Duggars Dance to the TLC Tune?

I know we are all fascinated, as a viewing public, by the events in these people's lives. We all love to see little people, giants, people born without faces, morbidly obese people, people with multiples face adversity and overcome obstacles. I think the original intention of these reality shows was to depict triumph of the human spirit. That was a good thing.

But these reality shows, with children in particular, have become like a circus. Their lives are being played out on national TV, with all the family drama (G family, little people). It just isn't right or healthy for children, including the Duggars, to grow up with TV cameras filming their daily lives. Being a reality TV star because your parents were so foolish as to sell off your childhood is really dangerous. In many ways it is far worse than other child stars (of movies, etc), because none of the little Duggars had a choice or even believe that they are "acting".

These reality shows have gone too far. They are exploiting families, and the families go along with it because they love the money. Jim Bob and Josh probably couldn't provide for their families, at this point, without TLC. They have gotten themselves into exactly the same position as the G family---greed has a way of doing that.We should boycott ALL reality TV shows with children. They're all exploitive!
(Thanks to Deanna)

256 comments:

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Midwest Mom said...

from the original post: "It just isn't right or healthy for children, including the Duggars, to grow up with TV cameras filming their daily lives."

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Bravo, well said !

What's really sad is that JimBob & Michelle think that their reality show is an "encouragement to others."

I find nothing encouraging about their show. Period.

I feel sorry for Jill after having watched the wisdom-teeth removal episode. The girl was truly scared and in tears, and there it was, filmed and shown on national television for all the world to see. What should have been a private moment in the life of a teenager was turned into a spectator sport.

Anonymous said...

Oh, I agree! If it is exploitive for the Gosselins to do it, then it is just as expoitive for the Duggars.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Well said, Deanna!

IMO, "19 & Counting" is no more a portrayal of this family's 'reality' than was
J&K+8.

As with all reality shows, no matter how loud and long these families protests to the contrary, these shows are far from documentaries. They are planned and at least partially scripted. The events/outings are less reflective of what the family comes up on their own in their normal, every day life, than with what the suits at TLC think may make a compelling episodes. This set up does not qualify as 'reality' IMO.

I've read herein that the Duggars claim they want to use the show to 'spread the gospel'. Giving them the benefit of the doubt by assuming this is at least partially true, I still have to believe that the TLC $$$ are also a factor in their decision to allow the cameras into their lives.

If the Duggars are hopeful about winning souls by spreading their version of the bible, my guess is they are failing miserably. What they are doing is 'preaching to the choir' - those who were already bent in the direction of uber conservative, right wing "Christian" belief systems were already aware of and already considered themselves believers in at least SOME version/interpretation of the bible.

For those who were either unaware (not many in this country, I'd be willing to bet) of the bible, OR on the fence about religion in general or 'being a Christian' specifically, the Duggars have succeeded only in pushing us further away from such judgemental, cultish and patriarchal life style choices as we have observed on "19 & Counting".

That said, if the Duggars were sincere in wanting to use their show to put others in touch with god, IMO, it's time for them to realize the experiment has failed and, so, it is time to pull the plug on this show. JMO.

KitnKaboodle said...

Well if they "Can't" provide for their (huge) families BEFORE landing a show, then --maybe they shouldn't have HAD all those kids! (multiples, whatever)
The fat people show ? What is that?
When you sell out, you cannot them expect sympathy (at least from me)

Kat said...

I agree - it seems these shows all devolve into circus sideshows after one or two "seasons," because, really, how interesting would it be to just watch people, even people in extraordinary circumstances, live ordinary lives? That's why I think that, at best, the occasional specials or magazine articles, like those done by the Hensels or the Dilleys, are all the intrusion that should be allowed by parents of underage children. While we may be interested, they don't OWE us ANY information about their lives, and children, particularly, need to be shielded from the fallout of "fame."

This is a case where the new idea (of a family reality show) has outrun the current legal protections for minors. Networks such as TLC hide behind legal technicalities (they're not "actors") to do anything they want with these families, and play off the parents' need and greed. If all states had laws like California's to protect and limit the use of children in these shows, there would be far fewer shows of this type on TV.

Jane in California said...

Ohio Buckeye said:
If the Duggars are hopeful about winning souls by spreading their version of the bible, my guess is they are failing miserably. What they are doing is 'preaching to the choir' - those who were already bent in the direction of uber conservative, right wing "Christian" belief systems were already aware of and already considered themselves believers in at least SOME version/interpretation of the bible
* * * *

Not surprising, I share your opinion in this regard. I was just thinking about this the other day -- wondering if anyone actually became more religious, or joined a conservative religion, because they saw the Duggars and felt compelled by their story?

I think those who were already of a conservative faith remain in that faith and therefore enjoy watching the Duggars because they like to see a positive portrayal of their faith on national tv.

However, for the more secular population (which is the majority), if they tune in, it was for curiousity's sake. It has only served to strengthen my own beliefs and made me grateful that I wasn't raised in a household like the Duggars.

I think the irony is that the Duggars have served to make people more aware of their own choices, and perhaps like me, very grateful to have them.

I wish them nothing but the best, but I think it's time for them to leave the limelight and try to return their family back to normal, private individuals. No more sharing delicate, personal moments, moments of deep grief, embarrassing moments, etc. Especially with their youngest who will need much care and attention - turn the cameras off. Focus on your family, not on material things and fleeting fame. Be grateful you had the opportunity to earn much more money than your properties will ever bring in, invest it wisely, continue to live frugally and fade back into a more normal private life.

Katie B said...

I completely disagree. The gosselins show us that maybe they are parents to alot of kids but they do not enjoy it...i quit watching that show cause they seem to be so annoyed with what their children do. The Duggars are completely different...they show how to be a good wholesome family and still keep their beliefs and morals. I started watching this show cause i was curious as to how they function with that many childrena an i have grown to love the show and want to better my children in a way that is pleasing to the lord as well as teach them the right and wrongs without having to yell and spank.
I really do not think that the duggars are greedy in anyway...they are not spending their money on crazy things and trying to make the front cover of every magazine like the gosselins.

I believe that the Duggars are what reality shows should be...good wholesome and leave the audience wanting more of the good times and not the bad

becoming disenchanted said...

Let's start a list of all the things the Duggars have done BECAUSE of TLC, not because they were interested in it or would have gone there anyway.

I will start:

New blinds in the house
Riding in the parade at Dollywood
Visiting the Biltmore House
Going to the Ethiopian restaurant

Ollie said...

Re: Using the show to spread the Gospel

I always found it very telling what the main motive of the show was when I watched Jim Bob passing out family photos to complete strangers, but never one instance of a Bible.

Can't See Sheep said...

orignial post
It just isn't right or healthy for children, including the Duggars, to grow up with TV cameras filming their daily lives. Being a reality TV star because your parents were so foolish as to sell off your childhood is really dangerous.
----------------------

Thank you, thank you so much. Kudos Deanna! I'm so tired of the Duggar's getting a pass on things the Gosselin's would be roasted alive for. People keep saying the Duggar's are nice. I don't know what everyone else's definition of nice is, but in mine nice people do not sell their family weekly. I don't care if they smile at me with more teeth than the entire Osmond clan combined, nice people don't do these things. I'm also not terribly interested in hearing all of it blamed on TLC either, yep, they played their part, but again, nice people do not sell their family weekly. A special now & then, fine, but this is too much, when you sell your family weekly it's about the cash IMO. They need to fade back into obscurity.

Ohio Buckeye said:
If the Duggars are hopeful about winning souls by spreading their version of the bible, my guess is they are failing miserably.(snipped)
------------------------

Agreed. I'm not convinced they've won over many. I could always be wrong, but I haven't heard about people joining this particular brand of Christianity in droves or even in a trickle, since the Duggars have been on TV. However, what I have seen that has disturbed me is that the White supremacists really seem to like this family. Not entirely surprising, but it disturbs me nonetheless.

Deanna said...

Thanks for making my post a topic!

I think the question is why such a good and moral family would compromise their values like this.

For some of the medical miracles, the separation of conjoined twins, the facial reconstructions, the tree men, the tumor removals...I think that the operations were covered because they were shown on TV. That 'might' be enough of a reason to compromise ones privacy (though I'd be hard pressed to do so).

Now, since there is Josie and her exorbitant medical costs, the Duggars might justify the show as a way to pay the bills. But the cost to the rest of the family is just too high.

Too bad... said...

I mentioned this on another blog several weeks ago. How about Jim-Bob and Michelle perched up on top of a ZAMBONI(!) at a hockey game, waving to the crowd as if they were King and Queen of....what? A Zamboni, of all things!? I can't for a moment believe this has anything to do with the "reality" of their day-to-day life...only what TLC wishes us to see. Also, Dollywood, rolling down hills in enormous inflated balls, hot air balloon riding, wedding dress purchasing at Kleinfelds...need I go on? Just another G-family UNREAL reality show. Too bad...I thought they were quite nice, down-to-earth, simple living people.

Pamela said...

I'm not against all reality tv shows. I think the issue with J&K and the Duggars is the ongoing aspect of it. Regular specials, a season, whatever might actually have positives for the families as well as society; but I think the ongoing is what causes an issue.

However, I do not believe, AT ALL, that the Duggars *need* the income from the show or anything else associated with their involvement with TLC. They were self-sufficient before and will be after. Money is nice, but I don't think it has to be the driving force in their case.

Midwest Mom said...

I thought that TLC (or maybe it was the interior decorator) gave the Duggars a new piano for the new DuggarMansion.

Add a piano to the list of freebies.

Anonymous said...

Ollie - I never thought of that about the family photos instead of the Bibles! That is such a good point, and I'm very glad you brought that up. I truly tried to see the best in the Duggars and give them the benefit of the doubt, but the more I watch JB and how proud he is of his large family, I agree that I'm not seeing much humility or evangelism going on at all, especially not in comparison to the self-promoting he always seems to do. Wow, couldn't have said it better myself.

Anonymous said...

Let's start a list of all the things the Duggars have done BECAUSE of TLC, not because they were interested in it or would have gone there anyway.

I will start:

New blinds in the house
Riding in the parade at Dollywood
Visiting the Biltmore House
Going to the Ethiopian restaurant

1/19/2010 2:19 PM

==================================

I offer every single trip they have taken (except ATI conference)

I was watching on the road with 16 kids (repeat) the special when they went on that month long road trip to CA.

As the narrator was talking about the logistics of traveling with 16 kids, I remember Michelle stating this was the first vacation they had taken in 6 years. So for the they-were-fine-before-TLC crowd, they may have been able to live, but they certainly were not living as well.

I seriously doubt they would have gone on that month long trip if TLC had not been footing the bill.

kathie

Anonymous said...

Jim Bob and Josh probably couldn't provide for their families, at this point, without TLC.

Why couldn't they? They were doing fine pre TLC.

Anonymous said...

I was just thinking about this the other day -- wondering if anyone actually became more religious,

Someone actually posted on this blog that they decided to visit a church after watching the show. I believe they said they visited a Unitarian church.

Kat said...

As far as "doing fine" before TLC - They may have been debt-free, but living with (then) 14 kids in a 2000+ sq. ft. home, several YEARS behind schedule in building their dream home, not taking vacations (except annual ATI conference trips), making their own clothes and buying second-hand at Goodwill, etc., etc. A scrimp and save lifestyle at best.

Post-TLC - expensive vacations to far-flung locations and resorts with expensive extras (plane rides, plush hotels, special tours and activities, etc.), home completed and furnished by TLC, new clothes by the rackful for photo shoots and TV appearances, expensive new bikes and play equipment, brand-new layette/car seat/crib set/etc. for Jordyn, Josh able to "support" his family with a used car lot open 10-6 Mon-Fri, etc., etc.

Yes, they were supporting their family before the show, but at a pretty basic, almost minimalist level. The income from TLC and all the freebies have pushed them into an entirely different tax bracket (and frame of mind).

Ollie said...

Someone actually posted on this blog that they decided to visit a church after watching the show. I believe they said they visited a Unitarian church.
***************************************************
I had to laugh at loud at this, I don't think the Duggars would be too happy to know they were encouraging people to become Unitarians. (Unitarians are a very liberal denomination of Christianity.) I suppose they might see it as a step in the right direction if the person in question was previously agnostic or atheist, but Unitarian sure is a long way down the road from fundamentalist Southern Baptist.

Hanging On said...

I went through a very devastating divorce (my ex left me when I was 7 mo pregnant with our 4th child) and I have questioned God since then. I still believe but it's hard to be poor & lonely while watching my ex & the (bleep) he left me for riding in new cars, living in a new house, living in another state I've always wanted to live in, having a new baby, taking vacation after vacation...you get the point.

I am inspired by the Duggars' total faith in God and watch because it makes me want to find peace from my anger at God for allowing my & my children's lives to be torn apart while my ex is continually rewarded.

I don't want to live their lifestyle, but I have a lot of respect for them and their religious beliefs do inspire me.

Anonymous said...

I totally agree.WWJD? Perhaps the Duggars should ask themselves this question.For that matter, I don't think Mother Teresa would have agreed with selling out your family on national tv,either.Too bad she is not still alive to have something to say about it,as I bet she surely would have.(I don't think she would disagree with having children,only selling their childhood lives out for consumption to television viewing audiences).

Dunwoody Mom said...

And if there were any doubt, the birth of little Josie is now a TLC special. Shame on your Jim Bob and Michelle. I would say shame on TLC, but that would be a waste of breath.

Can't See Sheep said...

I'd like to bring up a point that I haven't seen mentioned, & I do think it's somewhat important. If it has been discussed I apologize. I am asking this because I don't know the answer, not because I'm being snarky.

I've seen it posted on this site by various posters that if little Josie didn't make it, they'd still call the show "19 kids & counting", she'd still be considered a child of theirs. That said, why isn't the baby they lost to do with the birth control, the one that but them on this path, why is that baby not counted? Does anyone know the circumstances surrounding this, like how far along Michelle was when it happened or anything? Miscarriages aren't counted or are they not counted up to a certain number of months? I mean Michelle was pregnant, that pregnancy didn't suddenly cease to have happened. So she'd have been pregnant 20 times & given birth to 19 so far. Is it only babies born that are counted? They credit this baby that wasn't born with a very large decision they made in their lives & yet, this baby is not counted in their numbers, why? He/she is responsible for shaping their life & family a great deal.

Now I'm guessing that these people don't believe in abortion as the unborn baby is considered a living sentient being, gift from God & so on & so forth, so why wouldn't this baby be considered a member of the family even if they were never technically born into this world? How does this work? The baby certainly was considered a lesson & sign from God. They seem to have names for their babies well in advance. Everywhere I've looked the kids listed go from Josh to the the twins Jana & John-David. I saw on a show of theirs this morning, they were talking about the baby they lost that would have been born between Josh & the twins. Again, it seems strange to me that a baby who altered their lives so profoundly is not counted?

My paternal grandma who is not from an ultra consevative religion counted all her babies, born & unborn, she always said she had 12 kids, 9 of whom were living. Yes, I am just trying to get my head around this. When people asked her how many kids she had, she always answered 12.

reality bites said...

I am inspired by the Duggars' total faith in God and watch because it makes me want to find peace from my anger at God for allowing my & my children's lives to be torn apart while my ex is continually rewarded.
**************
I may be going out on a limb here, but it frightens me you are viewing the Duggars for this type of inspiration. Please, keep in mind that reality shows are not real. They are scripted. Other so-called reality shows have proven that. Perhaps it would be better to find a spiritual counselor in real life. If you aren't attending a church or synagogue or mosque now, maybe it's time you look for one. Find some real people to give you an uplift, because the Duggars may love God, and I'm sure they do, but the life they show on TV is not real.
ps.
I've prayed for you and am sending you positive energy.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Which ethic takes precedence: the Duggars' Quiverful beliefs OR, considering Mrs. D's age, gravidity, and previous pre-eclampsia, risking the health outcome of subsequent babies (#20and beyond)?

If Josie has long term/permanent disabilities due to her extreme prematurity, will the Duggars be willing to allow TLC to exploit this in order to maintain TLC's desire for hoped-for dramatic and compelling episodes?

Anonymous said...

I respect the Duggar family's right to live their lives as they choose and to worship according to their choice. I respect their choice to have as many children as they want, so long as they don't use my tax dollars to pay for them.

(What I don't respect is their steady yet continuous tumble down the rabbit-hole of TLC inspired greed.)

HOWEVER, I also believe that they should equally respect that I have the right to live my life as I choose to... to educate my sons and daughters in evolutionary science, to wear pants and swimsuits, to legally purchase alcohol at a mini-mart, or to legally obtain an abortion. I don't feel they respect my right to my choices the same way I respect theirs, which is what kind of irks me.

That is one thing that makes this country great - CHOICE. We have the ability to choose our own path, a religion that comforts us, and a lifestyle that suits us.

The Duggars have chosen their life. Perhaps some of their children will choose a different way (my private hope is that they do). If other people choose to become more or less religious after watching their show, then so be it.

Anonymous said...

Can't See Sheep, I don't even think it's a matter of Christianity but of the state and general practice about how many children are counted. There are no birth certificates issued for miscarriages. They aren't counted on birth certificates as "children" in future births. Generally only live births count. Surely the Duggars mourned the miscarriage, but it is still different from a live born child.

Anonymous said...

I've read herein that the Duggars claim they want to use the show to 'spread the gospel'.

Someone posting here said that but the Duggars did not. They said they wanted to be an encouragement to people and show the world that children are a blessing, not a burden.

Anonymous said...

I had to laugh at loud at this, I don't think the Duggars would be too happy to know they were encouraging people to become Unitarians.

The statement was made that no one was ever encouraged spiritually by the Duggars show. The person who posted here saying they had been encouraged by the Duggars to seek out spirituality was mentioned to show that the statement was incorrect that no one was ever encouraged spiritually by the Duggars.



Of course people have been enocuraged spiritually and in other manners by the Duggars.

Anonymous said...

Ohio Buckeye said...

Which ethic takes precedence: the Duggars' Quiverful beliefs


The Duggars have stated that they are not a part of the Quiverfull movement.

Anonymous said...

reality bites - I don't understand what is wrong with someone's being inspired by the Duggars. Even if what we see isn't 100% reality, I'm happy that some people find them inspirational, comforting or whatever other word fits. I do understand that in some ways it is unrealistic to look to the Duggars as a model, because, for example, they did save up and not have children for five years rather than starting out debt free from renatl properties, etc. However, if someone is positively influenced by watching the show, I don't see the point in trying to discourage that person if she is getting something good out of it and being helped in some way.

Deanna said...

Personally, I believe that it is dangerous for people to think that they can have 20 children and live like the Duggars. The Duggars only live that way because of the money and many perks from TLC. This is not the type of encouragement that I would like to see the Duggars providing, but it does seem to be their goal: to tell people that having a lot of kids is a "blessing". Sure, if you can afford all those kids, who need food, shelter, education, etc. Oh, and they also need attention from their mothers; not to be passed off to be raised by their sisters!

If one does the tiniest bit of research on other Quiverful families, it is obvious that most live in near poverty, some on government assistance. Many seem quite satisfied with this lifestyle, but it is enormously difficult for the women (who do the lion's share of work, without a lot of conveniences).

I just would hate for anyone to be "encouraged" to have a gigantic family that they really can't afford, and many people who follow this lifestyle seem not to think through the fact that children are expensive and have many needs, both financial and emotional!

Ohio Buckeye said...

Anonymous @8:37 am: Clapping! Thanks for a well-stated critique. You have captured perfectly my sentiments about this show and the belief systems it champions.

nccalgal said...

Deanna's orginal post had to do with the genre of "family" reality shows in general. IMO each one has a limited time to run its course before viewers lose interest and TLC will milk every second of that time. LPBW just concluded their "season" and my condolences to anyone who had the fortitude to sit through every episode. What happened to the pumpkin farm? The two main themes of the show were the twins senior year and no plans for the future and the tension between Matt and Amy. If there are four kids with worse entitlement attitudes than the Roeloff kids, I'd hate to meet them. Enough has been hashed out regarding how TLC handled the last season of J&K8. Now they are playing up the Duggar's situation for all it's worth. The list goes on and on. All these children are affected whether they are on for one season or ten. Fortunately, I live a very ordinary life, but if TLC came knocking on my door, I certainly wouldn't answer it!

Ohio Buckeye said...

Anonymous @ 9:37 am: You may be right, perhaps the Duggars aren't part of Quiverful.

However, there are some Quiverful sites that quote the Duggars and refer to the Duggars as members.

So, who knows? As we all know, we can't believe everything we read or see, especially if viewed on TLC.

Whether or not they are card-carrying Quiverful folk, they certainly have lived the Quiverful dogma/lifestyle, with no end in sight at least at this moment.

reality bites said...

reality bites - I don't understand what is wrong with someone's being inspired by the Duggars. Even if what we see isn't 100% reality, I'm happy that some people find them inspirational, comforting or whatever other word fits.
*********
From what this person wrote, she is very upset with God. That is her reality. To look at the Duggars as an inspiration is fine, if she's watching them in the context of say a feel good Hallmark movie. In other words, what she see's the Duggars doing is not their reality. It is scripted. ALL reality shows are scripted. Look at Jon and Kate and the wedding renewal. etc...
I'm sure the Duggars love God, but to look to them for hope, inspiration, guidance...? That's what real people help you to do. I've learned in AA, never put one of you're fellows on a pedestal, because when they fall, it will effect you. And I believe the Duggars will fall from grace, if they haven't already. Always look to your God, whatever, or whoever that God is, as your inspiration. It's worked for me for twenty-one years. What I am saying is she needs to seek out a spiritual guide to help her, not a scripted tv show.

Anonymous said...

I'm encouraged by the Duggars, absolutely.

I'm encouraged to keep believing in birth control!

Just for thoughts... said...

I never have beleived in family reality shows.... If my family was broadcast when I was young I would have run away.... There is so much of childhood and teenage years and adulthood that is private and should stay that way!! The wisedom teeth removal is a great example of that! And modesty?! Forget that when you have a video of yourself puking when you where little and vuneralbe and the world can youtube to see it!

Anonymous said...
"I respect the Duggar family's right to live their lives as they choose and to worship according to their choice. I respect their choice to have as many children as they want, so long as they don't use my tax dollars to pay for them.

(What I don't respect is their steady yet continuous tumble down the rabbit-hole of TLC inspired greed.)

HOWEVER, I also believe that they should equally respect that I have the right to live my life as I choose to... to educate my sons and daughters in evolutionary science, to wear pants and swimsuits, to legally purchase alcohol at a mini-mart, or to legally obtain an abortion. I don't feel they respect my right to my choices the same way I respect theirs, which is what kind of irks me."

THANK YOU!!! couldn't say it better. I feel that JB expects everyone to accpect his choices for his family but will not agknowledge (sp.) anyone else's choices... Like only his choices are correct. Example on the Dollywood episode when Dolly says the her momma had 12 children and the doctor told her she had to stop- so she did (her choice)--- did you see how quickly he changed the subject? Like the children would be poisoned by the info that someone else made a differnt choice?

Chris said...

Could the Duggars survive without TLC? Yes, but it would be a very minimal lifestyle. My husband grew up with 13 siblings(his mom said she always "needed" a baby), in a single-wide trailer with a basement. He had pancakes everyday breakfast for 17 years, wore hand me downs, and they got a few family gifts at christmas, no individual gifts. My husband first birthday gift was the one I gave him in his late 20's. A birthday was just a cake. Luckily they had a large piece of land in a warm climate so the kids played outside. My husband spent many hours at the library. The only huge difference is that my husband and his siblings went straight to college/military and none had more then 4 kids, most have 2. None wanted this lifestyle for themselves.

So the Duggars could still be living in a small house, like the Bates were until recently, making their own clothes, and getting very few "new" things. You can live on alot less then you think when you have to.


I wonder how the Duggar kids would feel if they had to go back to their old house and spending (has anyone noticed in the first special they say it cost $1500 a month for food and household expenses and in a more recent episode they say it is $5000)? What if the Duggars had to do what some people that have premmies have to do, sell their home to pay for the medical bills? Would all the kids be humble and go right back to "country clothes" over "modern modest", no new bikes, or trips? or would some kids complain or have a hard time adjusting?

Marybeth said...

I disagree with many points made.

1) JimBob is not an evangelist--he (actually the kids) is not handing out pictures to promote his family, he is handing them out because those around them seem generally interested--remember they come from a small town and they see this as an offer of kindness.

2) Why doesn't he hand out Bibles? Because a) he is not a minister and b) they have said they show their faith through how they live their daily lives but would never force their faith on anyone (cousin Amy anyone?)
3) As for their trip across the country to the west coast--this was THEIR planned trip, not a TLC trip--if you watch the show TLC said "we decided to follow along" and Michelle said "we promised the kids we'd go to the west coast since last time we went to the east coast." So no, the trip was the Duggars plan, not TLC's. TLC saw an opportunity to follow them, yes, but did not make the plan for them.

3) As a homeschooled family they look for ways to show their kids outside experiences and the show happens to offer them many...trips included. Yes having 19 kids has granted them many opportunities to travel to many places and see many things. They make learning experiences of all of them, not just fun and games.

4) Saying that JB couldn't support his family without TLC isn't true. He was supporting them just fine before TLC showed up and will continue to do so when TLC leaves. Josh may stumble a bit at the beginning, but if you've read JB and Michelle's book, so did they at the beginning, but Josh has a good foundation to lean on and he'll make it.

5) Saying these kids have no education because they didn't/aren't going to college is a little short-sighted. They have more skills than many college-educated people do--me included. Even the girls. Remember they ALL built that house, girls included. They know construction, electrical, wiring, plumbing, drywall, how to shop economically, budget, care for a household, organize, childcare (even the boys), clean a house, tune up a car (even the girls), and garden. I have an $80k bachelor's degree and no marketable skills, so to say that these kids aren't ready for the real world is not giving them much credit--I wasn't ready for the real world--I was one of the people JB talks about--up to my ears in credit card debt!

6) saying the kids are exploited, i just don't see it, i think they enjoy it--the Duggars have made sure the crew is "family" and maybe there is another way to look at Jill's wisdom teeth surgery--she could have been offering herself as she says "a servant's heart" and showing other's that it's not so bad and "if i can do it you can do it"---because that's how that family it--they want to share, they want to be a beacon

I think they use TLC to show the world that it's possible to live debt free happily and still live your faith, to enjoy the world, have fun in a wholesome way and not betray your faith. That is what they mean by "encourage" people. That is why I like them so much--they don't hand out Bibles, they don't preach that I should be a Christian (I'm an Orthodox Jew) but because we live much the same lifestyle--modest dress, homeschooling, debtfree living, no birth control, etc--I respect them. I also respect them because they are generally kind people. They go out of their way to NOT be offensive to people. I think they try very hard to show the world how to be better people by example in many many different ways, but sometimes you have to read between the lines to see it.

Hanging On said...

Reality Bites: thank you for your input. I have recently started attending a church & am slowly & cautiously seeking some guidance. It is very difficult for me to trust people so that's probably partly why the Duggars appeal to me (since they're on TV).

I disagree that everything about them is scripted. Their lifestyle as it pertains to their religious beliefs was there before TLC was. I used to visit a message board where someone who lived near them posted. I remember her posting when they were having #13 I think and we all discussed how difficult it would be to have so many children. She talked about their religious conviction even then.

I do appreciate your concern and I am seeking other sources of inspiration & healing but I do enjoy watching the Duggars. Random thought, though...watching Table for 12 made me really miss being married but I've never felt that while watching the Duggars or the Gosselins. I wonder why? Well with the G's it's obvious cuz they didn't have a happy marriage but I wonder why it's like that with the Duggars. Hmmmmm, something for me to analyze!

Candy Cane Can said...

I am encouraged by the Duggars too! I received "encouragement" that sending my children to excellent public schools was the best decision!

Deanna said...

I wouldn't answer the call for a reality TV show either (although my children have threatened to call "What Not to Wear" on me LOL!). I am too shy and private. I could never stand to have camera people following me around, even for a single one hour show. No way in a million, trillion years would I allow them to film my family, EVEN IF we were in some way "interesting enough" (thank God we aren't) to be on a reality show.

Watching these family dramas unfold on TV (the dissolving marriages of the G's and Roloff's) should make EVERYONE glad they are not on the TLC gravy train. One has to give up a LOT for that money---privacy and integrity being the two most important. Who knows if those marriages would have broken up were it not for the "show"?

At the very least, I would not want sketchy men knowing where my daughters live, and everything about them. It skeeves me out every time, when I think of Jim Bob and how he simply doesn't realize the most basic things about family privacy.

Ollie said...

Good points Chris!

I wonder how the kids will adjust to no longer having cameras following their family around, not to mention no longer doing things for the cameras to film? Without TLC footing the bill I'm betting those weeks long trips will become a thing of the past. I get the impression that the Duggars went into this whole thing blind without a plan for what they would do once it was all over. Josh had better get some work ethic because without the show a used car lot open 10-6 MF and shut down frequently so he can go on family vacations does not a family support.

Anonymous said...

"""(has anyone noticed in the first special they say it cost $1500 a month for food and household expenses and in a more recent episode they say it is $5000)?""""


That total was for a time when another large family was visiting them.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Anonymous 12:39 and Candy Cane: HA! I'm with you both on these points!

Further, thanks to the Duggars, I'm 'encouraged' to ENCOURAGE women of all ages to use their inherent strength, independence, and intelligence to maximum potential instead of downplaying these in some patriarchal set up.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Deanna: Another really good comment, and I think you're right about JB.

JB seems to take such pride in being the patriarchal leader, that he sometimes comes across as a little dense or insensitive about how his decisions affect others.

According to the show, all Duggars love dutifully falling into JB's cue, and all seems to go well so long as no one voices any objection to JB's reign.

I have to wonder how it would go if any of the Duggars ever openly disagreed with JB? Somehow, I doubt JB would keep grinnin' and pickin'.

NewWester said...

Here is a question: Did the Duggars go to TLC for the idea of their show or did TLC come to them?
I don't agree with everything the family does, but I have to wonder if TLC was to come knocking at the door how many people would say yes to doing a television show?
In particular with their latest child in the hospital the money TLC is paying them must be a huge help. The Duggars may be debt free but even that can only go so far when it comes to huge hospital bills.

reality bites said...

Hanging On said...
Reality Bites: thank you for your input. I have recently started attending a church & am slowly & cautiously seeking some guidance. It is very difficult for me to trust people so that's probably partly why the Duggars appeal to me (since they're on TV).

**************
I have tears in my eyes as I type this. You sound like such a sweet, darling person. I'm not in your situation now, but long ago my life hung by a thread, too! I found good people I could talk too and it made all the difference. I met an honorable man by storming heaven with tears and prayers. I'm so glad your "dipping your toe in" so to speak. There really are people out in the world who can be trusted. Once again, the prayer Footprints in the Sand comes to mind. YOU CAN DO IT!!! IT WILL GET BETTER!!!

Anonymous said...

Marybeth - I have to point out, regarding JB handing out pictures, that this morning I watched the episode where Michelle and JB went to SanFrancisco... there was a homeless man sitting on the street, and JB handed him a picture of the family. That was all. No money, no food, no Bible, just a picture of a family that I'm SURE this man didn't ask for or care to have.

Anonymous said...

re: but I have to wonder if TLC was to come knocking at the door how many people would say yes to doing a television show?

I believe it was the Heppner family (16 or so kids,also homeschooled,one adopted )that was originally offered a show,before the D's were ever considered.They turned it down.
I have much more respect for them.

Ollie said...

Response to Marybeth's comment:

1. I'm sure some of the people Jim Bob gives pictures to are fans of his family and would be happy to have one. But for a family that speaks of modesty and humility it looks very prideful like he's saying "look at me, I'm fathering a nation." And I would argue that since he carries family photos around to hand out like business cards self promotion is part of the deal, which in some ways is expected since his family is now a business.

2. Part of most Protestant faiths is the need to go around evangelizing and sharing the good news with non-belivers. I agree that the Duggars are not nearly as overbearing as some other people I have meet in real life, but they are judgmental and do try to force their beliefs on others. We all judge others frequently and whether we are aware or not our beliefs (religious and otherwise) influence our decisions all the time. I can think of several instances where the Dugars show that they judge others unfavorably, one example is the girls commenting on the women at the wedding dress store who were wearing off the shoulder dresses. The Duggars also tried to ban a store from getting a liquor permit, that was their legal right but again a decision made to force others to live the way they want.

3.It's hard to tell with what little we see on the show, and some would say I have very high standards in this area, but I would not count some of the trips they had as adequate learning experiences. For example, I don't think anyone, least of all Jim Bob who came out and said so, knew much of anything about the Vanderbilts. It's a pity if that's true and not just what we saw because the kids could have learned so much about the Gilded Age, history of business and transportation, and architecture by studying the Vanderbilts and Biltmore. Instead, at least it looked like to me, that they just saw a large old house.

4. I think it's true that Jim Bob did and could support his family without TLC, but certainly not at the standard of living they've come to enjoy from the show. Compare the family before TLC and after and you can see a marked improvement in quality of life. I'm sure Jim Bob has and will probably always be able to provide for the basic material needs of his family, but it will be a hard adjustment for them to go back to their old way of life.

5. I believe this has already been addressed on the blog, but the skills these kids have aren't really considered marketable because employers assume everyone has them. Yes, the Duggar girls are more than prepared to take on running their own households, and that's a good thing. However they, and the boys, are ill prepared to go out into the workforce if marriage or family business doesn't work out for them. Even if they have knowledge about building a house, they have very limited knowledge and no one is going to hire them over someone with training and/or years of experience. Added to that is the fact that many employers take a history of family employment with a grain of salt because there's no objectivity. The Duggars are doing their children a real disservice by not encouraging them to get any further education, career training, or outside work experience. I don't know what your degree is in, but you can get training in plenty of marketable and practical fields. You also don't have to spend $80k to get a bachelor's degree. I think it is foolish for anyone but maybe the independently wealthy to go to an expensive private liberal arts college and major in creative writing or such, but that's not the same thing as gaining marketable skills which these children all need.

Anonymous said...

Marybeth said...

Remember they ALL built that house, girls included. They know construction, electrical, wiring, plumbing, drywall, how to shop economically, budget, care for a household, organize, childcare (even the boys), clean a house, tune up a car (even the girls), and garden.

**********
Actually, it occurs to me that the house was built, what 5 years ago now? That means probably from Jessa on down, nobody even looked at anything more complicated than a yardstick. The girls do all the planning and packing and organizing. That garden they discussed never seemed to come to fruition. I've never seen them harvest anything. If that was the case, we should hear about all the canning they are doing.

I think it's mostly for show and some of the comments made by Jim Bob & Michelle just make good sound bytes. Are we to believe that Jill and Jessa would be allowed tile their own bathroom (assuming they will ever need to again) or (gasp!) take a job that will utilize those skills?

Deanna said...

With all due respect to Marybeth, I do not see the Duggars using any of these freebie trips as "learning experiences". I cringed when Michelle talked about the trip to the Biltmore as being a way to teach about "shapes and colors". Aside from Johanna or Jennifer, which of the 18 children needed instruction in that heavy concept? It was truly embarrassing.

Jim Bob could have used the opportunity to talk about the Vanderbilts and the entire era in which they lived, to make historical comparisons to the past and present. But he didn't. All he did was ask if HIS giant family could ignore the rules re the cordoned off table, and stand there for a photo opp. Talk about self-promoting and immodest!

I think we have talked before on the blog about how college isn't for everyone. No one here, as far as I can tell, is saying that all the kids should be in college. However, none of the ones who have graduated are doing anything to advance skills, career or education. No trade school, no apprenticeship, no job, no on-line school, no local community college. It's just a shame.

For me, the thing that has always bothered me most about the Duggars (aside from how I think they have sold themselves out), is their attitude towards learning and education. Not COLLEGE per se, but using any opportunity to extend ones learning. Most homeschooling families, who do it well, do a much, much better job than the Duggars do.

Cyn said...

I think we have talked before on the blog about how college isn't for everyone. No one here, as far as I can tell, is saying that all the kids should be in college. However, none of the ones who have graduated are doing anything to advance skills, career or education. No trade school, no apprenticeship, no job, no on-line school, no local community college. It's just a shame.
***********************************

We do not KNOW they aren't doing any of these things... just that they aren't being FILMED doing them. Same way we ALL assumed it was just Josh, Anna and the doula... but there WAS a midwife there but was not filmed (check the people article I posted the link to on another post)

For all we KNOW the girls could be taking on-line classes, going out with various Midwives or doula's to see if that's what they want to do with their lives...

I also remember Michelle talking about some of the girls getting their Realtor Licenses and then nothing else was said after that. We have no idea if they have already gotten them or decided not to get them.

As for their 'employment ability'... they live in a small town/ area and most would know either them OR of them, and would give them a shot where as some one in NYC wouldn't give them the time of day.

Anonymous said...

ie College and the Duggar children

I think I remember in one of the older specials (maybe the one where they all said what they wanted to be when they grew up) they mentioned college.

If I recall correctly he said that the children could go if they wanted to. That if it was something they truly felt they wanted/needed to do they would find a way. I took to mean that if the children wanted to they would have to figure out how a pay for it and find a place to go, much like Erin Bates did.

Anyone else remember this?

Anonymous said...

I heard Michelle teach the word 'perpendicular' when they were building the house,but that's about all.

Marybeth said...

What you see in 30 minutes is not what happens in 24 hours. Many of you have already made your decisions of what you believe about this family and no blog is going to change your feelings. I will state my opinion and what I see in those 30 minutes is something far different from what other posters seem to be seeing. What TLC chooses to edit into those 30 minutes and what happens afterwards is entirely different.

As for Jana and Jessa using their tiling skills--they used them at the Bates remodel, so they are still quite relevant. And remember, these kids are still kids, not yet adults, so pushing them out of the nest a little early if they aren't ready to go doesn't make sense to me. JB and Michelle have said many many times that the kids can choose to go to college or trade school if they want to, but none of them are going at this time.

And yes, my wealthy parents sent me to an over-priced liberal arts college for a creative writing degree against my will and now i have no marketable skills. Frankly I wish they were more like the Duggars and taught me how to balance a check book, use tools, check my oil, fix a flat, make my bed, and shop economically.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Deanna said, "With all due respect to Marybeth, I do not see the Duggars using any of these freebie trips as "learning experiences". I cringed when Michelle talked about the trip to the Biltmore as being a way to teach about "shapes and colors". Aside from Johanna or Jennifer, which of the 18 children needed instruction in that heavy concept? It was truly embarrassing.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Excellent point! Anyone remember the Disney episode when Mrs. D was using it as a 'teaching moment' by saying, "say: Am -a- zon"?

As you stated, who, but the very youngest of kids, needs a 3 syllable word to be broken down in order to 'get it'?? And what beyond basic phonics was taught about the Amazon? (Yes, I know: we don't see what's taught off camera...)

Perhaps Mrs. D would be a great pre-K or K teacher, but one has to wonder what skills she brings to the teaching table for grades 1-12.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@MaryBeth: Do the Duggars hold church services in their home, and, so get a tax break on their property? If so, who leads the services, and if it's not JB, how does their home qualify for a non-profit church tax exemption?

Or is none of the info out there correct about the Duggars holding regular church services in their home and getting a non-profit tax break?

Anyone know for sure? Just curious.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I have to say it but oh no here comes the old canard again. Ohio Buckeye this has been debunked here at least twice. Property tax records have been quoted along with IRS regulations. It's the internet rumor that will not die kind of thing. They pay the same property taxes as everyone else and even having church in their home would not give them a right off.

Kat said...

And yes, my wealthy parents sent me to an over-priced liberal arts college for a creative writing degree against my will and now i have no marketable skills. Frankly I wish they were more like the Duggars and taught me how to balance a check book, use tools, check my oil, fix a flat, make my bed, and shop economically.

Against your will? Really? You were an adult - why didn't you just say no?

No marketable skills? I've worked with many a creative writing major in the business world - ad agencies, marketing departments, even technical writing groups.

My non-wealthy parents helped me attend a state university, where I received a degree in a field that I did not end up working in. However, the critical thinking and analytical skills I acquired, along with the exposure to a wide diversity of ideas and techniques and perspectives, allowed me to flourish in an entirely different career path. Oh, and all that other stuff? I knew that BEFORE I left for college. Higher education and practical skills are not mutually exclusive.

Whether the Duggar children want to acquire education beyond the high school level is up to them, but education of any kind is rarely wasted. Plenty of "farmers" go to college to learn about the business and science of farming. Plenty of small business owners get degrees in business administration so they can be more efficient and make better decisions.

What seems out of whack with the Duggars is that despite constant statements about their futures (lawyer! pilot! nurse!), none of them seem to be actually pursuing any of these options. Whether that is truly because they don't want to, or because they have been immersed in the notion that venturing out into the world is somehow a betrayal of their beliefs and will lead to their spiritual downfall is the question that sticks in my mind.

Yes, they are *adults* from a legal standpoint, but when you have been raised your entire life being trained to think and act one way, told that thinking and acting any other way is "wrong," and kept from any meaningful interaction with people who think differently, it takes a powerful inner strength to stand up to that indoctrination and choose a different path.

Celestie said...

Sometimes I wonder, when coming home from a performance of an opera, a ballet, a drama or a musical, how much of this beautiful world the Duggars have shut off in their lives. I'm wondering if a Duggar had a opera voice, or the ability to move his or her body in a way that would make an audience gasp in admiration, Or a talent to write something of substance. Besides not exploring any intellect that the children have, they can not, or will not provide opportunities for the children to explore classical, contemporary music, drama and ballet. (Well, except for that really bad violin playing.) There is a huge cannon of fabulous music, and literature that is not evil. It may not be Christian, but it isn't evil.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Anonymous: I'm a newcomer to this particular blog, so didn't know this issue had come up previously - sorry, and thanks for the info.

Do the Duggars hold regular church services in their home or do they attend a church? Or both?

Thanks.

reality bites said...

but there WAS a midwife there but was not filmed (check the people article I posted the link to on another post)
*************
With all due respect, just because something is in People Magazine doesn't make it true. I've read various accounts about the birth. I've read there was only a doula, I've read the doula is also a midwife. I've read that there was a doula and a midwife. It would be nice if the Duggars, who deemed it necessary to show the birth on T.V. would explain who helped in case someone sees their show and just decides on the spur of the moment to have a home birth, like they portrayed, because their doctor is out of town, or because they made it all seem so easy.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Reality Bites: I'm just curious as to why any midwife would identify self as a doula, since a midwife has more training and, so, at least theoretically, be better prepared to assist a laboring and birthing mom, especially if any problems with the labor/birth arise.

A midwife can act legally as a doula, but at least in my state, a doula cannot legally perform as a midwife.

Can anyone add any info to this? Thanks.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Applause, applause for @Celestie!! EXCELLENT points.

What a shame to deny your kids so much beauty, so much good in the world.

What a shame to give your kids the impression that most people and situations outside their tight, little circle are 'sinners/sinful' and a threat to their morality.

Out of 19 kids, I wonder what the odds are that one or more offspring will a) eventually fly the coop, b) be gay, c) get divorced?

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Kat: Wow, right on target! I SO agree with all your points.

"... the critical thinking and analytical skills I acquired, along with the exposure to a wide diversity of ideas and techniques and perspectives, allowed me to flourish in an entirely different career path. Oh, and all that other stuff? I knew that BEFORE I left for college. Higher education and practical skills are not mutually exclusive.

... because they have been immersed in the notion that venturing out into the world is somehow a betrayal of their beliefs and will lead to their spiritual downfall is the question that sticks in my mind.

Yes, they are *adults* from a legal standpoint, but when you have been raised your entire life being trained to think and act one way, told that thinking and acting any other way is "wrong," and kept from any meaningful interaction with people who think differently, it takes a powerful inner strength to stand up to that indoctrination and choose a different path."

SO well said! I'd go so far as to say the Duggar kids have been trained NOT to think, merely to accept and obey, and to do anything beyond that is somehow sinful.

As a parent, I'd sure feel I'd shortchanged my kids had I provided this kind of stultifying upbringing.

Cyn said...

Anonymous has left a new comment on the post "Duggars Dance to the TLC Tune?":

Sorry, I have to say it but oh no here comes the old canard again. Ohio Buckeye this has been debunked here at least twice. Property tax records have been quoted along with IRS regulations. It's the internet rumor that will not die kind of thing. They pay the same property taxes as everyone else and even having church in their home would not give them a right off.
****************

The DUGGARS can't qualify for the write off because JimBob won't stay out of politics.... if John Doe down the street opened his house for a church and filed the paper work for it John Doe could get the tax exempt stuff.... To qualify for the 501(c)(3) tax exempt status though they have to not preach politics or be active in politics and a bunch of other stuff the Duggars aren't going to want to do.

The Duggars DO pay property tax (look under fact or fiction on this blog), they have church services in their home and they also use their home for other gatherings as well. They also have a 'home church' in San Francisco (mentioned in that trip). From what I can tell Jim Bob is not the pastor of their church either.

JUST for the ones that I may have confused above; the 'home church' in San Francisco would be the 'parent church' that has started a church in a different area (Tonitown) and that's the church that meets in the Duggar house, and met in their house back when it was the little 2 and 3 bedroom houses.

Jane in California said...

Marybeth said:

And yes, my wealthy parents sent me to an over-priced liberal arts college for a creative writing degree against my will and now i have no marketable skills. Frankly I wish they were more like the Duggars and taught me how to balance a check book, use tools, check my oil, fix a flat, make my bed, and shop economically
* * *

As others have said, you were forced to go to college?

I have the same experience as you, except that I worked after I got out of high school so I could pay my way through college. I worked for 2 years. I attended a state college, got a B.A. in English Lit. I decided I didn't want to teach, so I looked around for any sort of low level job, to get my foot in the door.

I ended up working for various law firms and make a very decent living for myself. It's not just the degree, it's whether you have the gumption to make good use of your time, wherever it is spent.

Like I've said before, the Duggars have some skills - they can change a tire, or lay carpet, or cook and wash clothes. That's not going to be enough to land them anything but an entry level job. However, if they have a good basic education, they could learn on the job and hopefully rise through the ranks.

My dismay is in the fact that neither JB nor Michelle seem to attribute any value to a higher education, or even to training schools. How about one of those kids gets certified as a plumber - they make great money. Or how about an auto mechanic - another way to be self employed and do well. Beauty school? My stylist has his own salon and is comfortably well off. But I don't even see that level of ambition being encouraged by the parents.

They just seem to float along, and I hope they don't have to struggle later on in life because they didn't get any sort of formal education or training.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Cyn, Thanks for the background - I appreciate it.

I'm sure your are right, that JB has no intention of staying out of politics.

I'm guessing that if JB had his way, we'd be back under prohibition, the study of 'evolution' would be banned in schools, and, of course, there would be no abortion rights.

I wouldn't be surprised, if given free reign, the above would be only the beginning of JB's political agenda.

SPARE US, Oh, Lord!

Anonymous said...

It isn't just JimBob but most home churches don't qualify as "churches" in the sense of the IRS or the state in the matter of property taxes.

Anonymous said...

"It would be nice if the Duggars, who deemed it necessary to show the birth on T.V. would explain who helped"

They said they had a midwife.

Can't See Sheep said...

Ohio Buckeye said...
I'm guessing that if JB had his way, we'd be back under prohibition, the study of 'evolution' would be banned in schools, and, of course, there would be no abortion rights.
-------------------------

I agree with you completely Ohio Buckeye. I have never gotten the impression that this man respects anyone else's beliefs but his own, so to see him in politics is troubling to me, but then it's not really all that different from many other politicians. Is that what he's doing, using the show to help campaign? Is he currently running for anything?

LeashTraining said...

SO well said! I'd go so far as to say the Duggar kids have been trained NOT to think, merely to accept and obey, and to do anything beyond that is somehow sinful.

As a parent, I'd sure feel I'd shortchanged my kids had I provided this kind of stultifying upbringing.

1/21/2010 4:09 PM
***************
Personally, I have to wonder whether JimBob and J'ichelle are afraid! AFRAID of their little chilluns running amok if they are allowed one millimeter of freedom to think for themselves or make their own decision on the most minute of matters. Why else hold the leash SO tight??
Think about this: Usually, when a woman has got a man on what they term a "tight leash" it is because: she doesn't TRUST HIM. Now extrapolate that to the Duggars. Why put the kids on such stultifying (LOVE that term, btw) house arrest, of sorts?? Lack of trust. Perhaps lack of trust in their OWN upbringing of their OWN children?? It IS a possibility.!

Anonymous said...

re: Frankly I wish they were more like the Duggars and taught me how to balance a check book, use tools, check my oil, fix a flat, make my bed, and shop economically.
====================================

If that's all they can do,it's not going to be enough to suffice out there in the world of work.And even if they hadn't been taught these skills,they would most likely learn them from being out on their own.

Anonymous said...

re: Think about this: Usually, when a woman has got a man on what they term a "tight leash" it is because: she doesn't TRUST HIM. Now extrapolate that to the Duggars. Why put the kids on such stultifying (LOVE that term, btw) house arrest, of sorts?? Lack of trust. Perhaps lack of trust in their OWN upbringing of their OWN children?? It IS a possibility.!

yes and,thinking back to my own childhood,I can't imagine depriving my kids of so much of the world..even those little things(which were big things to me at the time),like favorite tv shows,fav. songs,fav. groups..and the bigger things,like fav teachers and best friends.This is one reason I decided not to homeschool.
I get the feeling Michelle would be jealous if the kids ever had a fav teacher that wasn't herself,or the kids had a best friend that wasn't one of their siblings.
Michelle flat out says in their book that she was mostly worried about their hearts,when deciding to homeschool.(IOW,the big bad world out there might ruin them).

Jane in California said...

Ohio Buckeye said:

SO well said! I'd go so far as to say the Duggar kids have been trained NOT to think, merely to accept and obey, and to do anything beyond that is somehow sinful.
* * *

Starting with the blanket training at a very young age.

reality bites said...

Anonymous said...
"It would be nice if the Duggars, who deemed it necessary to show the birth on T.V. would explain who helped"

They said they had a midwife.

******
On the show? Cuz I didn't hear it or see it. Why didn't they say it on the show? I'm really simply curious is all. I heard them say they had a doula.

Annie said...

FYI - Northwest Arkansas is a well-populated area. Rogers, Bentonville, Bella Vista, Springdale and Fayetteville have all grown to the point that they run into each other, and even the formerly tiny towns in NWA have exploded in population in the last ten years. The combined population of Benton and Washington counties is over 400,000. The Duggars do NOT live in a "small town" where they know everyone, and everyone would jump to hire their children.

Anonymous said...

I read in a magazine interview and read on another forum that they had a midwife.

Cyn said...

In one of the episodes at the car lot one of the "buyers" said they knew the Duggars and were known for being honest and fair. Other people in different interviews have said other complimentary things in their home area.

The Duggars live in Tonitown from the map it looks like an area off from the built up area up and down the interstate (could be my perspective) but I don't know many 'bigger cities' that let you buy 30 acres of land and build houses and commercial properties on the same land... That's usually more rural.


Re Friends outside the family:
We've seen some of the older girls "best friends" on the camping trip, Joy-Annah (I think) with friend by the comp. Other families may simply NOT want to be filmed.

OR if they did let them be filmed are those parents then like the Duggars/Goselins ect "selling their children's privacy ...

These children (the Duggars) are NOT being raised on some compound never to see and interact with the population at large. They are sheltered... more sheltered than some may like but then again so are the Amish, Some Mennonite Clans, and definitely that compound that got raided a few years ago and had the government give the children back to their parents.

As for the Amish and Rumspringa (sp sorry) not ALL Amish Sects participate to the same degree.

Some let them out into the wild but they have to "sneak off at night to meet with the BF", others turn them completely loose; the kids leave home and live in the real world the best that can for that year...

Cyn said...

Re Population Explosion...

According to this Data there were less than 2000 people in Tonitown in 2007 = Population in July 2007: 1,149.
Males: 574 (50.0%)
Females: 575 (50.0%)

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Tontitown-Arkansas.html#ixzz0dJeRNVsy


And according to this site the population for the entire Washington County is 195,000.

County population in July 2008: 195,803 (70% urban, 30% rural)

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/county/Washington_County-AR.html#ixzz0dJehq3F0


I see small towns, especially compared to larger cities... Small towns growing into each other; making bigger cities not withstanding it's still a small town atmosphere.

Anonymous said...

If, as I suspect, the family is getting paid per episode, let's take a look back and see what they did in the early years with TLC...

Season One - 11 episodes

Season Two - 21 episodes

Season Three - a whopping 28 episodes!

From Season 1 to 3 they nearly tripled their screen time.

They have also had 5 previous specials, starting in 2004. That means every kid since Jackson has had cameras in their little faces to record the awkward moments, the crying and vomiting and whatever else.

I don't mind the older kids being filmed. From Jill on up they are over 18 and likely (hopefully) have their own contracts. It's the exploitation of the littlest ones that bothers me.

nccalgal said...

True, when JB ran for office, he ran on a pro-life platform, but his stand on abortion rights has never been addressed on the show. Unless TLC airs the session where Michelle spoke at the public hearing of the ABC Board regarding the sale of alcohol at the mini-mart, they are entitled to their political views. There is no campaign to ban the teaching of evolution in public schools, so again, Intelligent Design is their belief. Granted, they did briefly show a stop at the Creation Museum, but it was just that. And BTW the Creation Museum is very impressive and gives a very intelligent scientific explaination of what they based their belief system on. It's a great way to expose oneself to a different point of view. Isn't that what posters keep saying on this blog, that the Duggars need to be exposed to other mindsets? Go and be "educated" to the other theory as to our origins.

doggie said...

the creation museum falls right into their belief system it does not give a different point of view.

Kat said...

The Fayetteville/Springdale metropolitan area contains over 400,000 people, the University of Arkanasas, the headquarters of WalMart, Tyson chicken, and JB Hunt Transport, regional offices of numerous major cos like Coca-Cola, Purina, Proctor & Gamble, etc.

It takes about 25 mins to drive from Tontitown to Fayetteville, which is less time than my daily commute. Springdale is even closer.

The Duggars isolate themselves. They do not live hours away from cultural and educational opportunities.

The limited "socializing" they have with others in the community (broomball, etc.) do not appear to include any significant interaction with other people, meaning friendships, conversations, etc. It is relatively easy to "interact" with other people in an environment such as broomball without saying much more than "Hi" and "Get it!" I've lived on a small street with only 9 homes for 10+ years. I have never been inside the homes of at least 7 of those familes, and I couldn't even tell you their names, but I "interact" with them every day as we pass in the street.

JB and Michelle (and the Amish, and the Mennonites, and the polygamist Mormons) have the right to raise their children as they see fit, as long as they stay within the law. That does not mean their choices can't be criticized, especially when they also choose to put that lifestyle and those choices out there in public for profit.

Cyn said...

Again... APPEARS we do not know what does or does not happen off camera.

If they film the kids playing with other families kids are the NEW parents selling their children for the almighty dollar 'like the Duggars?'

We've only seen the girls babysit once, could it be that was the ONLY family willing to "sell out" so the Duggars could show the girls earning money/ out of the house?

For example if the Duggars had some children in scouts.

Cyn said...

oops I hit publish instead of preview on the last one.

"For example if the Duggars had some children in scouts." To film that they would need the permission of the parents of the other scouts, troop leader's permission, what ever scout organization's permission (cub, girl, brownie w/e). Someone in all those 'permissions' are reading these blogs, or knows the media attention it draws and simply are NOT going to participate, depending on what it is they want to film ONE 'no' would scratch the whole idea.

Most people are upset with the Duggars BECAUSE they are on TV, and would not let their children be filmed for a TV show... so what makes the Duggars friends any different.

I can be friends with lots of people but if they are doing something I don't approve of or think is stupid I don't hang out with them at THOSE times. If I knew there was going to be a camera crew on certain days I would go over OTHER days. Simply calling Michelle and asking "media there today?" and depending on the answer setting up the 'play date'.

The possibilities are there. The fact is we do not know what they are doing day to day when the film crews are gone.

Could they be doing anything I have proposed? Yes

Are they doing any of them? We simply do not KNOW one way or the other.

Anonymous said...

This family is an embarassment to the intelligence of many if not most people. Even if I could have gotten past the exploitation of the children for the TLC $$$ or the ability to 'spread the word', I could never get past the ignorance made obvious by their much publicized visit to the "Creation Museum", where the Duggars confirmed that they not only believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old, but also that humans coexisted with dinosaurs. This view of history is known in evangelical circles as "Young Earth Creationism" and to most of the rest of the civilized world as blatant ignorance.

These poor children may meet the legal criteria of being "home schooled", but it's obvious to anyone paying attention that no adult in the house is capable of teaching them what the average child is expected to know by the time they graduate from high school. The girls are taught how to clean house and care for children, and the boys apparently are taught how to do such earth-shattering things as run a used car lot owned by their father. They may be able to lay tile and hammer a nail, change the oil in a vehicle and clean a kitchen, but they're intentionally kept in the dark about more things than I could name.

The family may have been able to technically "support" themselves prior to TLC, but not in the style to which they've now become accustomed. I've seen far too many tater tot casseroles to think they even know the basics of nutrition - they can fill the bellies, but not in a healthy fashion, and the nonsense with which they fill the minds makes me sick to think about.

I suspect JB spends more on hairspray in a week than is spent on vegetables - and I don't remember seeing any of the family sit down to read a book for pleasure.

If Michelle were mothering these children in the truest sense of the word, it would quickly become apparent that no one adult can adequately parent that many children; however, the littles are passed along to the older children so that Michelle can continue her preoccupation with garnering attention by being perpetually pregnant, while the older children are forced into virtual slavery.
That they've been trained to believe they actually enjoy some of their parenting and housecleaning duties is only further evidence of the indoctrination that's taken the place of their education.

I think the situation these children live in is one of the worst things I've ever seen. I can't fathom why some people see it any of it as admirable or even acceptable.

Can't See Sheep said...

Cyn said...
If they film the kids playing with other families kids are the NEW parents selling their children for the almighty dollar 'like the Duggars?'
-----------------------

As far as I'm concerned if they're filmed a few times no, if they're filmed weekly, every week, then yes.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Nccalgal: Some of us not only have been simply EXPOSED to these beliefs, but raised and indoctrinated in them.

It is not EXPOSURE to this kind of belief system we are lacking.

What we are lacking is any feeling that this kind of belief system has any credibility or worth.

We came, we saw, we we chose to leave.

Just as it is the D's right to insulate their kids (yet expose them on nat'l tv), it is our right to critique the image they have chosen to project on TLC.

To each, her own.

Tori said...

Kat said,

JB and Michelle (and the Amish, and the Mennonites, and the polygamist Mormons) have the right to raise their children as they see fit, as long as they stay within the law. That does not mean their choices can't be criticized, especially when they also choose to put that lifestyle and those choices out there in public for profit.

___________________________________

I totally agree with not critizing the Duggars for how they raise their children. I started to watch this show because I have always been fascinated with religion in America. In college I spent 1 year in UT/AZ doing research on the FDLS. I ended up spending almost 10 years in the area. I tried very hard to find out the answers to my questions without being critical of choices made.

From my viewing of the Duggars on TLC and from hours of reading books and on the internet about their beliefs I feel like the Duggars/and other families with the same beliefs worry me more then the FLDS. Of course in both groups have very extreme cases but in general FLDS women/men have a choice to go to college(Colorado city is a college town with mostly FLDS attending), can wear pants, use the internet(for more then just a handful of sites), have cell phones, shop alone, kids are in mainstream activites in and outside of school. Just looking at the facts without judging the lifestyle, many FLDS women I spoke with, either choose to have lots of kids and want to stay home, while others go to college have fewer kids and feel good that while at their career (which is usally in the medical field, tons of RN's ,CNP) their kids are with someone they trust.

As much as I could not personally live in either lifestyle, after 10 years , I feel the FDLS should not be considered as isolated (except again for the very few extremists) or as limiting to women as the Gothard/ATI/QF/Duggar church of the basement is.

I will most likely watch the new baby episode. I do feel like the Duggars orginal reasons for being on tv of showing encouragement, and explaining their message has been lost in endless trips on the hockey bus. I also feel like TLC knows cute kids sell when the focus of the show show be more on JB & M , their beliefs, and how THEY raise thier children.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Kat: What an interesting compare/contrast between FDLS and the super-conservatives like the Duggars.

I'd not thought separately about the isolation factor. Thanks for giving me an interesting point to ponder.

Wouldn't it be interesting to learn JB's opinion of FDLS? Something tells me that even though FDLS is on JB's end of the conservative spectrum, JB would still disallow his children from any real interaction with FDLS kids and be prone to lump FDLS members into the same nasty pile as all the rest of us who are non- super conservative.

I'm guessing that in JB's mind, we'd all fall into the same heaping, steaming pile labeled 'sinners' and 'occasions of sin'.

But then again, JB seems to be a BIG TIME proponent of maintaining his reign as The Big Kahuna or otherwise biblically known as 'The PATRIARCH" and he seems to like his women subservient, so..... hmmm... interesting to think about.

Ollie said...

I suspect JB spends more on hairspray in a week than is spent on vegetables - and I don't remember seeing any of the family sit down to read a book for pleasure.
****************************************************
None of the Duggars appear to be grossly overweight, which could be in part just good genetics but also points to the fact that they must be eating somewhat decent food. I honestly don't think their diet is any different than most Americans, which is far from healthy but I don't think they should get special criticism for it. They probably don't eat as many vegetables as they should and eat way too much processed food, but I'm betting most people reading this blog do as well.
As for the reading, watching people read to themselves just doesn't make interesting TV so I doubt they would show it. That being said, I agree the Duggars are not the most educated or intellectual people on the planet. From what little we've seen of their homeschooling I doubt Michelle is able to provide much education beyond the very basics, and even that she sometimes messes up (at least we know she has problems with the concept of perpendicular lines). There are of course ways a parent can provide a child with instruction beyond their own knowledge, but it is usually expensive or requires you to allow your child out into the world. The Duggars do link on their website to BJU distance learning, which provides some of the best Christian distance learning video classes out there. so presumably the older children might take some courses through that which would help them gain high school level skills. I think it's sad that none of the kids as of yet seems to be interested in being educated above the level of their parents, especially since neither Jim Bob or Michelle has any advanced education (beyond the minimal training required to sell real estate and insurance). To me Jim Bob and Michelle seem under educated and lacking in analytical abilities, I certainly wouldn't want either one to be in charge of educating a high school student.

OneTuneOnly said...

Anonymous 01/22 at 11:45----Well said. I could not agree more. It IS mind boggling, the ignorance. Nor do I see what there is to "inspire" or admire.
And YES she does exactly that: "garners attention by being perpetually pregnant." If someone uses the term "addicted to pregnancy", I fully agree because that is another way to put that!
It makes one wonder (a thinking one , that is) just "what" Michelle will "Do" when she canNOT bear any more progeny. SInce she has shown NO propensity to any other activities , either intellectual or physical (other than intercourse). Of course, MOST marriages are strong enough to enjoy sexual activities despite no longer being fertile...but I legitimatly wonder whether Boob and Jichelle will be able to do that. IE: do they have anything ELSE other than when's the NEXT baby.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Ollie, I agree with you: I wouldn't want Mrs. D teaching my kids anything higher than preK or, on a good day, maybe K. IF we can believe what we see on their show (??), Mrs. D seems to be a sweet natured woman, but not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

Re: the camera watching someone reading not qualifying as entertaining tv, somehow the Jill Gets Her Wisdom Teeth Pulled doesn't either. (& I have to wonder how much REAL choice that poor kid had in sharing this experience with a tv audience).

@One Tune Only: I wonder about women who are of the Quiverful mindset. I love kids. I really do. But 19 kids?? A little overkill perhaps? What is that really about?

But I guess if you have bought into your husband being The Patriarch, you look for a niche for yourself, and popping out annual bambinos seems to work for some. (But after menopause, while your hubby-do is still, & will always remain, The Lord & Master, where are you and your niche?)

It angers me that, when pitching to a female audience, TLC chooses the likes of K8 Gosselin and Michelle Duggar as supposed role models. What an absolute insult on both counts. Both of these women are one dimensional and, therefore, an unfair and negative portrayal of our gender.

Midnight Serenade said...

"These poor children may meet the legal criteria of being "home schooled", but it's obvious to anyone paying attention that no adult in the house is capable of teaching them what the average child is expected to know by the time they graduate from high school."

----------------

But does it really matter to them? They will have all of the "basics" needed for whatever they are going to do...housewives and mothers for the females, manual laborers/blue collar workers for the males. That's their destiny, and that's what the cards hold for them. They are caught in the world created by their parents.

The Amish and Mennonites have been home-schooling like this for centuries and it works for them. They have no need for anything beyond an 8th grade education. That's the life they want to live, and it would appear to hold true for the Duggars.

anotherRN said...

The Amish and Mennonites have been home-schooling like this for centuries and it works for them. They have no need for anything beyond an 8th grade education. That's the life they want to live, and it would appear to hold true for the Duggars.

********************************

I live just outside of Amish country in PA and there are many Mennonites of different shades there also. They have schools, but some are specific to their enclave. We took care of some of the patients in the Nickel Mines tragedy, for those that remember. That was an Amish school. I have gone to school with many mainstream Mennonites. Some were very conservative, others were more laid back.

I will say this, I have taken care of these isolated groups for years. I do my best to be open minded, and some of the people are truly terrific. All seem to be very hard working. They sell their wares and services to the outside community, so they need some outside skills. That being said, many of the women are miserable, hostile, judgmental people. The men are notoriously miserly, to the point that most "mainstream" people call them greedy "moneynites". I am not impressed by these cultures, their alleged piety, and the way they treat their children. Many parents signed their children out against medical advice when the kids were seriously ill. Children's Hospital of Phila sees many from these sects because of the high incidence of genetic disorders (hint).

The reason I bring this up is because I see many parallels between the Duggars and these cultures. It may seem wonderful in the outside, but I don't buy it. I have seen a lot of horror due to extremely controlling lifestyles. It doesn't have to be religion. If there was a father who was as fanatical about sports as JB is with his faith, I venture to guess that the outrage would be huge. Control is control, whether it's religious, academic, work, sports, ethnic, etc. Every parent has a right to educate their child in the way that they feel supports the family's values, but where is the line drawn of the education is inadequate. Chances are, at least one of the Duggar kids is above average intellectually. Poor thing, life must be miserable!

Anonymous said...

Both of these women are one dimensional and, therefore, an unfair and negative portrayal of our gender.
_____________________________________________________________

Why would anyone look to TV and/or TLC for their role models?

That having been said, many women may identify with both of those women. Obviously they do on some levels because they both certainly have fans.

Why deny the women who identify with MD and KG the opportunity to identify with what they see?

Anonymous said...

IE: do they have anything ELSE other than when's the NEXT baby.
********************************************************************

Whatever they are doing, it's working, as they are still married and %50 of couple who married in the US are now divorced.

Anonymous said...

"JB would still disallow his children from any real interaction with FDLS kids and be prone to lump FDLS members into the same nasty pile as all the rest of us who are non- super conservative."


Seeing as how the FLDS are completely non-christian and preach that marrying underage girls is just fine and peachy, even if you already have a wife, I reckon that JimBob and the majority of Americans wouldn't want their innocent children exposed to THAT.

mary margaret said...

Well, I went to one of those high priced "liberal" (never thought of it political terms, always in terms of brightening my mind and experiences) colleges. My parents didn't send me there, I chose to go.


While both my husband and I have similar degrees, we never once thought to homeschool our children. The best we found was sending them to school to let the mathematics major teach math, the english major teach english, etc.

Kudos to the poster upthread, I agree, that Michelles educational/homeschool plan is appropriate for PreK, after that it seems that they go to computers. My kids loved discussions and debates from a real life person when learning, whether they agreed or not. It's sad to see this many children only learning the very basics.

Jane in California said...

Anonymous said:
... owever, the littles are passed along to the older children so that Michelle can continue her preoccupation with garnering attention by being perpetually pregnant, while the older children are forced into virtual slavery.
That they've been trained to believe they actually enjoy some of their parenting and housecleaning duties is only further evidence of the indoctrination that's taken the place of their education.

I think the situation these children live in is one of the worst things I've ever seen. I can't fathom why some people see it any of it as admirable or even acceptable.
* * *

While I don't agree that the Duggar kids are living in anything close to the worst situation I've seen or heard of for other children, I do agree that the older ones (mostly the girls really) are not much more than indentured servants.

I wonder how many of those who sing the praises of the Duggars would like to trade places, indefinitely, with one of the older girls. How would they like doing the cooking, the cleaning, and the child rearing of someone else's children, while watching Michelle and JB stroll hand in hand blithely along?

Which of us would like to trade places with the girls who had the dental work done? Or think of something that scares you, that you have to face, but this time, on camera ? I would hate having that "choice" imposed on me, and having the meekly accept it as my duty. Bad enough to endure something painful or embarrassing just in front of your family, but it must be much worse when done with a camera in your face, a film crew asking to repeat a shot from a different angle, knowing that strangers will be watching this later for their viewing pleasure.

What this show has done for me is serve to emphasize that in conservative religions, the man is considered superior and the woman is valued mostly for her fertility. The female children are indoctrinated from a very young age that they are on this earth to serve, not to have ambition beyond bringing up your younger siblings, then marriage, lots of child bearing, and if you're lucky -- you can eventually turn over the hard work to your own daughters. I'm not sure why that's considered so admirable by some.

I am grateful to have been exposed to a much more inclusive sort of religious and family upbringing, where my mom was considered an equal partner to my dad. They each had a role, but they were a team, they made decisions together and neither of my parents abdicated the raising of any of us to older siblings.

Anonymous said...

It certainly is true that certain groups of people do not seem to need or want education past an 8th grade level, like some of these Quiverful families or Amish. It's a shame though, to deny ones children an education. However, their lives of popping out dozens of kids and doing blue collar work seems to be enough for them.

Can't See Sheep said...

Anonymous said...

IE: do they have anything ELSE other than when's the NEXT baby.
********************************************************************

Whatever they are doing, it's working, as they are still married and %50 of couple who married in the US are now divorced.
--------------------

Well, unless it's the husband who wants a divorce, it's not likely they'll end up divorced & considering he's lord & master why would he want one.

Can't See Sheep said...

Midnight Serenade said...
The Amish and Mennonites have been home-schooling like this for centuries and it works for them. They have no need for anything beyond an 8th grade education. That's the life they want to live, and it would appear to hold true for the Duggars.
------------------------

It works for the Mennonites because they set up entire communities wherever they go, you rarely have just one in an area. Do the Duggars have the same where they are?

Amanda said...

My kids loved discussions and debates from a real life person when learning, whether they agreed or not. It's sad to see this many children only learning the very basics.
---------------------------------

It seems as though they are not teaching their kids to discuss or debate. It is very unfair to the children not to give them a chance to express themselves and learn WHY they do the things they do. (We wear pants because there is a verse in the Bible, not because mom and dad say so) Even if the kids were given the chance to read the Bible and figure it out for themselves.

Eventually one of the kids will *gasp* rebel and learn to think on their own. Maybe one of the boys will lead a coup!! Or one of the girls will be the ones to say "Set my people free"

I was 40 before I learned that it was ok to think on my own. I learned that I didn't have to agree with EVERYTHING the preacher preached or the teacher taught. I am much happier now

Ohio Buckeye said...

Another RN and Jane in CA: Well said!

".. It opened up my eyes to all of the beautiful people from around the world and all walks of life. I never felt tempted to stray from my values. In fact, I developed a deeper appreciation for myself as an individual and my purpose in life. I realized that we all have gifts and contributions to make in order to make the world better. Religion and strict rules had NOTHING to do with it.

The whole liberal vs. conservative argument is just nonsensical. It is an over-generalization used to make fearful people isolate themselves and justify being judgmental.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

One other point: some seem to think that a lower divorce rate (than in 'sinner world') is proof this lifestyle 'works'. Go deeper: define 'works'. Maybe 'works' really means that on just about every level, females are indoctrinated to believe they are morally bound to stay in even bad marriages and/or remaining married and 'cared for' (like a child) is their only hope of survival in the world.

Fear and guilt seem to be the roadmaps to this mindset. So sad.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Anonymous said, "... many women may identify with both of those women. Obviously they do on some levels because they both certainly have fans.

Why deny the women who identify with MD and KG the opportunity to identify with what they see?

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Even convicted murderers have 'fans'. Reportedly the likes of Scott Peterson gets lots of fan mail. Not sure 'having fans' validates anyone or anyone's lifestyle.

Can't See Sheep said...

Ohio Buckeye said...
Even convicted murderers have 'fans'. Reportedly the likes of Scott Peterson gets lots of fan mail. Not sure 'having fans' validates anyone or anyone's lifestyle.
----------------------

Exactly Ohio Buckeye, look at all the people who followed Jim Jones & drank his kool aid, just because someone has a following doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Anonymous said...

Do you think it is odd that all these large families preach against abortion- but they go for many ultrasounds. I haven't seen one child with Down syndrome or any kind of birth defect. They are very lucky or not telling the truth.

Nikolita said...

The only reality shows with kids that I watch on TLC are the ones about medical mysteries or medical issues (progeria, etc), for the sake of education and learning, nothing else.

Cyn said...

Re Dental:

Airing the bloody teeth was a bit much and really did NOT need to be aired.

But airing the episode that showed both girls were nervous, up to even terrified for one of the girls showed me personally a lot of things:

1) JimBob loves his girls, he was there for them, comforting, and being the shoulder to lean on. He is showing Dads a way to be there for their children. The fact that when they were scared they wanted their DAD shows me there is a trust between them that is missing for a lot of fathers and daughters.

2) The girls showed that even if you are scared or worried, bringing some one with you can help you get through it.

3) The girls also showed that what they thought was going to be earth shattering, wasn't that bad after it was over and done. (There are people older than those girls that are more afraid of a dentist)

4) We saw how the younger kids wanted to help out their big sisters because they care about each other.

Now granted the girls would probably have been happier with OUT the bouncing smaller kids, but the girls graciously understood the younger kids wanted to 'help' the big sister. How many families can say there teenagers are that nice to their younger siblings? Normal day to day... maybe... but when they are sick? In pain? How nice are they to 'pesky' younger siblings?

Kat said...

"That's their destiny, and that's what the cards hold for them. They are caught in the world created by their parents."

It's NOT their destiny, although it will take significant strength and bravery to step away from that world, as it is their "cocoon." We ALL get to CHOOSE who we will be as adults, no matter what our parents taught us as children. They simply have to believe that they have that choice, and be strong enough to make it when it goes counter to their upbringing.

If the show has had ANY benefit (other than monetary) to the children, it is that the children have had the opportunity to see and meet a wider swath of people. Hopefully, this exposure will help them "un-demonize" at least some of the people who don't share their parents' values and beliefs, but manage to be good, moral people who live decent, fulfilling lives nevertheless. Perhaps this will make it easier for some of the children to pursue a life that is outside the bounds of their parents' narrow vision of the world.

I do wonder, though, how JB and Michelle will react. Will they shun the children who choose to go a different way? Or will they accept them, like they accept Amy?

Ohio Buckeye said...

Kat said, "...If the show has had ANY benefit (other than monetary) to the children, it is that the children have had the opportunity to see and meet a wider swath of people. Hopefully, this exposure will help them "un-demonize" at least some of the people who don't share their parents' values and beliefs, but manage to be good, moral people who live decent, fulfilling lives nevertheless. Perhaps this will make it easier for some of the children to pursue a life that is outside the bounds of their parents' narrow vision of the world."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

APPLAUSE, Kat! Especially the part about undemonizing, lump sum, everyone living in 'sinner world'.

Well said!

Prospector Sam said...

I agree with posters that state that the Duggar's homeschooling is completely inadequate for the real world. I found the comment that Mennonites do the same thing and have no need for education beyond 8th grade to be particularly interesting. My own mom is from a strict Mennonite sect and, along with her 13 siblings, was pulled from school after grade 8. However, her father passed away shortly after and her mother immediately joined a much more liberal church and allowed the younger ones to finish school and go to college if they wished (although it was a huge challenge for them to do so due to the family's poverty). This divided the family into 2 distinct groups, the half that came of age under the father's rules (all housewives or poorly paid laborers, big families) and the half of the siblings that were allowed education (all educated, good careers, although some sisters chose to stay home after marriage, small families). All 14 siblings have kept many of their parent's values and are good, law abiding people, but the difference in their lives is CHOICE! The older ones had none mainly because of an education their father deemed "good enough for the life he expected them to lead". And, incidently, the only 2 divorces amongst the 14 are in the older group, along with a couple cousins who've been in trouble with the law and 2 suicides.
If your values are really that strong, they can survive exposure to education, religious differences, debates and new ideas. There's nothing wrong with not having higher education, doing poorly paid work or concentrating on raising a family, but only if its your CHOICE to do it! Leaving a child with an education that takes away their choice is selfish and wrong.

Midwest Mom said...

Re: the Dental episode where Jill was crying in fear before getting her wisdom teeth pulled.

It showed me:

1) That JimBob cares more about making a buck than his daughter's private moments or he would never have allowed it to be filmed.

2) That Jill had no say-so whatsoever in whether or not she was filmed since she was under the age of 18 at the time. As usual, she had to go-along with whatever JimBob said. She's not allowed to have her own opinions or thoughts.

The exploitation of those children, no matter how "nice" or "encouraging" the Duggars want to portray themselves, is sickening to me.

Anonymous said...

I found Jill's reaction so disturbing. First filming that was to me just wrong. I didn't need to see anyone waiting for or having their wisdom teeth out. Went there with all my children and would not have allowed any of them to be filmed. Second, I must be blessed because none of my children have acted like that at the dentist since they were about six years old. If nothing else, that showed me how stunted the Duggar kids are emotionally. Yes, my kids were nervous before oral surgery, but weren't sobbing basket cases clinging to someone like a little kid would.

Jane in California said...

Ohio Buckeye:

One other point: some seem to think that a lower divorce rate (than in 'sinner world') is proof this lifestyle 'works'.
* * *

Just because a husband and wife remain married does not mean the marriage is a success or even a true marriage in but the most technical sense. I have a sister who happens to be of very conservative religious beliefs. She and her husband are married, but he had an affair, left the home, then returned when the new woman found someone else. They "patched" things up. Patched is the right word, because it was bailing out water with a coffee can from a sinking ship.

He's on affair #2, but my sis isn't divorcing him yet. So they're still married, but what's the point?

So I take those claims of how people are more likely to stay married if they are part of a certain faith or religion with a grain of salt. How much stigma will be imposed on a wife who leaves an unhappy marriage? Usually she'll be blamed for not making it work. Sometimes, it means not only leaving a bad marriage, but your church family as well. Most who are unhappy just put up with it the best they can.

Jane in California said...

Re the original thought - do the Duggars dance to TLC's tune? I think the answer is clearly yes.

I tuned in for just part of an episode today - it was the one where they visited a farm in Oklahoma City. They appeared to have the farm to themselves that day -- of course that makes it easier for filming, but is this reality? Of course it isn't. When you or I take our family on an outing, how many times will the location shut down just for us? Once again, Duggars living in a careful cocoon, separate from the rest.

As to the visit itself, seemed like a nice place to visit. However, I cringed a bit for the older kids having to take a ride in the somewhat babyish train. They were good sports about it though. Where I really cringed was when they showed Jim Bob and Michele mashed together into the lead car. Honestly, are they so afraid that people might forget they are husband and wife, that they must be joined constantly at the hip and filmed kissing all the time? You are on a family outing for goodness sake, how about you each take one of the youngest children in a separate car? Help out the older girls who have the lions share of child watching duties.

I come from a large family and I really don't recall my parents ever behaving in such a way on any family outing. With plenty of little ones, they split up the supervisory duties - my dad kept an eye on some, my mom kept an eye on the others. There was no public smooching and my mom sitting on my dad's lap. (And might I add - thank goodness for that! It is neither modest nor appropriate to behave like high schoolers in public once you are no longer in high school.)

One wonders if the producers encourage this sort of thing and JB and M go along with it, as they are naturally inclined to push/promote that their marriage is "sooooooooooo happy."

Finally, I do not agree with having/making the little children sit and talk to the camera people. They are really too young to be required to do such a thing, and they are clearly coached in how they should respond.

Of particular note, I found it interesting that the camera person first asked Michele if they make time to spend with each child one-on-one during the day. She claimed that they worked to make that happen, but stopped short of saying it actually did occur on a daily basis.

Then they asked several of the children, who all used the exact phrasing, "one-on-one time." Interesting. Talking points anyone?

Anonymous said...

These children will all be adults in 2028. I don't think being homeschooled by Mom and computers is enough. My 18 year old is helping my 15 year old study for trigonometry as I type this. I will encourage them both to complete university. (The oldest is studying engineering at university) You should educate your children to stand on your shoulders. I want them ready for the future. How can the Duggars look at all their children and think they are preparing them for the future? Didn't Jim Bob and Michelle attend high school? Why can't they get an education beyond Michelle?

SkinDeep said...

Michelle D. and other women TLC chooses to portray are among the last "role models" I would want, for myself or my daughters.
To the OP mentioning that some of the kids may be strong enough to choose to "leave" (gasp!): if so, what tools have they been given to do so? Bingo! Few to none. Ie: lacking education. Is there an agenda to that? Decide for yourself.
Lacking in knowledge of other peoples/the world. Sometimes the Unknown is: feared. Hence decreasing the chances that any of them would explore leaving. Change is difficult; staying the same--Easy.
And I do NOT consider Josh to have "left." He just moved houses. Same life, except now he has a "partner." I dont' see him as all that independent in general, truth be told. Certainly not as smart, and I would NOT hire him to do any "website setups" or whatever he does. For one thing, he has shown ON HIS SITE, his lack of knowledge of grammar and spelling.
I don't think any of them are particularly smart, and YES, the kids are "beautiful" but how shallow is that? That that is mentioned SO frequently "Well the Duggars have BEAUTIFUL kids" as if that is all that matters! Beauty and youth fade, (so does fertility), and THEN WHAT?
A bunch of insidiously boring people.

kels said...

cyn said
"But airing the episode that showed both girls were nervous, up to even terrified for one of the girls showed me personally a lot of things:

1) JimBob loves his girls, he was there for them, comforting, and being the shoulder to lean on."
**************************

So you're saying that since we all witnessed a loving side to Jim Bob through this episode, it makes it OK that his terrified daughter was exploited in the name of money?


My point is that there is no rosy way to paint this picture. It was not right to film Jill's panic attack in the dental office. How could it possibly be ok to "encourage other families" at Jill's expense?

Ollie said...

And I do NOT consider Josh to have "left." He just moved houses. Same life, except now he has a "partner." I dont' see him as all that independent in general, truth be told. Certainly not as smart, and I would NOT hire him to do any "website setups" or whatever he does. For one thing, he has shown ON HIS SITE, his lack of knowledge of grammar and spelling.
***************************************************
I'd have to agree about this, for someone who claims to do website design as a business his own website is not very impressive. I also don't know why anyone with any sense would hire him to do political consulting, which according to his website is another business he runs. Seriously, if I found out that a candidate was paying a 21 year old with a GED for advice on how to get elected I'd vote for the other guy, at least he/she isn't throwing their money away on unqualified advice. What possible contribution could Josh have to give to a political campaign, other than his experience as the son of a two term state level representative?
As for Josh's car lot, I think that he probably does minimal business there and counts on TLC for most of his income. I basis this on the hours the car lot is shown to be open, 10-6 M-F, closed Saturday. My uncle owned a used car lot for over twenty-five years and it seemed to be a lot of hard work, so I do applaud Josh for trying. However, to make a decent living in that industry he would have to be open on Saturday and probably a little later in the evening. Not surprisingly many of the people who purchase used cars are employed themselves so you need to be open when they can come to the dealership, which is usually not during normal business hours. I'm sure Josh is probably a really nice, honest guy, but something about him just rubs me the wrong way and I probably wouldn't buy a car from him. John-David, on the other hand, seemed like a really sweet boy when he was working at the car lot after Josh's daughter was born, I think he'd make a really good low-pressure salesman. Maybe he should run the car lot and Josh could tow....

Amanda said...

It is amazing to me that the Duggars don't seem to want their kids to do better than them. My parents pushed my brothers and sister and me to do better than them. Dad went to High School. Mom got her GED the year before my oldest brother graduated High School. They instilled in us a strong work ethic that we all applied not only in our jobs but in college. I heard more than once..if you want to dig ditches i don't care but be the best ditch digger there is.

They taught us to appreciate all people. To accept all people. We were encouraged to think for ourselves, to express our views. By no means were we disrespectful but we were allowed to ask why. We learned that is was okay to disagree with each other. We have all been married for many years (I'm the youngest and I've been married 15 years) I believe one reason is that my parents taught us to disagree and reason and think on our own. I love my husband but am not dependent on him.

They trusted us..none of us had curfews but they always knew where we were and who we were with and what we were doing. They were more understanding if we were up front with them.

I don't see the Duggars doing this. I don't see them encouraging the kids to do better then them, I don't see them encouraging free thinking, the kids aren't allowed to be by themselves. Where is the trust? Where is the encouragement to be the best at whatever they want to be.

Let Josh fall a little so he can learn to get up on his on and go to Anna for support instead of Mom and Dad.

They are doing their kids a HUGE disservice by not letting them be who the kids are but forcing them to be who JB and M want them to be.

I know this is long and I am not as articulate as some posters. Thank you

mary margaret said...

Only families dancing to the tlc tune would have suggested that their late teen sons or daughters ride a little train, meant for those under the age of 6.Tose big kids looked ridiculous and embarrsed to be riding a kiddie ride meant for the 6 and under crowd. forget the wooden spoon and blanket training, there is no way in heaven that any regular parent could talk an 18 year old into doing this.

Maybe 10 years from now we'll still see TLC infantalizing these young women.. 29 years old and riding a little train meant for 6 year olds.... how strange.

BobS said...

Kat said...
It's NOT their destiny, although it will take significant strength and bravery to step away from that world, as it is their "cocoon." We ALL get to CHOOSE who we will be as adults, no matter what our parents taught us as children. They simply have to believe that they have that choice, and be strong enough to make it when it goes counter to their upbringing.
-------------------------------

But what a difficult choice they would have to make: your life *or* your family. If a Duggar child makes the "wrong" choice, the "love" will be shut off until they conform to JB's patriarchal wishes. It would take a strong individual to choose their own life's direction and thus lose their family. It is a shame that the love is conditional as long as the child conforms, even into adulthood.

My wife is from a religion where anyone who decides to leave is shunned, even by their own family. As a child, she was discouraged from associating with "worldly" kids. This religion also strongly discourages going to college and even using the Internet for the fear of being exposed to apostate ideas. Children are encouraged to get enough education to make a living and do door-to-door service. Here too, the "love" is conditional as long as you conform.

Anonymous said...

I don't see the Duggars as being so rigid that they would cut off a child who didn't conform to their strict interpretation. Their parents and siblings didn't or don't and they freely associate with them. They have friends from church who aren't nearly as conservative. Anna has sisters who have chosen a less confined lifestyle and they are still accepted. I think the Duggars would pray for the child but still accept them.

Marybeth said...

Are you all aware that once the little ones are past the kindergarten/small grades, they move to on-line school? A curriculum they purchase? So in a sense, Michelle isn't their teacher? There seems to be quite a bit of Michelle bashing going on when you don't seem to have all the facts. You're comparing them to Amish when the Amish don't use on-line schools.
I belong to a similar belief-system of the Jewish religion, we're Chassidic, also very modest, the father is the leader of the home and the wife follows his direction. The children are homeschooled and then sent to Hebrew boarding schools. We also use on-line schools and the curriculum is fantastic. Much the same as the ones the Duggars use, only substitute "Jewish" for "Christian" and our families would be identical. I only wish I'd had more kids. My Rabbi is the oldest of 14 and my Rabbi's wife is the youngest of 16--they have 8.

The kids grow up to be quite well educated...lawyers, accountants, doctors and we are FAR MORE ISOLATING than the Duggars are. My rabbi's kids aren't allowed to speak to non-Jewish kids--the Duggar kids speak to non-Christians all the time, that's part of being a Christian, part of who Christ was.

Bell, Southern said...

<If a Duggar child makes the "wrong" choice, the "love" will be shut off until they conform to JB's patriarchal wishes.

I believe that is totally incorrect and just another example of people assuming something about the Duggars and stating it as fact, when it is not.

The Duggars have family members (in fact most of them) who do not follow the Duggars conservative Baptist beliefs. But the Duggars still love them and fellowship with them. A prime example is Cousin Amy. It's well known that she drinks and wears revealing clothing and dates around. But no one would ever be able to say that the Duggars have rejected her. It's quite the opposite, they obviously love her very much and she is a part of their family.

Kara said...

I just saw on the bottom homepage of Josh and Anna's website www.ja20.com that they are speaking at a marriage conference in February. They have only been married a little over a year and have a baby and a business! I wonder if this will be a new episode in the future... I really hope Josh isn't going to support his family on public appearances.

Celestie said...

What I see with the Duggars homeschooling and others like them, is the "uneducated" attempting to teach their children. Yes, they are doing some by computer, but as we have seen, they have not learned grammar. We can only imagine what they are being taught, (or not) in history, science, math and lit. It is the dumbing down of a whole demography of kids, by being slightly educated by uneducated parents.
I know of some homeschool kids who are extremely accomplished, but they have motivated and taught by intelligent parents, who want their children to achieve. The Jewish poster who mentioned their children go on to achieve, is quite different. They want their children to be doctors and lawyers. The Duggars clearly do not want their children to be truly educated or achieve. Keep 'em barefoot, pregnant and dumb. Then the order will be in place for the patriarch to remain in control.

Anonymous said...

Is is juat me or is it ironic that the retreat is set at a place that is based on a 1800's old west town...

Katydid

Hannah W. said...

Only families dancing to the tlc tune would have suggested that their late teen sons or daughters ride a little train, meant for those under the age of 6.Tose big kids looked ridiculous and embarrsed to be riding a kiddie ride meant for the 6 and under crowd. forget the wooden spoon and blanket training, there is no way in heaven that any regular parent could talk an 18 year old into doing this.

Maybe 10 years from now we'll still see TLC infantalizing these young women.. 29 years old and riding a little train meant for 6 year olds.... how strange.

-----------------------------------

Weren't they each partnered up with a younger child though?

-----------------------------------

One thing I find different about the Duggars as opposed to the Gosselins is that they don't come out and deny that they're getting freebies. It honestly doesn't really bother me that these families get free stuff, what bothers me is when they pretend they pay for it all *cough*jonandkate*cough*

Bell, Southern said...

What I see with the Duggars homeschooling and others like them, is the "uneducated" attempting to teach their children.

That would be true IF the font of information was JimBob or Michelle, but it isn't.

You can view the scope and sequence for the trig elective from the curriculum the Duggars use at this link.

BobS said...

Bell, Southern said...
If a Duggar child makes the "wrong" choice, the "love" will be shut off until they conform to JB's patriarchal wishes.

I believe that is totally incorrect and just another example of people assuming something about the Duggars and stating it as fact, when it is not.
-----------------------------------

What I stated was my opinion based upon what I have seen on the show and my life experience. I do not have inside facts on the Duggars. I see that JB is in control and he runs his family in his subtle way. I see parallels with my FIL from what I have seen and what my wife has described from when she grew up. She moved 650 miles to get away from his control. My in-laws did not attend our wedding and did not find out until after the fact. She risked losing her family by living her life the way she wanted and marrying me. Fortunately she didn't lose her family.

I think JB will tolerate more from the relatives outside the immediate family. I don't think he would tolerate cousin Amy's behavior from any of his daughters. I do think TLC likes Amy because she adds some color to the show.

Anonymous said...

Re: Do you think it is odd that all these large families preach against abortion- but they go for many ultrasounds. I haven't seen one child with Down syndrome or any kind of birth defect. They are very lucky or not telling the truth.

JB said in their book that Josiah was born with a minor birth defect (easily corrected with surgery),but he didn't say what it was.

They sell the kids on tv,but not as much in the book.

Bell, Southern said...

What I stated was my opinion based upon what I have seen on the show and my life experience.

I can't address whatever happened in your own family. I don't know what religion your wife was or anything else about your situation. But while I'm sorry your personally situation wasn't a pleasant one, I don't see as how it has any bearing whatsoever on what the Duggars do or will do. I also don't see as how your personal situation gives you the authority to state as fact that you know what JimBob would do.

Because as difficult as your personal situation may me (or was) it is not a fortunetelling device for the Duggar family.
They Duggars have already proven that they do not shun anyone. In fact, they embrace people that are different than they are, just like Amy.

I'm not here to deny that your personal situation caused you some grief at some point. I'm sure it did and I'm sorry for your pain. But that has nothing at all to do with the Duggars and if you'll forgive me for saying so, your situation is not a barometer for future actions of the Duggars, if you get what I mean.

Midwest Mom said...

Kara said, (of Josh): " I really hope Josh isn't going to support his family on public appearances."

----

The car lot is not doing well, by his own admission.

How else is he going to support his wife and daughter?

Oh wait a minute, I forgot ! He supports them by having their private lives filmed by TLC !

I often wonder how Anna's parents feel about that...knowing that their daughter is married to an uneducated man who can *barely* make a "living" (if you want to call it that).

Midnight Serenade said...

"It works for the Mennonites because they set up entire communities wherever they go, you rarely have just one in an area. Do the Duggars have the same where they are?"

----------------

My point is that the reason it works for the Plain Sect is that they have no need for a college education because most of them are content to carry on with the "business" of their parents -- farmers and homemakers. It doesn't matter if they are in groups or alone. I would think the same would be true of the Duggars because regardless if they are a commune or a single family, their aspiration in life is to raise a family and be blue-collar works, just like their parents. They have been told that family and religion are what matters most -- not high-paying, high-profile jobs.

my three sons said...

Not all conservative Christians believe or practice such a legalistic lifestyle. I would hope that as long as the children keep their core beliefs, JB and Michelle would be happy with their children's individual decisions as to whether they follow in their parents' footsteps or chose a freer lifestyle.
Although I would like to give the Duggars the benefit of the doubt, I'm afraid the truth is that the kids aren't encouraged to prepare themselves for higher education. That being said, many people don't go to college right out of high school and others who already have a degree go back to persue other majors later in life. Even if the Duggars would need to take remedial type classes to catch up, if one has the desire, he/she can still succeed. More than likely the older ones will conform to their parents' belief system at the onset, as we have seen with Josh, but when you see that Anna's family has "diversified", it's not a stretch to think that they may not be as firmly set on the whole lifestyle that JB & M have chosen for their family,and I think the younger ones may be the more likely to venture out on a new course as they "age out".

Cyn said...

Re: Anna's Parents and Josh

His education level, and way of supporting his bride and future children would have been discussed at some point or another and or several times.

1) Before asking the Father to court the daughter.
2) During the courting stage
3) During the getting to know you stage.

Anna's parents 'agreed' to the courtship, and the rest with more knowledge about Josh's finances than WE ever will ever have. They would have also discussed his education level and what Josh was planning to do with his life.

I would go so far out on a limb to think Anna's father would have discussed Josh's life plans... in finances, how Josh was going to treat his daughter, children (how many, how are you going to raise them)....

It's the GOOD parts of "courting" and "patriarchal" fathers they go at it in a rather serious manner.

They discuss with bluntness things most young couples don't discuss till AFTER the marriage. This is a life contract they "canNOT" break they cover things that would be in marriage counseling and more. But in the end it's left up to the COUPLE, they can take the advice or not.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Mr. Keller asked Josh if the birth his first child was going to be shown on national television.

I bet Mr. Keller wouldn't have dared even have such an immodest thought roll around his head!

SO even these patriarchal families can't possibly predict a marriage. I'll bet this one is a far cry from what Anna's parents had anticipated for their daughter.

Celestie said...

That would be true IF the font of information was JimBob or Michelle, but it isn't.

You can view the scope and sequence for the trig elective from the curriculum the Duggars use at this link.

JB and M are still choosing the curriculum, are they not? We can see by their lack of good grammar ,and grasp of the English language, they are not learning English. Perhaps the writers of the homeschool programs, are not educators themselves. Grammar is simple, there are rules. If you learn those rules, in most cases, you will speak correctly. Aren't there tests as they go along in the studies?

Celestie said...

They have been told that family and religion are what matters most -- not high-paying, high-profile jobs.

-----
Not all educated or talented or dedicated people have high-paying, high profile jobs. But many of us have very satisfying jobs. Think the elementary school orchestra teacher, getting children started in the world of music. Think of most teachers, not high paying or high profile. Think of over worked social workers, or those who work with people with disabilities, think of nurses, think of dancers in the corps of the ballet, think of software designers, or small business owners, or people who bring special skills to a lab that is developing new cures. They are small cogs in a wheel. Or post doctorates, who research for years for very little pay. I could go on and on. These are educated people who go to work each day, making it better for all of us. They are not sitting at home taking care of their little brothers and sisters, because their parents won't or can't.
If someone has the ability to seek higher education they should be able to. If someone has the ability to succeed using a talent or a skill, they should be able to be trained in that skill.

Married Catholic said...

Blunt discussions between engaged couples regarding their life plans and finances are things NOT UNIQUE to couples who "court" each other.

For example, the Catholic church requires multiple discussions, over many, many sessions and months, both with a priest and with a team of other married couples during PreCana classes. Trust me, these discussions are as blunt as you can imagine.

Oh, and for the record, Catholics also believe the marriage bond is un-breakable. That's not unique to Anna & Josh.

Anna & Josh are no more prepared for marriage than "most other young couples" just because Josh "discussed" it with Anna's parents.

It's one thing to discuss your life plans, it's quite another to put a plan into action. I've yet to see Josh put forth a workable plan for a dependable income other than filming his bride and daughter for TLC.

Cyn said...

If someone has the ability to seek higher education they should be able to. If someone has the ability to succeed using a talent or a skill, they should be able to be trained in that skill.
************************************
And what the DUGGARS have said is AVAILABLE to their children, and for all we know they could be doing just what you mentioned.

The Duggars promote shadowing people in their chosen profession, to see if that's what they want to do... Do we know the kids aren't?

A few episodes back people were wondering where one of the older girls were...

They already school on-line for High School and lower do we KNOW they aren't taking college classes from home?

All we do KNOW is they haven't told us LATELY what the older ones were into.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@ Celestie: EXCELLENT points! Applause!

Higher education/white collar jobs and family/ethics as top priorities are not mutually exclusive realities.

Cyn said...

I didn't say that process was unique I said those were the POSITIVE sides of courting. I didn't say anything Josh and Anna had done was unique... what I said was they did NOT go into it blind and neither did the Kellers.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Cyn: JMO, but if a couple contemplating marriage lacks the maturity to address major marital/life issues and goals between the two of them without The Patriarch's intervention, perhaps they are not yet ready for such an adult undertaking as marriage.

Anonymous said...

Kara said...
I just saw on the bottom homepage of Josh and Anna's website www.ja20.com that they are speaking at a marriage conference in February. They have only been married a little over a year


This just makes me cringe. They have no business telling anyone else how to make a marriage work - they don't have enough experience at marriage to tell anyone else how to do it. Right now they need to be focused on developing their own marriage, not other people's. Where is their Christian humility? Even if someone else came to them and asked them to do it, they could have turned it down.

I've only been married for 2 and a half years. My husband and I have a great marriage, but I would never give someone marital advice at this point in my life. I might direct them to someone who COULD give them good marital advice, like my parents, who have been happily married for 35 years and been through many hardships, including the loss of a child, one of the most difficult things any couple can experience. But that's just not my place at this point.

Chris said...

The Bates announced #18 is on the way after Kelly almost died after #17(which was born only about 6 months ago), so I bet Michelle won't let Josie situation stop her for going for #20!

Anonymous said...

Posted by Cyn: "I would go so far out on a limb to think Anna's father would have discussed Josh's life plans... children (how many, how are you going to raise them)....".

-------

Why would it be any of Mr. Keller's business how many children his daughter & son-in-law are planning on having ?

Midwest Mom said...

Re: the older children..."All we do KNOW is they haven't told us LATELY what the older ones were into."


Well, maybe because there are a limited number of ways to say, "cooking, cleaning, changing diapers".

Anon 3:14 said...

Exactly how "in-depth" could a pre-marriage conversation between Josh & Anna have been been? I thought they were never allowed to be alone together before the wedding.

I'm having a hard time picturing Josh & Anna talking about sex in front of a chaperone.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Chris said, "The Bates announced #18 is on the way after Kelly almost died after #17(which was born only about 6 months ago), so I bet Michelle won't let Josie situation stop her for going for #20!"

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

JMO: seems completely irresponsible to make this kind of decision, if not for the planet, then certainly for the fetus.

"Leaving it up to god" to decide whether or not to continue conceiving long past common sense tied to maternal age seems less than an ethical assumption of responsibility for one's own life and that of subsequent babies. Not sure it's all that fair/ethical (IMO) to risk long term/permanent poor health outcomes/disabilities and hide behind 'god decided'.

There's good reason for puppy mills being illegal due to the unfairness to the female and to her often-sickly offspring after years of unbridled breeding.

Cyn said...

Why would it be any of Mr. Keller's business how many children his daughter & son-in-law are planning on having ?

Bad wording on my part... I should have said do they plan on letting God be in control of that area. The father is transferring spiritual headship to the son-in-law. The father would want to know what the spiritual beliefs of the son-in-law are in relation to theirs. Did he ask for a number exactly... I doubt it and didn't mean to make it look that way... but he would have asked about the new son's religious convictions, and "blessings from God" qualify under that heading.

Cyn said...

misconception about the chaperons... The chaperons didn't sit BETWEEN the couple or hang on to their arms. They can be having a private conversation in the living room while the kids are playing at the other end of the house. They talked on the phone and I think emailed each other if not wrote letters (I can't honestly remember which they did)

They took walks where the chaperons were 5-10 ft from them... as long as they could be SEEN it's fine. Josh and Anna visited each others houses before the marriage. There were times and places to have the conversations.

Talking about the act itself would not have happened till AFTER the wedding if then LOL, and not what I was referring to at all in any of my posts.

Cyn said...

Not sure it's all that fair/ethical (IMO) to risk long term/permanent poor health outcomes/disabilities and hide behind 'god decided'.

Ohio I have a question for you since you brought it up... What does it mean "hide behind God decided"?

I have seen that thought or statement on other blogs and other commentary but I have never understood it...

Where do the Duggars 'Hide' any part of their religion or their belief that GOD is in control? If God allows something to happen either good OR bad where is the hiding... it simply IS or is NOT up to God... And they think it IS completely up to Him..

Jane in California said...

While I feel it's a shame that the Duggar children are not encouraged to pursue higher education, or even some sort of trade school -- that's the lifestyle they were born into and most of them will probably stick with it. It seems limiting to me because I grew up with parents who wanted us to explore our options and expected us to study in the areas that appealed to us. They wanted us to go to college (and 6 out of 8 of us did), but mostly they wanted for us to find our passion in life, and pursue it.

My greatest sympathy goes toward the daughters -- because it seems so Victorian. Their lives are very limiting, their goals are shaped for them, and much of their future is pre-determined by their parents. The boys will have a slightly wider perspective and the opportunity, with their limited education, to seek jobs or businesses by which they can earn some sort of income.

What they will soon discover is that public interest is a fickle thing. Soon the viability of a television show featuring any of this family will fade away, as something or someone new comes along that generates more interest and viewership. Josh better be stockpiling the money he's making off his wife and baby now, because he's not used to living off the income of a sluggish used car lot.

Nancy said...

Please accept my apology if I offend anyone but really just reading about how the patriarchal system of "courting" works, and probably worked for Josh and Anna makes me quite queasy. One of our sons is of a similar age and the thought of my husband, or my son's girlfriend's Dad being that intrusive is dreadful. Plus - how do they even guarantee that they will really live the exact way they promised the father. For heaven's sake - I got married a Catholic, even promised in front of the Church all kinds of things and a few years ago became agnostic. Something I could NEVER have predicted. Thank goodness my husband doesn't care one bit but I wouldn't have been lying back when I was 19 when I said I planned to remain a steadfast Catholic forever.

Are they certain that the boys/girls won't change because they keep them so removed from ideas and people different from them? Yes, I know they went to El Salvador - let's be honest - they went there to evangelize. Not to learn from those people. I give them all credit for doing service work but it's NOT the same as having a close friend who is different and really exploring different ideas. And no, I'm not talking about letting the little Duggars and Duggarettes hang out with drug dealers or criminals.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Cyn: "Ohio I have a question for you since you brought it up... What does it mean "hide behind God decided"?

I have seen that thought or statement on other blogs and other commentary but I have never understood it...
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Hey, Cyn, I have no wish to offend you, so I hope I word this in a nonoffensive way. If I stumble with my words, please know I do not mean to insult you or your beliefs.

I think, maybe we just have a different perspective on life when it comes to god's deciding everything for us.

Here goes: don't know what the other blogs meant when they said it, but what I mean is that IMO being ethical includes taking responsibility for one's life and one's decisions. For example, if I choose to continue smoking while I'm pregnant, it's unfair (IMO) for me to assume my baby being born low birthweight and with health problems was god's choice for me. I feel my decision to risk my baby's health outcomes by going against medical advice by continuing to smoke is what put my baby at risk - not god's decision to send me a sick child to love and care for.

Just as I personally believe in being responsible for choosing wisely about something like smoking during pregnancy, I also believe it's incumbent upon humans to make informed and well-thought-out choices in their lives in all other areas.

JMO, it's less than responsible to continue tempting fate going against all medical/scientific data, by continuing to pump out a baby year after year for 20 years.

So, what I mean by 'hiding behind god's will,' I mean refusing to take responsibility for an important decision like this and telling self it's god's will, rather than YOUR decision not to heed to common sense and expert medical opinion.

Saw lots of preemies in my day and felt sorry for each and every one of them as they struggleld for every breath and lived to be stuck multiple times/day for blood work that helped keep them alive. As a mom, JMO, I feel it's my responsibility to do all I can to diminish the odds of allowing this to happen to my baby.

Being willing to take incredible risks (like producing annual babies for 20 yrs), then blaming the predicted outcome on 'god's decision' just does not make sense to me personally. It just makes more sense to me that god would expect humans to use their intellect rather than expect god to do all the work and decision making.

But to each, their own.

Does this help?

Bell, Southern said...

JB and M are still choosing the curriculum, are they not?

The scope and sequence is available for you to peruse if you do desire to see what the Duggar kids are learning. THe fact remains that the fount of information is not Michelle or JimBob.

Cyn said...

@ohio: To a degree yes.

Michelle's OBGYN though said after she gave birth to either 17 or 18 (I don't remember which... "Michelle was just built to have babies" Which I took to mean she didn't have a problem with Michelle's multiple pregnancy's. The answer was in response to a question on the amount of pregnancies Michelle has had.

On a regular basis no I don't think it's a healthy idea to have baby after baby as Michelle has done. But until this last child nothing had happened and we do not KNOW if her doctor told her to stop having them (there for acting against medical advice). We do not know Michelle's medical history, other than what they have provided for us. MOST women should not do this. But some can and do, AND live to tell about it clear up into their 80's and 90's.

Common sense though is different, that's based on what is COMMON to you, and people around you. (not you personally) And around them and people they know turning their lives over to GOD, and giving control of their lives to God in EVERY area is what makes sense to them...

It's the "hiding" part I think I have the issue with, they aren't hiding behind God, they LEAN on God to get them through what ever the situation is.

It's not as though they are blaming God... they may ask why God?, but it will then become ok God you gave this to us now we will TRUST you to bring us through it.

Anonymous said...

As a mom, JMO, I feel it's my responsibility to do all I can to diminish the odds of allowing this to happen to my baby.
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Since this has only happened to ONE of the Duggar kids, I'd say the odds are certainly in Michelle's favor, wouldn't you?

Anonymous said...

JMO, it's less than responsible to continue tempting fate going against all medical/scientific data, by continuing to pump out a baby year after year for 20 years.

Michelle's doctor said she was in great shape to have children.

Celestie said...

Bell, Southern said...
JB and M are still choosing the curriculum, are they not?

The scope and sequence is available for you to peruse if you do desire to see what the Duggar kids are learning.
----
My point was they are not learning correctly, if we can believe what we see and hear

Celestie said...

It just makes more sense to me that god would expect humans to use their intellect rather than expect god to do all the work and decision making.

__

Well said, Ohio Buckeye. It is not unlike driving through a hurricane, then saying it was god's will, that they were blown about.

Chris said...

I believe Michelle's had to shop for a dr. to say she was "fine" to have more kids. They admitted that had to "find" Dr. Saver because they had been turned down by other doctors.
I would guess that most doctors espcially after Josie/pre-eclampsia would not say Michelle was fine to have more kids. The risk of the next pregnancy has to be much greater for complications.

I had full blown pre-eclampsia with baby #1 and as much as DH and I would have loved a second child I decided I would not risk the chances on having number #2 because of of the struggles of my recovery and the struggles of a premmie. Four years later we adopted number #2.

Anonymous said...

There's an old parable in my former religious circle: There is a hurricane on its way and the town has been advised to evacuate. One man tells his neighbor, "God will save me; I prayed to him and it is his will." The neighbor evacuates. The man is in his home as the flood waters rise and the Coast Guard shows up with their boats. "Come on sir, you must go." "No, no" the man says, "God will save me, I am leaving my life to him." The man has now moved to his roof. A helicopter comes and waves him towards the basket. The man shakes his head and says, "no, no, God will save me." The man drowns and goes to heaven. He says to God, "why didn't you save me, I prayed to you." God says, "I DID save you, I sent you a warning on TV, I sent your neighbor to you, I sent the boats and I sent the helicopters. You didn't hear me."

Perhaps Jim Bob and Michelle aren't hearing the message. JMO.

Red Line said...

Ok people keep bringing up the point that Michelle's doctor said she was built to have babies. I am sure her OB/GYN is very smart.. she seems wonderful. But she is just ONE person..One doctor. Don't we all get "second opinions" when we want to be absolutely sure of our health? I really can't imagine many doctors would be in support of Michelle's decision. Just because we know of one doctor in support of Michelle does not mean that her decisions are medically sound.

We all know that JB and Michelle recently switched to Dr Sarver because their old doctor would not agree to another VBAC. That's proof that there are other well-educated doctors that very much disagree with this situation.

Red Line said...

Ohio Buckeye said.. "For example, if I choose to continue smoking while I'm pregnant, it's unfair (IMO) for me to assume my baby being born low birthweight and with health problems was god's choice for me."

That's a great point.

I very much believe in God and God's will.. but I also believe God gave humans free will for a reason. We are not God's puppets! We control our outcomes because we have the power to make choices.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, the Monsignor tells that story every couple of years to remind the congregation of that very thing. We pray to know God's will but when the answer is already in front of us from the good sense He gave us, the Bible, or good counsel; it would be foolish not to pay attention to it. We do indeed have free will and that includes taking or not taking responsibility for our own decisions.

doggie said...

the whole idea of Using god as birth control is a bit crazy. I mean look at his track record in the area. how many Christians loose their children in 3rd world countries because they are not allowed to use birth control? Did not the Duggers visit such people? when god lets a 9 year old catholic girl become pregnant with twins from her step farther how can anyone say god practices birth control.
it's like trusting the town drunk with you booze collection.

Anonymous said...

To me the concept that God will open or close the womb makes as much sense as saying I can eat cheeseburgers every day and God will keep my arteries clear or not depending on if or when He wants me to die of a heart attack.

I'm also becoming convinced that while in the early years I think they may have truly been in theory leaving it up to God but now are deliberately trying to conceive. Timing events to make conception more likely when you have 16, 17, 18 children is more like taunting God, IMO. I'm sure others will disagree, but how many women who breastfeed for even a few months conceive this rapidly in their 40s?

Cyn said...

Michelle has said from day one of TV that breast feeding was NOT a working form of "birth control" that breast feeding never seemed to slow the fertility process at all, for HER.

Ohio Buckeye said...

"Built to have babies" means only that the pelvic outlet is wide enough to accommodate the head of a good sized baby - a large diagonal conjugate. That's all.

So, Mrs. D has a skeletal construct that includes a wide pelvic outlet - big deal. This does not mean she (and her fetuses) are somehow protected against all the other factors that conspire to create unhealthy pregancies, labors, deliveries, and saddest of all, sick and/or permanently disabled babies. Especially when the Ds continue, against all common sense and medical data, to tempt fate with perpetual pregnancies.

nccalgal said...

Where did you hear that Kelly Bates nearly died with her last delivery? Her last delivery was part of one of the episodes and there was no indication that there had been complications. The reason the doctor wanted her to deliver at the hospital was the recents miscarriages, and they also showed the baby when she was a few months old without mentioning any threats to Kelly's well-being or health. Just curious where this info came from.

Nancy said...

I truly wish I could better understand the concept that God controls the outcomes of the baby making process (and I assume everything? I guess I don't know if He just controls babies or also other things).

Thanks to all of you for your explanations. Do you (and presumably the Duggars) believe that things like all the babies dying in Haiti are controlled by God - meaning He decided to do that to them specifically? And if so, what is the goal? To make them stronger? To punish them?

Does he control whether people are drug addicts? And then control giving said drug addicts babies that they subsequently don't take care of? Or does he only control the baby making for fundamentalist Christians like the Duggars?

I am sincerely interested as this doesn't make sense to me at all. It makes God seem so cruel and arbitrary.

Jane in California said...

Anonymous said...

There's an old parable in my former religious circle: There is a hurricane on its way and the town has been advised to evacuate. One man tells his neighbor, "God will save me; I prayed to him and it is his will
* * *
*smile*

My Catholic father tells a parable very similar to this one. Common sense is also a gift. Sometimes, when we are very passionate or fervent about something, we can get caught up in that emotion and ignore common sense because it's too mundane and boring.

I think JB and Michelle are very genuine in their faith, but I also think that being on television, being recognized and well known for their large and ever growing family, has caused them to start believing their own hype.

They are no more special than anyone else. While a woman can certainly have lots of children, one body is not designed to pump out baby after baby, until menopause. Pregnancy and childbirth do indeed put stress and wear and tear on a body -- any body, even if that body belongs to Michelle Duggar.

I wish they exhibited a bit more common sense and humility. Be thankful for the large brood you already have, and put your focus on raising them. Let the older girls have a chance to breath a bit, take back at least some of your own responsibility off their shoulders. Focus on your newest addition who will likely need much of your time and attention. Let go of any prideful thoughts you may have, some sort of goal for number of children you want to bear, because that's not doing God's will, that's doing your will in the face of the common sense God gave you.

Curious said...

The odds of becoming pregnant diminish with age. This is a medical fact (and easy to research online for anyone that questions that fact).

Women are most fertile in their early 20s and it declines (slowly) from then on.

By age 40, a woman has approximately a 5% chance of becoming pregnant. By age 43, that chance drops to between 1% and 2%.

The risks also go up. Miscarriages occur approximately 34% of the time from ages 40-44. At 45, the rate goes up to 53%.

The risks of high blood pressure, diabetes and genetic issues also rise with age.

Given the odds of becoming pregnant after 40, it seems to be that there must be some active "trying" going on for her to consistently get pregnant every year.

Anonymous said...

We know they are "trying" to get pregnant, since even the girls are aware of Michelle's cycles, posted on the fridge (there is an ewww in there). This isn't up to God---there is much planning going on to make sure that Michelle keeps popping out kids.

Tillie Marie said...

I think Curious' comment should be clarified. At 40 a woman's chance of becoming pregnant is 5% per month. That is down from 20 to 25% per month in the 20s. But it is not a 5% overall chance of pregnancy occurring. The miscarriage rate at 40 is 33% and rises each year until it's over 50% at age 45. At 45 the chance of conceiving unaided is around 1% and then combine that with the over 50% miscarriage rate and the chances of a successful pregnancy are very slim.

The live birth rate per thousand for women over 45 is around .5. A lot of those are IVF babies using donor eggs. If Michelle can get to 45 without killing herself trying for number 20, there is a great chance nature will take care of the problem.

Tillie Marie said...

I agree that with those odds, there is planned trying to conceive going on.

Curious said...

Tillie Marie said: I think Curious' comment should be clarified. At 40 a woman's chance of becoming pregnant is 5% per month.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is correct. Sorry, I missed that in my proofreading. It drops to 1-2%/month at 43.

Anonymous said...

I, like many, believe that children are the ulitmate gift from God. That being said, I also believe in free will - the ability to make decisions. Whether that be an informed education decision or a random 'hope everything works out' decision. I think we are given thinking brains for a reason. I know they love all of their children, but in comparison to how other parents raise their children and perhaps JB and Michelle's own childhoods - I can't believe they can't see how much better off the children would be if actually raised by the parents. IMO, JB and Michelle are the assembly line for the babies, but the older siblings raise them. JB and Michelle may not feel like they are missing out, but all of the kids sure are. It's hard to raise children and if the older kids are doing the raising they should have a part in the decision to have more. I know they would all say 'whoo hoo more kids' I doubt that all of them would mean it. They kind of have to say that.

Snap! said...

I'm the youngest of a large family. The issue is not how many children Michelle can have, it is how much attention the children get from their parents. It seems to me that Michelle was close the older ones- up to Ginger. From Joseph down we rarely see much interaction between the children and their parents. The buddies take care of this bunch. I have noticed that Michelle and Jim Bob enjoy the 3 younger girls- especially Johannah. I bet we will see rebellion in the group from Jackson to Joseph. Michelle will be busy training the younger girls to take over the housework from the older girls as they get married and leave home. Little Josie might have issues to deal with. The middle group will never have all the attention and some will rebel. We already see how Joy Anna seems less conservative then her older sisters. Time will tell.

my three sons said...

I don't think anyone espouses the idea that God should control everyone's procreation. One basic tenent of Christian faith is that we acknowledge our total dependence on God to provide all that we need; therefore, when one takes "control" of the number of "blessings", they are not allow God to "do his thing". Most couples that I know who subscribe to this and don't use artificial means of birth control don't "try" to get pregnant either. That's what I believe the Duggars are doing, which to me is just the same as when a couple deliberately tries not to get pregnant. In both instances you're not leaving it up to God to "bless".

Ollie said...

Where did anyone ever say that Michelle's cycle was posted on the fridge? I recall her saying that her girls know when she's menstruating, but I assumed she meant because they clean the bathroom and such so would know when/if she was using any products.

If they are purposely trying to get pregnant, than wouldn't that go against the whole "leaving it in God's hands" thing? I read somewhere that Quiverfull people don't use natural family planning because they believe that even to abstain from sex with the purpose of trying to avoid a pregnancy would be to monkey with God's plan. I would assume that purposely having relations on a woman's most fertile days would also be considered trying to influence God's will? Or is that alright since they believe God wants them to have lots of children?

Have the Duggars ever addressed how they feel about people outside their movement having large families? I mean if a Muslim couple has 20 children who are all devout followers of Islam are those children still considered a blessing even though they don't spread the gospel? Would they only be a blessing if they converted to the Duggars brand of Christianity? The stated goal of the Quiverfull movement is to repopulate the planet with Christians, they actually have calculations that show how many generations of over-breeding it will take before they can outnumber all the unbelievers. I just wonder why the Duggars don't address these issues...

Cyn said...

The Duggars HAVE addressed these issues over and over again. ALL children are a blessing from God.

And they don't think EVERYONE should have 17,18,19 kids just that it was what they felt God wanted THEM PERSONALLY to do.

They have also said repeatedly they are NOT Quiverful, (trying to make as many soldiers for God as can be birthed) They only part that connects them to the 'movement' is the fact that the Duggars ALSO think "children are a blessing from God"

Celestie said...

One or more of those kids are going to break out and realize there is a lot more to life than child care. Hope we get to see it. I hope they have been secretly preparing themselves for life on the outside. Their limited education will work against their eventual success.

Also, regarding Cousin Amy. I think she has been the victim of some charlatans pretending to be her on face book and on blogs. It seems to me, she is a nice young woman, who just doesn't participate in the ridged mind control of the Jim Bobs. I hate to see her being unfairly bashed, by saying she drinks, takes drugs and is a wild woman.

Anonymous said...

"Where did anyone ever say that Michelle's cycle was posted on the fridge? "

Michelle said the girls "watch the calendar like hawks" on an interview on "The View".

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"Chris has left a new comment on the post "Duggars Dance to the TLC Tune?":

I believe Michelle's had to shop for a dr. to say she was "fine" to have more kids. They admitted that had to "find" Dr. Saver because they had been turned down by other doctors"

They did not shop around to find a doctor to say it was "fine" to have more kids. She was looking for one that would allow her to have natural birth after having a few c sections. Some doctors will direct you to have more c sections than necessary after having one or more. That was what she was looking for. It had nothing to do with the amount of children but the issue was about c sections.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Cyn said, "They have also said repeatedly they are NOT Quiverful, (trying to make as many soldiers for God as can be birthed) They only part that connects them to the 'movement' is the fact that the Duggars ALSO think "children are a blessing from God"

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Cyn, this is not aimed at you personally, but here's my opinion on the D's and Quiverful, for whatever it may be worth:

I think it would be fair to also add that, in addition to sharing the 'children are a blessing from god' with the Quiverful folk, that JB&D also believe in abdicating their own responsibility and leaving it instead, to god. They may not have Quiverful membership cards, but they certainly have chosen to live Quiverful.

BTW, lots of us consider 'children to be a blessing from god,' but the difference between us and the Duggars (and Quiverful) is that we assume responsibility for deciding for ourselves how many children we can give a fair amount of love and support and time. We don't ask god to take that responsibility on - we figure we are supposed to act like adults with brains and make adult decisions like how many children to bring into our lives and our planet.

We do not see god as a JimBob, who insists on totally controlling us however 'fatherly' the style may be, as if we need an eternal daddy.

Instead, we figure we have a purpose in this life and are expected to use the absolutely unique set of brains and talents in creative ways to make some contributions in this world.

To live our lives conversely, that is, by conducting our lives like obedient, nonthinking children, seems to us to be wasting the talents and brains and lives we were given.

Just another point of view. Again: to each, their own.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Ollie said, "Have the Duggars ever addressed how they feel about people outside their movement having large families? I mean if a Muslim couple has 20 children who are all devout followers of Islam are those children still considered a blessing even though they don't spread the gospel? Would they only be a blessing if they converted to the Duggars brand of Christianity? The stated goal of the Quiverfull movement is to repopulate the planet with Christians, they actually have calculations that show how many generations of over-breeding it will take before they can outnumber all the unbelievers. I just wonder why the Duggars don't address these issues..."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

What a very excellent question!

Mine is less about what the D's think (because I believe some vague, non answe and relatively PC response will be all that is offered by the D's especially while under contract to TLC), but for the Quiverful and other groups who seem to have zero respect for any religious beliefs but their own, one does wonder how 'welcoming' and respectful these folks would be if an equally radical NONChristian cult moved in next door and set up a baby-making compound?

Things that make a person go, 'hmmmmm......'

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Nancy, Don't know if this will help answer your questions or not, but am willing to give it a try. I hope it is helpful in some some way.

Many will disagree with me. Let me start there. Some find it bordering on heresy what I am about to say, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, and in time, after soul searching, hopefully, you'll find your own perspective on most religious (and life) issues.

Working as an RN was a real wake up call to me, personally, because I was forced to ponder why the baby in warmer A got prayed over and died, while baby in warmer B made it. Or vice versa. Doesn't matter. I was unable to reconcile that a god who had the ability to spare one precious innocent life could do so for one, but not the one next to it.

The old platitudes I was taught as a child simply did not measure up or even BEGIN to answer some of life's most painful situations.

I can't bear to think of a god who punishes and/or 'tests' people. I personally expect more honorable behavior from humans, so how is it possible that god can behave SUBhumanly with 'tests' and punishment?

After much reading and soul searching, my take is that lots of things in life are simply random. The good. The bad. I do not conceive of a god who has the ability to ease or prevent pain but does not. No platitude about 'we don't know god's plan/design for us' makes any sense at all when you see the incredible pain and sorrow many people experience on their road of life.

I'm not saying there is not a god. What I am saying is that it really doesn't matter to me personally, because I'm dedicated to living my life in a way that seeks to help and comfort - not to earn my spot in heaven, but simply because I just cannot help wanting to use whatever I have to bring whatever peace I can to those whose path I cross.

I personally believe it's up to me to make the best of any situation that befalls me - to work hard to find something positive, if nothing else, to simply model decent and honorable behavior under fire so that maybe one or two others may see that they, too, can take the high road even when under incredible stress and pain.

I don't look to cure cancer. End world hunger. Bring world peace. But I do hope to be a peace-maker to the teeny tiny little circle of people that compose my few years on this planet.

That is my 'religion'. For good or for bad. I just want to use my life in whatever small ways I can find to be of help to those who need it. Amen.

And to you, Nancy, I hope you find your answers and that they bring you peace.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@Nancy, Don't know if this will help answer your questions or not, but am willing to give it a try. I hope it is helpful in some some way.

Many will disagree with me. Let me start there. Some find it bordering on heresy what I am about to say, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, and in time, after soul searching, hopefully, you'll find your own perspective on most religious (and life) issues.

Working as an RN was a real wake up call to me, personally, because I was forced to ponder why the baby in warmer A got prayed over and died, while baby in warmer B made it. Or vice versa. Doesn't matter. I was unable to reconcile that a god who had the ability to spare one precious innocent life could do so for one, but not the one next to it.

The old platitudes I was taught as a child simply did not measure up or even BEGIN to answer some of life's most painful situations.

I can't bear to think of a god who punishes and/or 'tests' people. I personally expect more honorable behavior from humans, so how is it possible that god can behave SUBhumanly with 'tests' and punishment?

After much reading and soul searching, my take is that lots of things in life are simply random. The good. The bad. I do not conceive of a god who has the ability to ease or prevent pain but does not. No platitude about 'we don't know god's plan/design for us' makes any sense at all when you see the incredible pain and sorrow many people experience on their road of life.

I'm not saying there is not a god. What I am saying is that it really doesn't matter to me personally, because I'm dedicated to living my life in a way that seeks to help and comfort - not to earn my spot in heaven, but simply because I just cannot help wanting to use whatever I have to bring whatever peace I can to those whose path I cross.

I personally believe it's up to me to make the best of any situation that befalls me - to work hard to find something positive, if nothing else, to simply model decent and honorable behavior under fire so that maybe one or two others may see that they, too, can take the high road even when under incredible stress and pain.

I don't look to cure cancer. End world hunger. Bring world peace. But I do hope to be a peace-maker to the teeny tiny little circle of people that compose my few years on this planet.

That is my 'religion'. For good or for bad. I just want to use my life in whatever small ways I can find to be of help to those who need it. Amen.

And to you, Nancy, I hope you find your answers and that they bring you peace.

Nancy said...

Ohio - thank you so much for the very thoughtful response. I believe that you and I have come to very similar conclusions through our spiritual journies. I continue to ask these questions of folks like the Duggars (and the kind posters on this board with similar beliefs) because I, as a former Catholic am often plagued with doubts about whether my faith just wasn't enough and that is why I question vs. believing blindly. I often wonder if they ask them of themselves or each other. And if they do, what do they answer. To me it is very complex and I have come to believe that God (assuming that there is one) was probably more of a creator and is not actively pulling the strings in every life on earth. Otherwise I could not bear the thought that he could hear a child praying for her life and not answer. I guess I just wonder if the Duggars ever ask themselves these questions (for instance when they saw starving babies in El Salvador) or are they so insular that they really think only of how it impacts them.

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