Duggar Free Discussion November

Let's try a monthly thread for Duggar items that don't fit with the episodes or major new articles. Please use this for Duggar sightings, speculation, or general discussion. Note that this is Duggar discussion not other families, TV shows, or personal stories.

238 comments:

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Anonymous said...

I would like to explore the term "encouragement" as used by the Duggar women (I have never heard a Duggar male use that term.) It's used as a noun as in "be an encouragement for others." We heard Michelle use it again on the Q&A episode. I have always thought of encouragement as supporting some as they work toward their chosen goal. It seems to me, though, that in Duggar-speak, it is viewed more as being a role model or someone to emulate. They chose the path and now are "an encouragement" for others who are expected to follow.
-Katydid

nccalgal said...

Katydid
This is something that I have tried to put into words many times. Part of the Christian life is to encourage and build one another up and encompasses all of the activities you listed such as support and mentoring. The Christian life is a growth process, surrenduring parts of your life to God and letting Him lead. This can be a scary thing so when you see someone else who has made that leap of faith, it is an encouragement to others that this was/is the right thing to do. One does not have to buy into the whole Duggar philosophy to see them as an encouragement. They have their belief system and they are living it out regardless of how anti-mainstream it may be.

Anonymous said...

I think the family truly believes that they are role models: good Christian citizens with a lot of children that are their "Blessings from God". I think the Duggars would like the rest of the country to follow their fundamentalist belief system, to have gigantic families, to homeschool, etc.

It's like a modern day missionary, preaching their message to the entire viewing American public. Sadly, the Duggars don't seem to realize or care that they are a source of mockery for many people.

Katie said...

I have noticed that the Duggar women use the word purpose as a verb, as in, " I purpose to do better." It's an unique usage of the word which I think of as a noun.

luvmybabies said...

I haven't ever heard anyone use the term "encourgement" either as often as the Duggars do. From hearing them use it in context a few times, I take it that they mean "uplifting", as in to make others feel better, spread happiness and goodwill around. They commented that Michelle was doing that as she said "good job!" and gave medals to all who finished the race. That would fit with that definition.

The unusual word they use often that always catches my attention is "purpose". Usually that word is used to say, "the purpose of such and such is..." or to do something "on purpose." But the Duggars use it as in, "we purposed to get out of debt" (JimBob says this one a lot when describing their financial journey) and last night Michelle said she "purposed to put a smile on her face" when she had small children.

Is this word a big one for Gothard, or what is the significance of it, does anyone know?

Harriet said...

Purpose and encouragement used Duggar style is really their denomination style. My next door neighbor uses them the same way since they switched churches.

Anonymous said...

As to the purpose and encouragement, I'd like to add "wise counsel". They use this a lot as well. I have noticed that the Bates, Jim Sammons, and other Gothard members use variations on these as well. Oh, and "defrauding" too. I had never heard any of these terms used quite the way the Duggars use them.
ITA that the Duggars think that they are role models for us all, but a lot of us don't quite see it that way.

Anonymous said...

The term "wise counsel" is one used at times within my faith community. Basically, it means if you're trying to make a decision about something and you're struggling with it, you should talk to someone about it and ask for their advice. BUT, you shouldn't just go ask anyone. You want to talk with someone who is walking faithfully with God, who will give you sound advice that is in line with God's will.

Here's an extreme example. I'm married, but attracted to a man I work with. He has made it clear that he's interested in me. I love my husband, but really attracted to this man at work. So, I go to a friend and ask what they think I should do. The friend says I should give the new guy a whirl behind my husband's back (i.e. - cheat on my husband) and then decide who I like best. This is obviously NOT wise counsel because it does not align with what the Bible says God's will for marraige is.

Hope this helps!

Mrs P said...

The Duggars do not want anyone to follow them. They would be saddened to hear that anyone thought they wanted people to 'follow them' or be 'like them'.

What they want and what *all* true christians want is for everyone to follow Jesus Christ.

Mrs P

Anonymous said...

I agree about "defrauding"! I had never, ever heard that before the way Joy Anna used it to explain why she covered up the TV. "Joy, why did you cover the TV" "Because it's defrauding." The explanation that TLC gave in the little box in the corner said that defrauding refers to inciting desires that cannot be righteously fulfilled. Defrauding? I don't understand why they chose that word.

Sharla said...

Christina, if you want that comment to go through you need to lose the snarking at the mods, make it shorter, and break it into paragraphs at a minimum. If you think you can't shorten it, then look at our suggestions for posts or discussion topics and consider asking us if we'd like you to work with us on a post. Thanks.

anonymous said...

Mrs. P, They have an entire television crew following them, inside their home, on vacation, and giving birth. They seem quite pleased being in front of an audience, signing autographs, and generally attracting attention from others. IMO they are not truly Godly.

Explain the abundance of self love from JimBob adoring himself in the mirror and the way he relates to others. When he talks to others outside of his big materialistic house the first sentence out of his mouth is all about "My name is Jim Bob", and I have #of children. wow be impressed people, he has sperm.

Where does bragging and love

Im_in_PR said...

It's like a modern day missionary, preaching their message to the entire viewing American public. Sadly, the Duggars don't seem to realize or care that they are a source of mockery for many people.

I think they expected to be ridiculed and mocked. Anyone who spends any time as a fundamentalist Christian in this country is probably already well acquainted with being mocked.

Mrs P said...

The only reason they agreed to do the show was to be an encouragement to others and to be a witness for Christ.

Mrs P

s said...

"defrauding refers to inciting desires that cannot be righteously fulfilled"

It almost seems like their desires have to be fulfilled. What's wrong with a little self-control for these folks? Also seems sexist - the women do not have desires? I have never seen them cover a man up.

RachieK. said...

anonymous said...
Mrs. P, They have an entire television crew following them, inside their home, on vacation, and giving birth. They seem quite pleased being in front of an audience, signing autographs, and generally attracting attention from others. IMO they are not truly Godly.

I find the Duggars extremely bizarre, but I think they seem like nice people, just trying to do the "right thing." I find the above comment offensive for one reason... the accusing them of being "ungodly" part. That is such a weird thing to say, all we know of them is what we see on tv. I can't say I subscribe to their belief system, not even a little bit.

I grew up in a conservative evangelical Christian community as Catholic, and I can't tell you how many times I was asked, as a very young child mind you, why we worship the Virgin Mary, or any of about a dozen questions. While it is okay to use that kind of questioning to understand the faith, these kids were no more than 8 or 10. The comments about me not being a "Christian" ran rampant. I don't think anyone can judge how good of a Christian someone else is. It is that type of thinking that completely turned me off from organized religion. I still have faith, but I can't subscribe to any particular following.

As my dad always said when we used to gossip as little girls "Let's leave the judging to God." And he is not a religious person in the least, just someone with good sense and a conscience.

RealityTVisfunny said...

Mrs P,

I know of MANY Christians who have tried to persuade me to leave the Catholic church and join their churches (evangelical and fundamental) and follow their guidelines and rules for living. I don't know the Duggars personally so I can't say whether they wish people would follow them but I think that the fact that they are on TV (and supposedly it is not for the $) leaves me wondering.

Anonymous said...

The U of AK visit is curious and it will be intersting to learn why they are there (they certainly like to sport UAK t-shirts, etc.)If recon for further ed., I would guess if it's for one of the boys(JD or Jason) because the girls roles were destined at birth.

I get the impression that girld don't need higher education, just good chilbearing, rearing, cooking, cleaning and submitting required. In this regard, the Duggar girls are nearing a PhD in their pursuit of an Mrs. (or so their parents and church think - free Jinger !)

Besides the UAK's admission standards are really low (I don't think the kids are dumb, just under-educated) and tuition/room/board and other fees are dirt cheap (most appealing to JB). Most ATI homeschoolers could get in, but could they survive the temptations and challenges (critical thinking, writing, getting up for class, etc.) Tune in a find out.

gotsomewheelsnow said...

After the occasi

onal Duggar family specials, it was only natural for TLC to want to capitalize on their unique family for as many ratings points and viewers as they could get. I do believe the Duggars see themselves as missionaries for their faith - their mission field just happens to be a TV audience. We've seen them volunteering their time for various charities and I understand they don't allow filming of all the charitable work they do. This is a family that lives their convictions unashamedly and it takes a lot of faith to do that.

Im_in_PR said...

s said...

***It almost seems like their desires have to be fulfilled. What's wrong with a little self-control for these folks? Also seems sexist - the women do not have desires? I have never seen them cover a man up.***

I believe the fact that they are trying to guard the eyes of the young men refers to self control in and of itself. They way I understand it, since they believe in chastity and sexual purity and sex within the marriage only, it would seem that they are teaching and exhorting self control until such a time as those natural desires CAN be fulfilled in a marriage relationship.

Regarding the girls, I think it is different just based on the physiological fact that the male of the species is stimulated differently than the female in many respects.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the Duggars and skirt wearing...I wonder if they wear pajama pants to bed or if they wear nightgowns. I like wearing skirts in the summer (not in the winter - my legs get too cold!), but I haven't worn a nightgown to bed since I was a kid and I hating wearing them then. It would always bunch up while I was sleeping and when I woke up in the morning the hem was somewhere around my armpits. Not very comfortable or very warm:) Anyone have any ideas about this?

UAstudent said...

The Duggars live about 15 minutes away from campus, so I doubt the future student will be living on campus. I am sure he/she will still be living at home.

I'd imagine that's why they chose this school!

Im_in_PR said...

[Purposed]Is this word a big one for Gothard, or what is the significance of it, does anyone know?

It's more of a biblical term.

PUR''POSED, pp. Intended; designed; applied to things.


1. Resolved; having formed a design or resolution; applied to persons.


I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress. Ps.17.

If you use the 1828 Websters dictionary(Just uncheck the 1913 edition,)it closely follows the rendering of Bible words used in the King James Version.

If you are curious about where in the Bible some of their beliefs come from you can get a free searchable Bible at Theophilos. It's very easy to use and you can just plug a word in and it gives you the verse where the word is found.

Anonymous said...

Do the Duggars read blogs (other than TLC) and if so, are they being moved to, for instance, look at higher education; work on punctuality, etc.?

I think they must be a little curious about how they are being received and look.

Anonymous said...

I really hope TLC dedicates a whole episode to the older kids. I am curious of their outlooks and their plans for the future.

Anonymous said...

Another thing that I think is interesting is that they only say "expecting". I don't think I have ever heard anyone on that show (duggar, bates, whoever) say pregnant. Is that a Southern dialect thing or what??

Anonymous said...

Ahh, punctuality. I don't think the Duggars are truly committed to correcting that one. They refer to "Duggar-time" as if it's kind of a joke or to be expected. I would think that after all these years, one of them could have invented some type of system for making sure they get places on time. What do ya'll think?

-Katydid

winsomeone said...

I think the Duggars have an odd life style. No one seems to work outside of the home...not a very good example to set for the kids. They don't watch TV, or regular movies, or use the computer other than for school work, so what is it that keeps them up so late at night that none of them can mange to get up at a decent hour in the morning? Their daily routine seems to have little structure to it, and it amazes me that the housework, cooking, etc. can all get done. And just what is it that the hard working boys do? I have yet to see any of them doing the supposed outside work?

Ms. Pellin said...

I don't mean to be snippy, but the abbreviation for Arkansas is AR not AK--that is Alaska.

Anonymous said:

Besides the UAK's admission standards are really low (I don't think the kids are dumb, just under-educated) and tuition/room/board and other fees are dirt cheap (most appealing to JB). Most ATI homeschoolers could get in, but could they survive the temptations and challenges (critical thinking, writing, getting up for class, etc.) Tune in a find out.


I would like to know who thinks that $7000 per semester tuition, room and board without books is dirt cheap? Also, how do you know that the admission standards are low? Did you apply? I attended and graduated from the U of A with a BSE and a MAT, all the while working full time--and living at home with mom and dad--to pay for it. I can tell you from experience that I left with a lot of student loan debt. Then again, my family wasn't being exploited by TLC.

Anonymous said...

$7000 is dirt cheap to me. My tuition was $23000 per year. (graduated in 2001)

I now work at college and our fees are about now $40,000 per year.

Im_in_PR said...

I don't think the Duggars are truly committed to correcting that one. They refer to "Duggar-time" as if it's kind of a joke or to be expected. I would think that after all these years, one of them could have invented some type of system for making sure they get places on time. What do ya'll think?

-Katydid


I totally agree.

Anonymous said...

"I don't think the Duggars are truly committed to correcting that one. They refer to "Duggar-time" as if it's kind of a joke or to be expected. I would think that after all these years, one of them could have invented some type of system for making sure they get places on time. What do ya'll think?

-Katydid

I totally agree."

I also agree. I don't think it's funny though. Being late once in a while can happen to anyone. Being chronically late and not caring enough to do anything about it is rude and disrespectful.

Snap! said...

I find it surprising that all the Duggar kids follow their parent's way of thinking without question. My teens will argue with me if I try to impose my way of thinking-
How do they produce children that blindly follow their parents lead?
Have we ever seen a Duggar child rebel? Is it because they are never exposed to any other way of acting, thinking or dressing?
Hopefully one will break free and not roll their eyes when seeing people dancing or doing anything judged inferior to the Duggars.

Anonymous said...

Snap! said...
"I find it surprising that all the Duggar kids follow their parent's way of thinking without question. My teens will argue with me if I try to impose my way of thinking-
How do they produce children that blindly follow their parents lead?
Have we ever seen a Duggar child rebel? Is it because they are never exposed to any other way of acting, thinking or dressing? "

This is the #1 thing I'm curious about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How come NOONE ever questions anything in that household? I mean they are probably encouraged to bealieve what the parents do BUT how come not one out of the 18 says "that's great dad but I really don't think that's neccesary!!"..or something like that....are there no personal opinions????
For example one daughter could very well not believe that it's neccesary or a salvation issue to wear skirts only and then just wear pants but still love and respect the family etc.....the curiosity is killing me!!
raisingmybabies

kalyse86 said...

I have a question about the "nike" situation. Do they only say that if they see an "immodestly" dressed female so that guys can look down so they won't be tempted to "lust" or do the boys say it when a guy is dressed "immodestly" (I guess that would be no shirt on lol) so the girls can look down as well? I've only ever heard the girls say it for the boys so that they can avert their eyes. If they are so worried about lust and self control and all that stuff then why doesn't it apply for both sexes? It sort of seems like a double standard to me. It makes me think that the Duggars feel that the men are weak and can be easily tempted by those 'evil' and immodest females. As if the men are clueless and blameless and the women are responsible. Am I making sense? I like the Duggars and think they are decent people but I just don't like the way women are viewed in this family.

Im_in_PR said...

Anonymous said... For example one daughter could very well not believe that it's neccesary or a salvation issue to wear skirts only and then just wear pants but still love and respect the family

I never heard the Duggars ever attach any salvational value at all to modest dressing. But I have heard them say that salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

One thing I think people miss is the fact that these girls have been raised to believe the Bible, to believe that the Bible is true, and believe that modesty is a Biblical virtue. So it is most likely a case of the girls believing this also, not just the parents forcing them to do something against their will.

Im_in_PR said...

Snap saidHopefully one will break free and not roll their eyes when seeing people dancing or doing anything judged inferior to the Duggars.

I didn't get the impression they were judging the activity to be inferior. It's just something that isn't a part of their lives.

I more had the impression that the child was just out of her element and felt somewhat uncomfortable in that environment.

frugalchicken said...

On the coment of using expecting instead of pregnant I do know my mom was raised in the south and got smacked across the mouth for using the word pregnant-of course that was many years ago but at that point in NC it was considered a "bad word"

kimmie said...

I think the word encouragement is used to say they want to be helpful in showing a godly life to others. if they didn't hope to show Jesus and salvation to others they would be neglecting the reconciling mission Jesus gave to all his followers.

The word purpose is biblical and just means to make a really strong decision that you will not change your mind on.

The dressing in skirts and dresses I think is because those articles of clothing don't mold themselves to a woman's body showing off the body. The clothes they choose are loose and not tight or form-fitting in any way.

They also do not conform to the world's way of dressing.

Friend said...

I am a Duggar fan so please don't get me wrong when I say this but sometimes it looks as if Jim Bob may slightly get on Michelle's nerves.
However since she is such a sweet and kind wife/person she handles it with such grace and dignity.

adidas said...

Yes kalyse86, you make sense. "Why doesn't the NIKE statement apply to both sexes"?

For people proclaiming to be modest, why so much talk about lusting and sex? I don't know too many people that drill into boys heads to stop looking at the evil lustful women every chance they get.

If the only thing I repeated to my boys was "Stop thinking about cookies", wouldn't it guarantee that after 13 years or so, they'de gorge on cookies?. I certainly never walked down a street pointing out lust to my children, we talked about the world around us. There were thousands of other issues we as parents discussed.

Apparently, in their view, men are just big idiots that have zero self control. In my opinion, women wearing skirts risk a whole lot more being exposed than a woman wearing pants. Let's take a guess which gender made up THAT rule.

broncos said...

Ms.Pellin, Maybe people misunderstood because the price you quoted was 'per semester' not year? In the upper midwest, a typical state university is now about 20k. That would include tuition, room/board/meals/books/parking/ and a few extra bucks for pizzas and meals out. Per year, at a state college.(and not a big fancy one, just one that most kids could get into)

Don't know what year you attended but prices for next fall will be close to 400 per credit hour. Higher education should be available to everyone in our society, regardless of income.

We have children in college and both my husband and I have soup and pb n j a few nights a week. Glad you invested in your future! It will pay off.

roddma said...

"The dressing in skirts and dresses I think is because those articles of clothing don't mold themselves to a woman's body showing off the body. The clothes they choose are loose and not tight or form-fitting in any way." Their arguments are invalid regardign pants. pants also mold to a mans body Maybe mens shoudlnt wear them either.

roddma said...

"I think the Duggars have an odd life style. No one seems to work outside of the home...not a very good example to set for the kids. They don't watch TV, or regular movies, or use the computer other than for school work, so what is it that keeps them up so late at night that none of them can mange to get up at a decent hour in the morning? " Amen I watch TV and other world things and still arrive on time. Actually theres no excuse why the housework cant be done on time with several adults at home. JB owns rental property and a car lot so he really doesnt need to work for anyone else.

Anonymous said...

Friend said... "I am a Duggar fan so please don't get me wrong when I say this but sometimes it looks as if Jim Bob may slightly get on Michelle's nerves.
However since she is such a sweet and kind wife/person she handles it with such grace and dignity."

Hahaha... what husband does not get on his wife's nerves from time to time (or wives on their husbands' for that matter)? It happens. I'm sure the kids get on their nerves too. But that is the one of the things I love about the Duggars. Whenever they are annoyed, they put on a smile and face the situation with respect and love. Cousin Amy told Michelle on her birthday that she was so impressed that she had never heard Michelle raise her voice, but all the children seem to know when she means business. That is a special quality, one that I wish I could emulate more.

Anonymous said...

Jill was wearing a very tight red shirt on the last episode, that certainly showed off all of her curves.

The girls aren't wearing baggy shirts anymore, or long, long skirts. Some are wearing skirts that show half of their legs now.

So, they have changed in that respect.

Anonymous said...

As far as Michelle being so sweet and tolerant and smiling at JimBob even when he's irritating, the churches that follow those beliefs actually have classes to teach the women how to do all this. It's a learned and patterned behavior. I'd try to go, but they'd probably recognize I don't fit in pretty quickly.

I do own a couple pieces of the requisite long baggy clothing though.

Anonymous said...

I've been thinking...even if JB's pre-TLC income was from rental properties, he'd still have an obligation to check on them. I don't know if it includes residental or just industrial sites, but either way, one would have to visit on them once in awile & make the odd repair. Wonder why we've never seen that?

-Katydid

Anonymous said...

Hey Katydid... actually, we HAVE seen that :) I recall one episode where JB went to collect rent from one of their commercial properties. It looked like a storage unit or garage that someone was renting out.
Martina

Im_in_PR said...

rodma said Their arguments are invalid regardign pants. pants also mold to a mans body Maybe mens shoudlnt wear them either.

The admonition from the Bible to be modest is specifically directed at Christian women, not men.

I Timothy 2: 9-10
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in
modest apparel,
with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

Im_in_PR said...

Adidas said In my opinion, women wearing skirts risk a whole lot more being exposed than a woman wearing pants. Let's take a guess which gender made up THAT rule.

I think that the folks who believe in modesty as an admonition to Christian females would probably tell you that they chose not to have their buttocks and crotch area outlined and defined, as pants would do.

That's an area they seem to prefer to keep covered rather than wear pants and have the focus on their bodies placed at the crotch and buttocks.

Anonymous said...

Regarding modesty, why is it then that Jim Bob spends so much time in the mirror arranging his hair, shellacking it with the hairspray? I've noticed some of the little boys (James?) picking up this habit in recent episodes.

Anonymous said...

I wear pants everyday and no one can see my buttocks or crotch area. Nice loose jeans don't show anything and are much more comfortable for girls on the go than a skirt, which catches on things.

Willow #1 said...

Its just my opinion of course, but I sometimes think that the women wearing skirts, etc., is not JUST for modesty, but also in the realm of power for the men, in that it reinforces the "woman's place".

I think the girls' shorter skirts could just be that they are older now and are asserting some of their own opinions (?) Maybe? Also, what about a baggier style of pants for the women? Not all of my pants are skin tight.

Anonymous said...

I can't speak for anyone but myself but the talk over and over again about dress, beliefs, and so on is obviously fun for some. I think it's swimming upstream as far as the Duggars go though. This isn't a belief system of just a few "backward" families looosely tied together. There are entire churches and church systems with the same or very similar beliefs.

BTW, I'm not of the same denomination as the Duggars and would never want to be. I do see that they're entitled to their own religious beliefs and as long as they aren't trying to make me follow theirs, I won't try to impose mine on them.

Here is a link to one.
http://www.lbcde.org/About/Our_Beliefs.cfm

Im_in_PR said...

I wear pants everyday and no one can see my buttocks or crotch area.

I guess I'm confused because I have never seen pants without a crotch....

Nice loose jeans don't show anything and are much more comfortable for girls on the go than a skirt, which catches on things.

Jeans, loose or not, all have definite crotches. Others wise, they wouldn't be pants. They'd be jean skirts.
Speaking of comfort, and adding in the hygiene factor, skirts and dresses seem much more comfortable.

Im_in_PR said...

Regarding modesty, why is it then that Jim Bob spends so much time in the mirror arranging his hair, shellacking it with the hairspray?

It might be somewhat vain, but to me it doesn't seem to fall into the realm of immodest apparel. But that's just me.

Anonymous said...

The Duggar girls have changed so much since I first viewed them on t.v.

Michelle looks alittle too orange....tanning perhaps?

or maybe tanning spray.

I hope Jana or John David begans courting soon. Someone needs to take the spotlight away from Josh. I feel sorry for Josh's wife Anna.

Josh probably talked her into the whole "giving birth on television thing" ...poor girl.

L.B. said...

Hi. I live in the same town as the Duggar family and wanted to say in regards to using the term "expecting". I know I was taught to use this word rather than "pregnant". I was taught that it was a more polite way to describe it.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The Duggar family has encouraged me to believe there are still good and sincere poeple out there.

Anonymous said...

Of course there is a "crotch" in jeans, but I venture to guess you catch more of Josh and Jim Bob's jewels, in those tight jeans they wear, than any outline of any female crotch area in the jeans that modest women like me wear. Sure, there are skin tight jeans, but only the Duggar men and some exhibitionist women seem to wear them. Normal jeans are quite modest and don't hug anywhere at all too close.

Mrs. said...

Okay I am a Michelle fan but sometimes Jim Bob does hoover over Michelle. As a woman sometime we feel like we are being pawed on.

Im_in_PR said...

Sure, there are skin tight jeans, but only the Duggar men and some exhibitionist women seem to wear them.

Being female, I've never noticed their crotches. It's just not an area my eye is drawn to.

Midwest Mom said...

I'd like to make a comment about how the Duggars say they never judge other people.

What about the actions (words) of Jinger in the episode where the family is waiting in the living room for newly-engaged Josh/Anna to drive in from Florida......
Ma & Pa Duggar are standing by the computer with Jinger, and Jim Bob says:
"I've had a few emails from young men wanting to court my daughters".

then Jinger says,
"They are WEIRDOS".

Now, for a family who claims to never ever judge other people, I found Jinger's comment very telling, that YES they do sometimes judge other people.

I've been married 10 years to a wonderful man I met via the internet. He is in no way a "weirdo" and neither am I.

Maybe if Jinger had a little more real-world experience beyond the school-of-the-dining-room-table, she'd realize that not everyone meets their future spouse via arranged-marriage from only "their kind" of people.

They judged the food and the dancing at the Ethiopian restaurant with the holding-their-nose actions and rolling of the eyes.

The Duggars are far, far, from perfect as some people seem to believe.

Betty said...

I don't recall the Duggars ever saying or implying that they are perfect. I think they'd be among the first to say that all human beings fall short.

I don't remember the Duggars saying that they didn't judge either but I don't try to remember every little thing. I only watch the show for some mild enjoyment.

Im_in_PR said...

They judged the food and the dancing at the Ethiopian restaurant with the holding-their-nose actions and rolling of the eyes.

Of course everyone has the right, even the duty, to judge whether something is good or not.
But the nose holding (which I did not witness) or the younger girl rolling her eyes seemed more to me like eyes widening in surprise, and then her face segued into a big grin.
If I were judging those actions, they seemed child like, done by someone who was sort of uncomfortable being placed in a loud situation that came complete with it's own set of unfamiliar smells.
It's just my opinion, but those actions didn't seem harsh or mean.

Would you agree that many who object to what they term the Duggar children's "judgemental-ness" have been themselves guilty of passing a little judgment on the children?

Im_in_PR said...

Midwest Mom said...Ma & Pa Duggar are standing by the computer with Jinger, and Jim Bob says:
"I've had a few emails from young men wanting to court my daughters".

then Jinger says,
"They are WEIRDOS". Now, for a family who claims to never ever judge other people, I found Jinger's comment very telling, that YES they do sometimes judge other people.

I've been married 10 years to a wonderful man I met via the internet. He is in no way a "weirdo" and neither am I.


I'm sure they were not implying that YOU or your husband are weird. Jinger just seemed to be voicing her opinion that people she doesn't even know writing her dad wanting to date here are weird.
And that is weird.

Im_in_PR said...

Okay I am a Michelle fan but sometimes Jim Bob does hoover over Michelle. As a woman sometime we feel like we are being pawed on.

I know, that gets on my nerves!! He's always trying to kiss her and doing things like that. I know there are women who would probably adore that, but he is home a lot and that would get on my last nerve! I don't even like to watch him doing it!!

Midwest Mom said...

Betty said...I don't remember the Duggars saying that they didn't judge either but I don't try to remember every little thing.

Let me help you with that.
During the Say Yes To The Dress episode, Michelle Duggar stated that her girls do not judge other people.

Midwest Mom said...

posted by ImInPR: "Would you agree that many who object to what they term the Duggar children's "judgemental-ness" have been themselves guilty of passing a little judgment on the children?"

Yes, absolutely, but I've never gone on national television and proclaimed that I don't judge other people. Unlike Ma Duggar, in the dress episode, stating that her girls do not judge others, when there is ample evidence to the contrary.

I refuse to drink the Duggar koolaid.

Nokoolaid said...

Midwest Mom - I'm with you - skipping the Duggar koolaid. I could not care less how they choose to live but since they get paid to show it and "evangelize it" on TV (while disliking TV interestingly enough) in my opinion they have consented to the viewers' analysis.

And I'm in PR - I totally understand that you think females don't look at men's crotches but I don't necessarily agree, nor do I think that men are constantly staring at the crotch area in particular of women's pants. In fact I've never heard of such a thing from any man I know. And I have 3 brothers and 4 sons.

its a small world afterall said...

Does being modest mean constant references about sex, lust, and body parts? We attend a service which might be thought of as quite liberal compared to the
Duggars chosen faith, but...,

Sorry, I don't find that modest at all. Pavlov demonstrated the effects of classical conditioning years ago. What will happen years from now when these young men are in a NIKE situation and their sisters aren't around to help them control their sexual thoughts?

Yes, the clothing discussion is ridiculous, but please... the young women in that family, for all their supposed morality, are wearing T-shirts quite similar to the ones mine have worn. Maybe the difference is that we don't preach about morality, we just quietly do it.

Anonymous said...

Midwest Mom... it was Jessa who said "they are weirdos" not Jinger. :)

Anonymous said...

itsasmallworld... I agree about Pavlov's dogs. This is the same concern I felt when hearing Michelle talk about the rule about locking the door in the bathroom. I'm sure they boys would never have thought of walking in on someone in the bathroom as a lust-provoking event (especially if it's their own sister!), but now imagine how they will feel if they accidentally do this to someone in public.
-Christina

Friend said...

I agree with the poster(s) who say t they think that Jim Bob does over do it with Michelle. Did you see when Michelle was making pottery and he was helping her? He reminded me of Patrick S and Demi M in the movie Ghost.

nccalgal said...

As far as the statement that Michelle made in the dress episode, what she was saying IMO, was that the girls don't make judgements on another's moral or spiritual standing based solely on outward appearance. There is nothing wrong with making an objective judgement as to whether someone's "dress" is immodest. What is wrong is then making a judgement as to the moral character of that person. Look at how Brandy Chastain was dressed at the end of the run, there were no looks of horror that she had exposed so much skin, they graciously thanked her for her participation.

Anonymous said...

There isn't a question that the Duggar children are judgemental, about people who dance, eat different foods, dress differently than they do, etc. The truth is, we are ALL somewhat judgemental of people who do things differently. and it is ridiculous for Michelle to say her kids are not judgemental. They are, as we have seen it.

Being a little bit more worldly wouldn't be a bad thing for them.

Im_in_PR said...

nccalgal said...As far as the statement that Michelle made in the dress episode, what she was saying IMO, was that the girls don't make judgements on another's moral or spiritual standing based solely on outward appearance. There is nothing wrong with making an objective judgement as to whether someone's "dress" is immodest. What is wrong is then making a judgement as to the moral character of that person.

Agreed, great post.

Im_in_PR said...

Itsasmallworldafterall said What will happen years from now when these young men are in a NIKE situation and their sisters aren't around to help them control their sexual thoughts?

I believe the common thought is that YEARS FROM NOW, the boys will be grown, probably married and not overrun with hormones as teen boys are....Just guessing.

sandra said...

Friend said...

I agree with the poster(s) who say t they think that Jim Bob does over do it with Michelle. Did you see when Michelle was making pottery and he was helping her? He reminded me of Patrick S and Demi M in the movie Ghost.
______________-

TLC laughed all the way to the bank. The Duggars have not seen that movie, so they had no idea about the sexual overtones.
The Duggars film their show, and then TLC warps and bends it to look how they want it to. SICK.

Anonymous said...

"I do not think it is a bad idea to give your son or daughter a business. Also I do not think going into a business rather than going to college is a bad decision. Each family has to decide what is best for them and what works. Giving a son a business or putting a child through college are individual choices. It is not uncommon for one generation to give a hand to the next generation."

I disagree. Any parent will tell you that if a child desperately wants a particular toy and mom and dad tell the child they have to work for and save up the money to buy it, they will take much better care of that toy and appreciate it more than if it's just given to him. The same with a business. If a business is just given to a (grown-up) child that child won't know what it means to really work to earn it. They won't learn the responsibility and work ethic that comes from working to earn something. They'll just learn a sense of entitlement. That's not to say there's anything wrong with taking over the family business. But in my family the son doesn't just get handed the family business (which has been in the family for over a hundred years). Instead the son works alongside the father and slowly buys out the business from the dad. This way he learns about hard work and responsibility and that things in life don't just get handed to you on a silver platter. And going to college first can help you run a business. My parents told my brother that before he joined the family business they wanted him to go to college for several reasons. One, college is an opportunity to learn, grow, and mature. Most 18-year-olds just out of college aren't ready to run a business. Two, the skills you learn in college can help you run a business, assuming you get a related degree, which my brother is. Third, a degree gives you something to fall back on in case the business goes under. While I understand that a four year degree is not right for everyone, I believe everyone needs some kind of formal trainig in a marketable skill.

Im_in_PR said...

The Duggars film their show, and then TLC warps and bends it to look how they want it to. SICK.

True that. But the Duggars are willing participants.

Anonymous said...

Whether or not the Duggars have seen "Ghost" is immaterial. Jim Bob and Michelle did that weird clay thing, which was incredibly sexual in nature. TLC couldn't have edited it to look that way, because it actually happened that way!

itsasmallworld said...

I'm in PR--I also believe that the common thought is that years from now these young men will not have raging hormones, happily married, etc..

Just my thoughts, but I think that sometimes children who grow up in a sexually repressed atmosphere compare to children surrounded by a promiscuous lifestyle. Risky behaviour left and right. Coming to terms with ones sexuality should not be shameful. My hope as a parent is to raise children somewhere in that middle ground. It's hasn't been easy to figure out the right way to do it, and believe me it's a work in progress.

It's part of our job as parents isn't it, to turn out healthy adults..?? Motherhood has to be the most important job in the world! :)

the network ain't on your side said...

I'm waiting for the day they they discover that tlc lead their moral selves into a shop in San Fransico that sells drug paraphenalia. Hee, yep a little more world experience might just be a good thing.

Im_in_PR said...

Its a small world said Just my thoughts, but I think that sometimes children who grow up in a sexually repressed atmosphere compare to children surrounded by a promiscuous lifestyle. Risky behaviour left and right. Coming to terms with ones sexuality should not be shameful.

I don't see the atmosphere at the Duggars as sexually repressive at all. To me it seem wholesome. I also see no shame attached to God designed sexual roles in that household! Especially the way they talk about when their babies were conceived!

luvmybabies said...

nccalgal, well said. Of course the Duggars are "judgmental", as we all are. Every day we all make judgments about what we think of things. The term "judgmental" is usually used to mean looking down on someone, which I don't think the Duggars do.

It's interesting that the posts about the Duggars' take on sexuality are all over the place - first they're "blatantly sexual" or "obsessed with sex", then they're "sexually repressed" and unrealistic. J & M celebrate sexuality in marriage, and have said as much. IMO their PDA's aren't over the top. They're trying to help their sons through the raging hormonal years by developing self-control. I asked my husband about the whole crotch/outlined private area of pants - and he informed me that "heck yeah guys look at crotches and bums in pants, tight or not!" We women won't ever know what it's like to be a teenage boy. Women might look at mens' crotches in pants sometimes too, but come on, there's no comparison. It's a biological fact that there just isn't the same physical reaction with women as there is with men. The Duggar girls feel more comfortable and modest in skirts, kudos to them. I can definitely see their point. If I hadn't been wearing pants since I was a little girl I'd probably feel uncomfortable in them too.

Anonymous said...

There is so much celebration of sex in the Duggar parent marriage that I would wonder, if I were a Duggar teen, what else do my parents do? What are their interests, aside from sex and procreation?

Personally, as a role model to my children, I don't find it necessary to have my marital sexuality on display at all times. It is just creepy to me, to have so much attention on parental sex, but have the premarital period completely covered by NIKE and "defrauding" and no kissing and chaperones( which prevent a normal developing relationship, including conversation between a couple, and only them).

There really is something normal between the Duggar model and the promiscuous model, which some people seem to see as the only two extremes. Neither one is healthy.

Hopewell said...

Anyone know when the season finale is?

Anonymous said...

I’m perplexed by JimBob and Michele being so open about their sex life as well. I’m betting that the family watches the show, and so I have to wonder how much of their show they “defraud” from their children – i.e. birthing classes, OBGYN appointments, the day the last baby was conceived…

In my opinion, the younger kids should not even know what birth control (or the lack thereof) is. I don’t think it’s healthy for kids to know these types of things about their parents. At all.

They seem to be living to two extremes: blocking out the outside world and all of its “perversions”, yet being extremely open about their sex life on camera and with their children.

Anonymous said...

I do think the Duggars are at times judgemental of others, but it can get lost in the "translation" of Southern-speak.

One can get away with saying pretty much anything as long as it is couched in a soft & genteel manner. For example: "She has a face only a mother can love, bless her little heart."

Anonymous said...

The Duggars don't have anything in the judgement department on some of the people dissecting their lives, bless their hearts. Just a bit of irony there?

Anonymous said...

It sure doesn't seem modest to me for Jim Bob and Michelle to announce the day the latest child was conceived, or to talk all the time about birth control or lack thereof. Or to smooch constantly as they ignore the rest of the kids.

I would think a TRULY modest family would not have so much PDA or focus on all sexual matters. It should be private, but the Duggars make sex a very public matter.

Im_in_PR said...

It sure doesn't seem modest to me for Jim Bob and Michelle to announce the day the latest child was conceived...

Psalms 127:3
 Lo, children are an heritage
of the LORD:
and the fruit of the womb
is his reward.

I think for Duggars, the idea of a new child in the womb is a cause for celebration, not shame.

msrylee said...

My sincere apology for using the incorrect abbreviation for "Arkansas". I should have looked it up prior to posting, and I didn't. I meant no harm or disrespect. Thanks for the polite correction!

Anonymous said...

Maybe it's just me, but I would be MORTIFIED if my parents discussed when their last child was conceived at a dinner party amongst friends, much less on tv for the entire world to know...and I'm in my 40's. Some things in life you just want to put your fingers in your ears and go "la, la, la...I can't hear you!"

Anonymous said...

But for a family that prides itself on its modesty, they certainly do have a lot of emphasis on sex. It seems weird and contradictory.

Anonymous said...

Im_in_PR,

Re: Psalms 127:3
Lo, children are an heritage
of the LORD:
and the fruit of the womb
is his reward.

I think for Duggars, the idea of a new child in the womb is a cause for celebration, not shame.
___

Announcing a pregnancy and announcing the day of conception are not one in the same thing. I don’t buy it.

msrylee said...

I believe that the birth of a child is a blessing. However, the timing and circumstances surrounding the conception of the child are very private, and should remain so between the parents. The Duggar kids don't have to know these details either. The viewers definitely don't have to be informed. Why do JB and M feel compelled to talk about their sex life?

MamaDuck said...

I enjoy the Duggars, but I have a few qualms about the whole "modesty" thing myself. It isnt very modest to have your children witness the birth of their siblings. Ive seen clips of some of Michelles births, and while shes delivering, all the girls are in the room too.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think this is strange? Not to mention poor Anna, giving birth on TV.

Anonymous said...

I have read on "other forums" that other reality families (two of whom seem to be facing marital hardship at the moment) brought on the problems by putting themselves in the spotlight and being naked for the world to see.

People have very little patience or understanding or compassion for other reality families in trouble, so I am wondering why there is more understanding and compassion to the Duggars, even though they have also put themselves in the spotlight for the world to see.

I'm just curious if others think it is OK for the Duggars, but not OK for other families on TV. And if so, why the difference of opinion. I am asking this question with all due respect.

frugalchicken said...

If they had the boys in the delivery room then modesty might be an issue but for the girls its not, birth is a very natural thing that they will most likely experience in their lifetimes, more than likely numerous times!! As a nurse I've seen women who prefer to give birth buck naked, thankfully not many but a few!!

Im_in_PR said...

Announcing a pregnancy and announcing the day of conception are not one in the same thing. I don’t buy it.

For me it's a little TMI. But for them it seems normal.

sandra said...

I have watched the jon'kate train wreck for almost a yr, and the duggar show for 6 months (maybe).

I can't stand the G's for exploiting their children and other reasons, but that is the primary reason.

But, I like the Duggars. They are kind, charitable, honest, etc.

But, a thought came to me the other day, after I heard Jom Bob say something like, "We film a little less than the average family watches tv'.

Well, that is a lot of taping!!!! And being kind or not, generous or not, aren't they doing the SAME THING as the gosselin's? they are using their children for financial gain, and I bet NONE of their earnings are being set aside for the Duggar kids....

So, there is not difference between the two.

I have to re-examine my motives about why I watch these two shows.

Anonymous said...

I'm really not trying to be rude, but something really rubs me the wrong way about JimBob. I think he's a kind man with a good heart, but I also kind of get the impression that he's glutenous or selfish or something. I am definitely both of these things, so I'm not one to talk, but I don't put myself out there on tv either. Anyway... it's been mentioned before about the women being modest and not attracting attention to themselves, yet JB uses gallons of hairspray to make himself look presentable. He also seems to have an uncontrollable junk food habit. I was also very irritated for some reason during James's birthday when James had just picked out a new bike and JB had to hop on it and go around the parking lot trying to do wheelies. It's not that I don't think sharing is a valuable lesson, but can't he just let his kid enjoy something without having to get in there and use it? I really do believe he has a good heart, but it irritates me how much he emphasizes self control and not attracting attention to yourself and things like that, but it's okay for him to do those things.

Kat said...

"There is nothing wrong with making an objective judgement as to whether someone's "dress" is immodest."

Uh, "objective" implies some sort of unbiased, fact-based decision process. The Duggars, like everyone else, can only make subjective decisions on the issue of modesty, because their standards for what constitute immodest are far different from, say, mine.

As for Brandi, I was wondering why all the Duggar girls weren't screaming NIKE at the top of their lungs! If the boys aren't supposed to be viewing women in "immodest" dress at the risk of bursting out into unrestrained lust, it would seem imprudent of the Duggars to participate in a road race event. One of the many contradictions we have seen. I wonder if they would have participated in such an event prior to the show?

cdn_mama said...

Does anyone know when we can be expecting a televised reveal of baby #19's sex? If the baby is due sometime in March, I'd think anytime now? Things have been surprisingly quiet about this baby, or so it seems.

Any thoughts?

Im_in_PR said...

It's not that I don't think sharing is a valuable lesson, but can't he just let his kid enjoy something without having to get in there and use it? I really do believe he has a good heart, but it irritates me how much he emphasizes self control and not attracting attention to yourself and things like that, but it's okay for him to do those things.

HE is starting to be a big show hound.

do as i say-not as i do? said...

Just consider, it is your birthday and you are one of 19 children. You get to pick out your very own brand new bike. Yipeee!!, you're thinking, for once I will get some individualized attention! For one time the focus might be on me! But wait --- now everyone is watching my big old Dad having to try out my bike, looking foolish, and attention, um, hogging.

That may have been a moment that James would have cherished, a special memory of his childhood.

I agree poster above, it was irritating to me too. Not a great rolemodel for modesty relating to attention seeking behavior.

MomOfThree said...

cdn_mama said...

Does anyone know when we can be expecting a televised reveal of baby #19's sex? If the baby is due sometime in March, I'd think anytime now? Things have been surprisingly quiet about this baby, or so it seems.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I, too, have felt that this pregnancy and baby's birth is not being as "publicized" as Johannah's, Jennifer's or Jordyn's.

I found it a bit ridiculous when Michelle said that she was following the Weight Watcher's plan and couldn't understand why she was not losing weight. Then she realized she was pregnant! This a woman that has had 18 previous pregnancies and she didn't recognize the signs until she was far enough along in pregnancy #19 to be gaining weight? I find that impossible to believe. When they were on the Today Show to announce the pregnancy with Jennifer (or Jordyn), Michelle made the comment that it was very difficult to keep this a secret til the show because her girls "watch the calendar like hawks" (presumably they follow Michelle's cycle and if it is "off", they do a pregnancy test), so we know that she is closely tracked.

I realize that maybe it was being downplayed til MacKynzie was born but it still is hardly being mentioned now. I hope that all is well.

Harriet said...

I think Michelle was trying to say that she hadn't had a cycle yet since she was still breast feeding so another reason for the surprise. I'm glad that her age they held off on the announcement a bit. I'm also glad on one hand that they are giving Josh and Anna more time to enjoy the attention on their baby. However, with the upcoming episode of Mackynzie or however they spelled it at one month I'm getting that itchy sell-out attention addict vibe.

derbygrl said...

I found it a bit ridiculous that Michelle stated she loved, loved, loved to roller skate but can't skate when she's pregnant. HUHH?

So she hasn't skated in how many years? Be truthful.

shawna said...

her girls "watch the calendar like hawks"

Okay, I heard Michelle say that too, and I just didn't even want to think about what that meant. I thought that I misunderstood her. It just seems like something personal that Michelle would track herself- there's no need to involve the girls in that process. It's kinda like announcing the conception date of the most recent pregnancy..yikes.

Anonymous said...

I'm a little concerned that Michelle did not look any more pregnant during the Noah episode than she did not the vow renewal, although this was supposedly at least six weeks later. The opening doesn't even say, "And we are expecting #19" the way they always did with the other babies, after presenting the opening photos of the children.

I wonder if everything is going ok with that pregnancy. They usually talk a lot more about it.

babybaby said...

I too am hoping that everything is going okay with this pregnancy, and that they are just choosing to keep it low key as to not upstage Mackynzie's arrival.

To Harriet...

Where did you see that there is going to be an episode about Mackynzie? I can't wait to see that!

Frightened said...

I have a question. My first experience with the Duggars was the episode of Josh and Anna's wedding. I came to the channel as they were saying their vows. I sat there with my mouth gaping...those vows horrified me! Now, I've been raised in a liberal agnostic family, and was just wondering if those type of vows are common to many faiths?

mythreesons said...

Frightened,
Christian weddings, especially Protestant, run the gammit. Some stick to a very strict formulary while others allow the couple to make up their own vows. Some ministers have their own "script" and don't allow couples to vary from it. I was taken aback by some of the things I heard in the ceremony as well, but in the end, it was their wedding and those were the vows they chose to use.

Frightened said...

mythreesons said but in the end, it was their wedding and those were the vows they chose to use.

I think my concern is that...did Anna get to choose those vows? The point of a large portion of those vows is that Anna doesn't get much choice...it's all up to God and Joshua.

Anonymous said...

I've been thinking that the character quality that might come back to haunt the Duggars is discretion.

From their website:
DISCRETION
vs. Simple-mindedness

The ability to avoid words,
actions, and attitudes which
could result in undesirable
consequences
Proverbs 22:3

Kat said...

In response to Frightened...

Here's the thing. Anna's family and the Duggars and the Bates have been taught since the day they were born to believe that "good" people behave and dress and think a certain way. They had little to no interaction with people who did not share those beliefs until recently. It is not surprising that they *truly* believe that their way of life is the best and most moral way to live.

In that sense, whether Anna actually wrote her vows, or Josh (or JimBob) wrote them and Anna merely recited them, isn't important, because Anna truly believes that that is the way her life should be lived. In her mind, it IS her choice to accept that way of life, because she would never believe that she could live any other way and be a good person.

However, even the small changes in the children's attitudes and behavior over time indicate that the exposure they have experienced through the filming of the show, the travel, the interaction with "non-believers" and the like have caused some of the children to realize that perhaps they won't instantly burst into flames if they do something like wear a skirt that exposes their calves or be in the presence of a women wearing a sports bra and running shorts. I've noticed that JimBob has backed away from his early comments that skirts should be down to a woman's ankles, and now it's something about "naked thighs" being the standard of modesty.

In that respect, I would say the show may have been beneficial for the children in that they would otherwise never have had the opportunity to interact with so many "different" people and find out that they are nice people who truly care about their families. In having to explain to the children how all these people can exist without being branded with scarlet As, the Duggar parents have had to soften some of the early rigid standards they imposed.

Is that hypocrisy? It depends - if they still truly believe in those original standards, but are compromising in an attempt to keep their children from questioning or rebelling against their lifestyle, then yes, it's hypocrisy. If, instead, it is a willingness to admit/recognize that perhaps they can adjust some of the rules that govern their lives without sacrificing their core beliefs, then that is to be welcomed. I happen to believe that the greatest tragedies in life occur when compromise is removed from the equation.

Sarah said...

Frightened--
As other posters mentioned, vows at Christian weddings are varied, but many conservative Christian couples choose vows more similar to those Josh & Anna used than those you'll find at more secular ceremonies. My husband and I used very similar vows at our ceremony a few months ago and I loved them because they reflect what we both believe about the marriage covenant. Anna comes from a very conservative Baptist background so I'm fairly positive she wouldn't have felt comfortable with vows that excluded the notion of Biblical authority and submission (The hierarchy of Christ, Husband, Wife, not forgetting that the wife is also called to love his wife as Christ loves the church).

I DO however wonder if she felt super uncomfortable with Mr. Duggar giving Josh permission to kiss her on mic. I still don't understand why the Pastor didn't just continue with "you may now kiss the bride" but . . .to each his or her own.

Im_in_PR said...

I DO however wonder if she felt super uncomfortable with Mr. Duggar giving Josh permission to kiss her on mic. I still don't understand why the Pastor didn't just continue with "you may now kiss the bride" but . . .to each his or her own.

I thought that was completely uncalled for, and just showed how much of a big show hog Jim Bob is.
The wedding is the brides show, not the groom. If anyone needed to make that proclamation (and I am doubtful it even needed to be broadcast) it should have been the pastor and or the father of the bride.

Anonymous said...

I also believe in compromise. It is unfortunate that the only"compromise" (if this is what it is) is the length of the girls' skirts, or the name brand clothing.

I would like to see compromise regarding the future for these kids, so that the girls might actually have a chance to do or see or learn something, other than doing the cooking, cleaning, and childcare for their mother for ten or fifteen years, and then immediately going into a marriage doing exactly the same thing.

I would really like to see the girls do something, anything, that shows compromise on the part of the parents, since after all, they lived a more mainstream life, with school, sports, cheerleading, their own choices in clothes, but they won't allow their children to make any choices of their own.

Im_in_PR said...

I would like to see compromise regarding the future for these kids, so that the girls might actually have a chance to do or see or learn something, other than doing the cooking, cleaning, and childcare for their mother for ten or fifteen years, and then immediately going into a marriage doing exactly the same thing.

if I may interject, I'd like to offer the view of value to the role of traditional motherhood.

I know the world at large views the job of the mother in the home as something that is not very valuable, but I believe it is, and I suspect that the Duggars do as well.

I think motherhood is a blessed occupation.

I've been a professional with a high powered career, and I've been a stay at home mom, homeschooling and nurturing my children and from the vantage point of having done both, there is no amount of money that could entice me to deposit my kids at daycare and leave the raising of them to someone else.

Anonymous said...

I am quite certain that women who work are not leaving the raising of their children to someone else. They are very much their mothers.

Now, Michelle, on the other hand, really is leaving the raising of her children to someone else, and that is mostly Jana and Jill, Jessa and Jinger. Now, one could argue that family raising family is better than childcare, but one is professional care, and one isn't. One look at the mayhem at the Duggars lately (which one does not see at a professional daycare center) and it is obvious that the girls are way over their head. They have no clue how to discipline all those little kids, and chaos reigns. Who can blame them though? They started raising babies when they weren't even teenagers!

And many of us can be mothers and interested in other things. Perhaps we go to an art class, or work part-time, or meet friends for coffee, or have a playgroup, or write in our spare time. But the point is that being a mother does not mean that you have no other interests besides cooking and cleaning. The Duggars have never shown an interest in meeting with friends, reading, doing something with others (the food pantry doens't count).

Anonymous said...

Dear Im_in_PR,

The world at large may not recognize Motherhood as the most important job there is, but I don't think that's what's happening on this board.

Clearly, you have had the opportunity in life to make choices that suit you and your family. You also must have the financial support of someone that gives you the ability to stay at home, but should that situation change, you apparently also have the ability to support your family.

I think what many of the posters here are saying is that the Duggar girls deserve the same opportunies to choose the path that suits them best.

They have been acting as mother to their siblings since their early teens. At what point do these girls get the opportunity to go out in the world and explore a bit? If the end result is a stay-at-home wife & mom, that's great. But, they might just be surprised at what else they discover "out there."

nccalgal said...

They had little to no interaction with people who did not share those beliefs until recently.
_____________
Jim Bob's parents and his sister and Amy have been part of the Duggar kids' lives all along. They all profess to be Christians but certainly do not share the same lifestyle yet JB did not question his dad's faith when he spoke at his funeral, and if he thought his sister was less of a Christian or that Amy was a bad influence on his children, you know they would not have been allowed to be around them. From what we have seen of Michelle's family, they also are more modern in the way they live as well, so I don't think it is a valid statement that the family has not been exposed to others who do not practice the same lifestyle. The beauty of the Christian faith is that it is a personal relationship and one that keeps growing the longer one walks with the Lord and understands the meaning of grace. It becomes less of me trying to be this good living person and more of letting God make me who he wants me to be. What you may see as them changing due to their "exposure" to the "real" world may just be them realizing it's less about the outside manifestations of holiness and more about inward change.

Anonymous said...

No one is undervaluing mothers. Most of us realize that it is the most important job in the world. However, those of us who have made the choice to stay at home full-time, or those who work out of the home, have made conscious choices. My problem with the Duggar model is that they will not allow those girls to make choices. Perhaps one of them would like to do something first, before becoming a housewife and mother. Is there anything wrong with that? Yes, in the Duggar model, and that is the shame.

I only wish that Jim Bob and Michelle would allow their daughters to make some conscious choices. If they choose to marry at 20 and have 19 kids, that is their choice. But not being allowed to have any opportunities isn't putting down motherhood---it's simply making a statement about the limitations imposed by the Duggar parents on their daughters.

Anonymous said...

Frightened,
Many conservative, evangelical Christian churches use Ephesians 5:22-33 as a basis for wedding vows. If you are unfamiliar with the Biblical teachings on marriage, the requirements can come as a shock! And you are right, Anna did give up her authority to God and Joshua. The husband will be accountable for the actions and decisions of the couple, and he is therefore given authority. I think of it as my husband having 51% and I have 49%. My opinions, thoughts, concerns count, but he gets to make the final decisions.

erica said...

I wonder why the duggars are not speaking much about baby #19?

Is something wrong?

Maybe Josh wants all the attention focus on his baby. Such a camera hog.

HOTW said...

I almost wonder if we might see 2 Duggar girls on campus studying nursing. I do not know if Arkansas requires a certificate for midwifery but perhaps they are finally going to get the schooling they require to be midwives/nurses. If 2 go then they are together and can watch out for the other. I hope this is what the U of Ark visit was about.

Im_in_PR said...

I only wish that Jim Bob and Michelle would allow their daughters to make some conscious choices. If they choose to marry at 20 and have 19 kids, that is their choice. But not being allowed to have any opportunities isn't putting down motherhood---it's simply making a statement about the limitations imposed by the Duggar parents on their daughters.

I understand what you are saying. But to them, the implication of giving a choice is that career vs motherhood are both equally valid choices. But within their economy (if you will, for lack of a better term) career vs motherhood are not equally valid choices.

Strangely enough, while Gothard "preaches" womanly submission and the stay at home mother as optimum, he is happy to avail himself of the free labor of many of his young female followers as missionaries of his teachings. Which is sort of another tangent, but you get where I am going with it.... :-)

Im_in_PR said...

Clearly, you have had the opportunity in life to make choices that suit you and your family. You also must have the financial support of someone that gives you the ability to stay at home, but should that situation change, you apparently also have the ability to support your family.


I think what many of the posters here are saying is that the Duggar girls deserve the same opportunies to choose the path that suits them best.


Thanks for everyone's replies. I just wanted to clarify a bit if I may.

I guess in a perfect world, I would wish that the older daughters, indeed all the Duggar daughters would be given the opportunity for more education or learning a trade before their marriages. At the same time, I would that ever mother would stay with her children rather than sending them off to day care to raise.

I just have a heart for kids to be with their parents, especially mom, when they are young.

Hope I am not getting too personal here, but while my husband does work, it is not a high paying career, and we do make a lot of financial choices for me to stay home. We both drive cars that are 10 years old. Not pretty, but we have kept them up and they run well. And not having a car payment every month is extremely helpful. Our home is in a city with a horrible school district, but instead of private school, we homeschool, which is pretty cheap to do. I but very few new clothes for myself. I guess what I am trying to say is that sometimes it hard, but I think its always worth it.

My mom died when I was 19, my baby sister was 8. I just have this idea that tomorrow is not promised, and I need to be here while I can.

I think it would be easier for young ladies to make the choice for motherhood if the world at large attached some value to it.

In my own case, the reason I had a career first was because I was brainwashed by the feminist movement. Honestly, when I was in college, I thought the worst thing that could ever happen to me was that I might grow up and be "stuck at home" with kids.

I still work about 10 hours a week from home, more if they need me for a crisis project, but I can honestly say that I am very thankful to be stuck at home with the kids now. :-)

Anonymous said...

Im_in_PR said...

Honestly, when I was in college, I thought the worst thing that could ever happen to me was that I might grow up and be "stuck at home" with kids.
------------------------------

Thank you for sharing your story. I don't think you were the only one to have thought this. Unless you are already on the marriage & family track while in college, a career would be the next logical choice. Then, after some years on that path, it can be difficult to change focus toward the kids alone.

I wonder if the Duggar girls don't have the same thing going on in reverse, so to speak. They have been trained to believe the wife & mother role is the next logical step. What if that doesn't happen right away? Will they still be at home at age 25, age 30? Not that that's terrible thing, I lived at home until age 30, but I also worked full time and paid rent to my parents.

Amy said...

Now that Joy is getting so much older...I wonder if Jordyn will become her buddy?

Kat said...

nccalgal - A couple of thoughts...Exposure to one's family members who share similar, but not the exact same, religious and lifestyle choices that you do is, IMO, a very different thing from letting your children engage deeply with people who have a very different world view and lifestyle. As you so rightly stated, if they had been of very different persuasions, it is unlikely the Duggars (pre-show)would have allowed them the close access to the family. However, now they are actively engaging with and exposing their children to people whom they would not, if pressed, consider appropriate role models or otherwise associate with (Dolly Parton, dancers in restaurants, women in sports bras and shorts). While they have been very careful not to utter any derogatory comments about these people, the comments they have made in the past certainly show their deeper beliefs. So it would seem that they are allowing the show to influence their choices for the sake of all-expenses paid vacations and other perks. Which is their right, but I also have the right to notice and comment on it as a negative change in regard to their professed beliefs. At the same time, I am GLAD the children are getting to see a different view of the world, so I am, perversely, in favor of JimBob giving in to the material desires of the world, because it unlocks that door just a little bit for the children and lets them see there is something else out there and that you do not instantly fall from grace into hell by being a part of it.

roddma said...

I read an article where more women are choosing to be childless. WHy ? Because they found there is choice. Does this make them an evil person Of course not I wonder what the Duggars would say if any of the kids decides to remain childless, have full time careers,send their kids to public school or the girls decide live on their own single. They dont know other possibilites exist. I would never go for the vows of 'leaving kids up to God' Nobody is promised anything in this life

Cyn said...

You used to be able to go to TLC's site and watch full episodes...

Now I can't find anything but short clips. Does any one know what happened to the full episodes? I haven't had cable TV in almost 3 years so the only places I could watch them was either on TLC or youtube. (We have internet for our home based businesses.)

Could it be that TLC quit showing them so they could sell more of the seasonal DVD's?

Cyn

Anonymous said...

I for one hope the Duggar daughters are persuing additional studies in private. I would not want to attend school (trade or college) with a camera recording my every move. Its hard to enough to adjust to higher education without snoops. I know they would pay but is there nothing private or sacred? I honestly dont know. Maya

silimom said...

Lurker, occasional poster here. Someone commented that they wondered how Michelle and JB get there kids to conform to their beliefs without question.

As a Christian parent, I can tell you it's difficult to raise your kids in today's culture. You can't kidproof the world so you try your best to worldproof your kids. Some Christians accomplish this by doing it like the Duggars - homeschool, no tv, internet, etc. There are days when that approach has a LOT of appeal, trust me. Others, like my husband and I, let our children go to public school and have access to television and the internet and friends of different backgrounds. We moderate what they watch and view and we try and discuss it with them to give them the tools to look at things critically and think about what their seeing or hearing. Ultimately, their faith has to be their own, in our opinion. Otherwise, it's not much of a faith.

Im_in_PR said...

While they have been very careful not to utter any derogatory comments about these people, the comments they have made in the past certainly show their deeper beliefs.

It seems that your implication is that the Duggars are disdainful and derogatory towards others just because they are different.

My impression is not that they are disdainful of how the world at large lives. It seems more that they want to protect the innocence and purity of the children God has given them.

IF I was them, I wouldn't apologize for one minute for how I lived and raised my kids. We all live according to the dictates of our consciences, no apologies are necessary in my book

Im_in_PR said...

Others, like my husband and I, let our children go to public school and have access to television and the internet and friends of different backgrounds.

Where do you draw the line as far as background goes? Just curious as to where the Christian parent stops and says "no, I can't allow you to associate with those kids" or where do they say "sure, go ahead, what can it hurt?" Is there a place where the decision is made, in a sense?

Amy D. said...

The only thing that I do not understand is why people spend time wondering why the Duggar family has strayed so much from their roots.
They haven't strayed! Their world has gotten much, much larger. Before TLC, Michelle had to make their clothes...it was cheaper to do so. Remember, their world was quite small before the family became famous. They were devoted to the family and their church. Now that they dress a bit more modern, people pick on them for changing. Just because they now have producers doesn't mean they changed their core beliefs.

Anonymous said...

When you sell your family out for money, I think that is definitely changing their core beliefs. A family that wants to live modestly, homeschool, make their own clothes, have no debt, and have 20 or 40 kids...good for them.

But when Jim Bob and now Josh decided to use their families as money making businesses, with all the perks and negativity that come with it, they ceased adhering to their original beliefs. No modest family shows a birth on television, or even would be so cavalier about their children's safety.

The family once claimed to be worried about outside influences, but they certainly have advertised their family on tv. Most people can look up where they live on Google earth, and creeps could easily find the girls. That is about as obvious a betrayal of claiming to want to be free of outside influences as there is.

I think modesty and protection of children, which were at one time the most important to the Duggar parents, have simply flown out the window, since apparently trips, clothes, money and other material possessions are of greater importance.

That is very sad to see.

sandra said...

This morning I watched the episode of when Michelle and Anna both went to the doctor.

Jim Bob and Michelle were quite proud to tell anyone who would listen that she thinks they conceived the child on Father's Day...Josh and Anna looked like they were going to hurl!!

It was totally disgusting. Some things are not meant to be shared with others. That was no one else's business but theirs. Gross.

And what is the deal with everyone saying how the girls 'watch' Michelle's calendar?? that is TOTALLY CREEPY.

The Duggars are going the way of the Gosselin's, and fast....(and that is a shame, because I think for the most part they are a very nice family).

Im_in_PR said...

The Duggars are going the way of the Gosselin's, and fast....

When Michelle starts using the kids money to get a boob job, leaving her family for weeks at a time and bragging about not calling home for the duration, spending more personal time with her valet/bodyguard than she does Jim Bob, I'll start to worry. :-)

Im_in_PR said...

Anonymous said...

When you sell your family out for money, I think that is definitely changing their core beliefs.


I am starting to agree. I noticed that last week they were at Biltmore Baptist, speaking and selling their book. According to what the Duggars have said they believe, they wouldn't actually be members or attend a liberal church like Biltmore Baptist. But they will go there and speak to them and sell their book?

I guarantee you that the talk they gave wasn't on the points of disagreement they have with Biltmore, which were plenty. (Rock music in the worship service, immodest dress as the norm there, using bible versions other than the KJV.)

Once they start to compromise their beliefs to make money (and they have) the outcome can't be good.

Anonymous said...

That would be my concern, and that there is no turning back. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it is nearly impossible to put back in.

I do wonder if one day the family will sit back and wonder why they sold themselves to the devil like that, and whether it was worth it. It can't end well, when a naive family like that puts themselves out there for the world to see, and acts hypocritically about all the issues they used to claim to profess or follow.

Anonymous said...

Most people can look up where they live on Google earth, and creeps could easily find the girls.
************************

That is so very true. I have thought about that also. Even when the show eventually ends and they are no longer under the TLC umbrella, this information is out there forever. Maybe something along those lines is what one of the girls (I forget who) hinted at when she said the possible suiters have been weirdos.

-Katydid

sandra said...

The Duggars are going the way of the Gosselin's, and fast....

When Michelle starts using the kids money to get a boob job, leaving her family for weeks at a time and bragging about not calling home for the duration, spending more personal time with her valet/bodyguard than she does Jim Bob, I'll start to worry. :-)

11/09/2009 1:01 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

well, they are headed in that direction though.

Josh and Anna learning the sex of the baby on national tv? and letting a tv anchor tell them?
josh and anna filming the birth, and using footage in the show?

uh....yea, I do think they are headed in the way of the gosselin's.
sad, too.

luvmybabies said...

I also worry a little bit about the safety of the girls. In their book, they also published the floor layout of their house. I found it very interesting and enjoyed looking at it, but if there are creeps stalking the girls they know exactly where the house is and where the girls' room is. Those girls are all so pretty and sweet, I would hate for them to be somebody's target. Likely nothing will ever happen, but it's a little concern I have.

One thing I don't understand though, is why so many people say the girls have "no choices" as to what they will do with their lives. Yes they have probably been taught to be a wife and full-time mother. They may have even been taught that to go out on your own or to college is wrong (though we don't know for sure). But, ultimately we all end up doing exactly what we believe in, we all follow the dictates of our own conscience.

How many people do you know who were raised a certain way and then chose to live differently as adults? I know plenty. If the Duggar girls want to go to college, I don't see why they won't. Even if mom and dad don't approve, I don't think J & M are the type who would "disown" or shun their kids for choosing other things. Most parents, although they may be disappointed, end up making peace with their children and accepting them despite their choices which may contradict their upbringing. I think J & M would do that. Maybe they wouldn't support them financially to go to college - there again, the girls can still do it if they want to. Many kids' parents don't or can't support them in college, but they go anyway. No the girls haven't had outside jobs before, but it isn't much of a learning curve to make sandwiches at Subway and run a cash register, which is what I did for a job in college. The girls' social skills are fine, and they wouldn't be running for a padded room and a helmet. My own parents didn't support my college degree, but I wanted to go so I did. I ended up with student loans that way, but I was able to reach my goal.

My point is that even though the Duggar girls were likely raised to follow their parents' teachings, they are as free as any of us to make their own choices. Parental disapproval or lack of financial support shouldn't be any bigger issues for the Duggar girls than us "regular folks". If the girls feel they have been too sheltered, it doesn't take long to go out into the world and get ideas about other things. I think the girls have been exposed to a large amount by being part of this TV show. I think they know what's out there, and if they don't want to get married and have lots of babies, then they won't. Michelle's OB is a woman, they've seen her work with Michelle and deliver her babies. I don't think the girls are quite as sheltered as people think they are. Also, I think their high school education is perfectly adequate to allow them to go on to other things if they want to. I learned nothing in high school and I did fine at a university, and these girls, being homeschooled, probably learned way more than I did.

I just don't see that the girls don't have "choices."

Sharla said...

To our "holier than thou" commenter, please read through some of the blog discussion post where we say that sermonettes are not allowed. That might answer your question about why your comments don't go through. This isn't a blog for conversion of others to your beliefs by repeating them over and over or quoting scripture at them.

Comments both pro and con are allowed, but not to the point where you are trying to "convert" all commenters to "your side." Thank you.

Anonymous said...

luvmybabies.... I understand everything you wrote in your last post, and it makes a lot of sense. I've seen plenty of people put themselves through college or take a different path from their parents as well. The thing I worry about though, is how easy is it for the girl to actually do this? It may sound easy, but I, for example, have a bachelor's degree but did not work in high school or college, and I honestly cannot find a job for the life of me, because of my lack of "verifiable work experience."

While the girls may be old enough to make their own choices, I don't see how they can easily get out of the house without getting married. Say one of the girls wanted to move into an apartment with a friend, for example. She would have to find a job and save up enough money, while still living with M&J and living under their disapproval. Even if the girls don't WANT to wait until their parents match them with a suitor and allow them to get married and leave, I don't see any other realistic way that they can leave the house.

I don't believe M&J will give a house or a business to a single daughter. I agree with you that once they are on their own they have freedom to make choices, but the question is... how will they get there to begin with? Look at Jana, for example, who is still at home. I don't see how she will move out unless and until her parents find someone for her to marry. She doesn't have a job, and I know they have friends, but their lack of social contacts is limited and their friends' families seem to follow the same philosophies as M&J, so I can't see her running away and moving in with a friend or something, or taking a car and sneaking out of the house to go apply for a job.

I know this is getting long, but I just wanted to say that I completely understand and agree with your post. I just feel sad for the girls that before they can even get to that point where they are free to make choices, they have to somehow get out of the house, and I just don't see this happening without getting married first.
-Christina

Anonymous said...

I am not sure the girls could imagine themselves doing anything other than what they have always done. I do wonder about Jana though, and how she feels about sharing a room with her toddler sisters. A young woman (and man like John David) do need a bit of privacy, if only for their own thoughts. The older really should not be getting up at night with the baby or toddler siblings, since that is Michelle's job. Does Jana have any hopes and dreams? Any aspirations at all? I imagine getting married and having children may be the extent of her dreams. No problem with that, except that Michelle can't run the house without her, so I doubt that Jana will be leaving any time soon.

Also, whether or not someone will try to kidnap one of the girls, or not...I think it is foolish to have so much information so available to so many people. Maybe the Duggars really are that naive, but there are a lot of people out there who would do harm to beautiful young women. It's just not a chance I would ever, ever take with my precious children, and I don't understand why Michelle and Jim Bob would. Privacy is so important, particularly in this day and age. Look what happens to people when they give up their privacy? It has happened to so many reality show people.

I really worry for this family.

luvmybabies said...

As I recall, I didn't have to save money from a job to get into an apartment at college. Before my freshman year I contacted the college and asked about student loans. The money I received was used to pay for dorms,(which are relatively inexpensive), food, books and tuition. I had no money to my name either. The Duggar girls could do this if they really wanted to go to college. Jana should have some money that is rightfully hers from the show anyway, although I know there are JimBob controlling her money theories out there. Who knows. But if so, there are good old student loans available. Or, the Duggars live close enough to the U of Ark, I believe it is, that they could live at home and take classes there, which J & M might approve of since they'd be at home.

I really think, though, that the older girls really want to get married and don't have much interest in college. Of course that has to do with their upbringing, but you can't force that on someone. People want what they want, and 19 is old enough to have a good idea of what you want. My parents thought I should get married early and not mess much with college, like my older sister did, but I decided as a teenager I wanted a degree, and so I set out to get it, and I never wavered from the goal, even though I did get married and also had a baby before I was through. I guess that's why I have a hard time feeling like the girls are oppressed, as my situation was similar, and I did just what I wanted even though my parents weren't supportive. And my parents didn't disown me, I think they were just surprised as much as anything, and they ended up being proud.

If the Duggar girls did choose something different, the choice might not be as easy as it is for some other people, but they do have the choice.

Kat said...

Anybody watch the "Born to Breed" Secret Lives of Women on WE TV tongiht? It addresses the Quiverfull movement from the point of view of the woman, and (I thought) did a pretty good job showing women who are happy with it and those who are not. Parts were a bit scary to me, like the insistence on no birth control, even when the mother's life would be at risk. On the other hand, it was nice to see one Quiverfull family taking their daughters to ballet class in leotards and tights, and another water skiing in "normal" swim suits. Guess not all Quiverers are ATI/Gothard adherents.

One thing I just can't get past in any of these evangelical movements, though, is the picking and choosing of which Scripture is somehow deemed worthy of "total obedience" and which is simply ignored. If God's word is inviolate, doesn't that mean EVERY word? How do they justify the discrepancies?

Anonymous said...

The influence of Bill Gothard and ATI cannot be overemphasized. Higher education is not only discouraged, it is practically outlawed for girls. The older four girls just went to Michigan for a Gothard retreat. There is no way that they are not fully indoctrinated, between their parents and the ATI/Gothard "teachings". I don't think any of the girls will be going to college, and it may or not be because they would like to. They are so indoctrinated that they would never even see it as a choice.

Im_in_PR said...

Guess not all Quiverers are ATI/Gothard adherents.

The Quiverfull movement is really something very different than Gothardism. I'd be interested in discussing this if it's ok in this free discussion area?

Anonymous said...

Some of the Jeub girls, another Quiverful family (and happily proud of it) wear jeans and pants. So, I guess skirts are not a Quiverful requirement, only a Gothard one.

luvmybabies said...

I was "indoctrinated" growing up by my religion - church, camps, retreats, midweek church activities, books, magazines, music, etc. - all teaching heavily my church's doctrines and practices - also, most of the people I associated with were of my same religion, and my entire (large) family were of the same religion also. I was pretty sheltered. But by the time I was a young adult, I was fully aware that most of the world didn't believe and act like I had been trained to. I also knew I could choose to reject my family's teachings and live my life any way I pleased, parents or no parents. I went through a questioning and intensive study process of my own through my teen and young adult years, and finally decided for myself about whether or not I believe the teachings I was "indoctrinated" with (I do.) The Duggar girls, just like all of us, will have to question and arrive at their own belief systems, between them and God. No one held a gun to my head, and no one is holding a gun to theirs either. I wasn't "allowed" to question and break away from childhood teachings any more than the Duggar girls are allowed to, nevertheless I did question and break away in some respects.

I only share my own experience because I feel it's similar to the Duggar girls' situation, and I firmly believe they have choices as much as the rest of us. We all search for what's inside of us.

It goes both ways - a person who was raised firmly atheist and secular has a choice to question, search, and convert to conservative Christianity or anything else if they choose to. But I don't hear people saying those children don't have any choices in life because they've been indoctrinated with atheism. KWIM?

Im_in_PR said...

I only share my own experience because I feel it's similar to the Duggar girls' situation, and I firmly believe they have choices as much as the rest of us. We all search for what's inside of us.

I thought that was a great post.

KyGirl said...

Im_in_PR:
I noticed that last week they were at Biltmore Baptist, speaking and selling their book. According to what the Duggars have said they believe, they wouldn't actually be members or attend a liberal church like Biltmore Baptist.
********
Are you saying Biltmore Baptist is liberal? Or that the church is liberal in comparison to the Duggars?

BBC is a member of the Southern Baptist Conference which has kicked out the "liberal" congregations. And I can guarantee you that BBC is not seen as anything near liberal in the Asheville area.

Anonymous said...

But what would "indoctrination with atheism" entail? Forcing a person NOT to believe something?

While I appreciate the analogy, I don't think that the strict ATI upbringing of the Duggars, with their limited life choices, can be compared to an atheist (who if anything, has too many choices). If the Duggars were allowed out, to experience school, friends, time away from the family, a real church, etc., then if they chose to stay home and raise a large family once could feel it was a personal choice. But when they have never had an option of having any real choices, and are still expected to go on field trips and share rooms with their toddler siblings, I wouldn't say much of anything they do speaks to any free will.

I still hope one of those girls will break away. I don't think it will be Jana or Jill. Maybe Jinger or Jessa, since they seem to hold much less responsibility than the older sisters.

RachieK. said...

The Quiverful philosophy spans many denominations. I know some of the women on that special were Catholic, a faith that has traditionally banned all forms of birth conrol but "Natural Family Planning." We have seen enormous families in this church for many generations (Irish Catholics, mostly). It seems as it has less to do with church affilliation and more to do with personal conviction.

Obviously the underlying message is "children are a gift from God," but it's interesting to see your everyday practicing Catholic family in the same category as the Duggar clan.

Im_in_PR said...

KYGirl said "Are you saying Biltmore Baptist is liberal? Or that the church is liberal in comparison to the Duggars?

BBC is a member of the Southern Baptist Conference which has kicked out the "liberal" congregations. And I can guarantee you that BBC is not seen as anything near liberal in the Asheville area."


Personally, to me they would be liberal for the following reasons:
Use of rock music.
Use of non standard Bible versions throughout the congregation and pastoral staff.
Embrace of world;y sales tactics to get people to come to their church.

So while I realize that in Ashville Biltmore is not considered liberal in some circles, in other circles it would be.

Also, based on what the Duggars have said, I think that they would consider the church liberal as well, especially due to the pants issue.

So I think it is a compromise on the Duggars part to be willing to go and sell books at a church they would not be members of.

nccalgal said...

The Hudson River landing and Captain "Sully" are positive news items and I think Sully was on Huckabee and the Duggars are Huckabee fans, so I'm sure they told their kids about the heroic pilot who kept his cool and saved everyone on board. The kids may not have direct access to the news, but JB and Michelle wouldn't miss an opportunity for a teaching moment, especially where character building would be involved.

Laura said...

On the atheism indoctrination vs. Gothard indoctrination, having been raised in a Gothard-loving, fundamentalist home and later becoming an atheist, I can testify that there is a WORLD of difference.

In Gothard-land, there is one path for a daughter, and that is wife and mother. If her father does not wish for her to go to college, she doesn't go. Even those who wind up adhering to this less strictly still find themselves pigeonholed in narrow slots. Individual talents don't matter if they don't match up to the fundamentalist ideal.

In atheist-land, there is a world of possibilities, generally speaking. Of course, you will always have a parent here and there that wants their child to be a doctor or other specific occupation, but also teaches their children to come to their own conclusions.

I think the biggest difference is that, generally speaking, atheism generally teaches people to think for themselves whereas fundamentalism teaches people to "have faith" when something doesn't make any sense.

Having experienced womanhood in both camps, I'll take atheism, thanks! :)

Jane in California said...

I don't watch this show much anymore, because they seem to be doing things (outings, going on TLC's bridal dress show, etc) to help prop up ratings rather than showing them in their every day lives as they used to do. I also stopped watching as I began to feel more and more sad seeing the older girls basically required to be stand in parents and household workers 24/7, with what appeared to be very little break. It sunk in especially for me when the older girls went to Anna's house to help make bridesmaid dresses for the upcoming wedding. There was a lot of talk of how they "had to" go back home to help out with the kids, etc. I think they couldn't have been away for more than a week, if that!

I do not agree with having so many children that you come to rely on your older daughters (not the sons, just the daughters) to care for the children, cook the food, clean the house, etc. Of course all children should help out around the house, but these girls are asked to do too much, and much of what I consider should be Michelle and JB's job -- raising their own children!

I'm also sorry that it doesn't appear any of the children aspire to higher learning. There are many private conservative colleges, that would offer broader horizons and higher learning for any of these children. I feel that the Duggars purposely want to remain ignorant of the real world, and that's a disservice to your kids as well.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I personally think it takes more faith to be an athiest. Having faith does not mean you put your "brain" on hold and zero in on faith.

Julie said...

Based on their television show, I like the Duggars, I do agree they are a bit odd. And like othrs, I think the 'Duggar-Time' is rude. However, it amazes me how people pick on their Christian religion, if they were devout Muslims or Jewish folks, I doubt they would be mocked... As I typed this, I began to think devout Muslims, Jewish, etc., may not participate in something like this... Even so, it's a big world and there's plenty of room for all of us to live how we feel is best for ourselves and our families I suppose.

Tangerine Tanya said...

I can't seem to find Duggars Fly The Coop on YOUTUBE. Does anyone know if it is under a different title?

Thank you

Im_in_PR said...

Julie said..."However, it amazes me how people pick on their Christian religion, if they were devout Muslims or Jewish folks, I doubt they would be mocked..."

I've not seen very much mocking at this blog. I have however seen some great indepth discussions regarding some things that the Duggars practice in their following of a man, Bill Gothard.

Anonymous said...

Since the daughters tend to be in charge of most of the child care responsibilites , what will happen after those daughters get married and leave home?
I believe the four eldest daughters are at or close to the age where they would get married and then it is mostly sons and then the youngest daughters(sorry I can't recall the exact birth order!)
JB and Michelle are in their 40's and once commented when their older daughters went away for a weekend, about how much work it was to take care of the remaining children.
It will be interesting to see if the sons start to take a more active role in caring for their siblings and household chores(cooking, cleaning etc) once their sisters start to leave home

Cyn said...

Anonymous said...

Since the daughters tend to be in charge of most of the child care responsibilites , what will happen after those daughters get married and leave home?
I believe the four eldest daughters are at or close to the age where they would get married and then it is mostly sons and then the youngest daughters(sorry I can't recall the exact birth order!)
JB and Michelle are in their 40's and once commented when their older daughters went away for a weekend, about how much work it was to take care of the remaining children.
It will be interesting to see if the sons start to take a more active role in caring for their siblings and household chores(cooking, cleaning etc) once their sisters start to leave home

11/15/2009 7:15 AM
********
The girls may not get married till they are 20, and I personally took it as a playful joke when Michelle said that about "how much work there was"

The boys help in the house work now. The entire house helps in after meal clean up and dishes. Several of the boys help with the laundry and the keeping the bathrooms clean. And several of the older boys have their own buddies as well. (I've heard her call on the intercom for different boys to do bring the laundry down. Sorry I don't remember the names she called) And I have seen different boys helping with their buddy.

What they may miss as the older girls move out is the help in packing for trips and menu making and dinner prep.

Anonymous said...

I admit I haven't read the Duggar's book, so maybe this is addressed there, but here goes.

We often hear from the children (I've mostly heard Josh mention this) how wise their father is and how they can go to him with any problem and he will have the answer.

That's fine, one should respect their parents and value their advise. However, oddly enough Jim Bob did not do this himself. While I'm pretty sure that Grandpa Duggar valued family & the Christian lifestyle, his son seems to have taken those core beliefs a step further.

I think this goes back to whether the children will follow precisely in their parents' footsteps or at some point realize that these same folks did not follow their own parents and despite being raised in a more relaxed (for lack of a better term) home they turned out fine.

Anonymous said...

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how the Bates family makes their money? I seem to recall something about a tree-cutting business, but I'm just wondering if this is all they do? I really look up to both of these families, and I wish my family could come up with such creative ways to support ourselves. Just curious how they do it!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 7:40, that is such a good point about JB not following his own parents, yet expecting his children to follow his example. I really never thought about that before. You are right that the children seem to think their dad has all the answers and probably have not realized or somehow explain away the fact that JB did not give the same credence to his own dad.
-Christina

Anonymous said...

I'm watching 17 Kids and Counting where the Bates come to visit the Duggars. Kelly Bates made SUCH a wise comment with a very sound explanation in response to the question "What would you say to people who say you are sheltering your kids?" She responded something to the effect of "I would say it's wise to shelter a plant until it's ready to withstand the harsh weather, and then there's a time to put it out there and let it blossom, but I think you can definitely do that too soon." I really loved this philosophy, and I don't see any way that one can argue with it! This really got me wondering about how the Bates compare to the Duggars in this respect. It doesn't seem that the Duggars practice the part about their being a time to let them go and see what they turn into, or however Kelly put it. The Bates seem to have a very healthy perspective on this, while it seems like the Duggars only practice the sheltering part.
-Christina

Kat said...

If it's true that the Bates refused to allow one of their daughters to accept a music scholarship to college (or guilted her into refusing it), then I would have to say they are "sheltering" as much as the Duggars. The problem with the "plant" analogy (and I've heard it before) is that all too often, the parents never think their precious "plant" is ready to withstand the weather outside. I've had friends who were not religious, but couldn't bear to let their children go out into the "real" world alone. I always wondered just what they expected that child to do on the day when they were no longer there? What if a catastrophe or accident occurred? Yes, we all want to support and protect our children, but one day they *will* be on their own, whether we like it or not.

Cyn said...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 7:40, that is such a good point about JB not following his own parents, yet expecting his children to follow his example. I really never thought about that before. You are right that the children seem to think their dad has all the answers and probably have not realized or somehow explain away the fact that JB did not give the same credence to his own dad.
-Christina
**********************************
The Bates live in "my backyard" of east TN, they run a successful tree trimming business. They appear frequently on Ciderville music (a show broadcast on our local TV channel) I don't know if they get paid for that or not though.

They also attend church out on Clinton Hwy (a southern baptist church). So unlike the Duggars they do attend a real church building and are active in that same church.

Cyn said...

ooops That last one was supposed to be in response to the Bates question... That's what I get for trying to finish homeschooling lessons and blogging at the same time.

Anonymous said...

I am a regular viewer of the Duggars and love the show. I sent Josh and Anna a gift for Mackyenzie a few weeks ago and have not heard anything back. I know they must have received it by now. I gave them my email and home address to contact me. I went to their website and when I tried to email them to see if they received it I got an automatic response which said something to the effect that "we get so many emails we can't respond to all of them." I was just wondering what other people thought of this. I think it is very un-christian like to receive a gift and not even acknowledge it. I put a lot of work into this gift. It was a personalized name poem that I matted and framed. It contained all the info of the baby's birth, date, weight, etc. All I wanted was an acknowledgment and maybe a thank you. What do you think?

sandra said...

I have a feeling that when the girls marry, they will have to live close to the Duggars. I would be shocked if one of the girls married a Bates and moved away. I don't think Jim Bob would allow it.
I might get attacked for my opinion, but that is what I think! :)

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I seriously thought of sending a gift to the baby as well. I make special blankets and baby dresses. People I know are honored to get anything made from me as I too put a lot of love and work in what I do. I just have not done it first cause I did not have their address and secondly I do not know how they feel about getting gifts from someone they do not know personally. Now that I know they have not responded to your gift I will pass on making them something special and take my time and money to make something for someone who I know and would appreciate it. Too bad as I know you must have spent a lot of time making something special as I know I take hours and hours of work behind anything I make and it shows it.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I do not think Jim Bob has any power over where his daughters live after they are married. In their believes it is not uncommon for the wife to move near the area of the husband so if he follows what is usually done with the courtship type of marriages he will let his daughters move away.

Anonymous said...

Just me, but I think sending gifts to TV families is way creepy. They are making plenty of money off the show and they should get gifts from people who actually know them. That viewers start sending gifts a la Gosselin shows it's time to get off the TV.

Anonymous said...

I'm not surprised that you got an automated response. If you think about it, the Duggar family, as well as J&A, probably receive a LOT of emails, and not all of them are good. Just because you received that response right away (it's automatic, so does everybody else) doesn't mean they won't respond later. I also have wondered this, though. JB puts his family's address and email address out there for everyone to have, and I wondered why since he sends out the same automated message. They probably didn't anticipate getting the volume of messages that they do now when they first started, but honestly I don't blame them for putting up that message. Half of what they get is probably rude mail, or they are honestly overwhelmed with all of the mail (bad and good) and don't want to spend their lives in front of the computer responding. I do agree that it's kind of odd to put your home address or email address out there though, if you don't have the time to respond. In a way, it does seem like they are asking for freebies, or else why put it out there. At the same time, I wouldn't have expected them to respond back personally if I were you. They are a famous and busy family now, and I would assume that they probably do appreciate the gift. I just think it was a little unrealistic to expect a reply back.
-Christina

Anonymous said...

To the poster that sent a gift. Keep in mind they are new parents (the baby is 6-7 weeks old). Not sure how the baby is sleeping or how much help they have. And they most likely got tons of gifts from viewers, friends, family and various media outlets. Give them time to respond. I bet they are just sleep deprived parents, not ungratful.

pumpkin said...

Just to point out - the address on the Duggar's website and also Josh and Anna's website is the address of the car dealership, not their home.

If you sent something there, it may be a couple of days before they get over there to pick it up.

I think it is very sweet that you sent a handmade gift, I am sure they loved it, but just don't have the time right now to write back to you. Hopefully they will do so when things calm down for them.

Anonymous said...

This might be kind of an alternative view to gift-giving, and I really hope it doesn't come across as snarky. To the poster who sent the gift... I completely understand how you would feel dissapointed after putting so much time and effort into the gift and not getting a reply. However, you chose to send it. They didn't ask for gifts from the viewers (although I, too, wonder why they even give out their address), and they may just not have time to respond. Either way, you made the choice. Although I believe thank you notes are very appropriate and I personally appreciate them, if a person CHOOSES to give a GIFT, then they should still be happy that the recipient has the gift, whether they are thanked or not.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I do not think it is creepy to send them a gift at all. I seem to know them not only from TV but their books. I see them as extended family as I too am a Christian and as Christians we are one huge family. Sending a gift as I wanted or the other party is not like we are sending money to support them or taking something away we could give to chairity. Her gift had to do with the baby's name and mine was making some hand made especially for their first baby, something I do for other family members and friends. It is not at all creepy. These are just thoughts to give in a viusual way to a family some of us may admore and respect. Nothing more.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Yes, I understand they may be behind in thanking others with a new baby. I recently gave gifts to those with new babyes and have not heard anything from them as well. Of course it is nice to just get a word to know tht they did receive a gift being it was not given in person.

Im_in_PR said...

All I wanted was an acknowledgment and maybe a thank you. What do you think?

I don't think anyone should ever send a gift to someone they do not know, especially something that is meant to be displayed.

It seems to me that would be assuming quite a lot about how people you do not know may or may not wish to decorate their home.

Anonymous said...

I don't want to start anything, but I think the person complaining about not getting a thank you is being rather rude.

I imagine they receive all kinds of stuff from fans, letters, emails, gifts, etc.

It takes time to go through all that stuff.

Plus they just had a baby.

Give 'em a break.

nccalgal said...

Sharla,
This thread has been fun and I hope you continue with one for December.

Sharla said...

There is one scheduled. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

re whether they should personally thank someone they don't know for a gift --
i know this was discussed on the other board - how someone in their position just can't know who is sending them stuff. most people may be innocent and sincere, but they really can never tell when someone is about to cross the line to obsessed fan. i personally think it would be wise to be very careful about individually acknowledging unsolicited gifts since this could well encourage those who are more likely to cross that line.

sending a very personalize gift and expecting a personalized response could be seen as presuming a personal relationship with them -- i could understand why this could be an area for caution.

i have no idea if that is what is going on -- they may well get around to sending individual thank yous for all i know -- but if they did, wouldn't they then be subject to criticism expressing concern as to whether they are being naive about potential dangers?

Anonymous said...

Some other posters have mentioned the way the Duggars "shop" through the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, and pick and choose which rules to follow and which to discard. As we've discussed, many of the "rules" the Duggars have are based on Old Testament principles. Most of us agree that these practices no longer stand (polygamy, etc.). One of the stories I wonder about is the story of Abraham and Sarah. When Sarah couldn't get pregnant, she allowed Abraham to sleep with their servant. Isn't this essentially the same concept as using a fertility treatment to influence how many children a person can have? According to the Quiverfull movement, it seems that Sarah shouldn't have attempted to give her husband children if she wasn't meant to have them (at the point in time). I wonder what the Duggars think about this story?

Anonymous said...

My guess is one of the Duggar girls will marry a Bates boy and JimBob will allow them to build a house on his land.

But I'm still waiting for the John David and Erin courtship

Anonymous said...

The problem with allowing cameras in, and people knowing exactly where they live, the layout of their home, their phone number, their place of business, the numbers of many of their friends (which are on that phone in the kitchen and rarely blacked out) means that a lot of nice people, as well as creeps and weirdos, think they have a more intimate relationship with these reality families than they really do.

Because we see their intimate lives, they feel like we know them. The Duggars have made themselves vulnerable this way. Of course, they can get well meaning gifts, phone calls (I have heard that people call them personally) and letters/emails/cards. But they might also get a lot of unwanted attention, because so much of their personal information is out there for anyone to see.

In this day and age, I just think it is lunacy to compromise your family's safety and privacy this way. But here, this oh-so moral and Christian family, has done just that. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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