own minor children as unpaid labor, but the party line is that Anna H. came on this trip to "help out with the little ones." And as such, she has to be of legal age. I'm sure she was paid in food, but that was the premise and violating it, especially if something happened to, say, Justin while in her care, there would have been legal hell to pay. Heck, when I was 21, I looked 12 and I got carded until I was in my mid-40's, so it's entirely possible this girl is 20-21.

However, she's been seen at the home and went on the last trip to Atlanta (where Jason broke his jaw). She's been everywhere with the Duggars since last spring; this is an established way to begin a courtship in their world, since the boy and girl cannot be unchaperoned and have to get to know each other's families as part of the process.

All the pieces are in place; if they're not courting now, it's just a matter of time. Or they could be courting, and like Josh, keeping it on the downlow in case it doesn't work out; once they're engaged, there's no backing out.

Willow #1 said...

Just to add another thought (conjecture) about John Duggar and Anna Hackel (or whomever) -- I was curious all along if the house they were cleaning up a few weeks ago might actually be for someone specific (i.e., John David?). As the next male in line, I thought that seemed logical, whether he had any plans yet or not. I just thought it seemed like such an obvious clue. It will be interesting to see if females get houses from the Duggars when their time comes, or just the males? I am assuming just the males, but don't know yet. I guess any female Duggars would depend on their new spouses to provide that.

Oh, and by the way, I think John David and Anna H. would make a real cute couple.

msrylee said...

I think that Anna H. has had great opportunities to get to know the Duggars. Travelling on the Duggar bus with all the blessings and adults should have given her every chance to learn about them. Not my cup of tea, but may be the best way for 'future' Duggars to familiarize themselves with this family. And, this courtship in the making still is speculation at this point. Who knows what is really going on in this family?