Tuesday, October 18, 38 Kids and Counting!, 9:00 PM

It's a full house when the Duggars visit their friends, the Bates! Watch as the two large families combine their 38 kids and counting for some fellowship and fun. And the Bates' oldest son, Zach makes a very special announcement...

30 minutes

They think that over half the viewers haven't known the announcement for months? 

78 comments:

tulip said...

Another episode with the Bates?...okay, I actually like seeing the Bates once in a while. Anyone who's a follower should already know Zack's "big news", so did TLC make them save the news everybody really wants to know for this episode? Have they actually set a date for a wedding, and will TLC be there?

If so, I hope the Duggars don't butt in & "suggest" Zack & the Bates have it filmed (then again, how convenient to feature it in an episode if the Duggars just happen to be guests) At this point, they've made us think the worst by looking like they're really trying to "create moments" at any given opportunity... Trip around the world with a group of 20+, including 6 kids under 10 plus Mackynzie, newborn Michael and preemie Josie...yeah, that sounds like a good idea (NOT!)...Ratings anyone?

Seriously? said...

Personally, I'm hoping Zach's big announcement is that he's cutting his parents off from his subsidies. Gil and Kelly should be ASHAMED to be financially relying on their son rather than encouraging him to go off and build his OWN life.

Elverna Bradshaw said...

Actually it's Lawson who we know for a fact is bankrolling the family...Zach may be also, but we don't know for sure.

I want to keep strict attention to some of the older Duggar girls' faces at this announcement to see if there are any looks of unrequited love and sorrow over what might have been going on.

mom in texas said...

Elverna Bradshaw said:
I want to keep strict attention to some of the older Duggar girls' faces at this announcement to see if there are any looks of unrequited love and sorrow over what might have been going on.
___________________________________We all know what Zach's announcement is but I too was wondering how that will play out with the older Duggar girls, in particular Jana since it was long speculated that she and Zach were possible match for a courtship. But I can bet money that no "real" reaction will be shown. I am sure the girls will all have the typical, positive response, void of any real emotions.

Dar said...

Can someone tell me just exactly how Lawson is bankrolling the Bates family. Is he the only one gainfully employed? Thank you

michelle said...

The Duggar Girls emotions during the announcement will be something to see. I really wonder what kind of feelings lie underneath their polite exteriors such as resentment for every time there parents announced a new blessing on the way.

sandi said...

It would appear to have been too soon for it to have been Zach courting Jana,IMO.
Lawson has his own mowing business and he loans the family money when they need it,for everything from groceries to college.He seems to have a willing spirit and enjoys doing it.

Elverna Bradshaw said...

Lawson may have a willing spirit to financially help out his (father's) family, but he's getting to an age where he should be saving up for his own future family which is probably not too far down the road, seeing how early they marry in Fundyville.

(I won't even get into how shameful it is to not be able to provide for your own "blessings". And to keep pushing out new ones.)

hart&sole said...

Both Zach and Erin paid back their loans from Lawson in full. Erin gives piano lessons to 30 children. Zack is a county commissioner, Michaela sews for her own family, and others, plus she babysits. The older boys help their dad with his tree business and Alyssa helps with that, too whis is her own choice. I see nothing wrong with an adult child helping his parents out. If Lawson has a giving heart, how is that a bad thing? As for the Duggar girls pining over Zach. I doubt it. As my mother would have said, "There are plenty more fish in the sea!"

imaamy said...

The Bates family is just one of many the Duggars know with eligible sons/daughters to match with their adult kids. I don't think it will be a huge deal that a Bates son is engaged to someone else. I think the Duggar girls have plenty of fish in the sea to choose from (and that would garner parental approval:))

ennvee said...

Lawson has his own mowing business and he loans the family money when they need it,for everything from groceries to college.He seems to have a willing spirit and enjoys doing it.

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That's the Bateses' shiny, happy spin on things, at any rate. Why can't they admit that Gil doesn't earn enough money to support his family. Sorry, as a parent, if you can't afford the ones you have, you shouldn't be having MORE for crying out loud. It's only going to get worse when they lose Zach's income when he gets married and has to support his own wife and eventual passel o' kids.

j said...

"for everything from groceries to college"

College? Is there a Bates kid in college?

sandi said...

>We all know what Zach's announcement is but I too was wondering how that will play out with the older Duggar girls, in particular Jana since it was long speculated that she and Zach were possible match for a courtship.

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an annoucement at the Duggar's makes me think for sure that it wasn't Zach courting Jana.It would be rude to throw it in Jana's face like that,had it been Zach,and I really can't see the Bates allowing that.

ennvee said...

The Duggars certainly knew of the "announcement" well before they visited the Bates family last July. Kelly Bates had been posting on the website about reciprocal visits with the Reiths before the courtship was formally announced. The Reiths also have a blog that confirms their whereabouts and concerts, so even if the Duggars didn't directly hear it from either family, there are plenty of adult daughters who likely monitor the blogs of family friends.

Ironically, the happy couple actually met in front of TLC cameras in the early stages of the remodel of the Bateses' home. The Reiths were friends of the Duggars. So if any Duggar girl did have designs on Zach Bates, they have their parents to blame for inviting the Reiths to the Bateses'.

I remember the Reith's music; it had lots of backbeat; many of the little kids were bopping around until stopped by adults or other buddies. It's sad that they can't even do something that is innate in every human (and is recognized by Gothard as "jumping for Jesus"), even when the music is devotional in nature.

Frankly, I'm glad the Duggar girls escaped the Bates clan (although Jessa or Jinger are good age-matches for Lawson, so they're not out of the woods yet); they seem even more "out there" than the Duggars, who are still more out there than they let on if all one sees is the brand Jim Bob and Sean Overbeeke have developed for the family on TLC. The Bateses are closer to what the Duggars looked like back in 2004 when they had their first special, down to those hideous matching clown dresses.

At least Kelly and the older 4 girls are spared from wearing them, although it wasn't that long ago that the Bateses first appeared at the Duggars' with all the girls (2 or 3 kids ago, with ALL the girls, even Michaella and Erin, in the clown clothes.

i like pie said...

Even if the any of the girls expressed disappointment at Zach's announcement, it would likely be edited out of any footage we would see.

Elverna Bradshaw said...

I don't agree there are "plenty of fish in the sea" when it comes to potential husbands for the Duggar girls. They have to marry within the Quiverfull sect (which isn't huge to begin with), and they are considered Quiverfull royalty so this will make JimBob picky about who he says yes to regarding who can court his girls.

I'll bet Jana would have welcomed a courting by Zack, but he probably thought of her more as a sister than potential mate.

sandi said...

>That's the Bateses' shiny, happy spin on things, at any rate. Why can't they admit that Gil doesn't earn enough money to support his family. Sorry, as a parent, if you can't afford the ones you have, you shouldn't be having MORE for crying out loud. It's only going to get worse when they lose Zach's income when he gets married and has to support his own wife and eventual passel o' kids.
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I agree that these tlc qv families put the spin on things so many times,more often than not,usually;but I was taking that from what Lawson said in his own words in the segment they filmed,for,I think it was GMA.I'll see if I can find it.He does appear to have a joyful heart when it comes to helping out his family;whether that's acceptable or not is of course,debatable.

The Roaming Commoner said...

I don't know Jana or any of the older girls minds' but it seems from the shows that marriage and the art of baby birthing are highly prized in their religion. If Jana and her sisters end up never marrying and becoming old maids, I think it would crush them.

imaamy said...

Elverna, when they go to ATI or other conferences/appearances, there are hundreds of other large families with similar beliefs. Josh and Anna found each other at one of those events and I don't think the families knew each other before that. Just by sheer number of kids in these families, there are plenty of fish. I think as long as the boy has some hope of earning a living, Jim Bob could be persuaded.

ennvee said...

;but I was taking that from what Lawson said in his own words in the segment they filmed,for,I think it was GMA.

====================================

It was Nightline and I saw the footage. In a family structure where your own father says you have to contribute until you move away, does anyone really expect the kid to say anything to disrupt the party line? Especially since he has no choice. There are a lot of holes in the story the Bates family expects people to believe and frankly, they made the choice to put it out there, so any criticism they get is entirely their fault.

IIRC, Zach Bates said the elected position he has is unpaid (small county, commission only meets once or twice a month). If Zach's other job is working for his dad, who can't feed his family some months, what is Zach's real income source? I hope someone can answer this, since he's going to have to support a wife in the next year or so; he is also going to some online college, getting a degree in History. I hope the show addresses the ins and outs of how the Bateses are handling this courtship, which is VERY legalistic, even moreso than Josh and Anna.

sandi said...

>I don't know Jana or any of the older girls minds' but it seems from the shows that marriage and the art of baby birthing are highly prized in their religion. If Jana and her sisters end up never marrying and becoming old maids, I think it would crush them.

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they are all such pretty girls,and I bet they get a LOT of offers (Michelle even admitted this) ,seeing as they are so highly visible from the show.I would venture to say that JIm Bob would eventually approve of an acceptable offer for each of the girls,before that happened.He will,of course, have a large choice of suitors from which to choose from,it seems.

sandi said...

>It was Nightline and I saw the footage. In a family structure where your own father says you have to contribute until you move away, does anyone really expect the kid to say anything to disrupt the party line? Especially since he has no choice. There are a lot of holes in the story the Bates family expects people to believe and frankly, they made the choice to put it out there, so any criticism they get is entirely their fault.

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I haven't seen anything that makes it appear Gil was forcing him to contribute.Lawson said Gil was always good for it and he didn't mind fronting the money for him.By his own demeanor, it seems he is the type of person who enjoys being helpful and needed.I imagine it makes him feel very useful.
I don't see any holes in this one,can you please explain?

sandi said...

>IIRC, Zach Bates said the elected position he has is unpaid (small county, commission only meets once or twice a month). If Zach's other job is working for his dad, who can't feed his family some months, what is Zach's real income source? I hope someone can answer this, since he's going to have to support a wife in the next year or so; he is also going to some online college, getting a degree in History. I hope the show addresses the ins and outs of how the Bateses are handling this courtship, which is VERY legalistic, even moreso than Josh and Anna.

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I don't know if he gets paid for this,but from the Bates' website:

Zach is continuing to pursue his degree in History and Criminal Justice. He completed his last semester of EMT training with a 4.0 and was recently elected as the youngest county commissioner in our state. He’s thankful for the local support he received and for the opportunity to help serve his county. He’s actively involved in working with the sheriff’s department and the volunteer fire department.

roddma said...

"They have to marry within the Quiverfull sect (which isn't huge to begin with), and they are considered Quiverfull royalty so this will make JimBob picky about who he says yes to regarding who can court his girls."
Both the Bates and Duggars deny being Quiverful. Kelly claimed to not know what it is. If you really think about it, some suitors may be turned off because of the show. Not everyone the marry will want to be in front of the camera.

I didn't see the kids bopping in the Redo episodes. Anyway, i think the Reiths put more emotion into their music.

ennvee said...

I forgot the unpaid positions at the VFD and Sheriff's Dept (acting as a first-responder at crime scenes?).

At any rate, his positions don't pay and his degree, such as it is, won't be worth the value of the cartridge that prints out the diploma.

Erin's college may be brick and mortar, but she's only taking one or two classes a semester and the place is also not accredited. Heck, the Duggars' College Plus! is even a step above it because some major universities will take their CLEP tests (including the University of Arkansas), but only for maybe 30 lower-division units.

Bottom line: Zach needs to get a real, paying job (or five). If Zach is paid as a county commissioner, it is nominal; I have a friend who served as the attorney for a town that had just incorporated and he was paid by the meeting and the city council at that point only met twice a month. Difference is, this guy had a full-time, 6 figure job in addition to his role as town attorney. Zach does not.

pumpkin said...

"I hope the show addresses the ins and outs of how the Bateses are handling this courtship, which is VERY legalistic, even moreso than Josh and Anna."

Ennvee, could you please elaborate on this? I'm not familiar with the legalistic handling of the Bates-Reith courtship and I would like to know more.

The whole courtship thing is just fascinating to me, as it is so vastly different from my own experience and the experiences of anyone I know personally.

I hope Zach and Sarah are happy together and I wish them the best. I can't imagine marrying someone you've never really been alone with, but if it works for them and they're happy, then I'm okay with it.

Elverna Bradshaw said...

(I'm sorry...this doesn't pertain to the Bates family but it does pertain to courting which is what Zack's announcement is.)

If the Duggar girls get so many offers of marriage and if at least 2 of them are at usual marriage age for Quiverfull girls, why hasn't JimBob approved of any of these offers? Don't the girls deserve to be able to start their own families now instead of taking care of their parents' kids?

Sarah said...

Who knows whether or not there have been any interested suitors in Jana or Jill, or whether the only guys to express interest were all "creeps". What we do know is that Michelle cannot run the household without Jill, and she needs Jana to act as Josie's mother.

So, it probably will be years, if ever, before those two are released. I suspect those two will be living at home as Stay at Home Daughters for most of the next decade.

No idea at all about Jessa or Jinger. They aren't as useful around the house (although they do a lot of packing for the infinite number of trips this family takes--and some cooking). I could see them getting married off sooner than the older two girls, or maybe Jim Bob will just keep them all home for the next ten or more years, until there is no one for them to marry.

The Roaming Commoner said...

I feel sorry for Jana. She seems to be very down and depressed in most episodes. I wonder if she secretly is seeing others court around her and wishes she were doing the same.

Sharla said...

Friendly reminder time that anonymous comments are likely to be rejected. There have been quite a few this morning.

Isis-sama said...

In the "Duggars, Dating and Dan" episode Jana briefly made a comment indicating that she had been courting at one point but that it had not worked out for her. Perhaps that is why she seems so depressed recently. I have heard around that a failed courtship can be very hard on those involved because of all the expectations placed on it (you believe that your "courting partner" is going to be your partner for life and "God's choice" for you, and when it turns out to not be the case it can be very traumatic).

We have no idea why the courtship did not work out and I want to stress that if Jana wishes to have the details remain private I respect that, but given the level of parental involvement in the courting model I hope that it did not end because Jim Bob would not give his permission for the two to become engaged. In some ways I think this is unlikely because I doubt that the father of a courting daughter would give his daughter permission to court someone that he would not approve of being her husband in the first place, barring any revelations revealed when he had got to know the young man better of course, but I hope that Jim Bob did not tell the two young people that their engagement would have to wait because Jana was needed around the house, or because he didn't want the family to be broken up anymore while the TV show was still going, and that caused the young man to become upset with Jim Bob and break off the courtship because of it. I realize that there are very many other reasons why this courtship might not have worked out, but because of the amount of control the senior Duggars have over their children I worry that this might have been the case with Jana.

Seriously? said...

"In the "Duggars, Dating and Dan" episode Jana briefly made a comment indicating that she had been courting at one point but that it had not worked out for her"

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Who in his right mind would want to marry into Duggardom??? Jim Bob as your father-in-law, believing he gets to call all the shots for everyone at all times because he is the almighty reigning Patriarch?

Bound to Duggar silly rules. Required to make command appearances on camera and on vacations to keep the Duggar brand going (and $ flowing into the Patriarch's pockets).

Blech.

i like pie said...

"In the "Duggars, Dating and Dan" episode Jana briefly made a comment indicating that she had been courting at one point but that it had not worked out for her"

---

Really? I don't recall this. Do you have the exact quote? I can't imagine marrying into this family, I think it would be a tremendous loss of privacy.

I had a boyfriend when I was in college who thought my mother was too nosy and gossipy... imagine marrying into the Duggar family and having all of us on the blog'o'sphere discussing your every move!

Melissa said...

I doubt that any of the older girls will be upset about Zach's announcement. From recent episodes, it seems that the older girls are more focused on education/career and learning more Spanish so they can do more missions work. I think that is great! They are still so young- they definitely don't need to be worried about becoming old maids; although,I agree with an earlier commenter that it could possibly "crush" them if they never did get married. However, like I said, I don't think that will be a problem.
I hadn't noticed that Jana was depressed. She is very quiet and reserved but seems happy.
I have noticed that Joy Anna seems depressed, though; although, she is just starting to go through the teenage years so she may be struggling with not enough privacy, etc.

ennvee said...

"In the "Duggars, Dating and Dan" episode Jana briefly made a comment indicating that she had been courting at one point but that it had not worked out for her"

===================================

If this comment had been made, it would be all over the internet. She has NEVER admitted to courting; there was an interview with the four girls with a leading question and some of the girls shot Jana a LOOK, but that was the end of it. It was interpreted to be something that probably was not the case; maybe they were looking at her to be the spokesperson for the reply (I forgot who or how the question was answered).

Re the courtship question: in ATI circles, the courtship process is very rule-driven (or legalistic in church lingo). First, the boy expresses interest in a girl to his father. Boy's father contacts girl's father to see if the families are on the "same page" (yes, that quote was used when Josh explained it all when he courted and was eventually engaged to Anna by the same process).

If they are okay with it. Some of the girls' families have lengthy questionnaires for the prospective husband must answer to ascertain possible character flaws. At any rate, once the fathers have vetted everything, the father tells the daughter of the boy's interest. In some circles, she has the last right of refusal right there (this seems to be the case with the Duggar daughters, but not all fathers give their daughters that choice). If the daughter approves, then there is limited contact allowed between the two, all supervised and monitored (speaker phones and in the case of Zach Bates, emails and texts that the parents must read).

If they find they are comfortable with each other, the boy asks the father if he can "court" the daughter. Courting is essentially "engaged to being engaged." Most ATI/Vision Forum folks do not allow physical touching during courting; this is a time when they are supposed to see if they can grow in God together. I guess if they find doctrinal differences, they can end the courtship before engagement. This is where things get sticky, because the couple is not supposed to get emotionally attached during this phase of things, but it looks like Zach will be "courting" for at least another year. How can you NOT become emotionally attached? And if it ends, haven't you given away a piece of your heart? This was never addressed in Josh Duggar's case with his confirmed prior courtship before Anna.

Gothard recommends the engagement phase be short. Some allow the hand holding we saw with Josh and Anna, others don't touch at all until the first kiss. I've heard of more than one father placing both the engagement and wedding rings on his daughter's hand to avoid touching. Kelly says that at this point, they have decided to abstain from touching; we'll see how that goes when they're rarin' to go a year from now. But the point is, that is up to each family.

So there is some flexibility in the Gothard courting process, but it is still ridden with do's and don'ts and the patriarchal chain of command is in full force. In many cases, it's nothing more than an arranged marriage. But since the wives must "keep sweet," it's impossible to tell who is really happy and who is putting on a front. I wish these two the best and hope they are truly happy together.

Hope this helps. :)

pumpkin said...

Regarding the no-touching rule prior to engagement - Do they allow unmarried men and women to shake hands when introduced to one another?

In my husband's culture, when being introduced to someone new, the woman kisses both men and women on both cheeks (usually an air-kiss). This was a culture shock for me when I visited his country for the first time.

I can't imagine how uncomfortable this would make the Duggar and/or Bates families.

Remember when Josh and Anna were on the Today Show and Meredith Viera did the air-kiss with Josh and he was visibly startled?

Isis-sama said...

During the part of the relevant episode where they covered the "dating seminar" (in case the name is unclear, it's actually about the practice of courting in place of dating) someone from the audience asks Jana if there is anything going on in the romance department of her life (not in those exact words) and you can just make out her saying very softly in response, "there was, but . . . "

I suppose it's possible this means something else, but I think that's doubtful.

Stephanie said...

Sharla, I am sorry but I can't resist.

Zach Bates is overly emotional because he has all this built up sexually tension (extremely normal for teenagers and young men especially).

Poor guy, never been kissed much less anything else, its kind of sad.

He's a good looking guy too. How do they know if they are in love or just want to be in a grownup sexual relationship. JMO

Elverna Bradshaw said...

How can they afford smart phones when they need help buying groceries? I don't have a smart phone and I have a lot more money than the Bateses do.

That was just plain strange with Zack crying like that, but I guess it's to be expected since he's never experienced anything to do with male/ female relations before. I'm sorry but I'm not in favor of doctrines (like no dating, etc.) that stunt your adult children in such a telling way.

ennvee said...

Geez, haven't we seen that episode eleventy billion times?

They showed all those pics from the Bateses' blog, but I'm kind of shocked that TLC cameras were there (although I do recall Kelly saying that it was filmed...I just assumed it was family film). That was professionally filmed, no "Duggar cam" there.

zzzzzzzz.....

ennvee said...

Oh, forgot to mention, Zach's explanation of the courtship process was hilarious. There was a huge "yadda, yadda, yadda" moment in the middle when he talked about how the "process" was put into the works. What he left out was the part about how the Daddys got together and green-lighted everything.

ennvee said...

Watching the west coast feed, I caught yet another Duggar safety negligence (shocker, I know). Who on earth allows 5 and 6 year old children to ride a horse, no matter how gentle, in BARE FEET?

I remember my days at summer camp back in the Dark Ages when regulations were far more lax than today and even then, when I wanted to ride a horse, I was sent back to my cabin to put on sneakers when I showed up at the stables in flip-flops.

Even more egregious, this happened days after Jason was injured (they traveled north to DC after Atlanta and visited the Bates family either on the way there or back, same trip at any rate). What on earth is wrong with these people? And I include the Bateses here; the Duggars have little experience with horses (I think we've seen two horseback rides: the dude ranch way back when and the father/daughter retreat when the horses scared Jim Bob). Didn't anyone tell them to wear real shoes then? I sure remember an episode 30 years later but they can't remember what they were told a few years ago?

The Bateses are not exempt; they own the horses (how do they afford the upkeep if Gil can't feed his family some months?) and should definitely been paying more attention when Hannie and Jackson mounted the horse in bare feet. Shame on them all.

DuggarGoth said...

Besides the safety issue with the horses (bare feet/flip-flops etc...) I noticed that not many of them had saftey goggles on during the tree-cutting scenes. I think a few of the older guys had on what looked like sun-glasses (maybe they were goggles, I don't know) anyway, no big surprise there..... kinda sad though.

londonbridges said...

Agreed about the horseback riding episode with little Duggar blessings riding with bare feet. Most of us would call that lax safety behaviour, but the Duggars know that God will protect them from all harm (including their own stupidity). Therefore, they don't need to take the precautions the rest of us probably would. JMHO.

I would think Jason's fall and subsequent injuries should have taught JimBob and Michelle a lesson, but apparently not.

mom in texas said...

Finally got a chance to watch the episode. I personally feel kids are a blessing but seeing so many kids running wild makes you wonder how they keep an eye on all of them.Oh yeah....Anyhow I cringed when Josie was hit by the door but that is common with small children.But poor Jordyn fell off the horse and a crew member had to help.Michelle seemed okay with this.I guess she can't do it all.
Poor Zach was so nervous.I felt sorry for him.He seems like a sweet young man but really ill equipped for a relationship.I guess the courtship has its benefits but considering they are not intended to be long and Zach himself said he had never sat that close to a girl, you would have to wonder how does that translate once they're married. I wonder how the couples find time to truly get to know one another after marriage sinve there is such an emphasis put on reproducing early and often.I can imagine couples who court have just as many communication issues as couples who dont.

Delta88 said...

I noticed that Josie fell and smacked her head, and one of the camera guys had to get her. Where was Michelle? Obviously not paying attention again.

Jim Bob would ride on the log cutter thing. Didn't look like there was much safety consciousness around the tree cutting worksite, but that isn't surprising.

Multiple kids bouncing on an unprotected trampoline could also be dangerous (there's a reason why most insurance companies won't provide homeowners to anyone who has one---more claims come in from those things than almost anything else).

WHy are we surprised that the kids are horseback riding barefoot? After all, they went traipsing around central America, with scorpions and other wildlife, in flipflops. Or climbing mountains or doing hikes. Or letting infants ride on boats without life jackets or taking toddlers on jet skis. We could go on and on.

Those people are just certifiable. I don't think the Bates family is one bit better than the Duggars either in the safety department.

The Roaming Commoner said...

Honestly, I don't know much about Zach, but this was way better than Josh's proposal to Anna. Zach seemed much more genuine (to me) than Josh ever has with anything. I wonder too why the Bates family continues to have animals, participate in Gothard's organization, and migrate to Big Sandy if they are not financially stable.

Does anyone predict how much longer this show will go on? I predict the viewing numbers will sink like the Titanic not too long from now.

UGH!!!! said...

Bear feet? How about HELMETS!!!!

I’m not “into” the Bates any more than the Duggars, but at least they’ve matched their kids’ clowncar approach with self-reliance and practical skill. The Duggars are just an oversized version of your classic sub-division suburban clan. Big whoop.

Michelle said...

Ahh..Duggars, Duggars, Duggars. Is it me, or is each episode getting more and more controversial? It almost seems like Michelle especially, is TRYING to cause a stir.

I was aghast yet again, when they literally showcased the camera crew helping BREAK the little one's falls. Literally. And the way Michelle said, "they miss s good shot....", sounded so WRONG in SO many ways. Wow. Not only does that camera crew watch those kids (when no adults are to found), and help with yard work - but now they are keeping the brood safe as well. Have Mercy!! (pun intended).

All of the Duggar's and Bates, singing "Amazing Grace" was absolute craziness. Don't they realize that we have caught on to their FAKE Bible-thumping? We (viewers with IQ's over 80), realize that they do what they do for ratings! Nothing more, nothing less. I highly doubt the Duggars even attend church regularly anymore.

They seem 110% detached from their humble beginnings....Anyone agree?

The Bates are just as bad, trying to ride on the coattails of the Duggars. Who are they - having 15, 16, 17 children in that TINY home? That's ridiculous, and not a very smart thing to do. Not fair to the children whatsoever. What would've become of them if the Duggars hadn't popped in and built them a new, bigger home? (BTW, Jim Bob assuming it would take "a weekend" to build a 3-story addition to the Bates home is laughable!).

Mrs. Duggar and Mrs. Bates are BOTH clearly addicted to pregnancy and the attention that comes with it. The TV show, books and tours...all enables their addiction - just as a person who brings alcohol to an alcoholic. Yes, it is a REAL LIFE mental health issue. They need help.

Michelle said...

I also have to add how funny (yet sad) it was to hear Jinger refer to the FIDDLE-PLAYING as a "jam session". Poor thing. :(

Fiddles, banjos...?? Jam session that is NOT.

Listening to Zack Bates speak, you can hear his clear lack of education. It is very sad that both of these families are placing fame above their "blessings" education.

Shame on all 4 parents involved!!

And the gig is up for the Bates, when they say, "they are leaving it up to God" (as to how many blessings they will have). Mrs. Bates WAS ON FERTILITY DRUGS. She said so HERSELF (then defended it, by saying that b/c she had a miscarriage, she was doing it to keep a future fetus healthy. Make sense? Nope. I think not).

Fertility drugs are NOT "leaving it up to God". These people make me so sick.

Anonymous said...

On the issue of safety, I noticed several things last night. First of all those young children were jumping on TWO trampolines without any protective netting! And, later in the show one of them did a flip and almost flipped right off of it! Don't these people know the dangers of this equipment? Does no one watch the kids when they are on it? It's funny that they will chaperone young adults on a "date" or when courting, but can't be bothered to watch real potential danger at other times...unbelievable. It's just a sham really.

Also, I did hear Jim Bob mention to Gil that they were "trying" for another baby, just "that nothing is working yet"...oh my God. Enough.

Sharla said...

1.084 million viewers.

RiderWriter said...

I have never visited before, but found this blog via someone making a comment on one of my horse blogs regarding the Bates' horses. Apparently they are (quote) "horrifically underweight," with visible hips, ribs and spines showing. I did not see the episode myself, but your discussion here of the Bates finances - notably, the lack thereof - causes me to think that the viewer was absolutely correct and NO, the Bates family can NOT afford their animals because they are not feeding them. Horses are a luxury. They should not be suffering because that family feels they need 17 kids or however many they are up to (I happen to think that many kids are a luxury, too, not to mention flat-out irresponsible. I have two because I have the sense to realize we couldn't afford more, although I was a great baby factory and COULD have had a dozen if I'd been inclined).

Anyway, reading that the Duggar kids were riding barefoot without helmets, in between episodes of trampoline-jumping with no net, surprises me not at all. If they are too stupid to realize they're putting their kids up on starving animals, they're too stupid to take simple, basic safety precautions. And they even had a child fall off? No words.

Finally, I feel driven to comment on the whole courtship issue. How incredibly laughable. No, of course I don't think young people should be having random sex with everyone who comes down the pike, but I do think they should at least be permitted to pick who they want to marry and for heaven's sake, be allowed to at least hold hands and kiss! Especially when the stakes are so high - the people in this sect or clan or religion or whatever the heck it is are certainly NOT allowed to EVER divorce. I just don't get it.

tulip said...

Wow...I hadn't realized that, but it's kind of funny-the overly protective watchdog during "courtship", but when it comes to "real" safety, who's looking out?

I completely agree with both the barefoot horseback riding and trampoline problems! Major faux pas!! And yet again with the flip-flops! Who doesn't love a good pair of flip-flops? But the female Duggars seem to have made them a footwear staple...for all occassions! Yes, they've even been filmed hiking in them and on a construction site doing renovation projects. Not surprised they would find them fitting for church...they wore them for several professional photos, even ones that ended up on the front covers of their books!

I wish Zach & Sarah the best-they seem really sweet. Unlike Josh, who I thought never really appeared to show falling head over heels for true love, but rather like getting married was just the next step...or the opportunity to "legally" act on the temptations of being a 20-something guy.

i like pie said...

Regarding Zach's emotional response to Sarah's "yes", I think that is normal. My husband cried when I accepted his marriage proposal... and we'd been living together for three years! I don't think this has anything to do with Zach's in experience with women.

Regarding the safety (or lack thereof) in this episode - I was frankly shocked to see them riding horses in flipflops and bare feet. I rode for years and always had on solid boots or shoes. Even with heavy rubber boots, I lost a toenail when I got stepped on once.

I couldn't believe how WILD all the little ones were, running around the living room and screaming like banshees.

Remember when "14 children and pregnant again" first aired? Remember how orderly and well behaved everyone was? Orderliness has gone the way of the dodo in these housesholds.

I really can't fathom why they feel the need to have a chaperone around ADULTS who happen to not be married yet, but can't be bothered to properly supervise children to ensure nobody gets hurt.

The Roaming Commoner said...

I would loved to have gotten inside Michelle's head during this episode and find out what she really thinks about Kelly. She claims that they are best friends but you never know. Compared to Zack, Josh looks like someone who got engaged for the status and not for the real love. Michelle seems to get the royal treatment during pregnancy and even when she isn't harboring a blessing. She seems to love this about herself unfortunately.

bananahannah said...

I think it's sad that Michelle and JimBob are more worried about supervising two adults then supervising their little ones safety around the horses.

Anonymous said...

Definitely. This is the biggest part of their "show" that I don't understand. They are way more concerned about supervising the older kids than watching the young ones doing dangerous things... Do they really think it is more dangerous to hold hands, kiss, hug or even meet "other" people? My goodness!

I even noticed that when the two families left, the girls only hugged the other girls and same with the boys...that is just wrong...really. What is wrong with a hug???

roddma said...

"Apparently they are (quote) "horrifically underweight," with visible hips, ribs and spines showing. I did not see the episode myself, but your discussion here of the Bates finances - notably, the lack thereof - causes me to think that the viewer was absolutely correct and NO, the Bates family can NOT afford their animals because they are not feeding them. Horses are a luxury."

The Bateses horses are rescues according on their website but why didn't they say so? I, too, wonder if they know how much money horses cost.

hart&sole said...

And....I would like to get inside Kelly's head and see what she really thinks about Michelle. Kelly is so absolutely nice, she probably likes her.

Why do you suppose Jim Bob finds it necessary to take credit for the Bates house every single time they visit? We know, Jim Bob, so just get over yourself and move on. As I remember it, Gil and Kelly were not the ones who asked for a laundry room or more living space. Jim Bob has to do everything in a grand scale. Yes, I am happy that the Bates do have a nice house with more space. I'm not especially religious, but isn't there something in the Bible about doing things and keeping quiet about the good deeds you have done?

Anonymous said...

Kelly Bates responded to a comment on her blog that the horses were rescued from bad situations and they were rehabilitating them. So that explains why they looked so frail.

SmokeyKitty said...

I don't understand how a family can have so many children on so little money AND refuse government help. Honestly, its pride pure and simple. If you have to hurt b/c of your pride then go ahead, but if your children hurt b/c of your pride then its not acceptable!
I know families with 8 to 12 children who have fallen on hard times and despite trying to be self sufficient they let go of their pride and accepted food stamps and WIC until they got back on their feet. Plus they weren't above accepting help from community members.
I can't believe that the Bates wouldn't at least get food stamps to feed their kids. They can't borrow from the older ones endlessly. Eventually the older ones will have their own families and the younger kids will still need food and shelter.
And I agree, they have a large property with animals and seem to go on a lot of mission trips. None of this can be cheap, yet they continue with these luxuries??? I'm confused.
And also, Erin Bates was offered a music scholarship and they rejected it (this was a few seasons ago). You'd think Kelly Bates would see what a struggle her life is and view her daughter's opportunity to get a B.A. for free as a gift from G-d. Perhaps a music degree isn't exactly profitable but I know many people who had a liberal arts degree and were able to use it to get in the door of many companies.... brains and hard work got them the rest of the way. AT least give the girl a fighting chance at being able to feed HER children someday!
I used to think the Duggars and Bates were sorta cute (if I didn't think about the fundamentalism of their beliefs too much) but they aren't so cute anymore.

RiderWriter said...

"The Bateses horses are rescues according on their website but why didn't they say so? I, too, wonder if they know how much money horses cost."

"Kelly Bates responded to a comment on her blog that the horses were rescued from bad situations and they were rehabilitating them. So that explains why they looked so frail."

LOL! NOPE, not buyin' it for a second. This is the CLASSIC response that people give when asked about skinny horses in their possession. CLASSIC. "Oh, it's a rescue." Just ask any bona-fide rescue facility, or Animal Control Officer - believe me, they've heard that one before. In most cases, the people then can not explain why the animal looked better BEFORE they got it... or why the animal has looked the same, i.e. rack of bones, for oh, say, eight months now, when it's quite possible to make a VISIBLE difference in a horse in literally several weeks if you re-feed correctly.

This just really makes me mad!! >:-/ I suppose there is a .05% chance that Kelly Bates is telling the truth, but if that is so, then I still want to know WHY WERE THE HORSES BEING RIDDEN. You do NOT ride a skin-and-bones horse for ANY reason! There is absolutely no excuse for that. Grrrrrr.... And way to go, TLC, for putting that out there so other stupid fools will think it's fine and dandy to mount up on 'ole Dobbin no matter what his condition.

I want to see documented proof that those horses look(ed) (not sure when this episode was filmed) better in one month. ONE. Then I *might* start to believe that the Bates family can afford to have horses.

Seriously? said...

"I really can't fathom why they feel the need to have a chaperone around ADULTS who happen to not be married yet, but can't be bothered to properly supervise children to ensure nobody gets hurt."

********************************

Apparently, to the Duggars, mere mortal wounds don't matter when compared to the MORAL wounds of that possible premarital kiss beween consenting and not-yet-married adults.

Just another example of Duggar logic/Duggar smarts. Or, more accurately: LACK THEREOF.

The Duggar brand is a joke.

hart&sole said...

(snipped) Personally I love the Bates family, but I can't get past Michelle's kindergarten teacher voice, Jim Bob's conceit and goofiness, or the kids running around like banshees. Gil Bates has some great equipment for his tree business, so business can't be too bad. All Lawson said was that he bought those particular groceries, but Gil will pay him back when he gets paid on Friday. Dear Lord, Lawson isn't supporting them. And yes, I do believe that the Bates family is rehabilitating those poor horses.

mom in texas said...

All Lawson said was that he bought those particular groceries, but Gil will pay him back when he gets paid on Friday. Dear Lord, Lawson isn't supporting them.
___________________________________

Gil in fact said more than that. He said Lawson gives them money from time to time and helps with his sibilings who are in college. Lawson is the finance whiz of the family. He may not be supporting them but he is however, helping his family financially. While there is nothing wrong with this, I think most of us have an issue with it because Lawson is not the patriarch of the Bates clan, Gil is and he should be providing the care for the family. Gil and Kelly made the decision to trust God and have 18+ children, not Lawson. He may not go broke helping his family out but I am sure he wants to save some money for himself and his future.

Also, I don't think Lawson would have had a choice in the matter anyhow. I doubt he could have said "no". I know the Bates/Duggars like to use the cover that the "children are a blessing and they volunteer to do etc.,etc." but I have a feeling that saying "no" doesn't go over too well in these families.

Softballfan said...

Except for the fact it was Lawson who offered the money for one of the kids to take college classes. The kid had decided to not go until Lawson offered to lend her money, which has ALREADY been paid back in full. Also it makes more sense to get paid back if you are doing the grocery shopping instead of having the parent give money, it maybe not being enough, and having to figure it out after the fact.

ennvee said...

Also, I don't think Lawson would have had a choice in the matter anyhow. I doubt he could have said "no".

=======================================

Precisely. Gil said either in the same interview or quoted elsewhere that as long as you live under his roof, you contribute to the welfare of the entire family, whether it be by way of chores, working with Gil (and FWIW, he's had the tree business for over 10 years, so he's had time to find some equipment), or, as is the case with Lawson, financially.

I saw a small prefab house in a shot behind the smaller trampoline at the end of the show. I am guessing that will be the lodging for Zach and Sarah. I'm basing this on the fact that the structure had numerous windows; a storage shed would look different.

Seriously? said...

"Gil will pay him back when he gets paid on Friday"

**********************************

Isn't that the sin of DEBT according to J. Sammons?

IMO it's selfish and irresponsible for parents to continue birthing babies when they are already so strapped for cash that they have to rely on their older children to support the parents' younger offspring.

Elverna Bradshaw said...

The point about Gil borrowing money (and paying it back on "Friday") is that being a business owner, he doesn't have a regular paycheck coming in, meaning "Friday" could be this Friday or six Fridays from now.

He is still depending on a child's income to feed his family.

sandi said...

I think Gil sees it as being ok, as long as they aren't being bankrolled by the public domain via welfare/food stamps,etc.And as far as that goes,I'm happy they aren't being a burden to taxpayers,as none of us have anything to do with how many kids these families chose to bring into the world.As long as they are being self-sufficient within their own realm,as a taxpayer there isn't really much I can say about it,other than I disagree with the lack of general boundaries being set within these types of families.But some of them do seem to find joy in it,and that was my comment regarding Lawson having a giving spirit.My own kids can barely loan each a dollar without doing so begrudgingly,so if you've ever experienced that,you can then appreciate seeing a joyful giver.

sandi said...

>Isn't that the sin of DEBT according to J. Sammons?

----------------------------------
I don't know,I wonder how he feels about families loaning each other money.I'm not familiar with the course,anyone know?

>IMO it's selfish and irresponsible for parents to continue birthing babies when they are already so strapped for cash that they have to rely on their older children to support the parents' younger offspring.


with Kelly being middle-age now,I kind of doubt she can have any more after this one,but you never know.Certainly it's not like she's still young.
Someone mentioned fertility drugs;I don't think Kelly is taking them because they only work if there are viable eggs,and her eggs are the same age she is now.IOW they would only work if she has the eggs to release in the first place (which doesn't seem to be a problem),but they can't produce more eggs in someone older who doesn't have any viable ones to release.they can't make her more any more fertile than she already is.
The progesterone she takes is not the same as Clomid or the other fertility drugs that cause eggs to be released;it just prepares the uterus to accept the ovum.

Sarah said...

The hypocrisy though, is that despite these families claiming to take no government assistance, and their followers believing that they are self-sufficient and "not a burden", they ARE a burden, because they have no health insurance and use the ER as a free clinic.

That drives up the costs ridiculously for the rest of us, who have to pay for the free care these free-loaders receive.

Seriously? said...

Actually, taking hormones CAN make a woman 'more fertile' simply by the fact that they can allow a woman's aging uterus to sustain a pregnancy which, w/o the hormonal supplementation, would most likely not happen due to having lower hormones than are usually required for a) implantation and/or b) normal gestation.

So, yes, the Duggar-types CLAIM they are anti 'unnatural' approaches to fertility, yet they are not above spending $ to purchase hormones in order to prolong their fertility chances.

Also agree with their claim of 'not being a burden' to others by not carrying good health insurance. This is another example of how they take 1/2 truths and spin them - once you think a little deeper than just the superficial 'logic', you realize they are not being entirely honest in these claims.

I believe this is one reason why Gothardites LIKE to keep their own uneducated - if you are uneducated and/or not that bright, you are unlikely to ask deeply probative questions about the 'logic' of their bent-&-twisted tenets.

Bottom line IMO is: these people exemplify hypocrisy with a capital H and deserve neither sympathy nor accolades, nor the tv spotlight.

Of Course.. said...

They edited out the horses for the repeat on Oct. 25th. Not at all surprised. They put in a scene about making/having sandwiches.

ennvee said...

They edited out the horses for the repeat on Oct. 25th. Not at all surprised. They put in a scene about making/having sandwiches.

=======================================

I didn't see the repeat's first airing but made sure to watch the west coast feed. Just saw them going on and on about sandwiches and recalled that all that was said during the original airing was that they had to feed 40 at every meal, more if there was company. Interestingly, they dropped that last line in favor of shots of balogna, ham, mustard, rolls, red cups and people eating all over the place as they "fellowshipped."

I think the horse shots came later in the episode; horse riding was just mentioned, but let's see how much of the horses they show. I read that they were reported; I wonder if they were forced to cut out the footage because of that? Still, it's funny how fast Sean & Co. can get on something when things go badly.

Elverna Bradshaw said...

I think Sean and company read this blog and others religiously (ha) and craft their shows around issues we bring up, and also edit episodes when there is something very controversial in them.

Last season I brought up on this blog that (I think) Jason was flashing gang signs (or it might have been..eeep.."the shocker") on one episode and it was edited out on the re-airing.

Jenny O said...

I just thought of a reason why Mr. and Mrs. Duggar probably don't want any of the older girls to get married soon (beyond the fact that they rely entirely on them to run the household and raise the children I mean).

More people coming into the family would mean the possibility that some of the Duggar parents' irresponsible behavior would be questioned. I certainly hope that not all Gothard followers are as cavalier about children's safety as Mr. and Mrs. Duggar. Prime example would be Anna. While I don't agree with her religious viewpoints, I can certainly see that she is a loving and involved parent.

In watching how Anna interacts with her two children, we can see the vast difference between her and Michelle. Anna is hands on; Michelle is hands off (to the point where she actually filmed her own son while he was seriously hurt and in pain!)

I also think JimBob's ego couldn't take dealing with a strong son-in-law who has his own mind and convictions. We see how JimBob loves to be the center of attention, and how insecure he is. A young man coming into the family, one that could supercede JimBob's authority? Looked at in this light, it's no wonder none of the girls are courting, and I'd say their marriage prospects are probably pretty dismal.