Tues, March 9, 2010, Josie Duggar's First Hug

The Duggars adjust to life in Little Rock getting back to their school work. The kids explain how they deal with homeschooling while away from home. And, watch the emotional moment when Michelle is able to hold little Josie for the first time.

30 minutes

191 comments:

Ohio Buckeye said...

JMO, A preemie's struggle and 'first hug' is inappropriate fodder for TLC to splice together another one of their 'compelling' epi$ode$.

Poor Josie. Like the other freak show TLC family kids, she has no voice in the matter. Shame on her righteous parents for putting her in this position.

This is NOT inspiring nor 'encouraging'. It is simple exploitation and IMO it's not at all WJWD.

Anonymous said...

Poor Baby. Get those cameras out of her face and allow her the privacy and dignity that a micropreemie, indeed any child, deserves.

Anonymous said...

In all respect I disagree. I think that Michelle holding baby Josie for the first time is inspiring, especially to others who have tiny micropreemies in NICU. It offers hope. It is also an education to the general public watching the show to see what it is really like to have a baby in NICU and follow the ups and downs of their life. I think that if Josie were to see this footage when she is older it will show her not only how tiny she was, but how much she is loved. As one blogger put it, the expression on Michelle's face was priceless and reminded her of that wonderful day when she first held her micropreemie.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Sad to think that anyone would need nationally televised footage of a tacky 'reality' show showing them at their most vulnerable and pathetic to see 'how much she is loved'. I'm not buying it. Everyone is, of course, free to have her own opinion.

IMO,the Duggars can officially knock off their holier-than-thou schtick and instead hang their heads in shame. They and their show are beyond tacky. They and their alleged lifestyle fall so immeasurably short on so many tangible and intangible levels.

Enough Already said...

The kids are going to explain how they do homeschooling while away from home ? (per the episode description).

They probably do their math homework while sliding down those stairs in the rental house.

Cyn said...

This is going to be one of those episodes I really really wish I could see when it first comes out instead of having to wait weeks or months to see...

Kelly said...

I don't know. If, God willing, little Josie survives and thrives, one day she could look at that footage of her time in the NICU and think, "OMG, I can't believe my parents allowed that! Why would they allow cameras next to my isolette, filming nurses putting in my feeding tube? Why would they allow the whole world to see me looking so vulnerable and sick?" Somhow, I don't think she would be raving about the way she was shown, naked, skinny and sick, to the world.

I sure wouldn't be happy about the footage on TV if I were a preemie, and I would never do that to one of my kids, had I had a preemie.

Anonymous said...

I have found TLC's coverage of baby Josie very tasteful and sweet. That baby is in no way being harmed. The way Josie was sucking away on that pacifier last week was a great sign that she is doing very well and will be breast feeding soon if she isn't already.

The Duggars know that some people won't like Josie being on the show while others enjoy seeing her progress. I for one enjoy seeing Josie growing each week. "A person's a person no matter how small." Dr. Seuss. She is not a freak in a freak show!

I like the Duggars said...

"The kids are going to explain how they do homeschooling while away from home ? (per the episode description).

They probably do their math homework while sliding down those stairs in the rental house."

Yep, they could count the stairs as they go down, or time each child and plot it on a graph, or make a probability chart showing how many times a child is likely to slide down the stairs before hurting himself / herself... homeschooling, now we're getting the hang of it!

I like the Duggars (otherwise known as "I LOVED our homeschooling days!")

; )

heavennoseven said...

i hope they show more of the younger kids that home school. do they do stuff at grade level?

Anonymous said...

I think it would be good for Josie to see just how tiny she was and how her parents reacted to hee etc, but that is what home videos are for. She may like seeing it but at the same time not like having the whole world see it as well.

babysteps said...

I think James up through Jinger do a computer curriculum. The others do workbooks and coloring sheets. In the commercial they show Johannah watching something on the computer with Jordyn in her lap.

What I would really like to see is the little kids doing some arts and crafts, playdough, painting, math manipulatives, puzzles, etc. All that wonderful hands-on learning that they should be doing to keep busy instead of running wild during school hours.

Anne said...

My DD was born early and spent 3 week in the NICU. She is now 7 and does not watch much tv (by her choice, she is already a bookworm!) but she was very excited to see what the NICU and a tiny baby looked like. I paused the episodes and answered her many questions. The NICU DD was in was ultra strict about pictures and vistors so I have no pictures of DD in the NICU.
As much as I disagree with alot of Duggar choices, I know there is some good coming out of having poor Josie shown. Compared to the medical shows that have shown NICU/premmies the Duggars show has been less scary IMO for my 7 year old to watch with me.

My poor DD had to get blood drawn for the first time last week. She was very scared and not going to try until she remembered Jim Bob giving blood. Suddenly she put her arm out and said I'm going to get it on the first try! and she did. She walked around the hospital saying "I am braver then a 44 year old man that has 19 kids", they got my blood on the first try. I(as well as the nurses) would like to thank Jim Bob for being such a whimp! So again a little good does come out of these shows!

Ohio Buckeye said...

The Duggars know that some people won't like Josie being on the show while others enjoy seeing her progress. I for one enjoy seeing Josie growing each week. "A person's a person no matter how small." Dr. Seuss. She is not a freak in a freak show!
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And that is exactly the point: perhaps the kinder approach would be to protect Josie's privacy RATHER THAN pander to a very public audience who has no real right nor need to peek at Josie as the poor child struggles for every breath.

I wish the Duggars would aim higher in their ethics. Stop worrying about long skirts and hair, normal dancing, mini mart sales and, instead, PROTECT their kids' privacy. IMO, this would be far more honorable.

Tess said...

Ohio Buckeye,

That is exactly it. I just read the title of show (I don't watch) and was sickened. As if that is for public consumption. And, the issue IS that the baby/kids can not consent to the whoing of hteir real life and stuggles - while everyone else makes money off of it. Just so beyond wrong.

Anonymous said...

I believe all the younger Duggar kids have been shown playing with coloring books, crayons, playdoh, and some crafts in the many episodes that have been shown on television.

The girls and the boys play with scooters, bikes, skates, balls, trucks, and the big trapoline that I remember outside.

To say the kids dont play with toys is wrong.

Midwest Mom said...

I hope the schooling portion shows a little bit more than the "educational" trip to the Biltmore Mansion, i.e. "shapes and colors".

I can't wait, though, to see more of that James' schooling, i.e. repetitive arguing from James about whether or not he actually has schoolwork to do.

B said...

@Kris: I agree it's a little irksome when Michelle leaves the room while Josie has painful things done to her. I mean she was the one who decided to "leave it up to God" and enter into a high risk pregnancy despite the warnings from her doctor and look what happened. Having faith in God isn't an excuse to indulge in stupid behavior and practices. That poor baby could face a lifetime of chronic illness and recurring problems all because of her parents ridiculous beliefs. I'm sure once the novelty wears off Josie will be dumped on Jana or Jill just like Jennifer and Jordan. And how much do want to bet they'll go for number 20?

In regards to the homeschooling, if you really want to call what they do schooling, we'll have to see if they actually do any work or if sliding down stairs is what consists of most of their day.

Ohio Buckeye said...

"... Michelle couldn't stand to be in the room while her tiny baby was put through painful procedures.

This alone has sickened me towards Michelle. If your baby is in pain you be there for them, if only to whisper soft words to them. Leaving the room because it is "too much" makes me angry for poor little Josie."

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The more I learn about this family, the less I think of them and their concept of morality.

I find it VERY disappointing that a parent would put her own discomfort above being there for whatever shred of tiny comfort she may give to her struggling child.

Additionally, true kindness and compassion would seem to lead in a direction of erring on the side of refusing to put any additional fetuses at risk for suffering a similar outcome. Time for the sign to go up: "No Room at the Womb". With this woman's age and medical history, nothing less measures up ethically IMO.

Anonymous said...

As a pediatric nurse I can assure you that it is better for Michelle to leave the room for a few minutes rather than have her own stress transmitted to her infant. It is very common for parents to do this and make the nurses job much easier as they can focus on the baby, not the upset parent.

Ancient of Days said...

I have the feeling that the baby-holding episode will be more along the lines of "Look at the sainted mother holding her child," than "Look at the recovering baby being held by her mother."

It seems to be more about Michelle's role than it does about Josie's reality. That woman is going to have a major letdown once she loses her maternal (and I use that word loosely) identity.

I truly don't like to speak ill of anyone, but I think Michelle's self-centeredness is inconscionable, and her children will eventually suffer for not having had time, just time, with her.

Anna said...

I think maybe we need to quit hoping that there will be anything more shown about homeschooling or that their homeschooling would ever be more challenging or appropriate. It's not going to happen. They learn out of workbooks and off a computer, the end.

As for Josie, as someone else said, she will know she is loved no matter whether her face is all over national television or not.

The Duggar kids are treated as a collective, I realize, but kids are different and there are kids and adults who feel pretty strongly about their privacy. If there are Duggar kids like that, they don't seem to have any choice in the matter. I know my 15 year old daughter is a fiercely private person and has been since she could talk. She'd not want to be on TV in a million years. Even when she became a cheerleader, she didn't want that sign that so many parents have in the front yard with the kid's name and school on it. She's *that* protective of her privacy.

Out of 19 kids, surely they have at least one or two who feel that way.

Too bad for them.

A NICU mother said...

Actually, my son was in the NICU for a short amount of time, and I was told by the nurses that they were going to do something painful and I should leave. You know what I did. I hate to tell you but until you've been in that position you shouldn't judge. It is not just giving a shot - many of the procedures are tough and painful. Also, Michelle just stepped back if I remember correctly and she said she would walk away and cry and then come back. While I don't agree with everything they do, I understand why she does what she does in this position. And even though I always go to all of my son's dr. appts., etc. I have plenty of friends who leave the rooms during shots, etc. And they're perfectly good mothers.

nccalgal said...

The holding of Josie I would find touching if if were not for the fact that Michelle couldn't stand to be in the room while her tiny baby was put through painful procedures.
As the mother of two children who had chronic medical problems, I can tell you that there are times when it all becomes too overwhelming and you have to leave just to get your equalibrium back. Since I have missed the last few episodes, I don't know exactly what the circumstances were for her to leave, but she's been at the hospital for weeks on end; that takes a physical as well as emotional toll on you. I'd cut her some slack.

Captain Tucker said...

For some procedures, it is probably wise to leave the room. You can't get really close to the baby during the procedure anyway. I'm gonna say that unless you've had a child in that situation, you really don't know what you would do. I'll cut Michelle some slack. Her instict is to hold and protect Josie but she can't.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone really think that being filmed will have a negative effect on Josie? I for one think that if anything she will be glad to be able to look back and see how she progressed. Yes, some could say that it should only be filmed for their private use, not for the world to see. But I don't think she will be upset or traumatized by it when she gets older. She is not being shown naked, as some people have said. Correct me if I'm wrong, but anytime I've seen her she always has at least a diaper on.

As far as the boys beds, I have one son who is now 19, and it is and always has been impossible to keep sheets on his bed properly. I've always asked him who in the world he's fighting or wrestling with in his dreams, his bed is a wreck every morning. I think boys just tend to be more restless and rough in their sleep than girls. For all we know the boys start out with properly made beds at night and by morning the fitted sheet is on the floor and the blankets are bunched up at the end of the bed.

One more thing, as far as Michelle having to leave the room, I'm not sure what procedure the one poster was referring to, but she did not leave the room while the feeding tube was put in, she was sitting away from the nurses and praying and she was very upset that her daughter was going through that. And as soon as they were done she was right there, whispering to her how much she loved her and how sorry she was for what she had to go through.
IMO, even if she did leave the room..so what? It's not like she could be right there, and it is very hard to see your children in pain or going through procedures that are risky. I'm sure Josie won't have any memories of Mommy not being there. It seems to me that if she had been there, talking to Josie while the procedure was being done, she would be criticized for getting in the nurses's way!

Ohio Buckeye said...

I have to respectfully disagree that it's always better for a stressed parent to leave the NICU whenever an uncomfortable procedure is to be done for the baby because the baby picks up on parental stress.

Surely NICU babies glean more comfort from parental presence than stress, even though every parent with a baby in the NICU is stressed to the max pretty much all of the time.

I, too, have worked as an RN in a hospital nursery and I will just say that I respected far more the parents who courageously stood by, ready to offer comfort to their babies, than those who chose to put their own comfort above their baby's. JMO.

Homeschool Mom said...

I am looking forward to this episode. I had two babies at one time in the NICU and they also had very strict rules on pictures and visitors. We would absolutely love to have video footage of them from that time and they would love to see themselves as they were then.

We only have a couple of snap shots from their first 3 months of life. Had they not survived, which they were not expected to do, we would have very little to remember them by. I think the Duggars are extremely lucky to have all of this footage of this very precious time. I also think it has been handled very well and since Josie has her own room, it doesn't seem like it would interfere with the other families there.

For what it is worth, our NICU kicked the parents out to the waiting room any time any procedure had to be done on any baby. Most of the time you are in the way and there is nothing you can do. We wouldn't have been able to get close enough to their beds to whisper anything to them. It is very heart wrenching and upsetting to watch them do things to your baby. Stepping out of the room is an excellent way for Michelle to pull herself back together when she is getting emotional or upset.

When they are that small and that sick, there is very little a parent can or is allowed to do and it is very, very stressful knowing that many of the procedures they do are uncomfortable or painful. Unless you have had a baby in the NICU in this condition, no one really has any idea what the parents go through.

I am also anxious to see how they are adjusting to homeschooling away from home. As a 10 year homeschooling mom, it is always interesting to see how other families handle things. Especially stressful situations like this. The program they use is very good and we will be switching to it this fall due to the fact that I now have to work outside the home.

I do hope that those who object to homeschooling will take this opportunity to research it and educate themselves a little more before they ridicule or condemn it. Homeschooling has been a wonderful blessing for our family and I will be sad when it comes to an end in the next couple of years.
A homeschooling education can be far superior to a public school education and the socializing opportunities are much more varied than when a child attends a traditional school.

I am hoping I learn something from this show about being more organized with homeschooling. Now that I am working, it has changed our whole routine. I remember from their first special I learned that Michelle used the book Managers of Their Homes to get organized. That book helped us a lot, so I am always excited to see more about their homeschooling efforts. You never know when you will pick up a tip that really helps you out.

I also wish they would show more about the girls playing the harp. I have been taking lessons for a year now and I think it is so wonderful that they have parents that encourage them and provide them with the instruments they need. I hope one of them will pursue a career in music with her harp. It can be very lucrative.

Ohio Buckeye said...

@B: Well said and agree on both the home schooling AND the questionable ethics of refusing to take personalresponsibility NOT to risk putting another baby at risk of suffering Josie's fate and then calling that complete lack of responsibility ethically superior because it 'allows god to decide'.

Anonymous said...

I can actually understand Michelle leaving for some procedures. My youngest had to be hospitalized with croup when she was 4 months old. They had to take her to another room to get an IV started on her. They told me they were going to be putting it in her head. I felt horrible that I did not want to go with her and see her going through that. The nurses told me it was absolutely fine for me to not be there and that when they brought her back I would be able to hold her right away. Hearing her screaming from several rooms away was horrible enough and I am actually glad that I didn't have to see her having the IV put in.

Deanna said...

I have no problem whatsoever with homeschooling. I have a problem with Duggar homeschooling, because it mostly looks like there is no schooling of any sort happening at all...just a lot of rambunctious running around all day. Aside from the letter B, and talking about colors and shapes (haha, with 19 year olds) at the Biltmore, I haven't seen one sign of homeschooling from Michelle since they were in the small house with 14 kids.

The other day, I linked to a couple of other Quiverful/Gothard folks' blogs, where they describe their days, and there isn't much schooling or learning described there either. A lot of bus trips---not a lot of learning.

When people homeschool thoughtfully and well, it is great. When they do it like the Duggars, they are basically denying their children an education. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would not want to develop and nurture the mind of a child. Education is the most precious gift you can give your children---denying them that is neglect, at least in my opinion.

luvmybabies said...

I have spent time lately researching curriculum options for my own children, and I have looked carefully at the curricula the Duggars use. According to the Duggars' book, they use Switched on Schoolhouse for the olders, Accelerated Christian Education for the youngers, and ATI's Wisdom Booklets for all children, studied in the afternoons led by Michelle.

All of these curricula appeared solid and well-rounded to me, and if used properly could easily give children a great education. The wisdom booklets also recommended a wide range of complementary reading materials to go along with the lessons, primarily biographies and some classic literature. I don't know if the Duggars use all those additional resources or not.

The poor grammar sometimes used by JimBob and Josh isn't a great indicator of education per se - grammar problems are common in adults across the board, even college-educated adults. After looking at the educational materials the Duggars say they use, it looks like the School of the Dining Room Table could be better than a lot of people suspect.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the Duggar kids' grammar, a thought crossed my mind. JB and Michelle went to public school - they didn't use the same homeschooling systems their kids are using. The kids' grammar more than likely has been picked up from their parents rather than being a result of their schooling. I don't think we should blame The School of the Dining Room Table when it's very likely that, regardless of what the kids are learning, JB's bad grammar sticks with them more than their lessons do, which is really unfortunate.

Anonymous said...

If Josie or anyone else,had an ld. would they get s tutor for them?

just wondering :).

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Just because they show the kids sliding down the stairs does not negate them doing school work. Anyone who thinks the kids slide down stairs ALL day long do not know much about kids. Kids do not do one activity all day long as they get bored with that one given activity no matter how fun it may be. That was just a clip they showed of them having fun, not a full day's activity.

Ohio Buckeye said...

"it looks like the School of the Dining Room Table could be better than a lot of people suspect"

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Or, with all evidence to the contrary with the Duggars, a whole lot worse.

Public/parochial schools are far from perfect to be sure, but at least standards are in place dictating some level of education and training for the educators employed therein. JMO, I believe this to be an important factor in helping kids achieve their potential in education and in life in general.

Red Line said...

Ancient said..
"I have the feeling that the baby-holding episode will be more along the lines of "Look at the sainted mother holding her child," than "Look at the recovering baby being held by her mother."

It seems to be more about Michelle's role than it does about Josie's reality. That woman is going to have a major letdown once she loses her maternal (and I use that word loosely) identity.

I truly don't like to speak ill of anyone, but I think Michelle's self-centeredness is inconscionable, and her children will eventually suffer for not having had time, just time, with her."

I agree completely. Ever wonder why we don't really hear much/see much about Mackynzie? Because Michelle isn't the mother of that baby! It boils down to this: the show is all about Michelle, just like jon and kate was pretty much just about Kate.

Not that I really care.. the show is the show. Whatever. But It annoys me that clearly Michelle is the one getting all the praise for this when she would be nothing but a huge mess without her older girls. She couldn't do it without them.. yet she still gets the spotlight and the sainthood. Yuck.

nccalgal said...

It really doesn't matter how a person was educated nor the level of education. Bad grammar is epidemic. Whether it's using double negatives or the wrong tense, which makes a person seem uneducated, or worse, the "highly" educated wanting to sound superior and adding "ize" to a noun to make it a verb or my pet peeve, misusing the possessive tense instead of the objective tense (myself instead of me). Unfortunately, the more we hear these misuses, the more we become used to them and soon they no longer stick out and then they are part of regular speech.

Time to Stop said...

Michelle is losing her sainted status. People are tired of her just spitting out kids and leaving them for the older girls to raise.

I still wonder what will happen when she goes through menopause. This woman's entire identity is tied up in pregnancy, birth and nursing. She doesn't do a thing with any child post six months of age, so what will she do when she can't birth any more children? I sense an identity crisis in her future!

Ohio Buckeye said...

Wonder what it feels like to the Duggar offspring to be practically the sole focus of their mom for a year or so, only to then experience such a sudden and noticeable drop in attention and an accompanying pawning off to older siblings as soon as the next baby makes its arrival on the homefront?

I'm guessing J18 is having some real confusion these days as J19 arrived earlier than expected, giving little J17 even less time than most at the top of Ma Duggar's ever-growing totem pole.

Ohio Buckeye said...

"Josie Duggar's First Hug" - does this remind anyone else of "The Truman Show"?

Creepy.

Snap! said...

I can't believe how much Johannah looks like Joy Anna in this episode!

heavennoseven said...

Josh telling the baby to be pataint? wow, shes like 3 months o. What did her haircutting apron say?

SteelMagnolia said...

Does anybody else notice how very scripted (more than usual) that this episode seems to be? Particularly with regards to the children's "education". One would think that that part of the episode was written specifically to address concerns expressed on this blog. "I tell my children that life is a classroom." "We spend eight hours a day at our studies . . ." (paraphrased), etc.

*~*Nicole*~* said...

Awww baby Josie is adorable! I LOVE the little kids, they're full of cuteness. The middle kids kinda all blend together. I, too, want to know what Anna's apron said. And did anyone notice last week Josie was 39 days old and this week's epi she's 40 days old. Interesting to see them two days in a row...usually we don't know the time span between episodes. And Josh and Anna's devotional thing looked awkward and rehearsed. It didn't look like something they normally do. They both looked uncomfortable. One last thing...I was holding my breath when the kids were at that park and on the bridge. JB was focused on the camera and not any of the kids. I knew nothing bad would happen (aside from littler J-something face-planting) but it was nerve racking! I guess I'm overprotective....I would have had a grip on my kids LOL

ladyjayne813 said...

I thought the episode was pretty pointless. I really doubt those kids study for that long everyday. I think they are just telling the people what they want to hear. Michelle pretty much solidified that 90% of the learning is from the computer. And, as usual, the older girls are in charge of the additional learning. They are forced to sit with the little kids and do letters, etc.

Did anyone notice at the end when the 2 girls were sitting in the stadium listening to the kids sing? I think it was Jinger. She looked disgusted to even be sitting there.

Anonymous said...

ladyjayne813

it was jessa and jinger

SteelMagnolia said...

Another point . . .

Michelle saying that JimBob "has been so good TAKING UP THE SLACK" (while she is tending to Josie). Heck - the only ones taking up the "slack" are those older girls IMO. And they've had the slack all along.

pumpkin said...

This episode struck me as being very spliced together.

Josh and Anna... no, wait, Baby Josie... no, wait... kids at the park in Little Rock... no, wait...

There was no consistent theme this time, and they were clearly struggling for good material to fill 25 minutes of air time.

The shot of Jinger and Jessa in the stadium at the end sort of says it all... tired and bored.

Anonymous said...

All of this season's episodes look very choppy, and seem to have been put together at the last minute. Aside from the "very special birth episode", I'm sure that another trip to the grocery store, another look at homeschooling, etc were not what TLC had originally scripted for this season.

Iliketheduggars said...

Loved the episode, for a few reasons:

1. In the park, and on the bridge, the older girls look bored out of their ever-loving MINDS. And who wouldn't be? I'm sure Gothard wouldn't agree, but I much more enjoy seeing real emotion out of those kids than the plastered-on smiles we saw in the early specials. Makes it seem less likely they put on a good face because Daddy tells them to.

2. Michelle and her "modesty" statement as she was getting ready to hold Josie... she was talking to the cameraman and producer, and I loved her tone... it was about as no-nonsense and strict as I can imagine Michelle allowing herself to get, reminding them what she would and would not accept on-camera (though whether Mr. Camera and company got a good look or not, and the implications of that on the "modesty" discussion, are another interesting point). Gives me (some) hope that they do have some say over things, and that TLC listens.

3. The quiet, studious rooms during homeschooling lessons. I have homeschooled before, so frankly I have no qualms with nor worries about rowdiness interfering with learning... sitting at a desk eight hours a day listening to lectures or scribbling answers on worksheets is a far greater obstacle to real learning, and squelches any enthusiasm for it. But I know it bothered others, and I was glad to see the producers shed at least a little light on the structured part of their curriculum.

Enjoyed it!

Sunny said...

Wow! First, can Josh get out of bed before 10? No wonder the car lot has it's up's and downs...he's not there.... and secondly, what the heck is Josh doing talking to their infant like an adult..."be patient"..
Yikes!

Anonymous said...

i am from Oklahoma and have been to rogers for many things. my cousin is a pastor in rogers. He is friends with people, whom are friends with the Duggars. They own more land than you would think. They also own houses that they rent out to people. They really lucked out getting that Cell tower on their land. I say this because, If ur not from the Okla. Ark. area, You don't understand that we still dont get that great of Cell coverage. Just look at verizon map. massive deads spots, were people will not let them put up cell towers. IF you are lucky enough to get Verizon, etc to put a tower on ur land. YOU are literally make tons of money. the duggars cell tower brings in ALOT AND I MEAN ALOT of MONEY. The Main cell phone companies, verizon etc. pay to have the tower on the land, But all the small local companies pay too.

Anonymous said...

I see nothing wrong with them showing baby Josie. I noticed Michelle said, you will not see mama skin, u may see this but no my skin. I think that shows they are in control. I have a brother that was born a tiny bit smaller than josie, and he lost his battle to his bowel perforation, "think hole in stomache" I think its nice that the Duggars are Sharing what its like to have a prem. and a baby in the nicu. Apparently people do not see that this would be good for most high school girls to see. As a NICU nurse myself, my sister, and 7 girl cousins that are nicu nurses. We know what goes on in there. We all do different jobs in the nicu. which takes me back to HS. girls. People do not realize how many girls at 16 get pregnant, think that having a baby is grand. When alot endup having their baby in the nicu. Its very sad, they are 16, 17, sometimes 15. They don't understand what is happening, what will happen, what can happen. because even though a long time ago woman had babies at those ages. It wasn't a good thing, they just didn't know it. Now we know that having a baby at 15 will most likely land your baby in the Nicu. Just watch 16 and pregnant on mtv. I just found this website and maybe its because I like to believe the good in people. But I have never seen so many negative comments in my life. who calls someones family a freak. What has this world come to. I also am from Oklahoma and have been to rogers for many things. my cousin is a pastor in rogers. He is friends with people, whom are friends with the Duggars. They own more land than you would think. They also own houses that they rent out to people. They really lucked out getting that Cell tower on their land. I say this because, If ur not from the Okla. Ark. area, You don't understand that we still dont get that great of Cell coverage. Just look at verizon map. massive deads spots, were people will not let them put up cell towers. IF you are lucky enough to get Verizon, etc to put a tower on ur land. YOU are literally make tons of money. the duggars cell tower brings in ALOT AND I MEAN ALOT of MONEY. The Main cell phone companies, verizon etc. pay to have the tower on the land, But all the small local companies pay too.

Mandy said...

I actually enjoyed the fact that this episode didn't have a theme even if it meant that things were a bit choppy.

It seems like everyone gets sick of the themes so I thought everyone would like this one. I don't mind the themed ones, but I like a mix of both.

Deanna said...

I liked the disjointedness of the show. It seemed a little more real.

Impressions:

Those kids are trying to teach themselves by sitting at a computer all day. The reason we have TEACHERS is because kids usually cannot teach themselves important things. It also looked like they were doing the most "learning" in programs like Photoshop. No way in a million years do I believe that they do school, sitting at a computer, for 8 hours a day. Number one...it is BORING, and number 2, they will ruin their eyes and brains from sitting at a screen all day.

That's again why we have teachers, varied learning activities, some hands on, some book oriented, some lecture, some discussion, some physically active. It isn't even healthy to sit at a computer all day...even if kids really COULD teach themselves (yes, exceptionally gifted children can do this, but the Duggar children are very ordinary in the intelligence department and need direct instruction, like 95% of kids).

Michelle passing the buck on teaching anything at all was bizarre. Yes, we know you need your older girls to do absolutely everything, but did we see her lean over and help any of her children, with anything related to their studies? NO!! Even Hannie is supposed to teach herself by watching videos. Trust me, what they are watching is probably far less educational that TV with shows like Sesame Street (which they shun).

Seeing Michelle saying to Jenny, 'Can you say MOUTH Jenny? Mouth?" was so weird. Huh? The child is almost three years old. That is the way a normal mother speaks to a one year old. I thought for sure she was talking to Jordyn, but nope, she said Jenny. Or maybe she can't tell her own children apart.

All those boys look the same age. WHen they were singing, it looked like a class, not like a family. Yes, I know there is a set of twins in there, but the rest are very nearly the same height, and just shows how they are all practically Irish twins.

Jim Bob is not a great park supervisor.

Josh needs to get up on time. He looks sloppy and lazy.

BabyMac is really cute. I wonder how soon they will begin disciplining her? Babies cry because they need things, so at least Anna realizes it now, but it worried me that she had to comment about how that would change when McKynzie was a little bigger.

Baby Josie still looks really sick, even after three months in the NICU. I am glad Michelle could finally hold her.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Michelle saying that JimBob "has been so good TAKING UP THE SLACK" (while she is tending to Josie). Heck - the only ones taking up the "slack" are those older girls IMO. And they've had the slack all along."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Since he created 19 pieces of 'slack,' let's not canonize the guy for merely 'taking it up' occasionally. Big deal.

Ohio Buckeye said...

"I tell my children that life is a classroom."

*******************************

Then WHY are these kids systematically denied any taste of life?

Just another logic leap in Duggarville.

Anonymous said...

There is no reason to sell the family privacy if they can make enough money from the cell towers.

It just isn't worth it and they arent encouraging anyone to have large families. If anything, they are encouraging a lot of us to use birth control!

Anonymous said...

Jana was almost on existant in this episode, which is great if it is because she doesn't want to be on TV anymore. I doubt that the Gatekeeper and the Keymaster would allow her to bow out of the series, though.

Anonymous said...

This family does have some impressive dynamics; however those older girls always look so bored and uncomfortable. I feel sorry for them.

nccalgal said...

I watched both episodes last night since I missed last week. My only concern was when they were piling in and out of the van. It looked like they were holding the little ones on their laps and not sure if any of the other younger ones were belting themselves in. In fact, in one scene, it looked like Jordyn was sitting on someone's lap in the first row of seats where there was nothing to keep her from hitting the windshield had they been in an accident. I don't know what the seatbelt laws are in AR, but in NC they would have gotten a citation for EACH child that was not properly restrained. I too thought it irresponsible that JB and the older girls were leading the pack and the younger ones were trailing; what happened to the "buddy" system?

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I think they may have filmed the same day as when the two younger childen were doing their "talking heads" viewpoints they had on the same clothes. It was obvious with the bow in the girl's hair. Same outfit.

Judy said...

I thought it was interesting when the girl at the beginning (Joy Anna?) of the episode said something like We start whenever -- I mean -- at 8:00 am. (I'm not imagining that am I? Didn't she say that?)

Midwest Mom said...

I wonder how much of the "8 hours a day" of homeschooling is spent on just trying to get that James to settle down, get him to admit he actually HAS school to do, and then watch him actually do it.

Michelle already admitted in a previous school episode that "getting the little ones settled down for school is a challenge", then "getting them to stay settled down is a challenge". At some point she needs to admit there is a lack of discipline amongst the younger ones.

Yes, Jinger looked bored. She does enough "eye-rolling" to give me hope that one day she will flee Duggar-Ville and have a real life, pursue her own dreams and live up to her potential, not playing substitute-mommy to her mother's children.

CappuccinoLife said...

Finally had the chance to watch again.

I did think this episode had a lot of gratuitous silliness. "Bible study" with baby Mackynzie was nothing but awkward. Michelle's modesty comment, etc. I think it pans out this way because they are being asked to "demonstrate" their life or respond to questions asked but not heard by the viewer and it's just impossible for anything to flow naturally and either comes across as stilted or weird.

I do think Josh and Anna were both good sports about the haircutting thing, lol.

The little bit of homeschooling we saw didn't look bad. They're far from hands-off unschoolers, the older kids have a curriculum and expectations for daily work, and it's apparently not the minimalistic ATI curriculum. During the 8 hours mentioned, Joy-Anna said they have two 1-hour breaks. So it's really 6, which is within the range of reasonable. It looks to me like they have a range of opportunities for learning, with a curriculum (and outside teachers) through the computer, workbooks, reading, great field trips, and life in general. At worst they'll finish school at about the same level as the majority of America's highschool graduates. Some could easily do better even if their parents are as lackadaisical about education as people think.

Last weeks episode and this weeks were all filmed in a 48 hour period (days 39 and 40 for Josie). Which leaves the vast majority of two weeks that none of us saw.

Ohio Buckeye said...

"I see nothing wrong with them showing baby Josie. I noticed Michelle said, you will not see mama skin, u may see this but no my skin."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Sad to me that Josie is not given the same courtesy of deciding that she does not want to share her skin, muchless her struggle to live, with the entire viewing audience.

I'd respect these parents a whole lot more if they protected their kids' privacy and modesty at least as much as they talk about their own modesty.

Anonymous said...

Wow! First, can Josh get out of bed before 10? No wonder the car lot has it's up's and downs...he's not there.... and secondly, what the heck is Josh doing talking to their infant like an adult..."be patient"..
Yikes!

*******************

I am curious as to how we know what time Josh gets out of bed? Take my husband for example..He is up 7 days a week at 6:00 a.m sharp..On the days he works, he is out the door by 8:00, the other days, it takes him until 9:00 or 10:00 to get motivated. Do we know from this episode that it was a working day for Josh?

I do not believe in judging people, until I have walked a mile in their shoes. We only see bits and pieces of the Duggars lives each week.

I commend the Duggars for moving their whole family to Little Rock so that they all can be close together..Otherwise the 17 other children might not see their mom or dad for weeks on end..

Lee Ann said...

Well, now they're just contradicting themselves. I just watched an earlier episode when Michelle was still pregnant in which they showed the homeschooling. It was chaotic. One boy never would get his new writing pages out, saying he had done them already. Another boy couldn't concentrate (probably because of all the noise). Michelle said straight up that the little ones work out of workbooks (ug!) and the bigger ones do all their work on the computer (the computer is not the end-all, be-all of an education). It was also said that they do this 2-3 hours a day.

And on here, several people supported that, saying when you homeschool you don't need to spend as much time as you do in public school.

Now it's eight hours a day??? Eight hours a day of WORKBOOKS or staring at a computer screen?

Given the sheer amount of work the older girls have to do, they don't HAVE eight hours to spend working on a computer.

And in that older episode (in which Michelle was still pregnant), where were the older boys? All I saw were older girls and young kids. I thought that was weird. As for the older kids' schooling, it just showed one older girl checking everyone else's grades and that's it.

Phillip Ivey said...

My thoughts on last night:
My little regard that I have of Josh went way down after last night's episode. It seems like what Josh wants Josh gets and Anna is just his little slave. I thought it was telling when they were doing their "daily" devotion, she looked lost and dazed. I really think Anna is getting a big reality check of who Josh is and I really think she doesn't like it. Another thing that I thought was interesting was during the homeschooling session, it showed Jana helping Jackson with his work. When the camera got in close on Jana, Jackson held his notebook up to hide Jana's face from the camera. It puts more questions in my mind about Jana. Maybe the other kids have realized that Jana doesn't want to be on camera and are helping out with that. I do have a question for the board. How long on average is the episodes filmed before they are aired. I'm asking this because next week they are supposed to have a live announcement about something and I'm thinking they are going to announce that Josie has been released and coming home. However, there was an interesting post from Feb. 27 on Sean's Facebook.
Sean Overbeeke Driving to Little Rock, AR today. Looking forward to seeing the Bates!

Maybe the Bates were there for a visit, and then again they were there for a courtship announcement. I don't know what are your thoughts?

Ohio Buckeye said...

"Now we know that having a baby at 15 will most likely land your baby in the Nicu."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

You bring up an excellent point that it is a good thing to arm young women with lots of info on sex ed, including risks associated with pregnancy at such early ages.

However, IMO it's unfair to Josie to be used for this purpose. I simply do not understand nor can I condone parents who do not protect their children's privacy and dignity by refusing to allow cameras document the lives and struggles of their kids.

Building on your point about the high risks that can be associated with teen pregnancy, let's all remain cognizant that Michelle's AGE and medical history also predisposes her future fetuses to high risk as well, so for her to proceed in a 'god will decide' mode makes her refusal to take personal responsibility to prevent future pregnancies something less than ethical IMO.

Captain Tucker said...

Has it not ever occured to anyone that since the Duggars only film a few days a month then what we usually see on screen is not what normally goes on day to day? If most months have 30 days and the Duggars film 4 or 5, the that leaves 25 or so days of normal, non-filmed life. And they are usually filming special outings or events so those days would be a different schedule than most.

My point is all the running around behavior that we see from the younger children is probably greatly deminished when its just a normal day. No filming, no visitors, just a plain old day.

Also, public school children go to school about 180 days a year. That leaves 185 days a year to do other things. Like visit the Bates for a few weeks, take a vacation to Dollywood, go to their homescool conference. The Duggars have said that they school through the summer too. There is a lot of research that shows year around school, with several shorter breaks throughout the year greatly improves student retention. And when homeschooling, if you know your going put of town next month then you can put in extra time now and when you return to make up instructional time. It's not like someone pulling their children out of school for 2 weeks in September to go on a trip. Those children would loose 2 entire weeks of instructional time that cannot be made up. With homeschooling, you just take a break and pick up where you left off when you get home from the trip. It's a much more free way of living and can be less stressful.

The one thing that really irkes me about the Duggars is their lack of respect for other people's time!!! It is very rude to be habitually late for appointments. It looks as though the children get to sleep in a lot. Josh is unable to get up early and be functional. My hubby loves to stay up late and sleep in, but his job prefers him to be there daily on time. This is usally a major complaint about homeschooling families that they are not teaching the children to get up and out the door at a set time. Obviously with their large family, this is one thing the Duggars have had to let go. I have a feeling, Jim Bob was habitually late before he had his large brood. And calling it "Duggar " time doesn't make it okay!

Anon 3:14 said...

Regarding Michelle's "modesty" statement about not seeing her skin:

News flash, Michelle, no one wants to see your skin ! Having to hear about your inverted nipples and Josie's conception date is enough for a lifetime.

Anonymous said...

I also liked this episode. I'll admit it seemed like they were running out of things to show, but to that I say thank God. I'm glad they didn't create something else just for the show. At least this episode seemed a lot truer to their everyday lives. What I didn't appreciate was Michelle's explanation of how it was okay for us to see Josie's skin but not her own. Who is she to say that it's okay to see the baby's skin? How does she know Josie wouldn't mind that just as much as she does? Just because Josie doesn't have a voice doesn't mean she should be exploited, and she especially shouldn't be forced into doing things that her parents wouldn't alllow for themselves. It's like they don't see her as a human being yet or something. If not showing skin is so important to them and they go to great lengths to protect themselves and their other children, why not do the same for Josie? Not saying I necessarily agree with their principles regarding "modesty," but I would at least like to see them respect Josie as much as they care about themselves.

Tara said...

did anyone else notice that none of the younger ones were in carseats. 4'9'' is the magic number...

ohiomom said...

Sometimes I think that the show might be hurting Josh's car business. The public might not want to support Josh's business because of the opinions they simply have against JimBob and Michelle.

Celestie said...

3. The quiet, studious rooms during homeschooling lessons. I have homeschooled before, so frankly I have no qualms with nor worries about rowdiness interfering with learning... sitting at a desk eight hours a day listening to lectures or scribbling answers on worksheets is a far greater obstacle to real learning, and squelches any enthusiasm for it.

-----
Those kids were sitting on too big chairs at a too high table to write comfortably, with computers that were too high for good eyesight. I don't believe staring at a computer screen for 8 hours with one or two breaks (the boy didn't seem sure) is a terrific idea.. In a regular classroom, children move around to various stations and groups, go out to play, do art and music. Sitting for hours in front of a computer with ear phones on, when you can hardly see over the table is just wrong.
Propping an infant up in front of a computer is not the best way of learning, in my opinion. She should be sitting on mom or dad's lap learning where her mouth, toes, ears etc are located.

Ma and Pa's garbled explanations on how the older children gain from teaching younger children, would have been hilarious, if it wasn't so sad. It sounded like a poor excuse for the way things are in Duggarland. I think we all learn when we teach, but older kids should be spending their time advancing their learning.

I found the part on Josh and Anna rather sweet. I didn't mind him telling the baby to wait. Some times just a nice voice will calm a baby. I also liked Anna speaking of her love of holding and hugging her baby. I hope she doesn't follow Ma Duggard's way of abandoning her babies at age one or so.

At the park, I didn't see Pa playing with the kids. He just sort of stood there, while Michelle's voice said how much he liked being with his kids. Those kids need to get out like that every day, not a couple of times a week. Little boys have a lot of energy to expend.

babysteps said...

Seriously, I have seen every episode of the Duggars and their specials and the little kids have never used playdough, kids scissors, paints or anything artsy. That is sad. Only crayons and occasional markers. Preschoolers should not be learning mainly from a computer. They need hands-on experiences. The schoolagers need daily hands-on educational experiences too but I bet the Duggars think that means going to a park.

They must have not had enough material for the show last night to put on 10 minutes of Josh and Anna searching for clippers and cutting hair. Almost as exciting as little Joshy getting a plane ride. Josh and Anna are the most boring young people I've ever known.

Sky29 said...

For the most part I thought this was a really cute episode.

The homeschooling part was kind of iffy for me. I was home schooled and kept to a very strict time schedule. When I finally entered "regular school" I was well ahead of my class...but the Duggars home school looked a little chaotic.

I loved the Josh and Anna segment. Baby Mackynzie is adorable.

I also loved the kids singing at the park--how cute!

I too question the Duggars "no birth control" rule that resulted in Josie's early birth but Josie is here now, it's done and she is a precious little life. Sometimes I also wonder why they are showing all of Josie's little life on TV but I think it might be quite encouraging to other mother's of preemie babies.

Even though I dont always agree with the Duggars I still enjoy their show.

Anonymous said...

heavennoseven said...
What did her haircutting apron say?

`````````````````````````````````````

It said "Anna" on the first line and the second line in smaller print said "Rejoice Always!"

JAB said...

I had a weird thought last night during the episode-don't they "abstain" for 80 days after the birth of a girl? So in theory, Michelle could be knocked up again before baby Josie is released from the NICU, since she's at 40+ days and still tiny? Scary!

Anonymous said...

It seems Jana is definitally shying away from anything to do with the TV show anymore.

We've also had reports of TLC being in the Bates' neck of the woods.

Next week's episode is called "Dugger Girls' Roadtrip" or something to that effect.

I don't know if any of the above points are related at all, but it leads me to wonder...

Anonymous said...

The children aren't doing computer schoolwork for 8 hours a day. It's written in their book that their afternoons are used to study wisdom booklets at the dining room table with Michelle. Plus, Joy said they had two one hour breaks. So, that would be approx. 3-4 hours on computer curriculum, and 2-3 hours studying at the table with Michelle.

My husband works and learns on a computer about 50 hours a week, and has for years. 15 to 20 hours a week doing schoolwork on a computer doesn't sound bad to me at all.

bogus said...

Well, then the editors of the Duggars show should be fired. If I had people I know watch that episode, on supposed home schooling, they would not think much of HS. They made it look foolish and chaos. In the public and private schools here in Chicago, they are in school for about 5 and half hours. 8am to 11:40am or 12pm and 12:30pm or 1pm to 2-2:30pm. A lot of kids ride the school bus. It seems the Duggars spend less time at school work. I also can't for the life of me understand why Grandma, Jimbob or one of the older girls, could not take the little ones to another room and read to them or sing songs, as to not disturb the other children tryin to learn. I also think that James is a little hyper-active. I sat a kid that was hyper-active and their attention span was about 5-10mins, and they would argue with you and lie about things. I think Mr. & mrs Duggar need to spend a lot more time with their younger kids, than dump on the older ones to raise(saying loosely). Jimbob is so out of touch with his kids and so is Michelle. JMO

Kelly said...

I would suspect that the rambunctious running around and chaos is typical in that house. The way they tear around seems very familiar to all of them, and I rather doubt that they put on some kind of show, just for the cameras, and that the rest of the time those hooligans sit around studiously reading. What we see is very representative of normal behavior in that home.

Judy said...

I doubt they do school for eight hours in a day.

Anonymous said...

I liked see Josh in this episode, he seemed different. Sweet?

luvmybabies said...

As a homeschooling parent who is familiar with the curriculum the Duggars use I can tell you a couple of things...

They aren't using the computer 8 hours a day. The curric they use takes about 3-4 hours each day. It is a solid curriculum. Michelle then spends several hours a day with them using the Wisdom Booklets with all kids together (according to their book).

The Wisdom Booklets use additional resources like classic books such as Moby Dick and David Copperfield, biographies, history books, and science books. On ATI's website under IBLP, there is a Content Overview that lists all these books.

Teaching the youngers along with the olders during these wisdom booklet sessions can provide advanced education for the youngers. In my own home, I have been very surprised at all my youngers pick up when they sit in with my olders during teaching sessions. I think it's great to teach a 5 year old the basics of bankruptcy law, among other things deemed "too old" for them.

The curriculum used for the k-2 Duggars is Acclelerated Christian Education, which I have used and know it to be a very good curriculum.

If all these curricula are used properly, they could very well be providing the Duggar kids with a good education. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I have seen people that do homeschooling poorly, and the Duggars don't fit this mold according to what I've seen.

This is why I think it's a shame none of them thus far have gone on to college. With the olders finishing their hs studies at age 16, they could have easily had Bachelor's degrees by age 20, even without leaving home. I know the Duggars think entrepreneurially, but a college degree will always be an asset (assuming it was had without heavy debt). It saddens me to see them squander this opportunity.

Iliketheduggars said...

"I too question the Duggars "no birth control" rule that resulted in Josie's early birth..."

I don't know that "no birth control" resulted in an early birth, has that been confirmed? Premature labor and pre-eclampsia is fairly common, especially among women pregnant with their FIRST child... so I disagree that Michelle's age or previous pregnancies can be considered the definitive reason for Josie's prematurity. Those are general guidelines, for the average person. Michelle shattered those odds 18 times (or at whatever point she became too "old"), so it's harder to put her in those boxes.

Iliketheduggars said...

" I also think that James is a little hyper-active. I sat a kid that was hyper-active and their attention span was about 5-10mins, and they would argue with you and lie about things."

I've wondered about that myself... all the better for the Duggars to homeschool. Traditional school environments can be TOXIC and TRAUMATIC for kids with ADHD, who tend to thrive with homeschooling (as long as poor mom and dad don't get fed up and lose their patience, lol).

Anonymous said...

Car seat law in Arkansas is 6 years old or 60 lbs.

Cyn said...

Baby Josie still looks really sick, even after three months in the NICU. I am glad Michelle could finally hold her.

Baby Josie was 40 days in this episode that's barely over a month old, not 3 months.

Deanna said...

I sincerely doubt that Michelle is spending five minutes teaching those kids anything, from the Wisdom books or not. We haven't seen her teaching the kids in years. I don't believe she does it, because she herself said all the "teaching" is done on the computer now.

Michelle is so out of touch with her children that she thinks that there is lesson for her 19 year olds (or 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, etc year olds) about shapes and colors at the Biltmore and that her almost three year old should point to her mouth ("Where's your mouth, Jenny?") Puhleeze.

I think all this extended childbirth has turned Michelle's brain into complete and utter mush, which is why the little ones are "teaching themselves" on the computer too. Michelle has totally given up on mothering, teaching, etc.

No one is TEACHING those kids. And Photoshop is an elective in school, not a subject. I honestly don't know what any one of those kids know, and this little window into their homeschooling life was not terribly reassuring.

OK, Sean?

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The Duggars and other homeschool families who use the computer for most of their child's education are not alone in doing so. My daughter attended a charter high school and ALL of their work was done on computer. It can be done and is being done all over the state of Arizona.

Anonymous said...

As I recall, she wasn't asking Jenny to point to her mouth, she was asking her to pronounce the word. The little girl is only two years old, this is entirely appropriate. Many children pronounce their "th" as "f", even up to five years old or older, so it's good to practice this skill. I think it's quite a jump to say Michelle is out of touch with their children because she asked her daughter to say "mouth."

I've recently read their book, and Michelle does say in there that she spends time each afternoon teaching the children from the wisdom booklets, this is in addition to the individual schoolwork done on the computer. Why should we think she's lying about this? Also, I don't think the very youngest kids are using the computer program the older kids are. It sounded like it's a book type program. I don't know, it all doesn't sound that bad to me. I haven't been super impressed with what I've seen in my kids public schools, I don't know that what the Duggars are doing is any worse. Might even be better for all we know.

Ollie said...

As a homeschooling mother and homeschool graduate I shudder to think what non-homeschoolers are going to think of this episode, I certainly don't want anyone thinking that this is the way all homeschools are run.

As for the education the kids are getting, I'm not very familiar with the curriculum they are using, but from what I've seen it does a good job of teaching rote memorization of facts and some basic application of skills. It does not, that I am aware, teach children the analytical skills that they need to begin developing in high school if they are going to further their education. Truthfully no computer program has yet been developed that can teach a person to analyze and support an argument in a similar way to how one learns in the classroom through writing essays, debating with peers, etc. I think the lack of this in their education may be why the Duggar children can come off as younger than they are, they have never been given the opportunity to develop their higher level thinking skills.

Of course the Duggars/Gothard may not want to promote analytical thinking, as it may cause a child to question his/her parents' beliefs and maybe (gasp) make his or her own decisions.

Pippa said...

"Michelle is so out of touch with her children . . . that her almost three year old should point to her mouth ("Where's your mouth, Jenny?") Puhleeze."
_______________________

I, too, found that quite disconcerting. Not much else to be said on that except that it was very sad.

Anonymous said...

I said it once before, hospitals do not allow a lot of people in the NICU all those kids with germs and the whole camera crew. Last nights episode really bothered me. If I was holding my tiny baby for the first time and I had to be modest I would say get the cameras out of here and would completely cuddle my baby alone with my husband, not the cameraman.

Anonymous said...

Even if it is 6, the other poster was right, Jackson (5) Johannah (4) Jennifer (2) should all be in car seats. just another point of safety that the Duggars don't seem to care about.

babysteps said...

The only time we've seen all the kids visiting Josie was in the first few days of her life. They may have made an exception because they didn't know if she would survive. It may have been a hello/goodbye visit. Since then we've only seen a few adults visit Josie.

Joy said that they do school from 8-4 with two one hour breaks. So that equals 6 hours of homeschool.

For the life of me I don't know why they can't create a preschool room away from the other kids. They also should have plannned a schoolroom when they built that house to keep all their materials in one place. Go figure. But I really don't think education is even in the top 5 of importance for the Duggars. I really don't see any of the Duggar kids doing all that well in life career wise unless they get lucky with business deals like their dad.

Deanna said...

Jennifer will be three in May. I do not know a single "in touch" mother who would ask a near three year old, "Can you say mouth, Jenny?" and have her point to it, especially asking in that incredibly babyish voice that Michelle uses. It was completely bizarre. Maybe she thought she was speaking to Jordyn.

Honestly, I am not sure she can tell any of those kids apart, even though she "gave birth to every one of them" herself.

Thank you, Ollie, for your comments about analytical thinking. I agree completely. It is not homeschooling that ANYone here is against; it is the brand of Duggar "homeschooling", which is plopping all kids in front of a computer and not having any intellectual engagement at all.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste (I can't remember who said that, but it seems fitting here!). :)

Anonymous said...

Did we actually see the van moving and the children were not in car seats, or are we assuming they weren't because when they were being filmed it appeared the kids were sitting on the older childrens laps. I think a lot of time, we jump to conclusions without having the actual facts. Just because we did not see 8 hours of the childrens schooling does not mean they do not do school work all day long. Someone mentioned that going to a park isn't teaching them anything, but I disagree..They could have been learning about shapes and sizes (of the play ground equipment), they could have been learning about what goes into making such equipment, or they could have been learning about nature. We weren't there. We were shown a very small portion of the kids enjoying a day at the park. It could have been a Saturday or Sunday..It could have been later in the afternoon after their school work was done..

I loved the bonding moment between Michelle and Josie..I can only imagine what mom has been going thru not being able to hold her newborn daughter.

Midwest Mom said...

Ollie, loved your point about the lack of critical thinking skills in the Duggar education system.

A glaring example of this is in one of the early 1-hour specials, it was eldest son Josh's turn in the interview chair. Josh was lamenting the fact that it bugged him when people said that the Duggar children have no individuality.

Josh vehemently stated that yes, the children do have individuality because some of them like pickles and some do not.

That's all he could come up with.

Anonymous said...

previous commenter: "I think it's great to teach a 5 year old the basics of bankruptcy law, among other things deemed "too old" for them. "

----

That's great, but what about the basics of life, like when your mom tells you to go get your schoolwork and do it, the child actually obeys, instead of what we saw in a previous episode, the 8-year-old wanting to give Michelle 101 reasons why he shouldn't/couldn't do the work.

Anon 3:14 said...

Regarding the reports of TLC being in the Bates neck of the woods.....Mrs. Bates is, hold on to your hats everyone, pregnant again.

No big surprise there.

The Duggars better get busy or the Bates are going to catch up with them on popping out the young'uns.

Captain Tucker said...

There is no right or wrong way to do homeschooling. The great thing about homeschooling is that children move at their own pace and can work on a skill until it is mastered before moving on. This takes pressure off the child to "stay on grade-level". Not everyone is the same. So what if James seems behind for his age! This is very common for boys. In the public school system he would be labeled as ADHD or some other diability, medication and therapy would be suggested along with tutoring and remidiation. All he really needs is to be allowed to take his time and learn at his own pace.

Jennifer is 2 years and 5 months during the filming of the "mouth" episode. No doubt she knew where her mouth was. Most children can do this well before age two but I don't think it shows Michelle's out of touch with her children. She is reinforcing.

And the car seat thing. I saw in last weeks episode everyone getting out of the van. Jana was holding Jordyn and half of the other children were already out of the van. You could only see the front seat of the van. Most likely the childen were already out of their car seats. Also, in this week's episode you could clearly see Jordyns car seat at the far end of the front seat. In the past the smaller children have always been in car seats, I don't know why that would change now.

I think the Duggars are getting a better education than most children. Their enviroment is safe and encouraging. They are allowed to do things that they enjoy, such as Photoshop. Their "classmates" and teachers are people who love them and want the best for them. They stay on a skill until it's mastered instead of moving on so everything can be covered before the State test. They get to spend a huge amount of time with their family, who are the people who will be there for them throughout their lifetime. Just because Joy Anna is not reading on the level the State says she should be reading on, that does not make her home education inferior.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Ollie has hit the nail on the head, "Of course the Duggars/Gothard may not want to promote analytical thinking, as it may cause a child to question his/her parents' beliefs and maybe (gasp) make his or her own decisions."

There you have it. Keep 'em (wife & kids) uneducated and unquestioningly obedient because fostering critical thinking skills might just make total control and authority difficult to maintain for The Patriarch. Be sure to drum into the kids from their first breath that this is precisely the kind of patriarchal world God wants, and if they have doubts, they are clearly sinners and need to repent.

It's precisely the unwise who like to set themselves as Patriarch. A wise man would know better.

And a wise woman would marry a wise man. IMO.

Can't See Sheep said...

It really sickens me. How many dead child stars & dead children of stars have we had in the last two months alone? Three that I know of, three too many. It's sickening, get the kids off the TV, no child is meant for the entertainment of others.

Anonymous said...

Was it me...or did Josh just roll out of bed..?

Iliketheduggars said...

"And Photoshop is an elective in school, not a subject. I honestly don't know what any one of those kids know, and this little window into their homeschooling life was not terribly reassuring.

OK, Sean?"

Who is Sean?

Jo said...

Josh and Anna are just so young. They really seem like kids who some how got a baby to take care of. I can't imagine having a baby so soon after I got married. Maybe they will mature some as time goes by and wait a little while to have another child. They seem like someone needs to take care of them, not the other way around.

Anonymous said...

I had to explain to my son that some people dislike the Duggars so much that it's not safe for the children to play in the yard of the rental house all the time and an out of the way playground was a safe place where the family would not be threatened.

I also laughed at the look on the older girls' faces when the younger ones were singing. Over the decades I've seen that look plenty of times on older kids trying to teach younger kids singing or acting.

For curiousity sake, I checked out some of the YouTube Premature Babies 24 Weeks videos. I applaud TLC and Josie's parents for the tactful way they are sharing what it's like to have a micro-preemie.

Ohio Buckeye said...

Ollie has hit the nail on the head. Twice. First, in pointing out that the Duggars give a bad name to homeschooling and second by pointing out, "... the Duggars/Gothard may not want to promote analytical thinking, as it may cause a child to question his/her parents' beliefs and maybe (gasp) make his or her own decisions."

IMO discouraging critical thinking skills coupled with zero tolerance for anything less than unquestioning obedience to The Patriarch serves to keep the flock silently in lock step.

Reflecting on German history, this is not such a wise and wonderful approach and falls far short of a religious ideal. But then, as stated, JMO.

No, I'm NOT saying JBD is Hitler, but I AM questioning the wisdom of absolute Patriarchy, where the only qualification for family leadership is a y chromosome.

This kind of waste of feminine potential seems wrong on many levels IMO.

shawna said...

"Jenny where's your mouth?"

Ugh. That kind of baby-talk stuff is appropriate for my one year old son. Not for "Jenny". Michelle is deluded. Seriously, I used to love Michelle. I thought she was just an awesome mom and wife, had it all together, could do anything. But now I really dont know what that woman does. Besides get pregnant. I don't see much "mothering" going on.. very little affection, cuddling, discipline, schooling, cooking, cleaning. What does she DO!? Point me to an episode where she's doing something besides doing an interview or nursing as she delegates work. Singing a goofy song about a worksheet is not gonna cut it. I want real evidence of her being a mom, not just a figurehead.

Jane in California said...

Anonymous said...

I had to explain to my son that some people dislike the Duggars so much that it's not safe for the children to play in the yard of the rental house all the time and an out of the way playground was a safe place where the family would not be threatened.
* * *

I'm sorry, but I must have missed the news articles or news shows that discussed the times where the Duggars were attacked, harassed or threatened by strangers for their beliefs. I sure would appreciate it if you'd post the links or give me some indication of when, where, etc. so I could look this up online as well.

I mean, how often are they out in the public anyway? They always go en masse when they travel, they drive that huge gas guzzling bus of theirs most places, and this is the first time I've heard of them having to live in a home away from their own home.

Were there incidents at any of their own homes where people drove by and threatened the Duggar children? What exactly are the dangers posed by playing in a front yard for the Duggars?

Of course, the greatest danger was brought about by Mr and Mrs Duggar's decision to allow their children to be filmed for television. This has exposed them all, especially the daughters, to all sorts of weirdos and creeps who, with some simple use of Google Earth, can easily locate their home, which appears to be rather too easily accessible.

I think the moral of the story is -- protect your kids, keep their lives off the television screen. It's not because of their religious beliefs that the Duggar children might be faced with risks outside of the ordinary -- it's because their parents willingly chose to place them in the limelight and thus increase the risk of danger to them. What a shame.

Jane in California said...

I am truly puzzled by the concept of teaching a five year old the basics of bankruptcy? Why does a five year old need to even be taught stuff like that? It's completely age inappropriate and bizarre to me. Yes, teach your children about saving, spending wisely, living frugally. All great things. But the basics of bankruptcy??? What next, landlord-tenant law? These people are so odd to me.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Many homeschooling families do not want their kids separated during schooling hours so that may be why they do not have a preschool room. The idea is to have kids of multi age groups together for most of the school day interacting. Homeschooling is not doing school at home for most homeschoolers.

Ohio Buckeye said...

"...in one of the early 1-hour specials, it was eldest son Josh's turn in the interview chair. Josh was lamenting the fact that it bugged him when people said that the Duggar children have no individuality.

Josh vehemently stated that yes, the children do have individuality because some of them like pickles and some do not.

That's all he could come up with.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I, too, had the same reaction to that statement from Patriarch-In-Training, Josh.

My thought was how sad it is that this young man did not even comprehend the depth of his lack of understanding of the whole independence/individuality/encouragement to develop critical thinking skills issue.

To use parental acceptance of some kids liking one food while other kids are permitted to dislike that same food as an example of Free To Be You & Me in Duggarville was a sad (but accurate, IMO) commentary on Duggarville Life at least as portrayed on TLC.

Iliketheduggars said...

"IMO discouraging critical thinking skills coupled with zero tolerance for anything less than unquestioning obedience to The Patriarch serves to keep the flock silently in lock step."

Agreed. Although with some understanding of their homeschool curricula, I doubt they discourage it completely... it's just that it is only selectively applied to support a very conservative Christian worldview.

"No, I'm NOT saying JBD is Hitler, but I AM questioning the wisdom of absolute Patriarchy, where the only qualification for family leadership is a y chromosome."

AMEN! "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." That's why men in this subculture can appear so arrogant... they are taught that superiority from birth.

However -- and this is a VERY qualified however -- there's been a movement in some fundamentalist corners emphasizing the responsibility of the "head of household" position, rather than the power and leadership. Believe me, this is a very positive change, and it is the viewpoint the Duggars seem to embrace (we'll wait and see with Josh and Anna).

It's not my preference... women are still subservient, and in worst cases almost treated as children, who need to be "protected" and "taught" as such. But it's a long way from women being the cause of every problem, blamed for failed marriages or children who think for themselves. Progress is good...

Anonymous said...

" Point me to an episode where she's doing something besides doing an interview or nursing as she delegates work. Singing a goofy song about a worksheet is not gonna cut it. I want real evidence of her being a mom, not just a figurehead"

Just off the top of my head:

Going into a lengthy and patient discipline session with Johannah at the park in NYC about not hollering "no" when instructed to do something

Reading a storybook to her young children at the table while nursing Jordyn under a blanket during the q and a episode

Feeding Jordyn baby food on the couch (yes laying down as she has taken much flak for)

Making "scrambled Ostrich eggs" for her family after the visit to the ostrich farm

Riding with Johannah on the train by herself and talking with her about what they were seeing

Making cinnamon rolls for breakfast for her family (which she's gotten flak for as well)

Shaving the back of Josh's neck before his wedding commenting that it would be the last time and she would miss it

Exchanging banter with Joseph about what kind of girl he would marry during the q and a episode

Sitting alone with Jessa while pumping for Josie

Giving Joy a kiss and a hug on her birthday

Holding Jennifer in her arms while watching the older girls give Jinger a perm



...Just to name a few.

Anonymous said...

Sean is the producer and people speculate that he reads these boards and that is why we see schooling when the boards talked about lack of schooling, etc.

Anonymous said...

A few more -

Michelle spreading all the clean laundry out on the table and calling everyone to come and help fold it

Disciplining a young boy firmly and nicely - maybe Jeremiah - for coming into the living room with food, also on the q and a episode I think

Reading her older girls a bedtime story on the move-in episode (might have been contrived but who knows)

Michelle and JimBob talking with Jessa alone in a restaurant on her birthday

babysteps said...

Jenny is 2 and a half. Her birthday is August 2. If you noticed when she said mouth she didn't pronounce it very well. I'm thinking Michelle is aware of her having a speech issue and is helping her along. The th sound is really hard for most kids.

I'm glad Michelle is helping Jenny with her speech. I have known lots of kids with speech issues and their parents never attempt to correct them. Some aren't even aware their child has a speech problem until a kindergarten teacher points it out.

Anonymous said...

I'm sure Michelle can tell her children apart. That shows a totally lack of understanding when it comes to being the mother of a large number of children. Coming from a large family, I can assure you that my mother knows each of her children well. Michelle doesn't care less for her children just because she has 19. She doesn't know them less than a mother of 2 or 3 would not know hers.

Cyn said...

What exactly are the dangers posed by playing in a front yard for the Duggars?

The Duggar children especially the younger ones are not used to watching for traffic, if the ball runs out in the street the child is going to run after it. The 'fence' around their rental house is wide enough for a small child to slide through it.

These children have moved from large, almost ranch play area to a small little yard that is fenced in, parks are built in the cities for kids to play on, why is it so contrived that the Duggars use them instead of a cramped (to them) front/back yard?

Being in a larger city they will have a greater chance of a child being snatched than if the child were back at their house simple because they are on a very busy street. Out at their house there is a very long gravel driveway to come down before you get to the house.

They are on TV now, nothing can change that, and that does increase the risks.

Jane in California said...

Hi Cyn and thanks for responding to my question about why the Duggar children might not feel safe playing in a fenced in front yard at the rental house.

An anonymous person indicated that she (he?) "had to explain to my son that some people dislike the Duggars so much that it's not safe for the children to play in the yard of the rental house all the time. ..."

So I wondered where anonymous got this information about people disliking the Duggars so much that the children themselves weren't safe. Because that statement seems to indicate there is a real anomosity out there toward the Duggars that would lead some people to behave dangerously toward the kids. I wanted to know where that idea or information sprang from. I still await anonymous' explanation and hopefully links that explain his/her belief that the Duggars need be afraid for the children's safety.

Personally, I totally understand the need to watch children carefully when they play outside, whether it be front yard, back yard, etc. I often took my son to local parks to play, so he could really run around far from any roadways. But I didn't do it because I thought people disliked me and would then turn that dislike into wilful action against my child.

Actually, I remember reading that the rental house is not in a really good part of town, despite its historical significance. If true, that would also be a good reason to play at the park every day.

I sure hope those children get at least an hour of play time out of doors every day. I always made sure that my son had lots of time outside if possible, to burn off his youthful energy. It made it that much easier for him to follow our house rules when indoors - indoor voice, no climbing on tables, no treating the house like a jungle gym, etc.

Jane in California said...

They are on TV now, nothing can change that, and that does increase the risks.

Very true - once you open Pandora's box, you can't undo the damage that has been done. However, if the Duggars were truly concerned for their childrens' welfare, they would try to minimize the damage and at minimum, revert back to once yearly specials. However, they've gotten very dependent on that income and won't give it up willingly.

luvmybabies said...

" Truthfully no computer program has yet been developed that can teach a person to analyze and support an argument in a similar way to how one learns in the classroom through writing essays, debating with peers, etc."

Speaking for myself, I never in all my years of public school or private college was taught to "analyze and support and argument" or "debated with peers". The only kids I knew that did this were the ones who took debate as an extracurricular activity. I just listened to lectures and did textbook assignments, and a paper here and there. Heaven knows I was too scared to say anything and never debated anything with anybody. I doubt if this is superior to a good curriculum done on computer.

I do though, teach my children writing in many forms, and have them occasionally analyze and debate with each other at home. One can easily do this as long as there are two or more children within a few years of each other. The Duggars could easily do this with the number of kids they have, don't know if they do or not though.

Ancient of Days said...

Sometimes I think that the show might be hurting Josh's car business. The public might not want to support Josh's business because of the opinions they simply have against JimBob and Michelle.
____________

Regardless of my opinion of Josh's parents, I don't think I'd buy a car from him. He's not serious, not focused, and he lacks the attention to detail that I want from someone with whom I'm doing business. Besides, if I had some question before or after the sale, he just simply wouldn't be around to answer it. Who told him he could be a sybarite and use the car lot as a cover for his indolent lifestyle? Josh will someday have to learn that there's no free lunch, and, boy, will he be caught short then.

On the other hand, perhaps he should stay at home as much as possible. With two parents on site, it may be less likely that baby M. tumble off the bed and shatter her noggin.

What am I thinking? He can't monitor his child *and* snooze away half the morning.

Ancient of Days said...

After having watched this most recent episode, I can say without hesitation that I have lost all admiration, respect, and even liking I ever felt toward the Duggar parents. The whole show was devoted to responding to viewer criticism, and I had no sense whatever that I was seeing a true slice of Duggar life. It was all fabricated, and I don't appreciate their trying to pull the wool over my eyes.

Message to the Duggar parents: Give me credit for some intelligence as a viewer, and for a genuine caring about the future of those children. Don't give me pap and (invented) circumstance just because you're running scared that the show is nearing its end! If you'd stayed true to your originally stated goals and values, I'd feel some understanding and sympathy for your lifestyle. As it is, I'm fed up with the sham. Shame on you!

Danielle said...

I actually know a lot of mothers who leave the room when their children receive shots or other painful procedures. I am not one of them, however. And, I have never ONCE seen any other mom being condemned for doing so. The comments about Michelle are the first.

Anonymous said...

Josh's haircut was at 9:30 am.
There was a clock right above them.

Shari said...

Are there any update on Josie's progress and when she might be released from the hospital? I know her due date is coming up and that's typically the time frame for preemies, depending on their condition.

babysteps said...

The Duggars more than most families need to watch out for their kids because of strangers. I have read on many boards where people say some really hateful things about them.

Also strangers know the Duggar kids names and can easily trick them and lead them away. But even at their Tontitown house they need to be careful but more so in Little Rock.

When the girls went shopping there was a strange guy talking to them and another seemed to follow them outside the store. I'm glad Jim Bob is aware of the danger.

I don't think it's a reason to stop doing the show, they just need to be more careful and aware. At the Dollywood parade I noticed they had security guards. That's life these days when so many weirdos are allowed to own guns.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Many homeschoolers do a lot of debating and use critical thinking as part of their daily curriculum. Those who claim the Duggar children do not do this are just assuming. There is a lot of assuming on this forum. The shows show us just a clip of what they do so trying to say this or that about them is usually projected from the blogger and may not have anything to do with the Duggar family.

msrylee said...

I am not encouraged by Michelle making it quite clear that we will not see Mama's skin, just Josie's body. Michelle made the decision to not show her skin, but Josie certainly did not make the decision to be shown on camera, wearing a diaper. Modesty in the Duggar opinion is okay for Michelle, but what about Josie? IMO, the first time she held Josie, the nurse, JB and M should have been the only ones in the room. Such a private and special time once again was made public by the Duggars and TLC.

Anonymous said...

" What exactly are the dangers posed by playing in a front yard for the Duggars? "

---

No different than the behavior they display playing indoors: dragging each other around, jumping on each other, rough-housing, just to name a few. I wonder when we get to see an episode "Duggar child X's trip to the emergency room for stitches and/or broken arm."

Anonymous said...

"I am truly puzzled by the concept of teaching a five year old the basics of bankruptcy? "

They have changed the bankruptcy laws so much that even the bankruptcy lawyers have a hard time understanding it! Shouldn't a 5 year old be taught money management so he/she can avoid bankruptcy?

The poster who says she never debated a peer. I am sure you have - it starts in elementary school - who is cuter Tom or Joe...etc.

If Josh is an example of the model duggar homeschool student - yikes. He really needs to go to bed earlier so he can learn to get up and go to work and he starts work at 10!!!! And the duggars start homeschool at 8 in the am - lmao - to get everyone fed, showered and dressed they would need to all get up at 5 in the am.

Anonymous said...

Regarding Michele being "addicted" to having babies which has been said many times, did anyone see the look/expression on Michelle's face when she first got to hold the baby? Now I know this must have been a long awaited moment for her but IMO she actually looked like she was in another world. There was a glazed look in her eyes. It was a very intense moment I know but it was such a strange look. I wonder.....

Ash said...

"Giving Joy a kiss and a hug on her birthday"

-----------------------------------

Seriously? Seriously??! This counts in a list as evidence of her "being a mom, not a figurehead"??? The fact that Anonymous would even feel the need to include this shows just how few and far between these moments are. This is just sad.

And this?? "Holding Jennifer in her arms while watching the older girls give Jinger a perm"

Oh, I see. We see her holding one of her babies herself the one time when her older daughters have hazardous chemicals on their hands and thus cannot do it. Mom of the year!

Everything on that list was grasping at straws, but those two are particularly silly.

texas said...

"Josh vehemently stated that yes, the children do have individuality because some of them like pickles and some do not."

As I recall, what Josh said is that yes, the children have individuality, then said they each have different interests and hobbies, they each like different foods, that kind of thing. He did not say "we have individuality because some of us like pickles and some of us don't." I thought it was a fine answer to a dumb question. Of course they have individuality, they are each a person no matter how many children in the family.

I think it's silly to draw the conclusion that Josh is unable to think analytically because of his answer to that question, which was much more than some kids not liking pickles.

Kelly said...

I agree with Ash. That giving Joy a hug counts as some kind of special mother moment is really pathetic. The fact that we don't see Michelle carrying around her own children, or pushing her own children in strollers (she is too busy holding hands with her husband to bother with her children) is fact enough.

She has even pushed off the education of the younger kids, whom she USED to purport to teach, onto the older kids.

Those older girls do blasted everything, and can't even SLEEP by themselves, without a toddler in bed with them. It is so beyond sad, there just isn't much more to say about it.

luvmybabies said...

Funny that the topic of "teaching a 5-year old bankruptcy law" has been debated lately because just this morning my 6-year old overheard a conversation between me and my husband and asked, "Mom, what's bankruptcy?" I briefly explained that it means you don't have enough money to pay back the money you owe to people so you go to court, file some documents, and then you are let off the hook for the money you owe. I also mentioned that a consequence from that is that you aren't able to get a loan to buy a car or a house for a very long time. He asked me a couple of questions about it, we had a good little conversation, and he went on his way, happy to know a little bit more about the mysterious adult world around him.

I'm sure there are others who have had conversations with their young children about similar adult concepts. I still stand by my assertion that Michelle teaching 5 year old Joy the basics of bankruptcy is cool, not ridiculous! Children can and do understand things that aren't part of your typical first-grade curriculum.

-Nicole

Hannah said...

I do think the kids do not get a good education and its sad. When the older girls move out, who will teach the younger ones.

I dont think the boys help out with the school, after age 16.

I know the boys have chores too. However, they dont seem everyday type jobs, like the girls have. (like oil changing, fixing a leak, changing a light bulb).


I saw one show, where the girls were working and the one the older boys was taking a nap. It just bugs me.


I think the duggars are nice people, but I wish the older girls could get a real break(like going to the spa or all going out and doing somthing just them.)


Also, will the older girls ever work at the car dealship or with the towing?

Anonymous said...

"One can easily do this as long as there are two or more children within a few years of each other. The Duggars could easily do this with the number of kids they have, don't know if they do or not though."
---------------------------------

We assume the Duggars aren't doing this, not because of the number of people, but because they don't encourage development of individual opinions, and none of those kids have anything different to say from one another (except that one might not like pickles), so there wouldn't be much of a debate.

Anonymous said...

If Janas facebook is real. Josie is up to 4 pounds now.

Anonymous said...

As I recall, Josh said that it really "bugged him" when people said they don't have individuality.

His snotty people-are-so-dumb tone of voice in the famous "pickle answer" was just so foreshadowing of the person he's grown up to be. He is so full of hot air I"m surprised he doesn't float.

Deanna said...

I doubt that there is any "bankruptcy law" teaching going on around the dining room table, since that little clip was from the old house when there were about five fewer children and Michelle still did "some" teaching.

She has admitted that all instruction is on the computer now. I think the days of the dining room table teaching are done. There are just too many unruly kids, and I would be surprised if there was as much bible study going on, as they purport to do in their book. The couple times in the past few years we have seen Jim Bob reading something from the bible (like the Noah episode), it is about five minutes long, possibly because no one is listening very carefully.

Some kids are very able to learn about mature and adult topics at a younger age. Some aren't. I would imagine that Jim Bob and Michelle have no idea whatsoever what their children can and cannot learn, since they are totally out-of-touch with their kids' education (plenty of evidence...the teaching of B to a child who should have learned it years ago, the "colors and shapes" big learning experience at the Biltmore, the "say mouth, point to mouth, Jenny" to her almost three year old). Detached from the reality of education, completely.

Unfortunately, the children are the ones who suffer from substandard education. It assures that they will never advance at all in this competitive world, once TLC stops funding their lifestyle.

Anonymous said...

" I briefly explained that it means you don't have enough money to pay back the money you owe to people so you go to court, file some documents, and then you are let off the hook for the money you owe. I also mentioned that a consequence from that is that you aren't able to get a loan to buy a car or a house for a very long time. He asked me a couple of questions about it, we had a good little conversation, and he went on his way, happy to know a little bit more about the mysterious adult world around him."

See this is the problem with homeschooling and getting the information from a non-expert such as Michelle and JimBob. First even if your bankruptcy is approved (it can be DENIED) you are generally not let off the hook for child support, taxes, student loans and a few other things. You can also reaffirm debts. And you may have to sell some of your stuff. Also your credit is better after a bankruptcy b/c you generally can't file for another 7 years and it is EASIER to get a car loan than before you filed for bankruptcy because most, if not all, of your debt has been discharged!

It will be interesting to see what happens to Josh's car lot - maybe John David will take it over.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

What one is assuming is that they do not know how or practice debating. Once again this is an assumption. I can assume exactly the opposite as I know most homeschoolers who are Christians and desire their children to keep the faith teach them critical thinking and have debates as they want their children to OWN their faith and not be a Christian simply because they are born into a Christian family.

Someone mentioned that the answer that Josh gave about pickles was taken out of context by a previous poster.

babysteps said...

"If Janas facebook is real. Josie is up to 4 pounds now."

____________________________________
Jana's facebook is NOT real. It looks like it's been created by a 6 year old with horrible spelling and grammar. I don't think the Duggar's homeschooling is THAT bad. LOL

Pippa said...

"After having watched this most recent episode, I can say without hesitation that I have lost all admiration, respect, and even liking I ever felt toward the Duggar parents. The whole show was devoted to responding to viewer criticism, and I had no sense whatever that I was seeing a true slice of Duggar life. It was all fabricated, and I don't appreciate their trying to pull the wool over my eyes."
_____________________

I totally agree, as this episode was (obviously) extremely contrived.

In the beginning, I liked watching the Duggars in their REAL environment.

They just aren't real to me anymore.

Jane in California said...

It is kind of sad when one example of Michelle's fine motherhood is that she gave one of her children a hug and kiss on their birthday. All I can say is "I should certainly hope so!"

I don't think Michelle is evil or hateful. But neither do I find her a particularly involved or good mother to her kids. She's soft spoken and she gazes adoringly at JB a lot, and she smiles at her kids when she is around them, but basically I see a woman whose primary focus is on getting pregnant, being pregnant, giving birth, and breastfeeding. Then the 6-month mark is met, and it begins again. All else seems secondary and of much less interest to her.

As to the first hug, I'm glad Josie is still soldiering on and gaining weight slowly. I hope she doesn't have serious lifetime health issues. Who knows when she'll go home, but probably not for awhile yet.

Elise said...

With the pickle thing it was not Josh who said it at all it was John David. Josh does talk about food but in the interest of cooking

babysteps said...

People may debate Michelle's parenting skills or lack of but there is one thing that she has exhibited often that I admire, her patience. She never raises her voice or gets sarcastic with the kids. She always speaks gently even when James was badgering her about his homeschooling being done, she basically ignored that behavior and insisted he get his work. Kate Gosselin raised the roof each week with her temper but Michelle has wonderful restraint.

The other day I saw an episode where Jackson was all wound up and she gently put him in a chair (time out) saying he was being to rough and walked away. Jackson was weepy but obeyed. Supernanny would have been proud.

Anonymous said...

If I wasn't the one doing all the mundane household work and taking care of the kids I, too, would have had a lot more patience when my children were younger.

I am sure Michelle loves her children but she does seem totally disconnected to them, not bonded at all, once they turn a certain age.

She reminds me of a teacher who is dealing with a room full of students. Not that she is teaching them but how she relates to them. I just don't get any motherly vibe from her. I will say that Jim Bob does seem to enjoy his children and to me is more bonded to them than Michelle.

I thought this episode was pretty much a snooze fest. I don't understand why Michelle has to announce her modesty at every turn. How hard would it have been to just turn away from the camera to get Josie settled and never said a word about her "modest skin". I find it ironic that she is concerned about being modest and won't show her skin but has no trouble having her child's shown. I think her talking about being so modest actually is immodest.

Kelly said...

I really doubt that Jana has a Facebook page. That would not be in line with JBD's plans for his daughters. He'd rather display them on national tv for all the pervs in the world, rather than let them have access to normal social networking tools.

Michelle does have a kind voice, and I too have never heard her yell. But she also does not talk to her children in an age-appropriate manner. She talks to all of them as if they are babies, whether the kid is 1, 3, or 15.

Anonymous said...

Jana's Facebook isn't real. Cousin Amy's is (I know her), and she's said that none of the Duggars girls' profiles are real. She, herself, also posts periodic updates about Josie.

Nicole said...

I'm friends with cousin Amy on Facebook and she has said a few times that she's the only person from the Duggar family that is on Facebook....so Jana's isn't real.

Hannah said...

Does anyelse notice how Josh is annoyed or mad about the whole Josie thing.

He semed mad when he found his mom was expecting, since Anna was still preg.

He didnt say one word about Josie last week.

Even when they all saw her he was taking pics, when his wife was crying.

babysteps said...

Last I looked Josh and Anna do have a facebook page but it's set on private and most of their friends are the conservative Christian type.

Josh also has photos up on Picasa. They are copyrighted so I just look, don't copy.

Anonymous said...

I didn't think Josh looked mad; I thought he looked incredibly emotional hearing how sick his Mom was and how tiny the baby was. You could see it in his face and hear it in his voice.

Josh & Anna probably did the typical first parent thing and researched their own babies development at every stage of the pregnancy. If they did he would be very aware of the size and development of the little one, probably way more than his father was. If he was a little put out at first, I think he got over it when Michelle got sick and then seeing how incredibly tiny Josie is. If you have never seen an infant that small you just can't picture it. Seeing it on TV just really doesn't give you a true feeling for the fragility and the tininess. To me they almost look like a fragile little bird without it's feathers and you wouldn't want to touch them any more than absolutely necessary for firm of damaging that fragile translucent skin. It is truly a unique experience just to see one, and if that is your baby or related to you it has to be incredibly difficult!

Anonymous said...

M's serene demeanor appears to stem less from her nature than from having staff (her daughters)who do the heavy lifting. No wonder these young women watch the calendar like hawks and are tired.

Would that it were so breezy for the rest of us.

Jennifer Harris said...

I've been an English teacher and a school administrator for years. I have an M.Ed. in Curriculum & Instruction.

In order for one person like Michelle Duggar to even adequately educate 18 children from preschool through the high school years, especially when there are so many of them so close in age, she'd have to do nothing BUT playing the role of teacher/facilitator/guide all the time.

In other words, with that many kids that close in age, they HAVE to resort to workbooks and computers. Otherwise, they'd need to hire teachers/tutors.

And let me tell you, workbooks and computers can only take you so far--which is not far at all. Workbooks are rote and typically don't go to a very high thinking level at all (I'm thiking of Bloom's Taxonomy). I doubt the mid-elementary aged kids on up are ever really challenged and have to grow intellectually. And that's one of the biggest points of education--growth.

Computer programs also cannot serve as the entire instruction in a good, deep education. They can be a wonderful resource. But shouldn't be relied on 100% as they are doing.

The older kids should be learning Algebra, Geometry, Algebra II, Biology, Chemistry, possibly even Physics. Somehow I doubt they are. Those topics are pretty hard to learn from just a computer program. And if they have any gaps in their lower-level skills, it'd be just about impossible without a tutor (a human one) very familiar with the subject.

Are they learning a foreign language, by any chance?

What about history? US History, World History, World Geography: those three courses are the minimum high schoolers take to get a diploma. Many go beyond that.

The assumption that you can just sit kids down with a workbook or a computer program and they will stand up one day and have a good education is just as wrong-headed as the day is long.

It's not exactly a shock to me, but I noticed there's this thinking that the kids are all getting a good education and they simply can't be. The girls have too much to do every day dealing with the younger kids and doing their "jurisdictions" such as laundry and cooking for the family--when would they be able to study even a half load of what the typical teenager studies in school?

While there are certainly advantages to homeschooling, one of the big disadvantages is that home and all the "stuff" to do at home is always there, always encroaching. My daughter is a sophomore in high school (public)and has a dedicated six hours a day that is only for her education. Then at home, she is required to put in whatever time she needs to on homework and studying to be successful. (She takes Advanced Placement courses.)

She has chores that are expected of her. Quite a few, in fact. But she's not also doing the laundry and cooking for a family of 18 or so and taking care of toddlers and preschoolers all the time.

I would bet money that if someone were allowed to do an independent evaluation of the kids' education/knowledge levels, they would find that none of them can perform any math functions above arithmetic, they are not well-read, and can probably read and write on about an eighth grade level, some lower.

Deanna said...

My own children have been through 8th grade, and I would venture to guess that not a one of the Duggar children, except perhaps Josiah, is on the 8th grade level, including all the kids who have reportedly finished school (at age 16). A rigorous 8th grade curriculum includes instruction in American history, geography, Algebra, English literature (including books like "A Midsummer's Night's Dream" and "To kill a Mockingbird"), foreign language, life sciences (including study of cells, periodic table of elements, etc).

I would love to see one child in that home, above the age of JoyAnna, who is able to converse on or show proficiency in ANY of the above curriculum areas, which are typical for 8th grade. High school proficiency sets an even higher bar, with European History and Literature, World History, Physics, Chemistry, Earth Science, Calculus.

No way can most students teach themselves these topics.

Cyn said...

Arkansas State law requires that home school students in grades 3 through 9 test every year. Parents/legal guardians that are registered for the current school year will receive written notification of the test dates, times, and site. Testing for grades 3-9 will be held April 5-16, 2010.

They have to pass the tests to continue homeschooling. I know college graduates that can't seem to hold coherent conversations at times, (they are all over MTV reality shows). Can we please put this one to rest. We may not like the way the Duggars educate but like all home schoolers in the state of Arkansas they have to pass yearly testing, the same testing that the public schools have to pass. http://arkansased.org/about/schools/home.html

PS since the home school office for the state is 'right down the road' they could have walekd their change off address to the site, because depending on where they are in April, is where they will test for this year.

luvmybabies said...

"I would bet money that if someone were allowed to do an independent evaluation of the kids' education/knowledge levels, they would find that none of them can perform any math functions above arithmetic, they are not well-read, and can probably read and write on about an eighth grade level, some lower."

"I would venture to guess that not a one of the Duggar children, except perhaps Josiah, is on the 8th grade level, including all the kids who have reportedly finished school (at age 16)."

These are some pretty scary assumptions, but I don't see the support for it. As many may be sick of me mentioning, I have researched extensively the curriculum that the Duggars use and know numerous students who have used it. I can say unequivocally, If they are using it to its potential, those kids are getting solid instruction in higher math all the way up to pre-calc, World & US History and Geography, physics and chemistry & other sciences, and literature, writing and language arts. Some of the material in the higher grades is actually quite difficult. Michelle has said that for years they've had a retired public school science teacher come to their house weekly and do hands-on science with them. Michelle has also clarified that the computer program is for the kids' daily individual studies and that in addition they daily study together the content of the wisdom booklets, which I have also researched. While I'm no fan of Gothard, the wisdom booklets are well done and the recommended literature and books that complement them are excellent.

It simply isn't true that a child cannot become well-educated using the curriculum the Duggars are using. I personally know a family where all three of the children used this very computer curriculum for their entire education. All three of the children went to college, two with scholarships. All three excelled and graduated with bachelor's degrees, one with a master's. All three are well-read, intelligent, and articulate. I know of others who have similar outcomes using this curriculum. Of course this is anecdotal evidence, but I've perused the curriculum myself and found it to be thorough, and I have very high curriculum standards.

I can't speak for what exactly goes on in the Duggar household education-wise, but I can say that their curriculum choices are good ones. If they are using them properly, and supplementing with plenty of good books, literature and discussion, then absolutely the children could be well-educated, and no way would any of them be stunted at an eighth-grade level.

-Nicole

Willow #1 said...

I just wonder why the Duggars can't hire someone to just do a little of the housework etc. I know they had the family friend, Debbie I think, doing some of the homeschooling around the time they moved to Little Rock. I wonder if she is still helping. It seems they could likely find someone they trust enough to just help the girls out a little with some of the housework or something. No doubt they could afford it now - especially with Josie needing extra attention. I think Grandma and the girls probably have all they can handle. They have plenty of experience already to run their own homes. No need to wear them out with it before they even get married. They get it.

I agree with the poster who hopes the girls aren't going home to clean up after or check up on John and Joseph (Joseph is getting cuter every day, huh?).

I like all the kids and think they are quite normal for a family this large. I am surprised how many have criticized James so much. He may be a little more "hyper" than most of his siblings - so is Johannah - but I think he is well within the normal realm as far as I have seen. I think he is really sweet. A child who never "argues" with his mom is a robot child, I'm sorry. JMO. Who would want that?

I think J&A's little baby is a doll!

I also agree with the posters who think Michelle and JB talk about their modesty TOO much. Everyone knows how they feel about that now - let it go and move on to something else. They have a TV show now - perk it up. All said and done, though, I really like the Duggars, especially the kids. They aren't perfect, but would we want them to be?

Ancient of Days said...

If one of the Duggar children ever came into my university classroom, I'd just have to assume they were on a tour. I'd certainly hope that, at least, for I want students that are intellectually curious and can articulate their well-researched views on a wide variety of subjects. The Duggar kids have never been encouraged to think for themselves, and they will suffer in any non-home setting they end up in.

While I'm not big on using letters after my name to give some supposed heft to my opinions, I will end this post with ...

Ancient, PhD

P.S. I usually prefer to let my words, not my "letters," speak for themselves. Not everyone has high regard for academics, and, besides, I think it's not great taste to vaunt advantages that others may not have or even want.

Anonymous said...

Homeschoolers don't have to pass anything in Arkansas. They do have to take state tests, but are not required to have any minimum or maximum score, and the state does not step in and do anything for low scorers. I know that this has been reported before. That would explain why the Duggar kids don't seem to know anything. They really have not had any formal assessment of their homeschooling education at all.

Anonymous said...

The Duggars are no more a good example of how home schooling is done as the college graduates on the MTV reality shows. TV is going to show things are the far end of the spectrum, not the regular average graduates.

The Duggars may very well be very educated and you would should be able to tell by the way they speak but sadly it doesn't come across that way.

Ohio Buckeye said...

"I would bet money that if someone were allowed to do an independent evaluation of the kids' education/knowledge levels, they would find that none of them can perform any math functions above arithmetic, they are not well-read, and can probably read and write on about an eighth grade level, some lower."

**********************************

I'm in full agreement with your post.

IF (and that's a big IF) the Duggars are an accurate depiction and result of home schooling, my somewhat neutral stand on homeschooling has been pushed to the 'terrible idea' category.

The Duggars do NOT inspire. They dishearten and concern some of us.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm, so the State of Arkansas requires children to be tested yearly if homeschooled. And they have to pass to be allowed to continue homeschooling. That's interresting. My state does not require this. So, it would seem that ALL the Duggar children are passing the state test each year since they are all still homeschooled. That's a better track record than the schools have! A teacher with 100% pass rate, year after year, is extreamely rare. Guess the Duggars are atleast as educated as most public schooled children.

Deanna said...

Teachers exist because most people cannot teach themselves curriculum above a certain level. They are there to answer questions, to individualize instruction and to ensure understanding. When I look at a Geometry book, for example, and try to understand how to do proofs, or chemistry or physics, I fail to understand the material, no matter how many times I read it (and I have two masters degrees in the humanities, which are subjects that I master easily).

So, if someone with my level of education has trouble teaching herself, I simply cannot buy that the Duggar children, in that chaotic learning situation with only computers and no books or teachers, is mastering much of anything.

Again, the proof is in the pudding. Those children speak with mushmouths and poor grammar. They are relatively inarticulate, for the most part. They cannot list a favorite book, aside from some Gothard Prince Charming book. No one is pursuing any further education.

The facts pretty much speak for themselves.

I don't doubt at all that some people homeschool beautifully, even using the curriculum the Duggars purport to use. But most successful homeschooling families don't plunk the kids in front of a computer (when they get around to it, in between road trips and horsing around) and call it school. That's a huge difference.

Kat said...

They have to pass the tests to continue homeschooling.

WRONG. They have to take the test, but the individual results are not even provided to the Dept of Education.

"Home school students who are in the required grade levels for which the state mandates norm-referenced testing and who are no more than two (2) years beyond the normal age for the required grade levels must take a standardized norm-referenced test as identified by the Arkansas Department of Education, and the results will be used for reporting purposes only.

"Test results for home school students will be used for reporting purposes only. The parent/guardian will receive the individual student profile. The Arkansas Department of Education will receive the administrative summaries. The administrative summaries will not contain personally identifiable information."

Cyn said...

They really have not had any formal assessment of their homeschooling education at all.

***********************************

The state law says they HAVE been tested every year between the 3rd and 9th year. The state stats also show that the home-schoolers in Arkansas are doing BETTER than most of their public school peers across the nation not just their state.

Arkansas' home school students have outperformed their public school counterparts on standardized tests since 1985. However, this year the gap has widened, with Arkansas home school students scoring in the 61st through 80th percentiles--well above the national average. (2010 reports)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-RzW_FVfUk

I am not saying the Duggar children are not all baby Einsteins but these children are not uneducated or undereducated.

Lazy in their speech definitely, but then again so is 80% of your southern states. We slur letters, we drag them out, hades we make up complete sentences with 3 words: 'I'll tell you what'. The south is also know for using double negatives in sentences, and for our horrible speaking grammar. Are we seriously blaming the Duggar children for speaking the same way 90% of the people they live with, work around, and see out and around their home town?

Comedians for hundreds of years have been poking fun at our manner of speech, the way we do some things, the way we dress, and most of all the way we slow everything down to a crawl including our speech. Why is it side splitting funny when the comedians point it out to us, but horribly wrong when children do it? I hope the south never loses its way of speaking, or the way we do things.... What would the north have to make fun of then?

Anonymous said...

So, homeschoolers have to TAKE the test but are not required to PASS the test. It also looks like there are about 15,000 students who are homeschooled in the state of Arkansas.

Like it or not, the Duggars have a legal right to educate their children any way they see fit. That's what's great about the USA, children are still recognized as belonging to the parents not the government. "There should be something that ensures homeschooled children are getting a good education." I hear this from people all the time. Well, it's their (the Duggars) right to educate anyway they see fit. They can use any curriculum they want, keep any schedule they want, take a month off at a time, exclude certain theories or liturature based on moral objections, etc. That is the current law. And there are more and more people jumping on this bandwagon every year. It could be worse, the Duggars could be "unschooling"!

Deanna said...

Anonymous 12:10

The state of Arkansas does not require homeschoolers to pass ANY test, only to take the test. The homeschooling tests are for statistical purposes only. The Department of Education does not get any individual score report on any individual student, only a compilation of scores for all homeschoolers in each grade. So, no one is monitoring how any homeschooler in AR is doing, whether splendidly or poorly.

So, for all we know, the Duggar kids are flunking each test. Or some could be doing well. We don't know and the state doesn't care.

Those are the facts. Public school kids HAVE to pass in order to graduate. Homeschoolers have no such expectation, and no one monitoring progress at all, except their parents (if they are that type of parent).

Ancient of Days said...

The south is also know for using double negatives in sentences, and for our horrible speaking grammar. Are we seriously blaming the Duggar children for speaking the same way 90% of the people they live with, work around, and see out and around their home town?
_______________

Cyn, if you'll look back at some of my posts, you'll see that I write well and give thought to the vocabulary and grammar I use. My speaking closely mirrors my writing.

Cyn, I am a Southerner. Location doesn't matter so much in how we express ourselves. Education does, as well as a interest in things beyond our own small purview.

Ancient of Days said...

I wonder whether we're spending too much time debating the value of home-based schools as over against public schools? I'd prefer to spend the time and energy discussing what the Duggar children can do with the tools they have or will have at their disposal. We're not going to be able to change--or stabilize--the course of their education, after all.

Just a suggestion ...

Cyn said...

@ Ancient, being a proud member of GRITS I can also write correctly, and use the correct vocabulary. It doesn't on the other hand prevent the word ain't from coming out of my mouth when I am talking to friends and people I know. Or using southern colloquialisms such as "ya'll aren't from here are ya?" to a single individual, who obviously just wants directions. Or to friends in casual conversations "I don't wanna do it, but there ain't no help for it I guess" Yes my English teacher is turning over in her grave as I say it. But I don't type it, or write it into papers, or business copy. Having read the Duggars book I know they (at least the adults) know proper use of grammar they just ain't a gonna use it when talking to friends... That is my only point in my opinion of the Duggars seeming lack of simple grammar when speaking.

Jane in California said...

Ancient of Days - I agree in concept with you on the home school vs. public school issue.

I feel it's completely fair to comment on and/or judge the Duggars homeschooling based on what is shown on the tv show, since they are putting themselves forth as examples others should follow.

It is a bit hard to discuss that sort of thing, without offering contrast or examples when making a point.

However, my goal when I post here is to merely share my thoughts, my viewpoint. I have no illusions that I'm going to change anyone else's opinions and that's fine with me. I do want to assure posters who have a different viewpoint than I do, that when I say something about the Duggars, please don't take it personally. It is not directed at you or your family; it is solely directed at the Duggars.

Jane in California said...

I agree with your thoughts on homeschooling Celestie. If you're going to do it, then you ought to be teaching your children to a higher standard than they could get in their local public school (or at minimum, to the same standard). My concern is that the Duggars seem to be teaching to lower standard and that's a real disservice to their children.

I also agree - women in the Duggars conservative religion are most definitely on a lower rank then men. They are to be "joyful servants" - that's their role. As a girl child, be sure to dress in ways that restrict your movement, emphasize your gender (i.e., the importance of bows on even poor little Josie's tender head), obey even if it means your dad puts you on a pony while you're scared and crying (because we must learn to obey Father in all things, right?), then as we get older, we must work hard around the house as Mother is going to be doing her primary job of getting pregnant as often as possible. Girls must know that their role is pre-defined - helpers in the house, then early marriage, then motherhood as many times over as possible. Then if you survive that, you can become Grandma Duggar, and earn your keep by once again caring for young children and be at the beck and call of your adult son.

I don't mind that the Duggars are on t.v. I doubt they are winning over any converts, because the more you watch them, the worse you feel for the girls, the more irritated you become with the parents, and the more thankful you become for not having the misfortune to have been born into that sort of world.

Word to Mrs. Duggar - just enjoy holding your little baby and stop fiddling with the bows already. It's beyond ridiculous.

luvmybabies said...

"See this is the problem with homeschooling and getting the information from a non-expert such as Michelle and JimBob. First even if your bankruptcy is approved (it can be DENIED) you are generally not let off the hook for child support, taxes, student loans and a few other things. You can also reaffirm debts. And you may have to sell some of your stuff. Also your credit is better after a bankruptcy b/c you generally can't file for another 7 years and it is EASIER to get a car loan than before you filed for bankruptcy because most, if not all, of your debt has been discharged!"


My son is 6 years old, and if I'd thrown these kinds of details and complexities at him I'd have lost him completely. He needed a basic understanding of what bankruptcy is and I gave it to him. As he gets older of course he'll be able to understand more.

It is a fact that declaring bankruptcy devastates one's credit, making it nearly impossible to qualify for a mortgage for a very long time. Bankruptcy has serious consequences, and I wanted my son to understand this.

I don't have to be a law expert to teach my son this, or anything else. A certified elementary teacher isn't guaranteed to know anything at all about bankruptcy, among other things, and a teacher's answer to my son's question would have probably been about the same.

As I recall, in the "bankruptcy law episode" with Joy, Michelle was briefly explaining to her basics similar to this. Not a big deal.

-Nicole

Ohio Buckeye said...

"I doubt they are winning over any converts, because the more you watch them, the worse you feel for the girls, the more irritated you become with the parents, and the more thankful you become for not having the misfortune to have been born into that sort of world."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I agree. What were once relatively neutral views on such extreme fundamentalism have been readjusted to the negative end of my opinion spectrum.

The Duggars and their lifestyle are anything BUT 'encouraging'. Conversely IMO it is sad and frightening that 19 humans are being cloned to be Version 2.0 of their parents.

Anon 3:14 said...

"So, for all we know, the Duggar kids are flunking each test. Or some could be doing well. We don't know and the state doesn't care."

-------

Exactly. The results of the state education tests probably come in the Duggars postal mail, and from there it goes to the "round file" (trash can) uopened.

Anon 3:14 said...

I think this is the episode where Josh said, "we have a used car lot, so sometimes we have money, and sometimes we don't".

Well, where is all of your TLC money going ?

If you aren't making enough money to support your wife and baby, then perhaps you should look into another line of work besides having your family life filmed for television.

Jane in California said...

I think this is the episode where Josh said, "we have a used car lot, so sometimes we have money, and sometimes we don't".

Thank goodness for that homeschool education, which seems to be coming in real handy.

luvmybabies said...

" women in the Duggars conservative religion are most definitely on a lower rank then men. They are to be "joyful servants" - that's their role. As a girl child, be sure to dress in ways that restrict your movement, emphasize your gender (i.e., the importance of bows on even poor little Josie's tender head), obey even if it means your dad puts you on a pony while you're scared and crying (because we must learn to obey Father in all things, right?), then as we get older, we must work hard around the house as Mother is going to be doing her primary job of getting pregnant as often as possible. Girls must know that their role is pre-defined - helpers in the house, then early marriage, then motherhood as many times over as possible. Then if you survive that, you can become Grandma Duggar, and earn your keep by once again caring for young children and be at the beck and call of your adult son."


Where is all this coming from? This must be a case of perspective and seeing what one wants to see. I see the Duggars being gracious enough to allow Grandma to live with them so she doesn't have to live alone if she doesn't want to, not being at her son's "beck and call." I see that the boys are taught to joyfully serve each other same as the girls, albeit in different ways, no sexism there. I serve my husband, he serves me, in different ways. I don't see that the skirts and dresses restrict the girls' movement - the little girls are all over the place, with leggings underneath as necessary, and I think waaaay too much is being made of the hair bows. They're cute and look pretty on the little girls' heads, end of story. Putting Jennifer on the pony while she is crying, and saying it's because "we have to learn to obey Father at all times" is a bizarre stretch. I see the girls as being cherished, respected and loved by their parents, not a "lower rank". And, I also don't see the parents telling the girls, "you have to do everything the way we've done it, or else." What could they possibly have to hold over their heads? The fact is, we just don't have that much control over our children, especially as adults. I was reading recently an interview with Michelle, and she mentioned that she didn't know if the girls were going to continue with the skirt-wearing after they leave home or not. She knows that her children will do what they choose to do. If any of those girls wants to become a trouser-wearing world traveler who eschews marriage and motherhood, or anything else, they will, and JB and Michelle know it. I personally doubt they're foolish enough to try to make their children do anything as adults.

We're seeing the same behaviors with totally different perspectives, that's for sure.


-Nicole

Jane in California said...

We're seeing the same behaviors with totally different perspectives, that's for sure.

Yes we are Nicole. Which makes this the world as we know it - filled with differing opinions and beliefs.

I don't see the boys having to be "joyful servants" anywhere near as much as the girls do. Girls: cook three meals a day and clean up afterwards; responsible for full time care of their younger siblings, must rise in the night if their "buddy" needs them; do most of the laundry; plus must attend school "8 hours a day" (I personally think that figure is greatly exaggerated, but I believe that's what they said); do the grocery shopping. I'm pretty sure they also change the beds, clean the house, including their parents' bedroom.

Boys - attend homeschool; older boys fix things around the house or chop wood; younger boys put their toys away (? maybe?), and each boy has a "jurisdiction." But it's nowhere near the 24 hour on-duty stuff the girls deal with.

That's why I say the women folk are treated less fairly (unequally) than the menfolk. They must do the bulk of the work - it is expected of them in their role as the females. Uneven division of labor based on gender is unfair.

Sharla said...

Closed for heading way, way, way off topic of the episode.