Michelle on "The Birds and the Bees"

Link to her discussion.

41 comments:

Seriously? said...

Oh, lord, where to start?

Think I'll leave it at the wonderment of more Duggar logic - love multiplies for each of dozens of children brought into the world, but on an adult to adult level, loving a member of the opposite sex is defined as 'giving away a part of your heart'. WHUUUT????

And girls needing their mom to pray for them so that they will not be flirtatious? That old 'women are all Eve, just waiting to tempt men into sin' thing - pathetic that some still hold onto this whole ridiculous concept of womanhood.

The Duggars are dumb.

There, I've said it.

Flower Child said...

I enjoyed dating, flirting, and I'm not ashamed that my husband wasn't my first lover nor was I his. These things shaped us into the people we are neither one of us is jealous of the other's past. I think the Duggars/Gothardites are robbing their children of life. And also setting them up for failure and a lifetime of self hatred if they don't keep to the pure plan (they'll be tainted used goods) My goodness following that ideology they would consider a rape victim impure. The Duggars need to quit obcessing about sex. Gee get a hobby, play a sport something!

sandi said...

Yes and I can't believe the older girls actually think that a girl coming onto a guy first turns him off.Men LOVE it when women make the first move;it takes the pressue off them to do so.
And as far as the rest goes,I agree that the experiences one has before marriage...dating,kissing..sex doesn't have to be a part of it.But the kissing another guy is just a part of being a teen,and that helped shape nmyself into the person I am today.When I kissed my husb. for the first time (when dating) I wasn't sweaty,nervous,etc. like poor Zach Bates was.I was calm,cool and confident,and that's part of what attracted me to him.

Patrice said...

I have no idea who Michelle thinks she is fooling but I would bet my nex paycheck that not one of her daughters EVER made that ridiculous statement or anything close to it! I need Momma to pray for me so I don't accidentally flirt with a boy?
Oh, please! Rein it in, Mullet. Even a Duggar girl wouldn't say something like that.

sandi said...

Better yet,I wonder why the example given was that of a female,and not one of the boys.Just more disrespect for women,IMO.

londonbridges said...

IMHO, Michelle only wishes one of her daughters made that comment. I don't believe it either. And, what about her male blessings? Do they ever come to them and ask prayer for not flirting with a young woman? I doubt that, too.

Methinks the Gothardites, including the Duggars and Bateses, are very focused on sex.

raincloudhope said...

This is the GothardSpeak that has caused so many abused and hurt children....you can read about them if you research the internet enough....(no longer quivering). I can understand some of the things she has said...but basically they are telling their daughters that the girl shouldn't sit a certain way, shouldn't walk a certain way, shouldn't dress a certain way, shouldn't look a certain way. What freedom is that? I am okay with dressing modestly (and not just in skirts)...but a young lady should not live in fear of 'defrauding' a male (any age) because she is who she is. It is a sad thing to throw in tiny bits of nonsense with the basically good in this article. I can't imagine one of Michelle's daughters making that statement either.

Nikki said...

Yep, that's the conversation every girl wants to have with her mom in the nearest Chili's.

I'm not opposed to insight from other moms, but the preachy, holier than thou crap turns me away from any bit of insight this breeder could offer. Birthing a small tribe and handing the youngest off to the oldest doesn't qualify a woman as a knowledgeable mother.

Nikki said...

Truthfully, the only parenting knowledge I've gained from this dog and pony show is to use birth control so that my daughters will never have to raise their future siblings. Thanks Duggars.

ALW said...

Puberty talks with mom and/or dad are all well and good, normal even, but what about the fact that the real birds and bees aren't even discussed until the kids get engaged? Even though it was clearly staged for the camera, Josh didn't have his father to son talk until his wedding day. I'm sure they know the mechanics of sex, but its frankly inappropriate that they understand no more or less than their pre-pubescent siblings. Remember the way you used to talk with the kids on the playground about those things? Imagine doing that at 18, 19, 20!?!

Seriously? said...

So, using Michelle Duggar's logic, what happens when a person is widowed? Is (s)he such damaged goods for having given away his/her whole heart to a former spouse that remarriage is out of the question?????

What about Zach Bates and others who've had a courtship (aka engagement) not work out? Did god send the wrong soulmate? Do Zach and Sarah now have less heart to offer their REAL soulmate whenver god supposedly sends him/her along?

You don't want to ponder these fundie/Gotharisms too deeply, lest your head explodes because they are absolutely nonsensical. Grimm's Fairtales make more sense than Gothard tripe.

Seriously? said...

"A deliberate deception for unfair or unlawful gain: - THAT is the definition of fraud.

Doesn't, then, "defrauding" imply that women, merely by dressing normally, are offering themselves sexually to men?

What incredible male arrogance to come up with such a theory.

What incredible female ignorance to buy into this concept.

God must've been distracted when creating the Gothardite tribe, as the entire lot of them seem anacephalic.

sandi said...

I don't beleive the kids ever tell Jim Bob nor Michelle everything they are thinking.They may wish they would,but they probably know by now what to keep to themselves.If they didn't,they know they'd be sitting in their rooms alone on some of the outtings,lest they dare have any feelings of the opposite sex at all when they go out.JMO.

beef said...

I agree with the comments about the daughters probably not actually asking their mom to "pray for them" so they don't flirt. Not because I don't think they would say that, because they probably would...the thing I find odd is the idea of them "going out". Where on Earth would they be going that there would be a temptation to flirt with boys? The grocery store? A mission trip? As we have seen, even a jaunt across town is a heavily chaperoned event for these young women. I highly doubt they are "going out" unsupervised with groups of peers.

Also, Michelle said "season of life" waaaay to many times for one essay.

Linny said...

There comes a point when you just can't stomach the crap she says. Really? Her daughters ask for prayers to not be flirty? No wonder none of her daughters are married or courting, they can't get past the friendship level without believing they have sinned! Seriously, that's just sad. Michelle can't possibly believe the things she is saying. I mean, her and jim bob KISSED before marriage, and according to them, they have the worlds greatest marriage. Apparently, dating worked just fine for them. But heaven forbid Jana speak to a male and smile at him.

Can you imagine being a young man in this system of courtship? Dating is scary and intimidating as it is, now add in an extremely heavy emphasis on marriage, no touching, monitoring of phone calls, chaperones, no flirting, no romantic feelings, evaluations by dad, ugh. No wonder only one duggar has gotten married so far. Who would want to go through that process? And look where it got Zach Bates. This system will fail, undoubtedly. It already is failing. Look at all the fundamentalist girls who have tons going for them, yet remain single year after year. They'll have to change their ways if they hope to achieve their vision of generational fundamentalism.

Seriously? said...

Michelle apparently forgot to add the other rote piece of 'wisdom' we heard The Patriarch deliver to his eldest, "People are like Legos".

Stunning in his stupidity, Jim Bob Duggar is.

To the Duggars, all of life can neatly be defined, summarized, and handled with Gothard/Duggar trite, rotely-repeated, superficial rhetoric.

Life is so much more complex than the Duggars seem able to comprehend.

It is not Life that is simple. It is Gothard-type fundamentalists like the Bates and Duggars. Life requires more than the double or single digit IQs exhibited by these reality show caricatures.

Cadence said...

I don't see how flirting is a bad thing. Michelle and Jim Bob are telling their daughters not to flirt because it turns the guy off. IMO, they should be able to flirt, otherwise, how will the man know that they're interested? Available? In order to find a husband, you first have to show interest, otherwise, they will be single forever.

mom in texas said...

Wow so many things here, I don't know what struck me most.

For starters Michelle said "A few times when my girls have been getting ready to go out they've said, "Mama, will you pray for me, because I know I'm going to be around some boys and I just want to keep my heart right. I want to have the right response and to not be flirtatious or not have any wrong motives but to really keep it on a friendship level." What? I really have a hard time believing the girls come to her and say this. It makes them sound like lusty harlots who can't control themselves around the opposite sex. There is such pressure put on the females in this clan to control men's urges as if a man can't be responsible for himself. I guess men just have no self control around us women folk so we are held accountable to make sure we don't do anything immodest to cause them to lust after us. Hogwash. Just because a woman goes out or is in the company of men doesn't men she is going to do anything to be flirtatious. A woman also doesn't have to do anything overtly sexual for a man to be interested. Remember countenance, Michelle? A man can be impressed with a woman's character and find her attractive. Also, just because the girls are in the presence of men doesn't men that the men are looking at them in any way other than a friend. Again, I sometimes feel like the Duggars are training the girls as if they are on constant display or for sale. Why is it always the responsibility of the females to make sure men do anything in this family? From getting dressed, to doing chores, to controlling their natural feelings, the girls/women are always held accountable. This makes me sad and angry.

Another thing I wonder is in family where modesty and controlling feelings are at the top of the list how do Jim Bob and Michelle explain to the children sex after marriage? I can imagine that growing up in a family where your feelings are constantly being suppressed, it would become confusing once you are married and then suddenly you are expected (as a woman) to be a baby factory. Growing up yes, many of us are taught about abstaining from sex before marriage but at least we are taught what it is and that we have control over our own selves in regards to whether or not we do it. The Duggars make it seem as if every twitch and feeling a young person gets is evil and should but prayed away yet mommies and daddies are expected to reproduce constantly. How is this explained? Are the girls being taught you have to do everything in your power to keep men away but once you are married and a submissive wife you give yourself totally over to God and the husband? And the boys know that once they get one of these submissive wives she is at his mercy? The Duggars are a ball of constant contradiction.

Wampascat said...

The more I hear of the Duggar's beliefs, the more I'm reminded of that creepy religious mom from the Stephen King Book, Carrie. These people are cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

sandi said...

Yes,that's exactly what they're taught.The father has authority over the girl until marriage,then her husband is her authority,under which he rules and,at his discretion,makes all the decisions,and the female is told she cannot say no to sex for any reason,lest it is defrauding your husb.So she is essentially a slave to him (IMO)in that respect.And God forbid any of them ever have a headache! I think the only break they get from it is the 40-80 days after birth of a baby,if they follow those standards.

Seriously? said...

One of the worst things I can imagine for my children would be if my son or daughter hooked up with a Duggar.

Sons, pick an emotionally strong, smart wife who thinks for herself. Respect not submissiveness, but, instead smarts and independence.

Daughters, pick a husband who loves you for your intelligence and independence. NEVER tolerate a man who wants to believe he is your god-given Patriarch.

Sons and daughters, RUN LIKE THE WIND AWAY from all who make such a huge hoopty-do about their religiosity as do the Duggars. It is this type who are most likely to do the most incredibly unkind things to thhose outside their own warped religious beliefs and then find a way to not only rationalize their behaviora, but actually feel absolutely righteousness for what they do.

Jim Bob/Michelle as in-laws: the stuff nightmares are made of.

Nancy said...

Ah the good ole days of hand sex!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tvkpdpmhdw&feature=player_embedded

Note that even then Josh's love for crap food was well-established, although getting laid was running a close second that day.

Stephanie said...

I just read this for the 2nd time. Doesn't the so called Jim Bob point of view with the boys sound ok? She always just takes it too far when talking about the girls point of view.

The teenagers should be accountable to their parents? Sounds like they want to lay guilt for flirting and then the kids fess up to every little desire a teen might have.

This guilt over sex (which is normal human behavior) is something I grew up with. My husband and I married because we were told it was wrong for us to go on trips or spend overnight weekends together and we were 21 and 24 year old adults. So I quit college for us to marry and I regret quiting college. This was because of sex & marriage beliefs.

We loved each other and could have had an adult relationship while I finished college then married. I don't want my daughter to get married just to have sex but I don't want her to be a skank around town either. How do you teach your daughter that? That's the Parentable I want to read.

How to keep daughter from marrying just to have an adult sexual relationship when she is an adult trying to finish school or begin a career? How do I teach my daughter about financially supporting herself? Michelle Duggar please tell us all how to do that. My daughter is almost 13

tulip said...

The Legos "joke" by Jim Bob when having his father-son talk on the wedding episode was actually kind of creepy, as was the end of the show when Josh & Anna were in the car listening to Ed Wheat talk about intimacy, and then cut to Josh & Anna at their hotel closing the door. And what's even worse is all the Jim Bob & Michelle PDA-even on the Today Show when announcing J20, Jim Bob joked, "I don't know how it happened!" while Josh responded with a huge belly laugh. The Duggars act so conservative with all the birds and the bees stuff, but yet continually have all these "intimate" undertones in the show. Yuck.

han said...

The males lack control. They don`t learn it by putting their heads down, or if a woman is dressed in long skirts and long tops. Later, the woman has to give to her husbands sexual needs during the marriage, no matter if wants to or not.


The boy need to learn to control it as well. If other man can they can.

Judy said...

I'm really getting sick of this season of life stuff....

Alberta Rose said...

Under the section about "Talking with boys" that's almost word for word what our beliefs are. Our church does things that helps foster this sort of attitude: So it's important that they get a perspective of viewing women not as an object for their pleasure but really realizing that in the future God's going to bring a special one for them that will be their soul mate, the person that they're going to spend the rest of their life with and love. And in the meantime, you treat all women with respect and kindness and don't lead women on. Don't show wrong, inappropriate actions to others who may not be your future spouse.

Honestly I don't see anything wrong with teaching boys that women are human beings, not sexual objects for their pleasure, regardless of your belief system.

Seriously? said...

"I'm really getting sick of this season of life stuff...."

Me, too, but then I grew tired of all things Duggar a very long time ago.

The House of Duggar is not made of bricks. It is not made of Lincoln Logs nor even Legos. No, the House of Duggar is made of worthless platitudes.

Seriously? said...

"Honestly I don't see anything wrong with teaching boys that women are human beings, not sexual objects for their pleasure, regardless of your belief system."

I don't think anyone has any objection to this part of teaching (although we hope kids will learn this very BASIC concept of respecting others, regardless of gender from the interactions they observe in their own family unit).

However, the 'teaching' loses me when it goes down the road of god sending a soulmate to be yours forever and then coupling that with not 'giving away your heart so that you can give it all to your soulmate'. This leaves no room for being widowed or (gasp!) divorced.

In the case of Zach Bates, did god have an off day and send the wrong soul mate? Using Gothard logic, what is to be made of picking your soulmate then being dumped by same? Have you given away a piece of your heart to that person, leaving less for your REAL soulmate whenever god decides to send him/her along?

This is the part of the 'teaching' that makes no sense IMO.

Canadian Fan said...

I seriously can't imagine having a conversation like that. Where exactly would they meet guys to flirt with? At the ATI conference where families are always together all the time? It's sad that the Duggars (and Bateses) don't trust their kids to make their own choices and even mistakes. Jinger & Jessa both seem a bit spunky, but Jana and Jill look like sweet, Christian young ladies that a godly man would be honoured to have as his bride. I think Joy-Anna will be the independent one who doesn't fit into the Suzy Homemaker mould and stick around for sister-mom duties. Being a wife & stay-at-home mom would be great, but it not for everyone and shouldn't be the only "choice" presented to a woman.

pumpkin said...

This sort of "birds and bees" talk is fine for 11 and 12 year olds.

It's the older teens and young adults who seem pathetically unable to form adult relationships with members of the opposite sex. It's perfectly fine to want to abstain from sex until marriage if that's what YOU want. I thought this was the path I wanted to follow, until I found myself 28 years old and I decided I didn't want to pursue that path any more.

It saddens me that these energetic young people are so emotionally stunted.

SmokeyKitty said...

I can't think of anything worse in a life partner than someone who can't contribute to the relationship, or make a decision.

I know a woman who, by her personality not religion, is completely without an opinion and completely submissive. I think her husband was getting tired of it for a while but now that they have a child you can tell he's getting fed up. He loves her and you know he won't ever cheat or leave her. But, there are times when he says "you're her mother, I'm sure you'll make the right choice". After working 12 hours a day he's usually too tired to come home and make more decisions (and he helps with cooking and child care so he's pretty "liberated").

Can you imagine having a submissive "helpmeet" at home who waits for you to come home every night and start making her decisions for her? You have to solve the problems that came up during the day? And on top of it's up to you to initiate sexual contact too (I assume). So you never know if your wife actually likes you. And you're likely to be working a physically taxing job during the day because you lack education.

This system bites for the women, but it bites for the guys as well.
On top of everything else women aren't allowed to show interest in a man so a man has to guess whether or not you want to be with him. And by the time he starts to court you its been decided between the parents that you're going to marry him. The courting is just a pointless ritual b/c the decisions have been made and set into stone.

So, the woman marries a man she might have zero interest in but is guilted into. And the man gets a woman who didn't play a part in choosing him and was basically playing the part she was raised to play.

I don't think arranged marriage is that bad, sometimes its a great system. But, I think in the past (like when my Great Grandma was matched up in the shtetls) you had veto power (at least in Jewish arranged marriage) and there was a Yenta helping things along, not just your parents. Your likes and dislikes were taken into account and there was a greater sense of community. Seems like the Gothard fundies just all live in seclusion spread around the country... No real sense of community.

I really hope that the J'kids and Bateses leave the nest and don't look back.

Beth Anne said...

Seriously said: "However, the 'teaching' loses me when it goes down the road of god sending a soulmate to be yours forever and then coupling that with not 'giving away your heart so that you can give it all to your soulmate'."

I agree 100%. It is like the Duggars view the heart as a piece of pie that literally gets cut up into pieces, and once you 'give away' a piece to someone, that part of your heart is gone. Yet, wasn't the title of one of their books "A Love that Multiplies?" There is NOT a finite amount of love contained in one person...love can develop and grow for many people, whether it be loving a spouse, a child, a friend, or a significant other.

Also, the courtship model aims to ensure that the young ones don't get 'emotionally attached' to each other....what kind of relationship is that? Isn't developing some sort of emotional attachment the whole purpose of spending time together? Only by being open, sharing feelings and dreams and goals, etc. can two people truly discover whether or not they are the right life partners for each other. I hate to say it, but I think in Duggar/Gothard speak, love=sex. They expect the young adults to go from 0 to 100, from no touching or even intimate conversations to being MARRIED, the most intimate relationship of all.

londonbridges said...

I couldn't agree more with the 'choices' the Duggar and Bates/Gothardites have regarding their futures. Definitely, being a wife and stay-at-home mom is a choice, but so is having a career regardless of marital status, and blessing status.

JimBob and Michelle made their choices, but can't or won't trust their blessings to do the same. I am hesitant to quote the Bible, but have the Duggars and Bateses ever read "train up a child in the way he/she should go and when they are older, they will not depart (from that way)? Don't the parents trust the way they have 'trained' their blessings? Where does trust fit into this picture? I really don't understand this. JMHO.

mom in texas said...

londonbridges said:
..Don't the parents trust the way they have 'trained' their blessings? Where does trust fit into this picture? I really don't understand this..
___________________________________

I totally agree. This has been one of my arguments about the Duggars since the beginning. If they have "trained" the children so well and "trust" the children why do they insist on chaperoning adults who are engaged or courting on dates, monitoring their phone calls, supervising basically all contact that they have outside of their family. This is unnecessary and unreal. If you are a parent who is confident in the job you have done, you have no reason to monitor every aspect of your child's life, 24/7. The Duggar children's exposure to the outside world is limited and only explained through the view of parents who have a warped sense of being. The majority of people who were not raised in such an oppressive environment do not grow up to be criminals or immoral people. The Duggars focus so much on purity and keeping the heart pure yet neglect basic lessons on safety. I don't get these folks.

i-like-pie said...

I know the whole concept of "stay at home daughters" is popular in the Gothard movement, but are the parents expected to be financially supporting their adult children indefinitely? It may not be an issue for Jim Bob and Michelle, who have their TLC income to support the family, but for other mega families who don't have unlimited funds, how does that work?

sandi said...

Not only that, but the Duggars and other families like them are defying what's called basic boundaries.If you go to couseling,this is one thing they teach..that others don't have a right to infringe on your basic rights,and how to stand up for yourself.Even Christian counseling(non-fundie) teaches this.So don't think for a minute that all Christians are like this...they aren't.
There is a good book called Boundaries that really gets to the matter of this basic principal.

roddma said...

"The more I hear of the Duggar's beliefs, the more I'm reminded of that creepy religious mom from the Stephen King Book, Carrie. These people are cuckoo for cocoa puffs."
But Carrie bucked up to her mom when she said the prom will lead her to 'temptation'.

"Honestly I don't see anything wrong with teaching boys that women are human beings, not sexual objects for their pleasure, regardless of your belief system."

I wonder how much of this is put into practice given Josh's Twitter and Instagram. And shouldn't it continue after marriage as well? The book by Ed Wheat Josh was given on the honeymoon basically says men are in charge. How is that respecting women?

londonbridges said...

I can only imagine a Gothardite couple on their wedding night. They haven't kissed much, if at all, until the wedding ceremony, have never seen female's knees, etc. Talk about setting a young couple up for a multitude of sexual problems.

I guess this couple would go from total abstinence, limited touching, except the hand sex of course, to prolific PDO re: JimBob and Michelle, and much time doing the horizontal mambo. JMHO.

I take a pass on Michelle's "Birds and Bees" class.

Alberta Rose said...

I know the whole concept of "stay at home daughters" is popular in the Gothard movement, but are the parents expected to be financially supporting their adult children indefinitely? It may not be an issue for Jim Bob and Michelle, who have their TLC income to support the family, but for other mega families who don't have unlimited funds, how does that work?

I don't know how it works for Gothard families but I do know how it works for a Catholic, a Muslim and a non-believing family. Basically those families the daughters contribute by doing a share of housework and taking care of younger children when they are not doing a paid job, and contributing some of their salary when they are doing a paid job.

Patrice said...

I don't know how it works for Gothard families but I do know how it works for a Catholic, a Muslim and a non-believing family.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The difference is that most young women of any other belief system have a choice. Gothardites are threatened with fire and brimstone if they try to have an independent thought or action. Reading any of those "No Longer Quivering" or similar articles all state the same.