Baby 19 has Arrived

Michelle gave birth to baby 19, Josie Brooklyn on December 10th. The baby is currently in the NICU, in stable condition, for what's expected to be an extended stay. Our thoughts are with Michelle, Josie, and the entire Duggar family.

link

Additional People article.

Update 12/16/09.

Update 12/18/09 provided by Cristina. People. Survival and disability rates.

293 comments:

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luvmybabies said...

God bless that sweet little girl and her mother. Anyone know exactly how many weeks along she was?

Miss Chris said...

The baby only weighs 1lb 6 oz. This is incredible premature and I am worried for them.

B'More Gal said...

Aww congratulations to the Duggar Family!!! I really thought this one would be a boy! I'm glad that the baby was born healthy, but I really hope this is their last. The older Michelle gets, the more risky the pregnancies will become.

Mrs. Nesh said...

I'm praying for a speedy recovery for Michelle and the baby. This is so scary because she was due about 2 weeks before me and I can't imagine having my baby right now. May God bless them both.

pumpkin said...

My prayers are with Michelle and baby Josie and the whole rest of the family. 1 pound 6 ounces is pretty tiny! My prayers are also with the doctors and nurses, who can do pretty amazing things these days.

I really hope that TLC gives the family some privacy and doesn't try to intrude on the family over the next several weeks as they come to grips with this news.

I love the Duggars and I think they have an amazing family and strong values. I really hope that they draw the line on any further pregnancies at this point and focus instead on raising up the 19 children they have.

I know that I, who have never met the Duggars, would be devastated if anything happened to any member of the family. I cannot imagine the potential grief of those who know them well.

chocolatebee said...

Blessing and congrads to the Michelle and Jim Bob.Josie Brooklyn is an interesting name but beautiful none the less.I had a feeling the baby would be a girl.Although 1lb. 6oz. is small it is not impossible for a baby to be just fine.My mom has worked with premature babies for over 30 years and has seen many thrive.It's going to be a up hill battle but through care, love, and faith I am sure she will be fine.Many premature babies grow up to be free of any issues.

Becca said...

So sad! I really hope Baby Josie is ok

Praying For Josie said...

I am praying for a quick recovery for both Josie and Michelle but I really hope she understands that this may be the last baby and not roll the dice again. I dont want to see anything bad happen to this family.

Laura said...

Oh my! I hope eveything turns out well.

Anonymous said...

I just learned of the early arrival of the baby. I'll keep the family in my prayers, as I know how stressful it is with a premie. My niece was born 2 months early and spent a lot of time in NICU's between 2 different hospitals.

While I understand the whole "we'll take as many kids as the Lord allows",(I don't agree with this philosophy, but I'll leave that alone) I think maybe it's time for Michelle and Jim Bob to consider stopping.

Michelle is what, 42 or 43? All these pregnancies are starting to take their toll on her body. I'd hate to see the Duggars risk Michelle's health or the health of a baby in order to "be fruitful and multiply".

I would take this latest pregnancy and early birth as a sign to stop. Be thankful for the children you have now.

This is my opinion and I hope no one is offended.

Jane in California said...

This is very early, and a lot of very important development has not yet occurred. This poor little preemie has a long road ahead of her and I hope she doesn't have too many setbacks. Oh boy, I really feel for the Duggars and this littlest one - that is going to be a very tough road.

Anonymous said...

God bless that sweet little girl and her mother. Anyone know exactly how many weeks along she was?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

25 weeks

Anonymous said...

Josie Brooklyn was born at 25 weeks and, according to a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in June, babies born at 25 weeks who receive aggressive treatment through intensive care have an 82 percent chance of survival.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Television/michelle-duggar-birth-19th-child-emergency-section/story?id=9311401

CarolS461 said...

My niece's baby weighed only 2 pounds and 13 ounces. That's almost double what little Josie weighs, but my niece is just fine. She had a slow start but has turned out just fine.

I, too, hope that Jim Bob can just zip it up now. 19 kids and the last 2 pregnancies have been C-sections, and risky health issues for Michelle. I don't think he wants to be raising those kids by himself, God forbid something happen to Michelle. Let's hope 19 is more than enough!

chocolatebee said...

Michelle is what, 42 or 43? All these pregnancies are starting to take their toll on her body. I'd hate to see the Duggars risk Michelle's health or the health of a baby in order to "be fruitful and multiply".

I would take this latest pregnancy and early birth as a sign to stop. Be thankful for the children you have now.
________________________________

I was 18 when my first daughter was born at the exact gestation as baby Josie. Maternal age is not the biggest risks factor in premature births. They can happen at any time to any mother of any age. I really would hate for people to begin to attack Michelle because of her age. Having a premature baby is hard enough. The self blame a mother may feel doesn't make it any better. Everything happens for a reason. Let's just pray that Josie is fine.

Anonymous said...

Chocolatebee-

I agree that age is not necessarily the singe factor that may have caused the premature birth of Josie.

I think that what most people are getting at is that the combination of Michelle's age AND the large number of pregnancies that contributed to this unfortunate situation. I think most viewers, fans and skeptics alike, knew that Michelle as starting to enter dangerous territory.

Anonymous said...

After Mrs. Bates's two miscarriages and now Michelle's early delivery, I wonder how either of these families views these events. "Christina" mentioned something similar in another thread, and I wonder the same. In Kelly's case, do they believe God is unhappy with them because of the miscarriages? What do they all think of Michelle's recent problems? I'm just curious what this would "mean" to these families.

msrylee said...

My thoughts and prayers are with this family. I also am praying for all the medical people who are taking care of the baby, and Michelle.

Joanna said...

My heart and prayers go out to the family. Healthy for 25 weeks or not, baby Josie is "still" 25 weeks and 1 lb, 6 oz. I think she'll pull through just fine, but it will be a long road. She'll be in the hospital at least a couple of months, until her lungs are developed, she learns how to eat, and gets close to 4 lbs at least. That's when she'll be considered healthy enough to go home.

And remember when Michelle recovers, she and Jim Bob will be divided between needing to be at home with their 17 still there, several still little, and baby Josie being in the hospital in another city. I'm praying that Michelle will get to go home for Jordyn's 1st birthday in 7 days.

And while Michelle recovers, Grandma Duggar and Jana, Jill, and Jessa will be responsible for holding the fort at home. I'm praying and I'm sure that family members and friends will come and help relieve them some, especially with cooking. I can imagine alot of people will cook meals for them, which would take a hugh load off of them.

I'm sure Amy and Denna will help, and I'd persoanally be shocked if any of Michelle's many relitives didn't come in for at least a couple of days. It'll be diffcult, but they'll be alright.

chocolatebee said...

I think that what most people are getting at is that the combination of Michelle's age AND the large number of pregnancies that contributed to this unfortunate situation. I think most viewers, fans and skeptics alike, knew that Michelle as starting to enter dangerous territory.
_______________________________

I agree with you on the combination of her age and the number of pregnancies. I guess I am just sad for them because I had a feeling that premature birth was a strong possibility. I wonder, and again this my speculation, if JB and Michelle knew for a while that this was a possibility because you may have noticed that there was very little, actually hardly any, talk of baby #19.

Anonymous said...

So sad, I wish them the best! For some reason I had a feeling they were having another girl, but would face complications. They're in my prayers!

Sandra said...

Prayers and best wishes to the Duggar family, as all should especially at the Christmas season.
Having never experienced what they are going through, I can only imagine. Those of you that have traveled this road can clearly empathize with their fears.

All birth is a miracle, no matter the maternal age. There are moms in their 20's, healthy, that have early delivery, so blaming it on Michelle's age may be untrue. Only her doctor knows.
At this time however, none of that matters. All that matters is that this child become strong and healthy.
God bless this family.

Judy said...

chocolatebee,

Actually, high blood pressure during pregnancy, which it sounds like Michelle had, is actually more common as mothers get older, and I believe gall bladder problems do occur more frequently with women in later (#2 and above) pregnancies so her age sounds like it at least partially and in a round about way, contributed to the early birth.

I doubt they would have delivered the baby at 25 weeks unless they really, really thought Michelle's life was signifncatly in danger because they knew delivering at this gestational age would very much risk the baby's life.

Anon 3:34 said...

I have a family member who gave birth to twins at 26 weeks gestation, each weighing 1 pound 10 ounces. There were no warning signs, the labor started and could not be stopped.

Sadly, neither twin lived beyond a few days. (One passed away on day 3, the other on day 20).

Although I wish the best for the Duggars, I only know from my family member's experience the fragility and reality of the current situation the Duggars are in.

The family was very quiet about this pregnancy in contrast to other recent ones. I wonder if they had been given some adverse news early on in the pregnancy (?).

DuggarFan said...

We don't know why the baby came early. It could be her age or the fact that she just had a baby less than a year ago, and her body hasn't fully recovered. Or it could have to do with something we know nothing about. No matter how we feel about JB and Michelle and how many children they have, the baby is here now, and she needs our prayers.

DuggarFan said...

I forgot to add this. As much as I personally feel Michelle should slow down, we all know she won't. She'll say whatever happens is God's will. It makes me kind of sad. And why can't the duggars adopt if they want to continue adding children to their family?

Leeann said...

Best wishes to Baby Josie and the Duggar family. I love the name Josie.. It is adorable!

I hope that all will be well with her.

God bless.

Anonymous said...

While comments here have been mostly positive, I feel the need to remind people that a very little girl is struggling for her life right now. Viability is about 24 weeks, o days. While some 23 weekers, and very very very rarely 22 weekers, do make it, most do not. This child is at a high risk for dying within the next month, and possibly in later years, as a direct result of her prematurity. Shr faces multiple medical proceedures, and possible life long complecations, such as mental retardation, CP, learning problems, etc. This is NOT going to be an easy road for them, period.

I was 29 when I had my preemie. Most mothers in the NICU were in their 20's or 30's. No dr would deliver a 25 weeker unless the mother's life, or the child's, was in danger by going forward with the pg.

My son is a year and doing well. I blame myself every day for failing him. I question God everyday as to why He burdened my son with an early birth. I pray that the baby I carry makes it term and I know that that likely won't happen. Maternal guilt is long and deep in this... no one needs it heaped on them.

People told us to stop, too, after my last... but things happen. Whether or not she has another baby is her business... but no one, ever, deserves NICU hell.

Sara271 said...

I read today about Josie's premature birth and it made me get emotional because my family went through a similar experience. My daughter had premature quadruplets at 29 weeks and 4 days. My daughter's pregnancy was high-risk so we were first scared for her, and then scared for our grandchildren. This happened 5 years ago and the kids are doing beautifully, but when I hear about someone else experiencing a premature birth, my heart goes out to them and I get teary, remembering those scary times. There is so much that can go wrong, and the experience changes anyone who goes through it.

My daughter's babies all weighed 2 pounds, some a few ounces more than others. They were sent home on oxygen, apnea monitors, nebulizers, and pulse oximeters. One little boy had a feeding tube surgically placed. My daughter was running a mini-ICU in her home.

There is a documentary film about the reality of this experience called "Little Man". I found the film very moving and very real. The baby boy in the film was born at 25 weeks (like Josie Duggar) and he only weighed 1 pound. http://www.littlemanthemovie.com/home.html

I have faith that the Duggars will deal with this event with love and grace. They have a large support system. My daughter and her husband took care of their children together and I helped a great deal. I am still proud of the fact that my daughter only trusted me to care for her babies when she needed to be gone for a while. It's amazing what a person can get used to. "If God brings you to it, He will bring you through it."

I will be praying for the Duggar family. Because of my own family's experience, I believe in the power of God, and I believe in miracles.

Jessica said...

I'm praying for the family and Josie continues to grow and not have any complications.
Maybe this birth shows them that this should be the last...

Congrats Duggars

Anonymous said...

I pray that the baby I carry makes it term and I know that that likely won't happen.

Do you know why you delivered early? I'm not trying to be nosy, but I wanted to mention something you might want to mention to your dr., and that is progesterone shots. I had a 29 week preemie, he survived, now 17 years old and over 6 feet tall and 185 pounds, a son at 21 weeks, just weighed a pound, did not survive, and a 6 year old, she was born at 40 weeks and weighed 9 pounds.

The difference for me was taking the progesterone shots. I did not have any preterm labor with those shots. I just thought the info might help if pre-term labor was your situation.

Closerfan said...

Best wishes to Michelle, Jim Bob and the rest of the Duggar family.

pray said...

I posted earlier, but i am back to say im still thinking of michelle and baby josie.

I am also thinking of the younger children who just know that mommy is away in a hospital.

Should the baby not make it (and i really hope she lives and thrives) I hope the duggars just stop filming.Period.

There should not be any episodes during or after of this development.

I was so angered that there was a camera man crouched at the head of the grandfathers casket to caputre mourners faces as they said good bye.

I cant think what they- Jim bob and Michelle were thinking to allow private parts of the services to be filmed

jj said...

doubt they would have delivered the baby at 25 weeks unless they really, really thought Michelle's life was signifncatly in danger because they knew delivering at this gestational age would very much risk the baby's life.


I agree with you. They would have wanted that baby to stay inside of her for as long as possible.
It must have been a life or death decsion to take the baby out.
Sheesh, that's just so scary.

SaNdY said...

I am praying for baby Josie, Michelle, Jim Bob and the rest of the family, God bless them all....

Cait said...

I am praying for them. My son was also a preemie, though not a micro preemie like Josie. The NICU is a hard thing to deal with for everyone.

Anonymous said...

I'm praying for that little baby and Michelle. Any mother can have a preemie, I think it's awful that some people are suggesting it is a "sign" that she should stop having babies. I just hope they stop the show and focus on the new baby and their other kids. I feel so sorry for the older ones who are hours from their parents. This must be so traumatic for all of them.

pogo said...

Let's pray for the baby. She is not out of the woods yet. Let's hope nothing else comes up and she grows/develops normally. 25 weeks @ 1 lb is very small, lots of things can happen. Let's hope they don't. This baby is gonna be in the hospital for a very long time. From shows I've watched, they usually release them when they hit 5lbs, sometimes 3lbs if they are healthy and no complications occur. This baby is gonna need a lot of therapy to get caught up .

Anonymous said...

As the mom of a baby close in size and gestational age to Baby Josie who did not survive, it has always bothered me about the show that the parents just seemed to take for granted that they could keep pushing the limits of reproduction and just keep expecting healthy babies, that because they pray and are Christian it was somehow going to be OK. But I never in a million years would have wished this hell upon them. Even if by some stroke of luck or God's grace, the baby lives without any long term complications, Josie starting her life with months of unpleasant medical procedures. There is no "speedy recovery" for a baby born at 25 weeks, weighing less than 1 1/2 pounds, no matter how amazing the doctors and nurses caring for her.

I think I read she had a c-section because she had pre-eclampsia, or pregnancy induced hypertension -- a risk factor for this condition being a maternal age of over 40. I don't think her age made her go into pre-term labor, as one commenter pointed out, but it is possible it contributed to the need to deliver the baby so early.

What I fear is that this will somehow be used as some sort of Sunday School lesson for us all -- as in God is using this experience to appreciate life more, or to grow closer to Him, or some such nonsense. I totally agree with the commenter who thinks that the cameras should stay off during such a time. Michelle has enough going on without being expected to demonstrate her faith to us at this time.

Joanna said...

They are saying on the Discovery Health board that the older girls were in El Savador. They said that was in one of the articles or attached to one of the articles. I haven't found that yet.

Anonymous said...

More on Michelle and Josie Duggar
12/11/2009
Statement from the Hospital where Michelle delivered Josie Brooklyn:

"During Mrs. Duggar’s admission to University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences to evaluate pain related to gall bladder disease, her workup revealed signs and symptoms consistent with a condition known as preeclampsia.

Preeclampsia is a pregnancy-related disease that affects 5 to 8% of all pregnancies and is characterized by high blood pressure and the presence of protein in the urine.

Thursday evening, December 10, the obstetrical and neonatal teams reached the collaborative decision that Mrs. Duggar needed an emergency c-section to ensure the blood pressure problem would not be detrimental to her or the baby.

Josie Brooklyn was born at 6:27 pm, weighed 1 lb., 6 oz, measured 30 cm long and is currently in stable condition. Michelle is recovering well from surgery.

UAMS is the best place for Mom and baby, as we have a state of the art NICU care facility with some of the top neonatal doctors in the world.” -- Paul Wendel, M.D., Director, UAMS Division of Maternal-Fetal Medicine.

Anonymous said...

The baby is in my prayers.

I will be astounded if they continue to have more children. Michelle is 42, she's delivered 19 children, and has had 4 c-sections. And this last baby is in critical condition.

Anonymous said...

I'm praying for little Josie and her wonderful parents. The NICU experience is very difficult for the families - exhausting; emotional; a roller coaster; the parents are away from their other children. I'm sorry that they all have to face a long NICU stay.

P.S. I know this isn't very important, but I was hoping they would name the baby Julie. Mr. Duggar likes the name Julie and he was outvoted with Jordyn so I was hoping he would have his way this time. I wonder how they came up with Josie. I think they already have a Josiah.

Kriss said...

I am very sad for Michelle that this happened. I hope Josie grows to be happy healthy child!
In regards to Michelle's health though, if they don't believe in birth control do they believe in sterilization? Would having her tubes tied or JimBob getting a vasectomy be an option? I know that's personal and only they can decide whats best but I was curious how their spiritual side/religious beliefs felt about that. Any thoughts?

Jackelynn said...

As insensitive as I know this is going to sound, this was bound to happen eventually, I'm just very surprised none of the children have had an problems up until now. She's getting older and this is her 19th child.

I do understand that they believe that god will stop "giving" them children if he feels it's time to stop, but logic says if you keep doing the deed babies will keep coming. It simply isn't safe anymore to keep having children and it worries me.

I really hope that if god forbid something even more tragic happens they don't film it, and I would really hope they aren't already planning a special on Josie's birth.

roddma said...

I am pulling for the baby and Michelle. The reason people are suggesting they stop is because of concern.

I had a bad feeling about this one from the start. No matter the age teens 20's, or 30's I understand women are told to stop after a micro premie. My cousin had high blood pressure and in her 20's . I know others who had problems in there 20's and those who have healthy babies around 40ish.

When you have as many as Michelle and Kelly Bates regardless of age, the risk of something happening increases. I cant see playing russian roulette whether whether you are religious or not.

Anonymous said...

Here's something I'm struggling to understand... the Duggars don't believe in abortion. In fact, they strongly disagree with it, and JB made this a big part of his political career. If they don't believe it's okay to abort a baby to save a mom's life, I'm surprised they would do this emergency surgery to save her life. Although, I guess if the mother dies then the baby dies as well, but does anyone understand what I'm saying? I think it's easy to say you don't believe in something until it happens to you. Nobody really knows what decision they will make until that moment.

kitty said...

Do you really think they won't cover this on their show? They had an episode about Grandpa Duggar's death, so why would this be off limits? They probably WANT to show the world how a family like theirs copes with such a difficult situation - that's the whole premise for their show, really.

CappuccinoLife said...

'In Kelly's case, do they believe God is unhappy with them because of the miscarriages? What do they all think of Michelle's recent problems? '


I am sure they do not believe that, because they do not believe that children are a reward for "good behavior", but an *undeserved* blessing from God.

The Duggars (and the Bateses) believe life begins at conception. Miscarriages therfore are deaths to mourn like they would mourn the death of a sibling or a grandparent.

Given their faith and previous statements they've made, they are probably thanking God that Michelle had gallbladder problems which landed her in the hospital, so that her health and the baby's health was monitored and the severe pre-e could be diagnosed quickly and action taken to save Michelle and the baby.

Judy said...

I really don't think they will stop having children. I think they truly do believe that God makes the decision -- they don't see it as a biological process that they can control. But, Michelle is 43. She's not going to have to many more just based on her age -- maybe one or two? I wouldn't be surprised if she were pregnant again by spring.

Anonymous said...

Praying for the Duggars!! They have an amazing faith in the Lord, which will guide them right now in the best and worst situations. God doesn't do anything unplanned.

Anonymous said...

The family would most likely not go for any type of sterilization because they they are taking control of what they believe God should have total control over.

Enough with the Multiples said...

RE: In regards to Michelle's health though, if they don't believe in birth control do they believe in sterilization? Would having her tubes tied or JimBob getting a vasectomy be an option? I know that's personal and only they can decide whats best but I was curious how their spiritual side/religious beliefs felt about that. Any thoughts?
______________________
Good question...I have wondered this too. They have always claimed to be against birth control because of the miscarriage Michelle had which they believed was casued by birth control pills she was taking. Yet, surgical sterilization as well as condoms would pose no risk to the baby if one of those methods failed so I don't see why they are against any of those options. At this stage in their life and with the extensive care Josie will require, I think it would be the best choice for Michelle to have her tubes tied while she is in the hospital or Jim Bob to make an appointment for a vasectomy.

Anonymous said...

If you look at the space between pregnancies, you'll see there isn't much recovery time. 88, 90(twins), 91, 92, 93, 95, 96, 97, 98(twins), 00, 01, 02, 04, 05, 07, 08, and now. If my math is correct, Michelle has been pregnant for 12 years.

Yes, preeclampsia can happen to anyone, be it a 20 yr old or a 40 year old. So can premature birth, and C-sections. Michelle's last 3 pregnancies have been C-section and now little Josie is fighting in the NICU. Maybe it's time for Michelle and Jim Bob to think long and hard before announcing another pregnancy.

We all know how Michelle passes the babies off to their "buddy" after a while. Josie, should she survive (and I hope she does), will need all sorts of care for quite a while. I hope Michelle will be the primary care giver, and not the "buddy".

Anonymous said...

They have a Joseph as well as a Josiah. What matters most is the health of the mom and baby. I hope they make it and that the baby improves though unfortunately this was a possibility with so many pregnancies as well. Prayers..

Erin said...

Ideas for shows while Mom and Josie are hospitalized:

-Each kid getting a show specifically about them

Several of them (esp. the quiet ones like John David and Jill) we don't know very well. What are their personalities like? Note that personality means things like level of extroversion, what their specific strengths are and what they with they were better at. NOT what is their favorite color.


-Kids making "get well" cards or other stuff to send to the hospital

-Older kids teaching school to the younger ones. Is this difficult for them? Does it make them want to be teachers?

-What the kids do with no parents around. Do they still go play broomball each week? Will the kids split up among different houses of family members?


Just wanted to throw some ideas out there since I wouldn't want the camera in Michelle's face at this time but I do like the show. Anyone else?

Anonymous said...

I like many of the posters here have my own opinions on Michelle's decision.

However, I think that we need to suspend our opinions for the time being and focus on prayer for their newest little one. 1lb 6oz is tiny and she'll need all the support she can get.

I may not always agree with what Michelle and Jim Bob do and say, but right now the health and well being of their child is paramount in my mind.

Anonymous said...

We may not understand the plan, but the Good Lord has a plan. Have faith that it is the right one for everyone.

My prayers go out to all the Duggars, and I hope little Josie gets to come home in a few months. (Figure around her original due date, March or so)

Anne said...

I hope Michelle is okay. I worry more about her because something has to be really serious with the mom for a dr to consider delivering at 25 weeks. It is not just high blood pressure. I find it interesting that the statement says Michelle suffered from a RARE problem pre-eclampsia that 5-8% of women get. I do not consider 1 out of 15-20 a rare condition. I just hope Michelle comes out healthy and gets some real recovery time. She has 17 kids at home who need a healthy mom.

pumpkin said...

Regarding male sterilization, if the Duggar family follows the standard Quiverfull dogma, they will not do that. The Quiverfullers believe that it is harmful to a man's body, which is totally against what WebMD says, by the way.

Anyway, here is the link to what the Quiverfull folks think about it: http://www.quiverfull.com/birth_control/dangersofvasectomy.html

Be Thou My Vision said...

"I am sure they do not believe that, because they do not believe that children are a reward for "good behavior", but an *undeserved* blessing from God."
___________________________________________________________________________

Then why do they always quote that verse about the fruit of the womb being His reward? I think it is from Psalms.

CappuccinoLife said...

I hope it's OK to post this. I'm not wanting to start an abortion debate, but I do want to clarify the question about abortion, since it was asked about the Duggars and mildly implies hypocrisy in thier position. :/

" If they don't believe it's okay to abort a baby to save a mom's life, I'm surprised they would do this emergency surgery to save her life."

Why? This wasn't an abortion in the sense you're talking about. The technical term may be the same, but so is the term for a miscarriage. In the kind of abortion the Duggar's are opposed to, even for serious medical issues for mom, the intended end result for the baby (or fetus, if that sounds better) is *not* to save it's life.

The surgery Michelle had was a desperate measure taken in an effort to save *both* lives. It wasn't only Michelle in danger continuing the pregnancy, but the baby was in danger as well. I guess they decided the baby had a better chance outside the womb, and if they decided that at 25 weeks, that means it's chances in the womb were pretty darn low. If she simply had it for *her* health and the child was secondary, she wouldn't have gone for a crash section which is major surgery and risky in and of itself.

Just me said...

"if she simply had it for *her* health and the child was secondary, she wouldn't have gone for a crash section which is major surgery and risky in and of itself."

___________________________________________________________________________I thought the only way to save the mother was by delivering the baby?

Also, I wonder if Michelle had undiagnosed HELLP syndrome?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HELLP_syndrome

octavia said...

My heart goes out to the Duggar family. That tiny baby is fighting for her life, despite the reports that she is "stable". I had a NICU baby, and "stable" essentially means "no change" or "we're really not sure how this is going to pan out, only time will tell".

I truly hope TLC isn't thinking of the terrific ratings they're going to rake in with this latest development. TLC seems to thrive on filming devastating circumstances in peoples' lives, simply for the ratings and the money it brings.

Anonymous said...

I'm not being "snarky", but if the baby does not survive, will the Duggars still believe that this was part of God's plan? Does that mean they won't mourn ?

Anger is one of the stages of grief after a profound loss.

And again, I am not trying to be rude or start an argument, I just don't see how anyone could be at peace with a child dying, which is a very real possibility here.

Judy said...

CappacinoLife:

I believe I crash csection and an emergency csection are two different things. An emergency csection means unplanned, pretty much, a quick delivery. In a crash, it's dire, ie: done in a minute or two, for example if a baby's heartbeat is so far down and isn't coming back up that she is in imminent danger of dying. I don't think they said Michelle had a crash, but an emergency.

Secondly, I don't think you can assume that Michelle opted for the section because "If she simply had it for *her* health and the child was secondary, she wouldn't have gone for a crash section which is major surgery and risky in and of itself." What that sounds like you're saying is that Michelle would have willingly died if the decision was only made with HER best interests in mind. I don't know if we can really know why she agreed to delivering her child at 25 weeks, and we won't know unless/until she decides to talk about it.

CappuccinoLife said...

"Then why do they always quote that verse about the fruit of the womb being His reward? I think it is from Psalms."

Because taken in the whole context of Christianity (at least, the Duggar's interpretation of the faith), God's blessings and rewards are not remuneration for a certain level of holiness. If they were, very few of us would enjoy any blessings at all. David, who wrote many of the Psalms, certainly wouldn't have. He had serious issues with "holy living" throughout his life.

I have a feeling that this goes back to the Duggar's over-arching Christian beliefs. If one begins with the assumption that salvation itself is not a state that can be earned in any way, but a freely given and undeserved gift, it's not odd for that same idea to show up in the rest of one's belief system.

In the context of the Duggar's beliefs, to say "God has blessed me so much!" is not equivalent to "I'm so holy and deserving".

CappuccinoLife said...

"I don't want to get into a flame war either, but just had to respond. Delivery for the relief of pre-eclampsia is NOT to save both lives. It is to save the life of the mother. "

I am pretty sure I saw in the hospital's press statement that they felt the *baby* was in significant danger in the womb because of Michelle's health problems as well. Just looked again, yep, that was indeed one of the considerations.

But this was still not an abortion in the meaning of the word that was used. They are making *every effort* to save the baby's life as well, which is perfectly consistent with the Duggar's pro-life views.

It is unfair to judge them as hypocritical on abortion when they are clearly doing whatever possible to save their baby's life and took the baby's health into consideration as well when the decision was made. It is not ideal to deliver at 25 weeks and baby Josie is in a fragile position (as she was in utero) but both having a chance to live is better by far than both dying.

Anonymous said...

Guys, I have never felt good about this pregnancy. Jim Bob said repeatedly that "With God's grace, Michelle will carry this baby to term." I have never heard him say that about any of their other children. Were they warned? Gallstones and preeclampsia aside, is her body just giving out on childbirth? I believe this is her 4th c-section, if I'm not mistaken. I was told by my dr. that he gets "nervous" after 3 sections. I have grown to care very deeply about this family, but I think Jim Bob needs to not just "leave it up to Michelle" anymore. I don't know if she is trying to atone for the miscarriage while she was taking birth control, but her attitude completely changed after this event occured, causing her to swing to the other extreme: have all the babies possible. Jim Bob needs to insist that this high-risk behavior has to stop. I too am a believer, but "trusting God" doesn't mean having your uterus repeatedly being sliced open and expecting it to have enough structural integrity to keep housing developing babies.

Anonymous said...

I suspect that the parents knew that something was awry with Josie. They have been too quiet about this pregnancy, as many of us have been noting for a couple of months. They did not ever change the opening with all the pictures of the kids to include "And we're expecting number 19" which they did with the last few kids who were born on the air.

I think they may have known the pregnancy was at risk, or the child has some sort of medical issues (or maybe both). But I have always thought the silence about this pregnancy was particularly strange, given how this family loves to talk about pregnancy.

Let's hope common sense reigns supreme, and Michelle will have NO additional pregnancies. God gave us a brain for a reason.

Anonymous said...

Untreated preeclampsia is associated with stillbirth - look it up - so it is really to save both. Kat, please don't spread such misinformation. Look up eclampsia. I've seen such stillbirths - I work in L&D - and I don't want anyone to think they should stay pregnant to save the baby. It could kill both.

Anonymous said...

As a Christian, who has gone through the devestating loss of not only my own child(at birth) but as as a child, my brother(at 5 years old)maybe I can address your concerns. No, the death of a child is not seen as a punishment from God(although I admit to feeling that way for a time when my heart was ripped to shreads) but as a circumstance which gives us the chance to lean on Him and grow closer to Him. Yes, it is part of God's plan, but NO it does not mean we don't mourn. It means we do not mourn without the hope and promise that comes through knowing God is in charge of our lives and will never leave us alone. He will carry us through all the hard times of out life. Having the peace of knowing that I will see my daughter again and she will be resurrected with my whole family is what has gotten me through these last 5 years since her death.

I hope and pray that Josie will be fine as the heartache that accompanies seeing your own child die is something I would not wish on anyone. But I know, from what I know of the Duggars, that if it she were to die, they would rely on their faith in Jesus Christ to help them through their pain.

Anonymous said...

I saw the show where the grandfather died and, yes, they mourn. I was very pleased with the show because mychildren have great grandparents living and the Duggars talking to their younger kids gave me idea on what to say to mine. I saw JB crying and hugging his daughter after she made a loving video tribute to her grandfather. T
As for BC, generally, steralization is not considered a licit form of family planning for those that are quiverful. Indirect forms (such as removing a canercous uterus to save the woman's life) are b/c the primary purpose is not to prevent birth but save their life.
I know the Duggars use mordern medicine- remember the wisdome tooth episode? So I doubt they leave medical things but to God but prayerful use the tools God gave us to help them.

luvmybabies said...

Kat said, "Delivery for the relief of pre-eclampsia is NOT to save both lives. It is to save the life of the mother."

This is not completely accurate. If a mother has a stroke or dies, and the baby is still inside the mother, the baby may die also, unless an emergency c-section can be performed fast enough. In addition, pre-eclampsia in a pregnant woman can cause placental abruption, which also can very easily cause the death of both mother and baby.

Pre-eclampsia is most definitely dangerous to both mother and baby.

luvmybabies said...

Anonymous said, "I'm not being "snarky", but if the baby does not survive, will the Duggars still believe that this was part of God's plan? Does that mean they won't mourn ?

Anger is one of the stages of grief after a profound loss.

And again, I am not trying to be rude or start an argument, I just don't see how anyone could be at peace with a child dying, which is a very real possibility here."

Yes, they would believe it was in God's hands and His will was that she wasn't to survive. Yes, they would be mourn and be perhaps angry. Yes, they would also eventually be at peace with the passing of their child, although the pain and sorrow would always be there. Being at peace with something doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't hurt.

Snap! said...

I hope the baby does well. The Duggars have a long road ahead of them. I think the issue with Michelle having more children as she gets older is that if something happened to her- Jim Bob would have many children and no mother - as well as an infant that will possibly have special needs. Enjoy the family you have and stop taking chances with Michelle's health.

Anonymous said...

Duggar fan here, but don't agree with everything they do and say.....

I for one hope they put the show on haitus until Josie is home. I can't imagine visiting a NICU while taking care of 18 kids (with babies/toddlers) and filming a show all the while. I just don't see how it can be beneficial to anyone in the family.

So Duggars, please, take a break, the world will still be here when your little girl is home.

And just to add my .02 on Josie, as just a mom (non-medical professional) my experience has been....it is just way too early to tell what her long term prognosis will be. She could have severe, moderate, mild or no long term effects. There are just so many things that could go wrong or right over the next few months.

God Bless Duggars

kathie

Anonymous said...

It would be a given that the baby's health and life is in danger if the mother's life is. If the mother dies so does the baby.

Cyn said...

Judy said...

I really don't think they will stop having children. I think they truly do believe that God makes the decision -- they don't see it as a biological process that they can control. But, Michelle is 43. She's not going to have to many more just based on her age -- maybe one or two? I wouldn't be surprised if she were pregnant again by spring.

12/12/2009 6:24 AM

**********************

Slight correction they know you CAN control it, they simply don't think they SHOULD control it. They have given this part (and many more parts) of their life to GOD and put HIM in ultimate control.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone think this baby is really ok?? and Michelle?? There have been no real updates or photos.I know it's still early yet ,it just doesn't seem like them at all.
My prayers are definitely with them!I hope we hear good news soon,the best that can be at this still yet early stage.

Anonymous said...

****"In the context of the Duggar's beliefs, to say "God has blessed me so much!" is not equivalent to "I'm so holy and deserving"."******

Yes, I understand that. But the Bible clearly says that children are a reward and that is one of the verses the Duggars use to justify constant childbirth.

I'm not that much opposed to it, except to when it gets to the point when people couldn't care for and nurture the children they ALREADY have.

But I guess I am saying all that to say this: The Duggars do believe that children are a reward, and whether deserved or undeserved, I hadn't really given much thought to.

My basic world view is that we all deserve nothing, so anything we get is all gravy.

Hannah W. said...

Anonymous said...

It would be a given that the baby's health and life is in danger if the mother's life is. If the mother dies so does the baby.

----------------------------

Not necessarily. There's been many times where a mother passes away giving birth but the baby lives.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I pray the baby and mom get well soon and that there are no further complications.

roddma said...

Not to start debate or anything, but someone brought about the Duggars and their prolife stance. A majority of pro-life (like myself) are against is 'abortion for convinience', meaning two consenting parties not using bc,.

I agree cappucino it is unfair to judge the Duggars abortion stance during this critical time. It is irrelevant to the discussion. The doctors are doing everything they can to save little Josie. If it came down to saving lives,,I hope JB and michelle make the right decision decision for Michelle's sake and the other children the other kids. BTW the Duggars claim not to be Quiverfull.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The comments about being too old to be a parent is speculation. Almost 20 years ago when I was almost 41 my daughter was born. I was old enough to be her grandmother but God bless us with an opportunity to adopt her. Just six months later my sister who is 5years younger became a grandmother. Her daughter was the same age as my daughter's birthmom, age 17. I am now 60 and am doing very well and am there for my 19 year old daughter, however my sister's granddaughter does not have a mother to see her through high school. She died of breast cancer at age 32 leaving behind four children, the youngest a few months short of being age two. No one knows when it is there time to leave the earth and to say that someone in their 40's is too old to be a parent because they will be 60 when their child graduates does not mean they will be around less time than someone like my niece who gave birth at age 17.

im.in.PR@gmail.com said...

"The Duggar children will have 18 brothers and sisters... I don't think they will ever feel lonely."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If they turn out like Michelle's family of origin, they won't all stay close.

Anonymous said...

No one knows when it is there time to leave the earth and to say that someone in their 40's is too old to be a parent because they will be 60 when their child graduates does not mean they will be around less time than someone like my niece who gave birth at age 17.

Death can strike at any time. But it is more likely for one to die in their elder years. And while we don't know when we will die, it is certain that the older parent has far less energy than the younger. I say that as an older parent who gave birth at 42. (I had a child at a younger age to compare that to.)

medstudent said...

I can't say I'm surprised. They have been risking fate with the past few births.

That being said. I definitely think the duggars knew something was wrong early on. Its standard to do a series of tests on women over 35 for things such as downs syndrome around 11 weeks.

Also, regarding which life is more important... In childbirth its almost always the mother especially if the baby is premature. The rule of thumb for doctors is which one has the better chance of surviving.

That aside, I really do hope the baby makes it. She shouldn't die because of the stupidity and selfishness of her parents.

Kat said...

Ok, clarification time. I am well aware that pre-eclampsia is dangerous to both mother and child, and also that medical staff will do everything they can to save both. What I was suggesting as a possibility (one of many) is that *perhaps* Michelle had earlier milder warnings (such as elevated blood pressure, or the "gallbladder" pain) and her doctor was attempting to keep the condition from advancing into pre-eclampsia until the baby reached viability, to avoid the need to deliver a child that had no chance of survival.

Which leads me into my next point - if Michelle had developed pre-emclampsia at 20 weeks, they would have gone ahead and delivered the baby, even knowing it would not be viable, because once you have pre-eclampsia, the ONLY way to resolve it is to deliver. While pre-eclampsia is threatening to both the baby and the mother, the medical condition being treated is the mother's.

However, I'm not suggesting that Michelle and JB made any decisions contrary to medical advice at any time.

VillageMom said...

I don't understand the idea that "later in life" parents are making a bad choice. Would you rather never have been born??

My thoughts and prayers are with the Duggar family.

tngal said...

I am an expert on preemies, as my son was born at 22 weeks and weighed 1 pound 3 ounces. He also endured 20 surgeries. Each preemie's outcome is different and he is 3 and we do not know the whole extent yet. My son has several handicaps, but he is very much loved and considered a miracle by even docs. He has already accomplished many things that he was not supposed to do. Only God knows all of our futures!

Believe me this family needs prayers right now--that is the main thing. It is very scary not knowing if your baby will live or not let alone long term problems. I saw on the TLC site share your preemie stories....I hope this is not fishing for a new show idea. I am sick of people exploiting their kids on this station.

I hope the Duggars keep this baby's NICU stay private.

Kat said...

roddma wrote:

"BTW the Duggars claim not to be Quiverfull."

Jim Bob stated himself on one of their "Today" show (I think it was the Today show) appearances that they were part of that movement. This was a year-ish ago, maybe more. I am sure there is a video clip out there somewhere.

BigFan said...

Hmmmmm, Does anyone know why the Duggars don't claim to be Quiverfull?
It seems that they perfectly fit the bill, so I wonder what the reason is that they don't call themselves that? Is there something they don't agree with theologically? Interesting...

Anonymous said...

Hannah W. said...
Anonymous said...

It would be a given that the baby's health and life is in danger if the mother's life is. If the mother dies so does the baby.

----------------------------

Not necessarily. There's been many times where a mother passes away giving birth but the baby lives.


Yes, but that's because the mother dies shortly after the birth, or the mother is in a hospital while giving birth, a complication suddenly arises and a c-section is able to be done right then and there. If a mother has a stroke or placental abruption while not already in a hospital, she very likely will die and the baby too.

A mother doesn't die while giving birth and have the baby live unless a c-section is done right at the moment.

Kelly said...

I am surprised that no one seems to be addressing the fact that Michelle did not have maternity coverage with her health insurance. (At least that is what Jim Bob said on Larry King Live when Joy Behar asked about their health insurance.) I have a hard time seeing how this family could be debt free without some help (charity or government) after this delivery. I would guess that the helicopter ride would not be covered by insurance, and I can't think that is cheap. Anyone have insight into this issue? I find it surprising that someone would not have maternity coverage when they are open to getting pregnant and are over 40 years old (when complications are more likely).

Lynn said...

It's hard to find updates on how baby Josie is doing from day to day, hour to hour. Perhaps the Duggars consider this private information, and I don't blame them. They don't owe the curious any explanations. I had six C-sections myself. I tried to get the docs to put in a zipper but they didn't. Six was enough. I'm a grandmother of five now. God bless baby Josie and the Duggar family!

Lydia said...

BigFan said...

Hmmmmm, Does anyone know why the Duggars don't claim to be Quiverfull?
It seems that they perfectly fit the bill, so I wonder what the reason is that they don't call themselves that? Is there something they don't agree with theologically? Interesting...


Theologically, the Quiverfull movement is defined by the fact that it does not having a theological center, if that makes sense.

Many different varieties of Christians and even some non-Christians self identify as QF, but that might be the only belief they hold in common.

From what I have read and from what I have heard the Duggars say, they use the same OT arguments for unrestrained childbearing as most QF's do. They just do not self identify with the movement, such as it were.

NYMom said...

Anonymous said, "I'm not being "snarky", but if the baby does not survive, will the Duggars still believe that this was part of God's plan? Does that mean they won't mourn ?

I just don't see how anyone could be at peace with a child dying, which is a very real possibility here."

My MIL lost two of her six children at young ages because of birth defects. One child was only a few days old; the other was 14 and severely disabled. She is a devout Catholic and believed that what happened was God's plan and her job was to follow that plan no matter what. She did mourn her children--how could she not? But she still believed that her life, and her children's lives, were in God's hands. And she did go on to have two more children--one of whom is my husband--in her early
40s.

Boysmom said...

Kelly, I didn't realize she doesnt' have maternity coverage. However, in such a situation, the baby is covered after birth. That has nothing to do with maternity. And often, c-sections are covered, just not "maternity,", ie, a regular vaginal birth. I don't know their policy of course, but maternity coverage has nothing to do with Josie's NICU stay, so they're only on the hook potentially for Michelle's delivery costs, possibly for the hospital stay before, but I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

The fact that the government (and by association, all of us) will be picking up the tab for Josie's million dollar NICU stay negates any of Jim Bob's comments that the family does not take any "government assistance".

I don't blame them in this case, since the money is there for just this purpose. Otherwise, the family would be bankrupt. But it is hypocritical for the Duggars to act all "holier than thou" that they are debt free and take no handouts, when this gigantic bill will be covered by taxpayers through Medicaid.

People can always claim that they don't need help----until they do. So people should also never say never. It almost always comes back to bite them!

Anonymous said...

Kelly Said:

I am surprised that no one seems to be addressing the fact that Michelle did not have maternity coverage with her health insurance.
____________________________


Just out of curiosity, how much each would a vaginal delivery, c-section and a day of NICU cost in the states?

BigFan said...

"But it is hypocritical for the Duggars to act all "holier than thou" that they are debt free and take no handouts, when this gigantic bill will be covered by taxpayers through Medicaid."

****************

Did I miss something? How do we know that they are accepting any help?

And thanks, Lydia, for your QF explanation. It does make sense. :)

Somebody's Nana said...

@anonymous: The fact that the government (and by association, all of us) will be picking up the tab for Josie's million dollar NICU stay negates any of Jim Bob's comments that the family does not take any "government assistance".

You are making major assumptions in this statement. First of all, the Duggars DO have insurance, and Josie is covered as a dependent immediately at birth. Secondly, many people do not have maternity coverage. Contrary to popular belief, it is not included in all insurance packages. The people I know who do not have maternity insurance, or who have large co-pays "plan" ahead and put money aside for the delivery. Sometimes they make payments afterward, but always they pay their bill. Thirdly, the helicopter bill may/may not be covered. Based on the past history of the Duggars, I would expect them to pay the bill.

If their friends help them, what does it matter to you? It's not taxpayer money. As for reciprocating, I'm sure the Duggars have helped more people than any of us will ever know because they do not believe in telling others about it. (the right hand should not know what the left hand is doing, etc.)

It doesn't make sense to make assumptions that are based on other people - look at the Duggars and take them at their word until they are proven wrong. So far, I've only seen rumors and innuendo, never any proof of any wrong-doing or saying one thing and doing another.

Kelly said...

I would guess that the NICU stay is covered by their insurance, although they will probably hit the cap on the policy. Many insurance companies cap at $1 million. If they hit the lifetime cap, the company won't pay for any claims for the baby after that.

I would guess that Michelle's air transport and hospital stay would not be covered. The high blood pressure and probably gallbladder issues are related to pregnancy, and the insurance company would probably deny the claims.

The delivery is usually on the mother's bill. The baby's bill would include the NICU.

I am not sure about costs in Arkansas, but the air transport is probably at least $10K and the c-section is probably at least another $10K.

The NICU probably costs at least $1K per day. Given how little this baby is, the cost could be more like $3K per day or more. They probably have lots of different specialists working with the baby.

Anonymous said...

I'm sure the Duggars know enough people to be able to raise money to pay for the baby's care. Maybe TLC will help with some of it. And maybe they'll be nice enough not to do it in exchange for filming what doesn't need to be filmed.

Somebody's Nana said...

Anonymous said...
I'm sure the Duggars know enough people to be able to raise money to pay for the baby's care. Maybe TLC will help with some of it. And maybe they'll be nice enough not to do it in exchange for filming what doesn't need to be filmed.


ROFLOL at your last line -- you ARE an optimist, aren't you! :)

Anonymous said...

I haven't seen any media updates, which worries me, but I hope it means Josie has remained stable. Perhaps it's because they want some private time, which I would highly respect. I have already posted this, but I wish Michelle the easiest recovery possible and the best for the baby.

It makes me so sad to read the "I told you comments" on other sites. Obviously many don't agree with them continuing to have so many children, but the Duggars need prayers right now, not negativity.

If Michelle gets pregnant again in the future, which is their choice, I just hope they wait longer. Little Jordyn is on my mind right now, who's so young to have to be without her mommy.

God bless!

Anonymous said...

Medicaid?!?! Are you serious? First off, they have insurance, as has been stated and Josie is covered. Most insurances that do not cover maternity, cover complications of pregnancy (like pre-e)so it is likely that even Michelle's stay was covered. And even if they didn't have insurance, I can't imagine with the money we assume they are making from TLC they would even qualify anyways. They are not low income.

mamaofnearly8

PR in PA said...

Anonymous said...
The fact that the government (and by association, all of us) will be picking up the tab for Josie's million dollar NICU stay negates any of Jim Bob's comments that the family does not take any "government assistance".

I don't blame them in this case, since the money is there for just this purpose. Otherwise, the family would be bankrupt. But it is hypocritical for the Duggars to act all "holier than thou" that they are debt free and take no handouts, when this gigantic bill will be covered by taxpayers through Medicaid.

People can always claim that they don't need help----until they do. So people should also never say never. It almost always comes back to bite them!
=========================

How do you know that?? Are you privy to information we're not? If not then I don't think you should be making statements like this. I take the Duggars at their word when they say they don't receive any gov't assistance. Until they're proven wrong you should too. I'm sure they have money saved..they're frugal people, are involved in different businesses and have made additional money from their book and the tv show. They also have alot of friends and family who I'm sure would help them out.

imaamy said...

I'd be very surprised if the Duggars friends (with large families of their own) could raise millions of dollars.

Anonymous said...

I don't care how devout in faith someone is, the death of an infant changes the parent(s) forever.

Until you've lived it, you really don't know how it is. It's not something you "get over" or are "at peace with". You live it everyday for the rest of your life. It's like an open wound that never heals.

luvmybabies said...

medstudent said "That aside, I really do hope the baby makes it. She shouldn't die because of the stupidity and selfishness of her parents."

Hmm, this makes no sense...I'm assuming you mean her parents are stupid and selfish for bringing her into the world even though there are 18 of her siblings, and that her mother is 42 years old, and should know better than to have another baby.

So you're saying it would have been better for Josie to not be born at all than to have a chance at life - and that her parents are stupid and selfish to have given her life? This logic holds no water.

luvmybabies said...

The Duggars are not on Medicaid - please. They do have insurance, which means the baby's NICU stay will be covered and the Duggars will end up paying the deductible and probably 20%. It will be a lot, for sure, but probably nothing they can't handle. I would be very surprised if they reached any caps either. My neice had premature *twins* that were in the NICU for three months and their cap wasn't reached.

Not having maternity benefits means they will pay around $10k for the c-section - again not fun, but they know the births are coming and have $$ set aside for them. Also, most hospitals, if you are paying cash instead of insurance, will discount the price of the birth somewhat.

Judy said...

Anonymous:
Why do you assume thte baby is on Medicaid? My impression of this family is that they are completely self supporting. I think the Duggars are quite wealthy and I also am guessing there is a lot of family money -- ie: Jim Bob's father had money, etc.

Anonymous said...

I really don't think the Duggars act holier than thou just because they say they don't take govt handouts. They work for their living by various legal means even though it is not the normal 9-5 job. I am sure the nicu stay will be covered by their insurance and what is not covered I am sure they will make the necessary arrangements to pay the bill.

However I am surprised that so many people seem to know all their business! Maybe I missed something in the episodes but I don't watch only so that I can pick apart what they say but I watch out of curiosity to see how so many people can live the way they do. And to be quite honest, TLC only gives us small pieces of their lives and shows only what they think will interest, or in some cases, rile up the audience, so I wouldn't begin to assume that I know what their financial situation or their insurance situation is or is not. I simply could care less what they pay for whether it is "used and save the difference" or if it is new. To me it is more entertaining than many of the violent and morally corrupt shows out their on tv. I DVR most of the shows I watch and let me tell you they are pretty tame.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the entire Duggar family, including the new baby, for the strength to get through this. Whatever God has in plan is what will happen no matter what any of us think, do or say. And that is how a person of faith gets through these kind of tough times. After all, we don't question God when good things happen, so why question when the bad stuff happens?

Cyn said...

The Duggars had Catastrophic type insurance where they pay the first 5k in insurance and then the company pays the rest. They are covered 5 ways from Sunday.

And yes I think even if they weren't covered with insurance I think the Duggars Friends and family COULD raise millions of dollars simply because of who they are.

First thought: If they started a "save Josie" fund millions of people all over the world would start sending in money and other donations. People LIKE the Duggars. Perfect strangers send the new baby's gifts then moan they didn't get personal thank you notes (we've seen this on this blog) You can't tell me people wouldn't send money to that kind of fund IF (and I meant IF) they needed it.

Second thought. Jim Bob was a politician he knows how to raise money.

Third thought. Even if they didn't have the insurance, and couldn't raise the money, and friends didn't start drives for a fund. the Duggars would PAY their bills. They would start selling the large equipment they rent out, and doing more buying and selling of auction items. There is no way on "God's green earth"(southern quote)they would apply for Medicaid or welfare.

Not only would they not apply for it they couldn't QUALIFY for it. Even before TLC they made to much money and now WITH TLC money the completely couldn't qualify for it. Welfare isn't based on what you bring home it's on the total BEFORE taxes, FICA and the rest are taken out)

For those of you that don't know when qualifying for things such as welfare or any state hand outs you can not have more than 2-4k in ANY bank account. Have more than 1 residence (or property), and have so much tied up in things with engines (cars, trucks, BUSES, heavy machinery,)(I can't remember the total) and lets remember they OWN 20-30 acres of LAND where the house sits much less all the commercial property.

(sorry for the rant)

Judy said...

I am wondering if there are no media updates because things are not going well.

Anonymous said...

I don't think the Duggars have been bragging about not taking state money. Their few statements were probably in response to the people who have accused them of being a drain on the state in the past. Too many people jumped on the bandwagon that no one could support that many children on their own. (Thank you hand out for the handout Kate Gosselin for adding to that myth.)

myjeepbeepbeep said...

Knowing TLC..they probably have a clause in their contract that as long as they keep cranking out babies to boost ratings, TLC will cover delivery/medical costs..wouldn't surprise me a bit!

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I do think they have health insurance but it is like "major" medical. In other words in order to keep their preimums low they have to pay out of their pockets for the usual doctor's visits and tests but if something happens that is considered "major" then they are covered so that they do not go into debt.

Anonymous said...

I think some of you are not understanding how Medicaid for premature infants works. The Duggars, like ALL parents of micropremies, are eligible for Medicaid WITHOUT counting parents income or assets.

Premature babies with a birth weight of under 1200 grams are considered "disabled", and are thus eligible "as their own persons", regardless of the wealth or insurance of their parents. Most babies who have Josie's prematurity and weight will be covered by Medicaid, and yes, we all pay into that through our taxes.

People do not pay those types of hospital bills out of pocket.

SaNdY said...

Continuing to pray for baby Josie and the entire Duggar family...with all due respect to all the wonderful posters here, I choose to focus on the health and recovery of this new baby and her mom and her family....

Anonymous said...

I don't think anyone is asking for an hour, or even a day by day update on Josie and Michelle.The Duggars simply have a lot of fans and people caring and praying about them who want to know if they're ok.That said,it's understandable they can't update very often,although I agree,it doesn't seem like them.

Boysmom said...

The fact that the government (and by association, all of us) will be picking up the tab for Josie's million dollar NICU stay negates any of Jim Bob's comments that the family does not take any "government assistance".


Why would you think that? I'm not sure why the government would be paying if they have health insurance, which I know for a fact that Jim Bob has said that they do.

dr bombay said...

While praying for the entire family, I also give thanks that they relied on science (all the medical professionals and their years of studying) to give them the best care possible.

God allowed knowledge and science to save these 2 lives? They must have a belief in scientific fact after all.

While wishing them the best I also have to wonder why they can trust science related to medicine, yet not trust other aspects of the field.

CappuccinoLife said...

"Until you've lived it, you really don't know how it is. It's not something you "get over" or are "at peace with". You live it everyday for the rest of your life. It's like an open wound that never heals."

The loss never goes away, that is true. And there is pain that attends the loss. Even for years afterwards or a lifetime.

But peace is possible. Nobody can say how the Duggar's will respond. But given their beliefs, whatever the outcome, I doubt this will destroy them and I think they will be able to find some level of peace/acceptance without being in denial of the loss. For some the open wound does close up, leaving a scar, yet, but not constantly bleeding.

I worry about Josie now, with no updates. But at the same time, if they're shutting out the world and circling the wagons, more power to them. That is really what they need and as curious as I may be, I'll be very glad if they can stay out of the public eye for a while.

CappuccinoLife said...

And the Duggars on welfare? lol. There is no way. They have far to many assets, on top of their income.

Boysmom said...

I was reading about pre-eclamsia and it sounds to me like there's a high chance that Michelle had HELLP syndrome. Age is a risk as is being 10% or more overweight (which Michelle likely was, having not lost her baby weight yet.) Here's a link:

http://www.preeclampsia.org/hellpsyn.asp

It is fairly likely to recur in future pregnancies.

kdliberty said...

I wonder if they realize how much their lifestyle has changed? Josie is a micro preemie. There are lots of "little things" that you have to do after you finally bring one home. Faithful hand washing is #1. You are also stuck at home a lot with a micro preemie. Their immune system is always compromised! I wonder if Josie is still holding her own? -kd

Anonymous said...

On the SSI/Medicaid front the PP has it right. Until she goes home from the hospital, Josie's entitlement is calculated based on her income and assets - zero. When she leaves the hospital, her household's income and assets come into play.

Cyn said...

Anonymous said...

I think some of you are not understanding how Medicaid for premature infants works. The Duggars, like ALL parents of micropremies, are eligible for Medicaid WITHOUT counting parents income or assets.

Premature babies with a birth weight of under 1200 grams are considered "disabled", and are thus eligible "as their own persons", regardless of the wealth or insurance of their parents. Most babies who have Josie's prematurity and weight will be covered by Medicaid, and yes, we all pay into that through our taxes.

People do not pay those types of hospital bills out of pocket.
***********************************

Keyword here still being ELIGIBLE.
The Bates family in TN are ELIGIBLE for food stamps and TNCARE (TN medicaid) and don't take it. My family is ELIGIBLE for all kinds of welfare and food stamps, and all kinds of things and we don't take it.

Though I am glad to know that ALL babies in NICU are eligible for it and that families don't have to go into bankruptcy over preemie babies like this one. I don't see the Duggars taking it.

Willow #1 said...

My family and I are praying for little Josie and the whole family! God bless the Duggar family at this critical time.

Cyn said...

Anonymous said...

I think some of you are not understanding how Medicaid for premature infants works. The Duggars, like ALL parents of micropremies, are eligible for Medicaid WITHOUT counting parents income or assets.

Premature babies with a birth weight of under 1200 grams are considered "disabled", and are thus eligible "as their own persons", regardless of the wealth or insurance of their parents. Most babies who have Josie's prematurity and weight will be covered by Medicaid, and yes, we all pay into that through our taxes.

People do not pay those types of hospital bills out of pocket.

12/13/2009 6:35 PM

Can you show us a link to this information?

Frankly everything I can find on Arkids says it's based on the Family's income.

http://www.arkidsfirst.com/elig.htm

And on Medicaid's web site -
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicaidEligibility/03_MandatoryEligibilityGroups.asp#TopOfPage

If you can help I'd like to see it.

Debbie said...

God bless the Duggar family. I find them refreshing in this materialistic world. I believe it's not the age of Michelle but rather the amount of trips, filming, etc. for TLC that had probably exhausted her. I'm exhausted just watching it sometimes!

Boysmom said...

Yes, I've heard rumors of this sort of thing, but I've never seen it in action. I have a friend who had a 27 weeker and had to declare bankruptcy because the medicaid didn't kick in until he was about a week old. She was truly eligible I think though, being low income. But the bill was still very high, even for that week. Medicaid for children does not consider assets though, only income.

Even if she is covered by medicaid (which I have doubts about) if she has private insurance that will pay first. Then medicaid will pick up the balance. So there's no million dollar tab being paid by our tax dollars. Most premature babies don't have million dollar pricetags anyway, that's an exaggeration, particularly "millions" as a pp stated.

I looked at the guidelines for medicaid in Arkansas and it states that children under 6 are covered if their mother is medicaid eligible. The Duggars could make about 97,000 and be eligible. They probably make more with the show and all. Assets are not considered. Medicaid is determined state by state, so maybe micropreemies are covered in some states but not in Arkansas.

Snap! said...

Do you think it is odd that we haven't had any updates on Josie or Michelle? This family gives us every detail of their life. For example Jim Bob said they conceived the child on Father's Day. I know when I conceived both my kids- but would never discuss it. They use the media to promote themselves. They always have. Why the silence now?

Anonymous said...

Maybe this hospital will not allow any press/cameras in the NICU? Plus with a baby that young it might be really touch and go for awhile... perhaps they don't want to get anyone's hopes up :(

Anonymous said...

I think the baby would be covered by Medicare (federal) not Medicaid (State). Baby could probably receive SSI and then the Medicare comes with that....

Kat said...

I hope they are not publishing information about Josie because they are spending all their time with her and their family. As much as we might *want* to know what's going on, they are under no direct obligation to tell us, at least in real time. Right now they are dealing with a thousand different things, from processing the paperwork to learning the medical support to managing the family logistics, while also trying to handle the emotional side.

When my child was born with medical issues, I cried every day, several times a day. Part of it was homornal, part was being overwhelmed by what this would all mean to our family, part was fear, etc. I had no energy for dealing with anything other than what was right in front of me at that moment.

If TLC is doing any filming during this time, I hope and pray they are showing more consideration than they did during the Gosselin debacle.

Used to work there said...

So many misconceptions and so little time. SSI is federalized welfare. It was taken over from the states and centralized in 1973. I was there at the time. It does NOT entitle anyone to Medicare only Social Security does that. It is linked with Medicaid.

SSI IS "welfare" as we used to say it. There is no earthly way Josie will qualify for Medicare unless she has a severe kidney problem.

Anonymous said...

Why is everyone assuming the Duggars don't have insurance or that there insurance won't pay for the care of Josie?

I had a preemie in the NICU and we only had to pay 1,000 out of our pocket for his stay and care. The rest was cover by insurance.

Our air lift (helicopter ride) was also covered by insurance.

My friend had preemie triplets that stayed in the NICU for months and their out of pocket for all three only was around 5,000. Insurance paid for the rest.

Nana said...

They make more than enough from TLC to support their family and whatever needs arise. They sold some of their family's privacy to make enough money to support their everygrowing family....to spread their gospel is only a side benefit the show. They were doing financially OK before TLC...now they are doing very well financially in most part from the show. You can see it...just watch the older episodes and compare them to more recent ones.

Of course, everyone wishes their family well...especially Josie and Michelle at this time. I like this family. However, they have always known the risks. They chose to go forth and multiply.

If you know you may get hit by a car if you cross a particular street, you have choices. You can go find an alternative route to get to the other side safely, you can stay on the side of the street you're already on and be content, or you cross. Eventually you'll get hit if you decide the latter....you already know this. The Duggars keep chosing to cross.

Mrs P said...

The Duggars have answered the insurance question several times, and it is in their book.

They do have insurance but it has a high deductible (they've met it already I'm sure, with Michelle's doctor visits and the airlift to the hospital etc).



Mrs P

Jane in California said...

Kat said:
If TLC is doing any filming during this time, I hope and pray they are showing more consideration than they did during the Gosselin debacle.
* * * *

Somehow, I have very little faith that TLC has a humanitarian bone in their collective corporate body. I thin the best we can hope for is that the powers that be at TLC make a fiscal decision that cashing in too obviously on this unexpected development would end up causing more negative publicity than it would be worth in advertising revenue.

Anonymous said...

Jane in California said...

Somehow, I have very little faith that TLC has a humanitarian bone in their collective corporate body.

____________________________

Yeah I didn't appreciate watching a crumbling marriage and Shiloh Pepin die in the ever-so-sensitively-named: Mermaid Girl, the last six months.

Kat said...

Hay, I didn't say I thought TLC HAD any common decency, just that I HOPED and PRAYED they would have. [wry smile]

Anonymous said...

I had pre-eclampsia with my daughter. She was born by emergency c-section at 35 weeks and was perfectly healthy. I was 40 1/2 years myself and nearly died. I had congestive heart failure, my kidneys shut down, my liver was failing and I had so much fluid in my lungs that they couldn't see my heart on a chest x-ray. The doctors told me the next baby would kill me. I only wish I had had a tubal while they were in there. I was in intensive care for 6 days until I was stablized.

This will most likely be the end of "...and counting" for the Duggars. Not the show, just the endless additions to the family. God forbid anything happen to Michelle because you know who would be raising all those kids??? The oldest girls. They would give up what little chance they have now of having a life of their own to raise all those brothers and sisters!

Having said that; my best wishes and prayers for a happy outcome to this drama. I agree with some of the other posters that say that TLC should give them space. However, the family will no doubt say that whatever the outcome to all this is the will of God; which it is, and can give a lot of peace to families going through similar situations.

Anonymous said...

JB said in their book that when God gives you a sense of peace about something,you know it's right.I can't imagine they would feel a sense of peace about future pregnancies.I imagine this is the premise they would go on,if they do decide not to have any more.

Anonymous said...

I have a feeling they disassociated themselves from the QV movement at TLC's request.I see it strictly as a business move.Clearly they follow Gothard,and fit the standards of the qf movement.

Babies gain about 1 lb a week in the last month of pregnancy,so she would not have been underweight had a normal,full-term pregnancy been achieved.
I believe Josie's weight is right in keeping with her gestational age.

Anonymous said...

I'm not seeing the Duggars dissociating that much from QF. That to me isn't the issue with them anyway. The bigger issue is with Gothard.

I think fetuses gain closer to half a pound a week rather than a pound. A 36 weeker would be around 5.5 pounds and a full term infant averages close to 7.5 pounds.

NYgal said...

"I believe it's not the age of Michelle but rather the amount of trips, filming, etc. for TLC that had probably exhausted her. "

I agree completely. Hopefully the Duggars will see this as an opportunity to slow down with the TLC filming and endless trips all over the country. It's tragic that it would take something like this, but I do believe their endless traveling for TLC episodes contributed to this.

I am praying for little Josie and the entire Duggar family.

I'm sure they will give a progress update when they are ready.

Spidermansmum said...

Praying for Michelle and the duggar family = they have a long and hard road ahead of them

Anonymous said...

The Duggars home school their children, not burdening the local school system. They live without debt, teaching their children to live within their means. They have health insurance, which they pay for. If medicaid helps with Josie's medical care, they will be getting no more than most other citizens would receive and have still used less of their entitlements than the average American. I pray for Josie's recovery and hope the Duggars take advantage of any help offered them.

chocolatebee said...

In watching the episode where Michelle and Jimb Bob announce to the children and the visiting Wilsons that she was expecting baby #19 (Little Josie)it seems eerie that Michelle spoke so unsure in the interview portion. It was very telling that Michelle said things like "if she carries the baby" or "if the baby is ok" as if she already knew. Granted the interview portion is normally taped after the actual footage so maybe Michelle had been to the doctor already and had been warned of a risk in the preganancy. I always felt Michelle seemed unusually exhausted during this pregnancy.Also they may have know something could be wrong and that is why they spoke very little of this pregnancy.

Sharla said...

Some complaints about rejected comments have come in. Please remember this is a site about the Duggars not our personal lives and issues. Some short personal commentary is allowed if the main post is about the Duggars. Thank you.

Willow #1 said...

Between J&M, J&A and the Bates, I believe there are about 7 or 8 little girls under 5 years old or so (about-ish ?)- almost a baseball team! Boy, those little girls are going to have a ball growing up together!! Look out!! Extra love and prayers to Michelle and little Josie.

Somebody's Nana said...

Re: the QF movement and the Duggars

To use an odd illustration - all cats are animals, but not all animals are cats.

In the same way, all QF don't use birth control and rely on God, but not using birth control and relying on God doesn't automatically make you a QF. If they say they're not, I believe them.

Regarding the birth control issue - it was the birth control pill that they felt caused the miscarriage and led them to trust God from here on out. If they felt that God was leading them to stop having children, it is possible that they would use other means to avoid pregnancy other than birth control pills or other methods that could jeopardize a pregnancy. But I don't expect them to do an about face - it isn't in their character to take the easy way out. They truly do believe what they say about following the Lord, and will do so even if it isn't easy for them.

Somebody's Nana said...

@Praying for Josie said:
I am praying for a quick recovery for both Josie and Michelle but I really hope she understands that this may be the last baby and not roll the dice again. I dont want to see anything bad happen to this family.


Your words "not roll the dice again" indicate to me that you don't quite understand the Duggars' mindset. While many people make their decisions based on the outcome, they base their decisions on their obedience to God's call - in other words, it is their response that matters, not the outcome of the situation. So, if they felt God was still calling them to step out in faith, they would accept the heartache that may come as result.

It's a different way of living than most people contemplate, but it's not limited to fundamental Christians. For instance, I think of Mother Theresa's life. Many people assumed that she chose the life she led because she seemed so at peace with it. These people were shocked when her letters revealed she struggled with doubts and fears and voiced those doubts to her superiors. What mattered to her was not the outcome of her life, but the obedience to what she knew God was calling her to do.

I know that the Duggars must themselves have times of doubt and questioning. That is why they can honestly say they feel at peace - it's because they've gone to God with their questions and doubts and fears rather than submit to those fears themselves. When they pray, it's nothing like what most people think of prayer - it's not rote words to perform some obligatory action - it's honest communication with their holy God. I suspect that the prayers they pray in private as husband and wife are even more intense and probing. It's the relationship they have with Him that matters more to them than the thoughts of all of us. Quite honestly, we don't even factor into their thoughts, I suspect. They have had an entire marriage that has gone against the norm - even within their own families. If that didn't sway them, we certainly can't! :)

VillageMom said...

[b]Somebodys's Nana[/b], that was beautiful. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

I'm disappointed to see they are laying this all on God and not taking any personal responsibility for Josie being so premature and Michelle having the complication that led to it.God did give us the gifts of reasoning,common sense and intelligence because He intended for us to use them.Otherwise,we would be like animals and be able to reproduce without any forethought or planning.
I sincerely hope this is her last baby.

Preemie mom said...

The unfortunate timing of Josie's birth, imo, does not fall on JB or Michelle's shoulders. My older son was born at 26 weeks gestation. He was our third child and I was 27. I had no previous complications. It can happen to anyone. The fact that Michelle had 18 previous births with no major complications indicates that she wasn't going against the odds with this pregnancy.
Many people disagree with JB and Michelle's choice to have so many children. That is your opinion and you have every right to it. However, to blame Michelle for Josie's early arrival seems unfair.
Also, if you are going to talk about taking risks or going against the odds, you could also argue that an older woman (over 35) getting pg holds a high risk of premature labor, Down Syndrome, miscarriage, etc.
I honestly feel that people feel upset by the amt of children the Duggars have and now feel justified in scolding or "I told you so".

Lydia said...

So, if they felt God was still calling them to step out in faith, they would accept the heartache that may come as result.

If I was a betting person, I would be willing to bet that if Michelle is told that she is in danger of losing her life and ending the life of any future child she may get pregnant with, she and Jim Bob would change the channel they assumed they were hearing God's voice over.

Lydia said...

I honestly feel that people feel upset by the amt of children the Duggars have and now feel justified in scolding or "I told you so".

I guess I am an anomaly. I think a premature birth and pre-eclampsia can strike anyone. I do however think her extreme dieting, advanced age, obvious tiredness and non-stop schedule didn't do anything at all to help and support the pregnancy. The amount of other kids in the home just sort of added to all that. But without the pre-eclampsia, all of they other negatives could probably have been overcome.

I just wish they would realize that the BORN children have a right to adequate parenting from their parents, not just their siblings.

Anonymous said...

While I don't agree with the Duggars obsession about children - I really feel that in a way they are trying to fulfill some need for themselves personally, not for God per se - what has happened with this pregnancy was not because of the "numbers". I am a maternal/fetal educator of nursing students, and have been a maternal/fetal nurse for many years. It's quite clear to me that Michelle had HELLP Syndrome, which is an even more dangerous variant of pre-eclampsia. The fact that it was originally thought to be a gallbladder attack is the obvious indicator of this - it is common for HELLP to be misdiagnosed as a gallbladder issue initially because of the signs and symptoms(although HELLP itself is not common), frequently causing delay in treatment and an emergency. There is absolutely no treatment for this except the delivery of the baby regardless of length of pregnancy. If nothing is done, the baby will die in utero and the risk of maternal death is extremely high.

Before everyone continues to vilify the Duggars, in this situation there was nothing to be done to prevent it. In my years as a nurse, I've seen this condition occur in very young women, older women, first-time mothers and mothers of many, rich families and poor. There are no maternal factors which can account for this - not the number of pregnancies, stress, activity, poor diet, bad habits, etc. It is simply one of the rare but very real risks of pregnancy. The only thing that can be done is to be certain to receive prenatal care so issues such as this can be caught immediately.

Often the baby, even if premature, ends up doing well (although this one as a micro-preemie is at risk), but it is the mother who suffers serious complications afterward. Hopefully that is not the case here, although a family member suggesting a lengthier hospital stay suggests that Michelle may be dealing with some issues afterward (not necessarily serious).

You can find much information on HELLP on the web.

Mandy said...

Amy just posted on Facebook that she just went and saw Josie and Michelle. She reports that both are doing fine.

Wondered also said...

It's quite clear to me that Michelle had HELLP Syndrome,

I thought the same thing, especially after I saw her video from the hospital. She looked slightly yellow. I wondered if her liver was involved via HELLP.

Anonymous said...

I personally don't care how many kids the Duggar's have,but I don't think anyone could argue that other factors,such as advanced maternal age and back -to- back pregnancies for 2 decades could have very well played a part in this.God doesn't will babies to be born 15 weeks premature.He gives us the gift of common sense to be able to think about what we do beforehand and make appropriate choices.

Anonymous said...

Mandy said:
Amy just posted on Facebook that she just went and saw Josie and Michelle. She reports that both are doing fine.
_____________________________
I am not sure how reputable this Facebook page is nor do I know the rules in that particular hospital but I know that most NICU's here in Texas don't allow non immediate family members in the NICU so I have a hard time beliving that Amy could have actually seen baby Josie.Maybe she saw Michelle and was updated on the baby.Some NICUs only allow parents or guardians in, not even siblings due to the fact that preemies immune systems are weak and they're prone to infection. But if this is true, glad to here the baby is doing well.

MOM IN TEXAS

Anonymous said...

The UAMS NICU is different from what most people are apparently used to seeing. The babies are in private rooms so that the parents may spend as much time with the babies as they can or wish. Thus the visitors are not disturbing or potentially infecting another child. It seems the parents may allow adult visitors of their choice. Children 4 to 17 must be close relatives and those under 4 are not allowed. There are even a few rooms where mother is still a patient along with the baby. I would not be surprised at all if Michelle is in one of those rooms.

leesr said...

If I was a betting person, I would be willing to bet that if Michelle is told that she is in danger of losing her life and ending the life of any future child she may get pregnant with, she and Jim Bob would change the channel they assumed they were hearing God's voice over.


I think they know that God does not want Michelle to put herself in danger.
And so, if they hear from reputable and reliable doctors that they trust, that her life would indeed be in danger, I think they would change their conduct in this area.

Cyn said...

http://www.uamshealth.com/?id=970&sid=1

IF I was ever going to have a preemie I wanna do it in Arkansas.

Anonymous said...

Several hospitals in our area (we live in an area with some world-renowned and progressive hospitals) have this same set-up now, where the NICU is individual rooms. Visiting rules are still very strict, but parents have some say, depending. Also, I can imagine that because they are the Duggars there might be some very minor relaxation of those rules.

My first thought, though, was that maybe they are filming with Amy, but then surely the NICU would never allow the cameras/germs in? Then again, I've seen NICUs and preemies shown many times on TV. I sure hope not; I'd lose some respect for the Duggars if they did permit it under hospital permission and TLC's thumb.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous:
The UAMS NICU is different from what most people are apparently used to seeing.....
___________________________________

Thanks for the clarification.

MOM IN TEXAS

pumpkin said...

Baby Josie has made it her first week. Let's all continue to pray for her that she improves!

Jordyn's first birthday is tomorrow, and Jinger's 16th is on Monday. I hope Michelle gets to see her daughters on their birthdays.

Anonymous said...

Although I don't know everything there is to know about the Quiverfull philosophy, I believe that God has given us good minds for a reason. I really do believe we are put in charge of our lives here on earth - with either good or bad choices. We will answer for all of it. Choosing to be good parents to all of your children is a good choice. Continuing to produce children and maybe not be the best parents may not be the better choice. Espcially given the current situation, I think they have been given a new set of circumstances upon which to make a new decision. Who knows, maybe this new situation was given to them as a 'sign' that they have a full quiver. Stop and parent the children you already have and allow the older kids to expand their lives as the young adults they are, not as parents. I'm sure the older girls have been excellent siblings, but they are just that, siblings. You can not replace the parent/child bond. You are not failing to stop birthing children but instead to enjoy and cherish your existing children. It is obviously their decision and they will make it and live with it. But sometimes there is more than one right way.

Anonymous said...

Even if Michelle's age and previous numerous pregnancies did not play a role in Josie's early arrival, once one develops pre-eclampsia or HELLP syndrome, the chance it will develop in future pregnancies is significant. The Duggar website has stated that the whole reason that they have chosen not to use birth control is because they had a miscarriage attributed to the use of birth control pills, were traumatized by a choice that they made contributing to a death. They decided to no longer make choices about controlling their family size and leave it up to God. So if they con't not to use birth control, and the next pregnancy ends with HELLP syndrome, what then???? Are they going to decided that the choice not to use birth control contributed to the situation, OR are they going to just trust that this is somehow God's plan for the family to risk the life of Michelle and baby number 20? That's the part I don't get.

Anonymous said...

Without knowing accurate info and just reading the various posts, Michelle may have experienced HELLP syndrome, a rare and dangerous form of pre-eclampsia. One of the symptoms is severe pain in your upper right quadrant which can be mistaken as gallbladder pain. Like pre-eclampsia, the only cure is to deliver the baby since mother's life is at risk. With HELLP, the mom's liver enzymes become elevated and the liver swells up and can rupture. At same time, blood platelets, drop. My high-risk ob/gyn recommended that I not attempt any additional pregnancies after my experience with HELLP. She told me I have 2 little boys that need their mom too much to risk it. Hopefully, Michelle & Jim Bob will stop at 19.

millifred said...

The video last night available on the TLC site stated that the baby was now able to take breast milk. I am assuming this would be through a feeding tube. Michelle actually looked pretty good in the short video thanking all their supporters. I know the baby must be in serious condition yet, but her body being able to accept breast milk is a good sign. I believe Little Rock is around 200 miles from Tonitown so Michelle will want to stay there in order to provide the feedings is my guess.

HandsOnMom said...

Anonymous said...
I'm disappointed to see they are laying this all on God and not taking any personal responsibility for Josie being so premature and Michelle having the complication that led to it.God did give us the gifts of reasoning,common sense and intelligence because He intended for us to use them.Otherwise,we would be like animals and be able to reproduce without any forethought or planning.
I sincerely hope this is her last baby.

12/16/2009 2:03 PM
****************
I could NOT agree more. In fact, I was just thinking about this today! What sets humans apart from all other animals is our brains and ability to reason. Critical thinking. If you are not going to USE that (some believe , God-given), then why are we not just beasts as all others on the Earth?? That coming from a religious basis--if you believe as I do, in evolution, you can make similar arguments coming from another perspective.
Make no mistake: Michelle and JimBoob have ALWAYS been "TTC." Trying to concieve) NO different than what we were regaled to hear about with Smug's and his wife's attempts from the marriage night on. Case in point: The Amish also beleive in "leaving it up to God " as to how many children to have. I am not aware they term it Quiverful though, although YES I know the Duggars have made much lately about distancing themselves from that term, but lets stay real. Anyway, while Amish families can be large, they are , for the most part , NOT full of 19 siblngs! And the children tend to be farther spaced. Why? Because the mother MOTHERS her baby, including long term breastfeeding. No handing off babies to a "BUDDY" at 6 months. While the other children do MUCH helping in the Amish household, it is NOT in lieu of the mother mothering her OWN children.
So the spacing ends up being farther because Mom is spending longer mothering each child. Nature (or "God") is telling them not to use artificial contraception, however, they are not ACTIVELY TTC. So, every month is a CRAP SHOOT. Check out the fertility statistics based on womens various ages. Now, if you are like the Duggars, probably pretty fertile types to start with just by chance/luck/GOD, whatever you beleive, then you ADD them actively TRYING to TTC, (for whatever their "reasons"), well you get increased chance beyond the usual crapshoot to become Pg again. And there you have J'ichelle and JimBoob.
So YES--IMO I "blame" them for creating this crisis. Not that they DESIRED their baby to be born too early, that is too cut and dried (again, critical thinking ). But in creating willfully the circumstances in to which this had an ever-increasing chance of happening, with ALL these pregnancies.
All to keep Michelle in her "baby addiction" or pregnancy addiction, whichever it is. And yes, I agree with those who feel she "suffers" from this. ALthough I dont' see her as suffering, b/c she obviously seeks it out and ENJOYS the attention. *Secondary gains*, it is a common term used in the medical field. Interestingly, it is a common term used when discussing Munchausen's ! Hmm
As for Michelle? How does this "need" for the constant attention make her much different , in that regard, as say Kate Gosselin?
And if you doubt her need for the spotlight, just think about how her grandchild's First Chrismas is playing out and also will now be remembered forevermore--as a footnote to the drama unfolding with her grandmama and very sick "aunt."
It speaks of things running very deep, indeed. Of course, YMMV.

Kat said...

One note on the comparision to the Amish - There was an interview a while back where Michelle discussed her difficulties in breastfeeding. I believe she said the longest she was ever able to breastfeed was 9 months, and it was usually 3-6 months. That may, in part, account for the numerous pregnancies, often close together.

While breastfeeding in and of itself does not prevent conception, the hormonal effects of breastfeeding combined with the physical and temporal demands can act as a natural form of birth control, "allowing" women to naturally space their children 2-4 years apart without any overt birth control.

Im in PR said...

All to keep Michelle in her "baby addiction" or pregnancy addiction, whichever it is. And yes, I agree with those who feel she "suffers" from this. ALthough I dont' see her as suffering, b/c she obviously seeks it out and ENJOYS the attention. *Secondary gains*, it is a common term used in the medical field. Interestingly, it is a common term used when discussing Munchausen's ! Hmm

I think you are way off base because Jimbob is the one who seeks and enjoys the attention, not Michelle.

CappuccinoLife said...

Hands on Mom,
I must disagree with you. Your post was full of a lot of assumption and factual error.

Firstly, there *are* huge families (like the Duggars) in the Amish community. They are not common because it is simply not common to the human experience to have that many living children. Either because of infant death, infertility, circumstance, or by use of birth control, most humans simply don't have that many children. Also, the Amish are not a monolithic group, and there are many different factions, as well as individual family cultures to take into account. Believe you me, there are Amish families who's kids get formula from a bottle. When my parents had a medical practice in an area where there were Amish and Mennonite families, the people in those communities were some of the worst offenders for putting non-infant food in bottles for their babies, jello included. If you object to the amount of work in the home the Duggar kids do, you'd be horrified by most Amish families as well. I have friends in those communities, but it is not useful to idealize them.

Secondly, Michelle has explained that she nurses as long as she can, but loses her milk *after* she gets pregnant again. It is not uncommon for a woman, even a woman who is nursing with no supplementation, to regain fertility only a few months after she's delivered a baby. Any one with any training in OB/Gyn will tell you that breastfeeding is not a reliable form of birth control. That she has been pregnant this many times is not at all inconsistent with their beliefs of leaving it up to God. It happens. That it happens is one reason why many people love their birth control so much, because they don't want it to happen to them. ;)

I also think it's *really* a stretch to be diagnosing Michelle with psychiatric disorders from the living room couch, on the basis of 30 minutes (minus commercials) of seeing their family a week.

Somebody's Nana said...

Cappucinolife Thanks for the great response. I, too, live in Amish country and was about to post something similar, but thankfully you beat me to it and saved everyone from my verbosity! :)

leila said...

"I think they know that God does not want Michelle to put herself in danger.
And so, if they hear from reputable and reliable doctors that they trust, that her life would indeed be in danger, I think they would change their conduct in this area."

But if God didn't want Michelle's health to be in danger, he wouldn't let her get pregnant again. (No, I don't subscribe to this way of thinking.. But the Duggars do, and they have made that abundantly clear.)

What I think is that when Jim Bob decided that Michelle is going to go off birth control, he never thought about THIS point in their lives. He probably thought Michelle would naturally stop conceiving with age, and all would be rosy. There is a good chance that one day soon, Jim Bob is going to have to choose between a sick wife/child or retracting his beliefs about birth control.

Anonymous said...

HandsonMom----you've stated it perfectly, thanks.

Ollie said...

I read somewhere that the Quiverful movement, so I'm assuming the Duggars as well, do not believe in using even natural family planning (abstaining from sex on the days of the month when the wife is most fertile) to limit the number of pregnancies. What I haven't been able to find so far is the reason why, could someone explain this to me? I guess I just find it confusing because as a Catholic I also do not believe in using birth control, but was taught that as humans we can and should use the God given gifts of reason and self control to help a couple make responsible decisions regarding pro-creation.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the Duggars are responsible for what happened to Josie, unfortunately things can go wrong in any pregnancy. I'm just trying to understand what the theology or reasoning is behind their beliefs.

Cyn said...

Can some one help?

I can't seem to find the video of Michelle AFTER she gives birth to Josie. The one title "Michelle thanks every one" she is still pregnant. They talk about still carrying the baby to term and listening to the baby's heart beat and what not...

And that's the only one I can find either on TLC or any other news sites. I did find places where the news has been shared that the baby is taking breast milk and yada yada. But no newer videos. Am I just missing it or what?

Bible Pearl said...

What I haven't been able to find so far is the reason why, could someone explain this to me?

They believe that to withhold sex for any reason except those outlines in Scripture, would be wrong.Fasting and prayer would be the only reasons given.



"Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that satan tempt you not for your incontinency. " 1Corinthians 7:3-5

Ollie said...

Thanks Bible Pearl!

I guess if you take the Bible literally that could make sense, although I have a hard time seeing it as "withholding" or "defrauding" when it is a decision made as a couple in advance.
My husband and I use the natural method and feel that it is the loving and honoring thing to do to control our desires when we are not prepared to welcome a new baby into the world, and have not yet had a problem with it. However we have only used it for a few months at a time (unlike Michelle I have not yet gotten pregnant while breastfeeding and since we want a large family we are not trying to prevent pregnancy entirely, just space them out a bit) so I guess if it was used as a long term solution you could get into a situation where it could lead to defrauding.
So now another question arises, does this mean that they believe their only option is to keep having sex, regardless of the possible consequences? Or is it permissible to take precautions or abstain (with mutual consent) for reasons of health or safety? I realize that is probably a decision each couple makes individually, but is there any main stream belief in the Quiverful movement on this? Also, since they take literally the part about spouse's bodies belonging to each other, does that mean it is considered wrong to refuse any advances made by your spouse?
I hope nobody takes offense to this, I'm not trying to threaten anybody's beliefs, I'm just honestly curious.

MartinMamma said...

Just for some clarification on the QF thing: I believe Jim Bob and Michelle said didn't associate with the movement because those people believe having children is an obligation, a way of strengthening God's army. The passage in the bible - where they actually get the name - says: "Behold, children are a gift of the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; They will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate." (The first half of that Psalm is on their website I believe.)

The Duggars see children as a blessing from God, not an obligation to him.

millifred said...

In answer to where is the video of Michelle after giving birth, I think that was a misconception. I listened to the current video posted and the first time I heard it I thought it was after the birth and they were thanking everyone for support and prayers. The video wasn't playing very well. Then I listened to it again last night and Jim Bob said something at the end about hoping and praying the baby could be carried to full term. I had seen the video in conjunction with the report of the baby taking breast milk. I had also read a comment on here earlier about a recent video after the birth which also led me to believe this was after. Michelle is lying in bed just showing from the neck up so it's not obvious she is still pregnant and of course she was only 5 months along anyway. I apologize for the misinformation.

imaamy said...

Cyn, I too searched and could only find the one when Michelle was first admitted.

Anonymous 3:14 said...

Anonymous 12/17 8:16: "That is why I get defensive at least. There are really intelligent fundamental Christians out there in the world."

There are also really intelligent non-believers (athiests) out there in the world too, contributing to society and trying to make the world a better place. We get defensive when people criticize us as somehow being "lost" or "not as good".

Part of the lively discussion on this board stems from the differences between the two. I like reading the explanations provided by some commenters regarding why the Duggars do and don't do some of the things in their lives. I don't always understand the Duggars (most times I'm flabbergasted by their behavior), but after all, this is a blog about the Duggars, who have chosen to put their live "out there" on television for all the world to see.

Lynne said...

http://www.4029tv.com/video/22000976/index.html

Michelle is out of the hospital. She attended a meeting for obtaining liquor permits to speak out against a local convenience store application.

Thinking about it said...

Long-time lurker, first time poster... want to throw another idea in the mix.

1. What if Michelle is just really really GOOD at pregnancy and childbirth? Call it gifted, even.

So that maybe, when we are moaning and groaning, "My gosh, she just popped one out, why on earth go through all that pain and agony again??" "How can she take care of her kids when she is pregnant all the time? It takes too much energy!!!"

Maybe, if she is just a LOT better than the average woman at childbearing, she doesn't experience the negatives the way the rest of us do. Put another way; I can barely jog to the end of the block. Marathon runners go for miles without a huff or puff. They are healthier, more coordinated, just better. I don't say to them, "Oh my God, stop running, do you know how sore you're going to be? You're going to pull something, you're going to have an asthma attack, it's not good for you!"

Maybe Michelle is a marathon-runner-type of mother, as far as pregnancy.

2. What if JimBob and Michelle are, if not gifted, at least PASSIONATE about parenting and family? Again, with the analogy... even if I were healthy enough to train for that marathon, I would sooner eat worms than run for no reason. My kids will run for hours, but in play, with other things to distract them. A marathon runner must see and feel things differently... they must get so much more joy from the positives that they can easily tolerate and maybe even ignore the negatives.

What if all the negatives of a large family, and the work it entails, just don't register as much with them, because of their passion for it?

3. Maybe it's not Quiverfull, or God, or selfishness, or wanting to be the center of attention... maybe it's the combination of #1 and #2 that produced the unique circumstances and experience of this family. Maybe, in their minds, they would have a large family of 4 or 6 kids, but Michelle's gifted uterus just kept cranking them out. Maybe they would have stopped when it became overwhelming, but because of the passion for family, it just never did, at least consistently.

Maybe they're just as amazed at the outcome as the rest of us. And that is why they keep thanking God. And attributing it to Him.

No inside information here, just pondering... ; )

Anonymous said...

Cyn said:
Can some one help?

I can't seem to find the video of Michelle AFTER she gives birth to Josie. The one title "Michelle thanks every one" she is still pregnant. They talk about still carrying the baby to term and listening to the baby's heart beat and what not...
_________________________________

I also looked several times and was unable to find the video as well. I only see the video with Michelle discussing her gallstones. I don't guess someone would have made that up, right? I hope not but wouldn't be surprised. Maybe someone can help us out.

MOM IN TEXAS

Free Enterprise said...

http://www.4029tv.com/video/22000976/index.html

Michelle is out of the hospital. She attended a meeting for obtaining liquor permits to speak out against a local convenience store application to sell beer.

------------------

And of course, then the permit was denied for that location, despite other stores in the same area being approved.

Why wasn't Michelle with her baby in the NICU?

Even if the Duggars felt they needed to speak up at the hearing, why couldn't JimBob or Josh attend?

I guess it's because a crying mother of 19 children, advocating for permit denial, makes it easy for the authorities to just deny the permit. Goodness, when a Duggar speaks, by gosh, people listen, right ?

The news report says the store has the right to appeal. I hope they do so, just based on principle.

millifred said...

The newest news release which tell us that Michelle has been released also quote her as saying, "We will cherish every moment we have with her". That sounds like something one might say if they didn't expect their little one to survive. I remember feeling that way about my preemie who is now 40 years old. I hope it is just that same fear that I had and not anything more definite!

Midwest Mom said...

The People magazine article says that the pre-eclampsia was discovered when Michelle was admitted to the hospital for the gallstone problem.

In the Duggars' book (Chapter 2, I believe), they state that Michelle had pre-eclampsia with her second pregnancy, and that is why the oldest twins (Jana & JohnDavid) were delivered by c-section. It's not too big a stretch to assume she'd have a problem with it in subsequent pregnancies also.

YesI Know said...

Part of the lively discussion on this board stems from the differences between the two. I like reading the explanations provided by some commenters regarding why the Duggars do and don't do some of the things in their lives. I don't always understand the Duggars (most times I'm flabbergasted by their behavior), but after all, this is a blog about the Duggars, who have chosen to put their live "out there" on television for all the world to see.

12/18/2009 6:26 AM
****************
Anon 3:14--Thank you.
And even those of us who are not atheists, but Christians as well, (just not Whatever type of Christian is OK with the Duggars?) , object to being called misled, lost, blah blah and the like. :-)
Isnt' that why blogs exist (supposedly), to SHARE views? And (gasp): maybe learn something, or at least think about something differently for a few minutes? Otherwise, I can just go "read through" someone's blog entry-after-entry, with no comments or opportunity to respond. Boring!

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