O Come All Ye Duggars - New Episode 2/3/09

The Duggar family celebrates Christmas by decorating and riding in a float for an annual Christmas parade.

55 comments:

Mommy in PA said...

This should be ibnteresting to see. I'm sure they will actually have some family/friends with them for Christmas unlike the Gosselins who don't bother with anyone but themselves.

Old North State said...

According to the Wild Wilderness Drive-through Safari website (where the Duggars went to "volunteer"), some of their animals were used for the Duggar family float.

Cee said...

This episode just proved to me that Jim Bob loves making a spectacle of his family. He is so weird...Jim Bob if you don't like animals you never should have been the one on the camel...but I'm sure he wanted to be the center of attention.

I really have no pity for them potentially being misrepresented by TLC, they hand out pictures to strangers, go on international tv and put on concerts in walmart...clearly they want to be in the public eye

MomOfThree said...

I really liked the way Michelle handled the incident when she and some of the older kids were going to register to be part of the parade and Johannah ran after the van. Michelle stopped the van, spoke to Johannah and waited for JimBob to come down the road to take her back home. It would have been very easy for Michelle to just let Johannh go with them; after all, they were only going to sign up and there were more than enough older kids to care for her. However, Michelle explained that this is part of Johannah's learning discipline and dealing with disappointment. What wonderful parenting!

Children are experts in figuring out that tears and tantrums will allow them to get what they want and by being taught from the beginning that this will not work is what every child needs to learn. Not that it is easy to do. It is so much easier to just give in and not have to deal with the carrying-on but it only makes it worse in the long run. I am guilty of allowing this, too, but now that my kids are school age and plenty old enough the understand, I am firm on this issue. Enough is enough. It is still not easy, I am met with resistance and I am very, very sorry that I did not begin this process when they were toddlers.

I know that I can't always shield them from life's disappointments, nor can I "fix" every problem that they will face, so it is crucial that I help them acquire the coping skills necessary to do this and the sooner, the better. I do teach my kids that a lot of things in life can be worked out and there are exceptions to things, but there are times when there is nothing that you can do about a situation but accept it and try to make the best of it.

As a parent, I want to "fix" all my kids' hurts and want them to have what they want and be happy. But what happens when someday the world does not treat them this way? What happens if they don't get into the college they want; get the job they want; or the boyfriend/girlfriend they want and I can't "make it all better" for them? It's better now they learn that things don't always go their way and it's okay. The self-discipline they have will help get them through it.

Old North State said...

The Duggar Family book-signing at Wal-Mart made me heave. They are marketing their family just like J&K. The Duggars singing "Silent Night" in Wal-Mart was irritating also. I think Jim Bob is a master at keeping his family in the spotlight. It was nice in the beginning to see their daily life but the weekly Duggar showcasing is too much!

mamawama said...

Drew,
If the Duggars got their children an Xbox or Nintendo, and let them focus on their presents and forget about the "reason for the season" then they would just be a regular ol' family with too many kids. The interesting thing about this family is that they chose to raise their kids differently from the norm, and it is working! BTW, I am a little offended at your adjective choice of "crap" to describe the Bible.

Drew said...

I'm sorry if you were offended by my wording. Maybe that's the reason my post was removed. I'm not saying that it's not okay to be raised differently from the norm or that it is wrong to emphasize religion in your children's lives. I'm saying that I think their lifestyle is unfair to the children and I think they are setting them up for being socially handicapped later on in life. If the children want nothing but to grow up and replicate the lives of their parents then they will be just fine. If they want to go to college and get a real education then they are going to have to interact with other people who aren't like them. Maybe that's why Josh chose not to go to law school, fear of leaving the Duggar compound and being around people who he was raised to think are evil? Can you blame him?

Anonymous said...

I really think that the Duggars are doing an admirable job of raising their children, regardless of the size of their family. I definitely disagree with many of their beliefs, but having been raised in a religious family and educated in a religious atmosphere, I understand that at a certain point everyone decides for themselves what does or does not make sense. As for the situation being "unfair" to the kids, well, I went to a private Christian elementary, middle, and high school, as well as a Christian university and was taught essentially the same facts about science. And most families struggle with paying for college - at least the Duggars are teaching their kids responsible money management. When I watch the show, I see happy kids who love and respect their parents and parents who truly care about each childs happiness and wellbeing, which is refreshing. Yes, they're sheltered, but ultimately every parent tries to pass on their values to their children, so who are we to judge? And yes, I do agree that Jim Bob can be incredibly pompous and irritating :)

mamawama said...

Jimbob acts like a goofy kid sometimes and I wonder if it embarasses Michelle? He proposed to her again on the pier, and she just giggled, and then he was goofy to her again when they were looking for diamonds.

I don't think the Duggar kids are unsocialized or lacking education. They are well spoken in front of the camera, and I don't think the Duggars teach that others are evil. Many kids change their minds about what they want to "be when they grow up". I changed my major about 10 times! Just because Josh decided to get married instead of going to college, doesn't mean it was because of some underlying feelings of fear.

Also, I haven't seen the Duggars SAT scores, but most homeschooled kids score higher than their public school counterparts. To say that homeschooled kids are not educated shows that someone hasn't done their homework on the issue. I believe the Duggars also graduate their kids at 16?

Drew said...

"most families struggle with paying for college - at least the Duggars are teaching their kids responsible money management"
________________________

Okay....But do they encourage them to go to college?? Do they offer to pay for college??? And if they don't, we all know they're strictly against debt so I don't see them assisting their children in getting a loan for college.

And mamawama,
I haven't seen their SAT scores either but that's because they probably don't take the SAT. That test is for kids that are going to college. They are taught at their kitchen table by someone who doesn't strike me as very intelligent. So what if they graduate at 16? That's the extent of their education and that's sad. Am I the only one that feels this way!!??

Cee said...

Drew--I agree, I doubt that they ever have taken the sat nor are they intending to. I hope Anna infulences some of them to go to college...it says on her and Josh's website she has a bachelors...

Honestly most people I know have taken on some kind of student loans...while debt is never good student loans are not a big deal and they promote responsiblity in college students. Plus there are so many scholarships and grants out there...I hope some of them go to college. I really do. Again I agree with Drew, it is sad

Sharla said...

Drew, thank you for rewording. Yes, there was a part of the comment that was objectionable. Thanks again.

Anonymous said...

I just read somewhere - long lost in my memory now - where Jim Bob says that he expects some of the kids will go to college, but he wants them to go debt free. It is possible to do as the godson of the next door neighbors is doing just that. They're Southern Baptist and subscribe to some of the beliefs. Community college first while working and living at home can allow for covering the minimal costs of community college plus saving some for the last two years or taking three years or so to do each two years while working more. If it's more important to them to be debt free when they graduate, then they have to look at options like that. It can be done.

Sidney said...

MomOfThree said...
I really liked the way Michelle handled the incident when she and some of the older kids were going to register to be part of the parade and Johannah ran after the van. Michelle stopped the van, spoke to Johannah and waited for JimBob to come down the road to take her back home. It would have been very easy for Michelle to just let Johannh go with them; after all, they were only going to sign up and there were more than enough older kids to care for her. However, Michelle explained that this is part of Johannah's learning discipline and dealing with disappointment. What wonderful parenting!

--------------------------

Mom of Three, I totally agree. I don't think any one of those kids could be called a spoiled brat. Michelle is a wonderful mother. I think they are doing some dumb things because of TLC finding activities to send them on, but I think they are raising wonderful citizens. I don't think we will ever see one of the teenagers pregnant before marriage, wasted on drugs, tatoed (how do you spell that! LOL!) or wasting time in a tanning bed. I don't think we will ever see any of them spending a day in a spa or driving while texting, or interrupting others with their cell phones.
Those kids have the upbringing of early-day farm kids, kids who learned how to work and learned that they had to take care of animals and crops or there would be bad consequences.
Jim Bob annoys me, gag me while he sprays his hair, but he provides for his family VERY well, and treats his family very respectfully.
The Duggars could be doing lots of dumb things that aren't important, but they are raising good citizens, and the world is the better for it.

bugsy said...

I don't think we will ever see one of the teenagers pregnant before marriage, wasted on drugs, tatoed (how do you spell that! LOL!) or wasting time in a tanning bed. I don't think we will ever see any of them spending a day in a spa or driving while texting, or interrupting others with their cell phones.

Interesting how often the Duggar children are measured by what they don't do now, or what they won't be doing in the future. I'm glad they won't aren't doing drugs now, nor will they or having babies out of wedlock, but it's sad how narrowly their identities seem to have been pegged. What would their annual Christmas letter look like?

"So many accomplishments this past year, praise Jesus! Jessa didn't drink or do any drugs. Jinger hasn't gotten herself knocked up. Jana hasn't had any body piercings. Jill hasn't been dating anyone. Josiah hasn't listened to any mainstream music. Joseph only watched a little bit of TV."

Old North State said...

I've tried to find where I read that Anna's degree came from a Gothard-approved, distance learning, independent study, online-type quickie college but to no avail. They have never mentioned where she "studied" on the show. I'll keep hunting.

Someone else mentioned that the kids are well-spoken on camera and I disagree. I think they are now comfortable speaking on camera, but their grammar is less than stellar and they often make the same mistakes that Michelle does. I think the boys try to emulate Jim Bob's pompous way of speaking with big words and overblown explanations with the same result----yawn.

mamawama said...

Of course the Duggar kids are going to speak like their parents, most kids do. Just because they aren't "stellar" doesn't mean they are ignorant, or backwards, or can't function in society. They live in Arkansas, give them a break.

I think that because the Duggars aren't worried about their kids doing drugs, getting knocked up, or a whole host of other bad things, they can focus on other qualities that they do want them to know. Like: serving others, loving other people, getting along with people, etc. I think their Christmas letter would look more like this:

Jessa helped pass out clothes to the homeless this year. Jinger and Jill babysat for the battered womens shelter. Josiah is planning on volunteering at the children's hospital next year.

Sex, drugs and rock and roll are so far off their radar, it's not even a thought for them.

Dee Dee said...

All this glorifying of big families worries me. I can see how fun it would look to a young couple but how awful if as the kids grow uptheir parents just can't afford the 4-digit weekly grocery bills ... What then?

mamawama said...

I know a lot of big families and they see their children as their luxuries. They don't go on cruises, or buy bigger cars, but they do manage to feed them and care for them. Most Quiverfull families are against government aid because they want to show that God is providing for them. Many are into gardening or hunting. They buy in bulk. Many are actually very granola types, and they buy grain in bulk, grind it themselves, and make fresh bread for their families.

The young couple would easily afford the groceries and usually incomes grow as people grow older.

MissAmerica said...

The Duggers are a delight to watch & ones who genuinely show us the Christian values and beliefs from those who are born again believers. The term "Christian," is just too losely used. But, the Duggers convey concern for others, have respect to each other and Michelle - here is a beautiful example of grace & gentleness & quietness of spirit - which our Lord so loves and admires. The Wedding was lovely, not with all the "slicked up, glossy, big $ production." The Duggers didn't give in to the TLC suggestion of having alcohol. I'm sure TLC would have bought out ABC for the liquor. And, the Christmas, "O Come All Ye Duggers," conveyed the real message of Christmas - Jesus is the reason. UNLIKE the pseudo display by Jon/Kate w/the Peabody Stay & "slick" gifts, who are 2 that do NOT portray the Christian values they purport to have - again, the camera does not lie but people can & DO! The Duggers are commendable and must use caution any time they are getting airtime.

angdag said...

"I haven't seen their SAT scores either but that's because they probably don't take the SAT. That test is for kids that are going to college. They are taught at their kitchen table by someone who doesn't strike me as very intelligent. So what if they graduate at 16? That's the extent of their education and that's sad. Am I the only one that feels this way!!??"

I was curious about some of this as well. It addresses some of these questions in their book. The kids 'main' curriculum is Switched on Schoolhouse which is used by many homeschoolers. It is a computer program that uses videos, animated lessons and assignments to teach the kids their core curriculum. The 'School of the Dining Room Table' part of their school is mainly used for Character Study and Bible Study which I have no doubt Michelle can handle! They do also discuss 'regular' school stuff, like the example in the book was learning about the parts and functions of the eye but the bulk of their 'serious' studies are done via Switched on Schoolhouse.

After they have completed high school the book states the kids are encouraged to take a few years and explore career choices before deciding whether they will attend college or not. Many homeschoolers objective in their children's future is to help them find a career path they will truly love and enjoy, not ship them off to college when they complete high school b.c 'that's what they're supposed to do' or they will never be 'successful' without it. The Duggars seem to follow this same model. The kids are encouraged to seek out professionals in the area they would like to pursue and job shadow them and spend time learning more about what they career would entail before taking on the financial burden of college. If the kids decide to have a career that doesn't require college and can sustain a family they are encouraged to do that as well.

None of which I have a problem with personally, especially b.c we are paying off 10's of thousands of dollars in student loans for my husband in a career field that he is knowledgeable in and excels at but doesn't feel all that passionately about and wishes he had thought through some of these things himself.

I don't see why it's "sad" that they won't all be going to college? College isn't a requirement for a happy, contented and successful life.

mamawama said...

Do you think public school would be better? If you look at the scores and statistics, kids in public schools aren't doing so well. There are some pretty dumb teachers out there as well. ( Not all teachers, but I had several growing up who had a nut or two loose)

I think that kids fall through the educational cracks everyday. The Duggars love their kids. No one is going to have more drive for them to succeed than their parents.

I'm not sure how they could be getting a better education? When a public schooler is lacking and needing help, they put him in a smaller " special" class. Homeschooling is all about that method of education, the tutorial style.

machinegunsmom said...

MomOfThree: in regards to Michelle's discipline methods, there was also an incident when they went to NYC and were playing in Central Park; I THINK it was Johannah who was misbehaving in some way and Michelle got down to her level and was speaking very softly to her and telling her that that wasn't the correct way to get someone's attention or something. I love how gentle and easy-going she is, in STARK contrast to Kate Gosselin, who is always shrieking. Much like her children.

I wish I knew how to be one of these soft, gentle mothers because I know children really respond to it and in turn become equally easygoing.

momof4disneyholics said...

I am mesmerized by watching the Duggars. It is absolutely amazing to me how they run their household. I wonder if their house was that well organized when they had nothing but little ones and no big kids to help out and do everything? I think I remembered reading something years ago about Michelle getting help with her laundry early on.
I do admire some of the things that they do. The debt free thing doesn't impress me because they came from money so it isn't that hard when you get help in your early adulthood. The thing about them not paying taxes on their house is so darn shady to me too, and I feel like they deliberately forget to mention that when they are declaring how debt free they are.
All the kids are interchangeable, none of them really seem to have personalities of their own, maybe Jinger, but I think at this point TLC knows she has a fan base and is making her do her eye rolls for the camera so that they can get the reaction.
Even after saying all that, I do admire how well taken care of the children are. Everyone seems fed and happy. I really wish those children were exposed to other things in life though so that they could make choices on their own.
It was sickening to me that Jim Bob told Josh he could kiss Anna for the first time.

Alli Byers said...

Momof4disneyholics--

Where are you getting this information from regarding that Michelle and Jim Bob "came from money"? I've never heard anything about their families having lots of money, but maybe I missed that. Also, I remember reading that they DO pay taxes on their home. Can someone verify this for me?

MomOfThree said...

I'm not sure about Michelle, but I have read (and I think it's in their book)that JimBob grew up in a family where finances were very tight. His mom worked off and on to help make ends meet and that's actually how he and Michelle happened to go on their first date. Mrs Duggar was managing a frozen yogurt shop where Michelle worked and this led to JimBob asking Michelle to a function at his school. Growing up with very little, JimBob probably learned the value of a dollar, hard work and appreciation for what you earned.

Michelle is the baby of a large family, many years younger than her oldest siblings. I believe she has nieces/nephews her age and older. I think her sister said that their parents had essentially "two" families; the older children and then many years later began again with Michelle and the sibling before her. By the time she came along, her parents were older, had less children at home and maybe were in a better financial position than when they were raising her older siblings, so her childhood may have been more comfortable than JimBob's.

I don't think either of them came from money at all.

Marie said...

Jessa helped pass out clothes to the homeless this year. Jinger and Jill babysat for the battered womens shelter. Josiah is planning on volunteering at the children's hospital next year.


Then why do we NEVER see them doing anything for anyone else but their own family (and feeding animals bread doesn't count.

While it's great to love your family and do things together, let's not forget their entire focus has been ONLY their family. Not working in shelters, or helping the poor, or evening delivering tator tot casserole to shut ins. Zippo.

CarrieC said...

Marie... That was a very good question.

I can answer that as I worked with the Duggars on the specials...Jim Bob SPECIFICALLY had it written into their contract (at least for two of the specials) that there was to be NO footage even taped of them on a certain Tues and a certain Sat when they DID go deliver home cooked meals to 8 shut ins and when Michelle and the 3 of the older girls went to serve food at a battered woman's shelter.

Just thought you should know :)

College Grad and Proud of It said...

"I don't see why it's "sad" that they won't all be going to college? College isn't a requirement for a happy, contented and successful life".

How happy can a person be, living in a homeless shelter because they never got any kind of education that would allow them to support themselves?

WhitneySmith said...

How happy can a person be, living in a homeless shelter because they never got any kind of education that would allow them to support themselves?

Although I do think that college is a good idea and there are a lot of good jobs that can open up for you with a college degree that is a bit extreme. I know of a few people who have lived their entire lives with kids and no college degree. My boyfriend parents for one. No, they aren't rich. But they certainly do not live in a homeless shelter and they were able to raise three kids to well-adjusted adults (who all chose to go to college because they had the ability to do so).

Parsley said...

Where shall I begin with the people I know who have zero college but fine lives with homes and children? My housekeeper, my organizer, the plumber, the esthetician, my stylist, the manicurist, the furnace repairmen, the fence intaller, my gardeners, and four of my neighbors who worked in trades making custom aircraft parts, installing cable, or owning their own businesses in shipping to foreign countries or doing appliance repair.

That's quite a few in just in a few seconds. Truly only about 25% of the population needs a college degree to perform their job or seek higher education.

DaisyGirl said...

JimBob is just a huge dork. Watching him prance around in that dress was ridiculous. He SO wanted to be king of everything.

Not to put the name of a brilliant show in the same sentence as a comment about the Duggars, but the phrase "arrested development" seems to describe JimBob and Michelle perfectly. She seems like an empty headed cheerleader, and he seems like a total dork who tries to be funny and wants to be popular. They make me groan every time I see them on TV! Yet, I still watch. Ugh.

mamawama said...

If everyone who didn't attend college went to live in homeless shelters, can you imagine how crowded they would be? That is such a leap.

I think our country worships "education". It seems to be the top priority for most parents. There was a new study out last year that claimed that 80% of kids who went into college as Bible believing Christians came out without their faith intact. Most colleges focus on a liberal viewpoint.

So, if your main goal is for your kids to be Christians and serve God for their whole lives, you are probably going to steer them away from most colleges. In light of that study, I am guessing that is one reason the Duggars aren't pushing college on their kids.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I really thought the small donkey was so cute. They did a great job for the Christmas parade and it was generous of them to hand out candy.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Regarding testing, Michelle has said that she gives them a standarized test each year and that they score above grade level.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"
I don't see why it's "sad" that they won't all be going to college? College isn't a requirement for a happy, contented and successful life."

I totally believe that. I have over 12 years of college and my husband does not even have an AA. He has a good job and has learned on the job as an aprentice. He has great work habbits. Our daughter is in her last year of high school and wants to take a year off before going to any type of school. I rather have her wait and decide to go to college or a vocational school after she knows what she wants to do. Right now she has no passions and I think it is important to work in an area of passion.

My life time friend has three adult children all went to an expensive college and none of them have good paying jobs. The oldest is on her second master's in an area she has NO desire to work in. She must have over 70 grand in student loans and most likely will not get a job soon in any of the areas she has a degree in. She goes from one degree to the next mainly to avoid paying off the student loans as long as you are in school they do not have to be paid. I think they have six months after they take their last class before they have to make payments. Her daughter always seems to be enrolled in some classes just when it is about time to start paying off the loan. One day will be pay day and I doubt if any of the degrees she has will land her a job as she did not take any courses in an area where she has passion. Basically she has made going to school her career living off of her parents and student loans while have baby after baby. And yes she is married and her husband too is taking out loans and going to school and most likely will not work in the area he is studying.

So I agree that college is not for everyone. None of the children of my friend have a work ethic and most likely end up living with their parents till they are at least 30. And yes, this family if very religious too but "education" seems to be more of their god than the God who they profess.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

AS I am reading this thread I read again someone stating that the Duggars do not pay taxes on their house. That is something I have read on other forums. Some think that cause they hold "church" in their home they do not pay taxes. Yet, some of looked up the property and found out they pay some $11,000 a year on property taxes. If you use your home for church and get some tax break it does not take away all of the tax liabilty. You still have to pay taxes, maybe a little less but you still pay. Why do some just take it as "fact" that they do not pay property tax.

At least in my state property tax goes to the public schools. This family does not use the public schools so they are not only paying property taxes as much as $11,000 a year but they are not taking advantage of using the taxes that they pay to support the public schools in their area.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

carrie, thanks for sharing "Marie... That was a very good question.

I can answer that as I worked with the Duggars on the specials...Jim Bob SPECIFICALLY had it written into their contract (at least for two of the specials) that there was to be NO footage even taped of them on a certain Tues and a certain Sat when they DID go deliver home cooked meals to 8 shut ins and when Michelle and the 3 of the older girls went to serve food at a battered woman's shelter."

I knew that they did a lot of charity work. Most homeschoolers do. I was part of a homeschooling group for years and they all did work for charity. I see that he only had them film them giving time to the animals. That shows he has respect for others who have needs. He does not want to promote his chariable family. When we give to others we are not to boast, not having the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing.

Drew said...

ANGDAG - "After they have completed high school the book states the kids are encouraged to take a few years and explore career choices before deciding whether they will attend college or not. Many homeschoolers objective in their children's future is to help them find a career path they will truly love and enjoy, not ship them off to college when they complete high school b.c 'that's what they're supposed to do' or they will never be 'successful' without it. The Duggars seem to follow this same model. The kids are encouraged to seek out professionals in the area they would like to pursue and job shadow them and spend time learning more about what they career would entail before taking on the financial burden of college."
______________
Okay this is such a wonderful idea but think of how unrealistic it is. The world isn't a small little town where everyone has their hand out to help you. These kids need to go out and get a real education while they figure out what they want to do. The idea of "job shadowing" for a few years is absurd. Say little Josiah wants to be a doctor...Oh I'm sure the local heart surgeon won't mind him sitting in while he's discussing a medical procedure with one of his patients...not to mention the patient being okay with it. Okay so that won't work....if he's interested in law maybe the local prosecutor will let him assist him in trying a capital murder case. Life has harsh realities and sometimes it's best to find that out the hard way.

Drew said...

mamawama - "I think our country worships "education". It seems to be the top priority for most parents. There was a new study out last year that claimed that 80% of kids who went into college as Bible believing Christians came out without their faith intact. Most colleges focus on a liberal viewpoint.
______________
Are you saying its a bad thing to "worship" education??? I don't see the sense in that viewpoint unless you ofcourse don't have one. Education provokes thought and causes people question things. This is why the Duggars don't push it on their kids.. they don't want them to think for themselves they just want them to obey rules. Mama, please explain how colleges focus on a "liberal viewpoint", feel free to give examples from your own experiences.

I invite everyone on here to bash me for saying this (it's going to happen anyway) but I think homeschooled kids are getting a subpar education. They might do okay on their standardized tests but practical things like social skills cannot be measured by bubbling in the right letter. You cannot learn everything you need to know about everything from your mommy at the kitchen table. I have a degree in Finance and my mom would be the last person on earth to teach anyone how to read a balance sheet and calculate a company's earnings. Although she was smart enough to direct me outside of our home to people that could teach me these things I wanted to learn. Look I'm sure there's plenty of kids that were homeschooled that are smarter and better off than I am but I bet none of them were schooled by Michelle Duggar while munching on tater-tot casserole.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

What is the hurry to go to college when you may not know what you really want to be. I am sure if he had a child that really KNEW he wanted to be a doctor Jim Bob may have him take courses at the community college right away. Not too many kids know what they want to me. I have one child and she has NO clue.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Just because your own mother may not have been able tgo prepare you for life does not mean Mrs Duggar can not. Do not project your mother limits on this person.

Drew said...

Just because your own mother may not have been able tgo prepare you for life does not mean Mrs Duggar can not. Do not project your mother limits on this person.

_____________

Are you serious with this comment??Clearly you missed the point. Everyone has limits. Michelle is limited to getting pregnant and delegating household chores. You mean to tell me that you learned everything you know from your mother?

mamawama said...

Drew,
Thank you for your thought provoking views. I think the Duggars would say that it is wrong to worship anything other than God. I actually have two degrees, elem ed and nursing, but I do not worship education. If you have sat in any Poly Sci class in a public college, you will know that it is taught from a liberal view point. There are very few conservative professors. So, when students graduate they leave with a different world view from when they entered. If you happen to take any of the sociology type classes, you will see a great slant toward the left. Are you really going to dispute this? Do you think colleges are conservative? It's not about "thinking for yourself" it is about changing their world view away from a Christian perspective.

About homeschooling, your comment on socialization was um, interesting. Homeschoolers are actually better socialized than your average kid because they do not spend all day communicating with kids who are the exact same age as themselves. They interact more with adults, and many age groups. They are also not bullied, which leads to higher self esteem. They are able to pursue their own interests and not have to stay with a class that plods along at a snails pace. They aren't spending countless hours waiting for teachers to get control over their classrooms, changing classes, and contemplating notes and which boy/girl is the cutest. They are more focused on the books.

I have a degree in elem. ed. Teachers are given books, and they make up lesson plans. You plod along through the books that you are given, and add some hands on things along the way. Michelle can get the same books. I am sure she can read what the teacher is supposed to do. It is not rocket science. And, if the kids do want to learn rocket science, there are homeschool classes that you can take, co-ops where parents pool their skills and teach different topics. What is the difference between sitting at a dining room table, or sitting in a classroom?

mamawama said...

Drew said:

Are you serious with this comment??Clearly you missed the point. Everyone has limits. Michelle is limited to getting pregnant and delegating household chores. You mean to tell me that you learned everything you know from your mother?


Are you really suggesting that Michelle can only get pregnant and clean the house? Puhlease. If a teacher is pregnant and does her dishes does that mean she should give up her teaching career? Michelle isn't limiting herself to things she can remember from school, she has BOOKS just like regular teachers, that tell her what needs to be covered next. How is a public schooler getting a better education?

Susan said...

Students who go to public school are being taught by professionals who have been trained in not only the subject matter they teach but methods, pedagogy, best practices, different styles of teaching, etc. Teaching is not just opening a book and regurgitating the material. And yes, I am a teacher.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I too am a teacher. I spent 20 years in the public school system and presently am back subbing. The years I felt I was able to do the most were the seven years I homeschooled as I had unlimited resources and time to work with the few children I had under my care. When I worked in the ps system I was limited in time and resources.

Retired Teacher said...

Students who go to public school are being taught by professionals who have been trained in not only the subject matter they teach but methods, pedagogy, best practices, different styles of teaching, etc. Teaching is not just opening a book and regurgitating the material. And yes, I am a teacher.


That's the ideal world. I've taught and now I'm retired. Way too many teachers just follow the guide in the book. The parents who say that's what teachers do are not without foundation as it happens and I'm sure these parents have seen that. My own kids have had teachers that I would have been delighted if they had even done that much. I'm sure those teachers hated me.

Mint said...

The problem with the arguments presented here about home school vs. public education is that they're both right and wrong at the same time.

There have been times where a homeschooled child has been less equipped to deal with the real world, despite all of the book learning that child has obtained. There have also been times where a home schooled child has actually learn below average than s/he should (it's much rarer today, but it does happen).

In the public school system, there have been children who have not lived up to their potential - both in academics and social skills - but there have also been children who have excelled at either or both.

With home schooling, each child gets more individualized attention. In the public school system, a child will be exposed to various different points of views and personalities and learn to interact with the rest of the world - not just their immediate family - on a daily basis.

For education, with home schooling, you've got flexibility on how and when things are learned. However, it's mostly limited to what your parent-teacher knows or has the time to learn. If your parents both need to work to keep a home and you well - or even if your parent-teacher has a lot of other things to do in the day - then have them educate themselves and teaching you can become near-impossible.

With public schools, they have elective classes that let students learn art or sports that they might not have experienced at home. Personally, if not for my public education, I wouldn't have learned badminton or ceramics or how to paint or sing or act.
So what does this all mean? I think it means that BOTH systems can work and BOTH systems can fail. I think home schooling has the potential to be better than the public school system, but it truly depends on the person who is teaching you and why that person is teaching you. There have been parents who simply want to control their child. And I think the public school system has the potential to be better than home schooling if they were able to afford more teachers, materials, books, and different ways of learning, but is currently hurting very much.

(Side note: has anyone heard of the new math programs they’re trying out in some high schools? Instead of teaching the different kinds of math separately, they’re combining them and making the classes more student-and-project orientated, instead of teacher-and-lecture. So far, most students have been able to score higher on the math section of the SATs while not developing the math-phobias many students gained from the more traditional way of learning math.)

And as for the whole college thing – it’s not for everyone. A sorry if that clashes with some people’s views, but it’s true. Some people don’t want to learn, some people want to learn a skill or craft that don’t need additional classes and some people have callings to something other than higher education. However, college should be an option (not an obligation) for everyone and if you’re a parent, I seriously hope that you’re letting your child know all of the benefits college can provide but also let them know that you aren’t going to force them to go.

Also, as for the whole “colleges ruin a person’s faith,” that’s bull. On my college, there is a chapel that holds services of several faiths, has Bible discussion groups, and several other religious services. On other colleges I have been to, if there isn’t a chapel, then there are definitely the religious services. A person is definitely more exposed to other points of views and believes in college, no doubt. But if a person questions his or her faith after a class, then 1) that person’s faith isn’t as strong as he or she thought when it wasn’t tested, 2) that person wasn’t exposed enough to the world as a child to understand that it’s okay to know about different views, or 3) that person found some truth in the other point of view and agreed more with that.

For the person who claimed that colleges ruin a person’s “Christian’s faith,” I’ll have you know that I’ve known plenty of Christians who came to and left college as such. I’ve known people to be converted to Christianity while in college as well. But none of these Christians rely on ignorance or fear to keep their faith.

mamawama said...

When I said Christians lose faith at college, I was referring to a recent study. You can read more about it here:
http://illuminatelv.blogspot.com/2006/08/losing-their-faith-in-college.html

There are many articles on the internet about this study. I just picked this one because it has a nice chart.

My point is that the Duggar children are getting a decent education at home. One of the reasons they may not be pushing college might be because of this study.

Sally said...

"My point is that the Duggar children are getting a decent education at home."


How can the Duggar children possibly be getting a decent education? How can you homeschool children from pre-school age to high school with just one "teacher"? Do you really think Michelle is giving each of her kids the attention they need to succeed?

As for college, I find it hardly likely that Jim Bob and Michelle will allow ANY of their kids to attend a real college, Christian or otherwise, except perhaps an online Gothard-approved program of course.

Drew said...

Mint, great post I think you make some really good points. And for Sally's post I agree with you completely. There are pros and cons for public school but one of the pros is that you have diversification in your teaching staff. I agree that each teacher does not have the same interest in a child's education that a mother would, but if the child is willing to learn I think it's better to have a math teacher who is good at math, a science teacher who undestands science, etc.

Mama, you made a point about bullying going on in schools. While I'm not a proponent for bullying, I think it's a social experience that you can't shelter a child from their whole life. Kids can be mean, just like adults can and most kids learn this at a young age and are perhaps stronger for having gone through that. No mother wants their child to be bullied but what happens when they go off to college or move outside of the house and someone god forbid is mean to them for the first time? How are they going to handle that? Imagine what outcasts the Duggar kids would be in most settings outside of their picture perfect little world where everyone is sweet to each other.

mamawama said...

There are roughly 2 million homeschooled kids, and they have scored higher than their public score peers on the SAT and ACT for atleast 8 years now. That means one mom teaching them usually. Many homeschoolers have big families. The Duggars have several who have graduated now, and they probably help with homeschooling the younger ones, making the child to teacher ratio even smaller.

If Michelle is schooling Jessa down to Justin ( 10 children), and if she has graduated 4, then she would have 3 still living at home as teachers helpers. That does not seem that crazy to me. Compare that to 28 kids to one teacher, with learning disabilities, acting out, boy/girl relationships, time limits, and a whole host of other issues, and Michelle's little school doesn't seem so bad.

Yes, I do still think the Duggar kids are getting a great education.

Mint said...

Wama, as someone who took statistics, I can tell you that you're not seeing the whole picture here. First off, I'd like to know who they inverviewed and the questions they asked, for that alone can skew the results. Secondly, that site you put a link up was to a blog that only took the picture and put one, tiny little link among its text to the real article. Had I not been looking, I would have missed it. Here's the article: http://www.afajournal.org/2006/august/0806colleges.html

And I'd like to point out that the highest precent of people supposedly losing their faith is at CATHOLIC COLLEGES. Colleges that are designed to let their students worship Jesus and read and study the bible are losing the faith of their students.

I dunno. . . are you SURE it's the colleges that are making the students lose their faith?

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"And I'd like to point out that the highest precent of people supposedly losing their faith is at CATHOLIC COLLEGES. Colleges that are designed to let their students worship Jesus and read and study the bible are losing the faith of their students."

Why do you think this is happening? Are they filled with liberal professors like the state universities?