Fact or Fiction

I often get frustrated when I see misinformation quoted as fact in a discussion on the Duggar family. That misinformation is then passed on and in the minds of others, becomes “truth”. What misinformation has caught your attention in these forums and elsewhere? Even better, can you post a link to the correct information?

Thanks to Somebody's Nana.

109 comments:

Kaekae said...

Well there is the obvious - Short HairCut = Josh sent away to a Christian teen prison camp for molesting a girl which conveniently let him come back for filming throughout the year or they were filming and TLC conspired with the Duggars to hide it (before the 1st special even aired) instead of dropping the Duggars like a sack of bricks.

But almost a big of reach and one the most aggravating rumors was this summer, a board was Positive No Question About it that Mrs. Duggar had had a hysterectomy during the C-Section with Jordan. I must admit getting a kick out the announcement a few weeks later that she was pregnant with #19.

Cyn said...

The lie "The Duggars built that big house so they could claim it as a church and not have to pay property taxes" (the variations are endless)

Truth =

https://www.ark.org/washingtoncounty/index.php?ac:show:step3b_itemdetail=1&billno=2901455
1)Personal Property 921.04
2)Real Estate 4,021.33
3)Real Estate 998.22
4)Real Estate 7,646.21
Homestead Credit -350.00
Timber Tax 1.05

TOTAL for the properties ONLY in that ONE county that belong to them is $13,237.85


This is the one that drives me the most up the wall.... before I found that web site I would just send people to the IRS site to show them why the Duggars could not qualify for a 501(3)c charity but since Kathie so nicely found the property tax site for the Duggars' area it's been much easier to dispel that myth.

sheekymonkee said...

The hysterectomy rumor is news to me lol! I had heard that Josh had molested his sisters and because of this Oprah, who had interviewed the Duggars for her show, never aired the show because she found out what Josh had done. The whole Josh molesting story is false, right?

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Thanks for finding that web site about the taxes they pay. I knew that they paid about 13 grand a year for property taxes but the rumor kept going on and on about their home church and no taxes had to be paid.

I am wondering with all those parcels of land if they are purchasing land for their children to build homes as they marry and leave their present home. I know JB said he hopes some day some may choose to build a home on their 20 acre property but perhaps with so many children he may be purchasing property for other children.

This is just a thought so I hope no one reads this as a fact and goes with it.

Cyn said...

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I am wondering with all those parcels of land if they are purchasing land for their children to build homes as they marry and leave their present home. I know JB said he hopes some day some may choose to build a home on their 20 acre property but perhaps with so many children he may be purchasing property for other children.

This is just a thought so I hope no one reads this as a fact and goes with it.
******************************
ROFL you know they will....

But in all seriousness Michelle was asked in some interview if they still helped support Josh... She was shocked at the question and then laughed and said "leave and cleave baby"

Made me wonder if they would just sell off parcels to their kids and not just 'gift it' it to them. (at a reduced price of course, but at the same time not just GIVING it to them so they re not dependent on their parents)

You have to give the Duggars some credit in this instance; when those kids leave they aren't going to be moving back in with their parents for years on end because the college education they got didn't support them OR they got into so much debt they had to come back home to cut costs the way so many of the baby boomers kids are doing.

Nancy said...

Cyn, how do you know that none of the kids will fall on hard times and have to move back home? There are cases where young people have to do this because they are not responsible but there are certainly times when it is just the hard luck of the draw. I think it is very possible that their lack of education and prolific child breeding could lead to some of them requiring help. I guess if you mean that the Duggars won't allow them to come home for help and would allow them to go hungry I guess that's possible but I hope not.

Cyn said...

Those kids are never allowed to be alone, so I don't know what Ma and Pa Duggar are so afraid of.

I HAD to drag this one over because it just belonged in "fact or Fiction" (they posted it in hash out the mini mart) If this is 'boards on boards' let me know and I won't do it again, cause I'm not real sure what that term means.

Fact = the girls have been babysitting for years OTHER peoples children.
Fact = the older girls went out of COUNTRY to the orphanage
Fact = They run errands into town
Fact = John David runs his OWN towing business.

The list can go on and on.

PS yes the Oprah story is the myth that is tied into the Josh one. It actually came from ONE blog (claiming to know them personally and saw them head off to do the Oprah show) and spread from there.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I do remember her saying "leave or cleave" and that Josh will have to stand on his own supporting his family.

However, I wonder like the Maxwells and others who are of the belief of being debt free that the family does not help them "set" up so they can be debt free. I have read the book that the Maxwells have published explaining how their sons are raising their families debt free. They are given some help with the purchase of the land and I do believe in one of those blogs I was reading about how for such and such amount, the amount usually equal to be given as wedding gifts they could have a house built on the purchased land. In fact they broke it down to the dollar of how much bricks, nails and other building items cost and had people pledge or give the items so the house could be built debt free.

It is not unbiblical for families to help the next generation. In fact in the OT land was to stay within a family and that is why "sons" were important. Also when a woman married and her husband died she often was given as a wife to another brother so the land stays within the family.

I do believe in the Bible days often a couple did not work for a year after their marriage so their family supported them. That is a "gift" given for the bonding. That gives them time to perhaps establish their relationship and lifelihood so they have a solid foundation so that they would function more independantly.

I see that many of the debt free families help their older children as they grow into adult hood to get involved in businesses and trades so when it is time for them to marry they will have the means to support themselves. Just like many families may put out the big $$ to send their children to college these families support their children in other ways so they can be independant.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"The hysterectomy rumor is news to me lol! I had heard that Josh had molested his sisters and because of this Oprah, who had interviewed the Duggars for her show, never aired the show because she found out what Josh had done. The whole Josh molesting story is false, right?"

All we really know is that something happened for the saying "There is sin in the camp". It has never been told to the public on TV or in their book what the sin is so that about molesting his sister's is a rumor being that we do not know if that is what the "sin" was.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Cyn is just saying what Mrs. Duggar stated. I remember her taling about leaving and cleaving.

Anonymous said...

The girls do not babysit alone. Example: JoyAnna went with Jill.

The kids do not go on the mission trips alone.

They do not go to the store alone, or anywhere in a car alone.

We don't know if John David is ever towing a car alone, since we have never seen it.

I stand by my fact that the Duggar children are never allowed to be alone.

In fact, not even an engaged couple can be without a chaperone, which certainly does not allow any development at all of emotional intimacy, which is why Josh and Anna often seem like young teenagers, as opposed to a married couple with a baby.

Anonymous said...

Josh had his head shaved, which means something in Gothard-land (something with sin). I don't know the sin, but there clearly was one that Gothard believed that Josh needed to be chastised for.

Cyn said...

My phrasing may have been off... My point was they are not going to just GIVE them boat loads of money so they never have to work or learn to be independent.

Help is different than creating children dependent on hand outs to survive. The kids have been taught from day one if you don't have the money don't buy it... I don't see any of the Duggar kids going out and wracking up credit cards or student loans for college, or bank loans or buying cars on payments and so forth can you?

Most kids coming home to live with older parents got in trouble with DEBT, or divorce, wrong college degree so now they can't get a job and so on...

YET on the other hand if one of them after moving out and having family becomes a widow or widower, or some major catastrophe happens I can see them 'circling the wagons' and pitching in to help out even to the point of building a house on their land for the 'hurting' family to live in.

Anonymous said...

Now that I think about it, Josh seems pretty distant from his sisters. John David seems more comfortable around the older girls.

But to be honest, I highly doubt that Josh molested his sisters.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I think it is commendable that they do not do these things alone. It is good they take someone to baby sit with them. I had no one to take but used to take my Dog "Tippy". Their parents are so wise.

Anonymous said...

Independent thinking is a good thing, not something to be feared. These poor kids have never had five minutes to form their own thought. It isn't just that they can't babysit alone (I have no problem with that at all but was dispelling the myth that they DO things alone, like babysit, as someone said), they can't do ANYTHING alone.

I don;t think young adults should have to share a bedroom, camp style, with their ten same sex toddler and elementary aged siblings either. It isn't developmentally appropriate. I am not saying all the kids should have their own rooms, but certainly the four oldest girls should be in a room by themselves.

Of course, they CAN'T be alone, since they are responsible for their baby siblings at night.

And let's not pull up that tired old canard that the kids WANTED to be in one room. Sure they did...when they were ten or 12. Now they are 18 and 20, and I would bet, dollars to donuts, that they do not want to be in that situation, but they are stuck.

Why are people so afraid to let young people grow up, make decisions, and have a life that is THEIR life? That's the point of having children! At least that was how I saw it! Raising independent adults is a joy!

Somebody's Nana said...

Anonymous said:Independent thinking is a good thing, not something to be feared. These poor kids have never had five minutes to form their own thought. It isn't just that they can't babysit alone (I have no problem with that at all but was dispelling the myth that they DO things alone, like babysit, as someone said), they can't do ANYTHING alone.

I don;t think young adults should have to share a bedroom, camp style, with their ten same sex toddler and elementary aged siblings either. It isn't developmentally appropriate. I am not saying all the kids should have their own rooms, but certainly the four oldest girls should be in a room by themselves.


When large families were common, so were some things that you seem to feel will cripple them emotionally: babysitting together was common because babysitting families of more than 2 or 3 children is a LOT of work; doing things together is common because you enjoy being with your siblings as friends, not just as siblings; sharing a room was common because in the old days (my generation) few homes had enough rooms to split by age groups. I challenge you to point out facts that show that prior generations were less capable and less emotionally mature because they did these things and were forced to share. Independent thinking happens even in groups, or else no one would ever think a single original thought.

Ollie said...

I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe when Josh had his head shaved he had just come back from some ATI bootcamp like program for boys. This was not meant as a punishment, but rather was an educational opportunity to learn survival type skills. I think I read somewhere that John David also attended the training, I think it's called ALERT.
I find it highly unlikely that he molested anyone because:
1. There are no official documents stating such, the only place you hear about it is in anonymous forums
2. His parents allowed him to live at home with his sisters until he married, seems unlikely if he was hurting them
3. None of his sisters or brothers seems to have a problem with him, such as avoidance or fear which one would expect to see if their were abuse
4. If this were true do you really think the Keller family would have let him marry Anna, assuming of course they knew which I'm sure they would have since people on the internet claim to know
I feel sorry for this young man who has his reputation slandered by anonymous people online with nothing better to do than make up shocking stories about people. It's sad because every time false allegations are made it just makes it harder for real victims to get justice.

Somebody's Nana said...

But to be honest, I highly doubt that Josh molested his sisters.

Oh, please... this one is just plain stupid! With a family this public, and so many other people involved, there is no way that this could've happened without leaking to someone, somewhere.

Please do not discuss rumors as if they could be true! This just contributes to someone taking a line out of context and repeating it somewhere else...

im.in.PR@gmail.com said...

I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe when Josh had his head shaved he had just come back from some ATI bootcamp like program for boys.

ATI bootcamps are very popular and head shaving is the norm. Many times when there is a national disaster, ATI Bootcamp grads show up to help. If I remember correctly, they wear yellow shirts, blue or khaki pants and rugged work boots. It's a highly esteemed group in those circles.

There was an F5 tornado in a near-by community and the ALERT (ATI Bootcampers) teams were some of the first people to show up and among the last to leave. Most of the young men were still homeschooling, but took the time away from their studies to come and help this community. They worked tirelessly and were not paid. Nor did they ask for any money.

I'm not a Bill Gothard fan at all, but the ALERT teams I see as more of a positive for the young men that homeschool. This is the camp Josh went to, for an ALERT team.

Anonymous said...

Ollie said:
I feel sorry for this young man who has his reputation slandered by anonymous people online with nothing better to do than make up shocking stories about people. It's sad because every time false allegations are made it just makes it harder for real victims to get justice.
___________________________________

My thoughts exactly.Thank you for stating this. While this is a fact or fiction post and this is my first time ever hearing this rumor, it disturbs me greatly to think that someone would spread such a vicious rumor. And the fact that it's being discussed here makes me uneasy. I know how some people can take things and run with them so seeing a piece of this story may cause them to further spread rumors.

The first thing that came to mind when I read the alleged story and Josh having his head shaved was the ALERT camp. I noticed that the older boys who were in charge when the younger Duggars attended the ATI conference also had their heads shaved. So I believe this is where Josh may have been. Molestion and sexual abuse is so serious. I feel people shouldn't speculate about it without any evidence.

MOM IN TEXAS

SuzanneDeAZ said...

I have never seen anything written or said about them not believing in mix race marriages. I think it is important that people are married that have the same religious beliefs and are of the opposite sex but that is all. Maybe age may have some weight but nothing I read about race.

im.in.pr@gmail.com said...

I have often read that those who have similar beliefs as the Duggars believe in a "pure race"

I have been around fundamentalists and homeschoolers for the better part of 12 years now and I have never heard the idea of "pure race" taught or even mentioned.

It seems to me that people posting spurious rumors about Josh and suggesting that the Duggars are racists have crossed the line from merely disagreeing with the Duggars to intentionally maligning them.

Terra said...

How about Michelle and Jim Bob's own fiction? They constantly say that she had a miscarriage after Josh was born because she was on birth control. There is no conclusive evidence to support a link between being on birth control and a higher risk of miscarriage.

Cyn said...

"The Duggars don't believe in interracial relationships, and believe it is best to stay within ones religion, race and age parameter".

Not in their book OR in any interview I have ever read and I'd think if nothing else when they were on the "View" Whoopie would not have been such supporter had this been true and Behar would have gone on and on about it.

Kaekae said...

Anonymous said...
Josh had his head shaved, which means something in Gothard-land (something with sin). I don't know the sin, but there clearly was one that Gothard believed that Josh needed to be chastised for.


I am afraid that is just another rumor.
I think the entire "sin in the camp" thing is another rumor with various spin offs. The only source is a single post from a user on a board and that was the only post they made to that board. smells like a troll to me.
I refuse to believe any aspect of it. All I know is that they are part of ALERT and Josh had a Crew Cut at one point (both of those I've seen on the shows).
He may have gone to boot camp or he may have decided to cut his hair. Or he may have had a Michael Jackson moment and lit his hair on fire and had to have it cut off.
please don't spread that last (poor) joke as truth or even rumor. :)

Cyn said...

Terra said...

How about Michelle and Jim Bob's own fiction? They constantly say that she had a miscarriage after Josh was born because she was on birth control. There is no conclusive evidence to support a link between being on birth control and a higher risk of miscarriage.

1/01/2010 3:03 AM
***********************************
When I took Sex Ed in Highschool (20 years ago and about the same time Michelle had her miscarriage) we were taught that the pill made it almost impossible for the fetus to attach to the lining BECAUSE the pill made the lining of the uterus unable to accept the implantation of the fetus. Thus causing a miscarriage especially if you continue taking the pill.

Michelle has said her DOCTOR told her the pill caused the miscarriage so frankly it's NOT a fiction to the Duggars and there is no way at this point you could convince them that it didn't.


http://www.epm.org/artman2/publish/prolife_birth_control_pill/A_Short_Condensation_of_Does_The_Birth_Control_Pill_Cause_Abortions.shtml
In summary, according to multiple references throughout The Physician's Desk Reference, which articulate the research findings of all the birth control pill manufacturers, there are not one but three mechanisms of birth control pills:

1. inhibiting ovulation (the primary mechanism),

2. thickening the cervical mucus, thereby making it more difficult for sperm to travel to the egg, and

3. thinning and shriveling the lining of the uterus to the point that it is unable or less able to facilitate the implantation of the newly fertilized egg.
The first two mechanisms are contraceptive. The third is abortive.

Michelle was simply the one of those VERY unlucky ones that the pill failed in it's first 2 objectives but succeeded in the 3rd objective.

kaekae said...

I am wondering with all those parcels of land if they are purchasing land for their children to build homes as they marry and leave their present home. I know JB said he hopes some day some may choose to build a home on their 20 acre property but perhaps with so many children he may be purchasing property for other children.

Jim Bob is in real estate - this is their primary source of income (I would assume, although I have no idea how much they make from the show and how much he makes from real estate) - apparently he has a bunch of rental properties, warehouses, office buildings and so forth. I doubt the properties are anything people would want to live in/on.

Cyn said...

kaekae said... Jim Bob is in real estate - this is their primary source of income (I would assume, although I have no idea how much they make from the show and how much he makes from real estate) - apparently he has a bunch of rental properties, warehouses, office buildings and so forth. I doubt the properties are anything people would want to live in/on.
***********************************

The 20 acre lot they bought that had the chicken hatchery that they turned into commercial rental space is the SAME parcel of land they have the house on....

The long driveway we see in some shots is coming from the highway past the rental stuff back to their house. Book pages 108 and then the chapter called "a house built with love"... it's also the same area they re talking about when they say 'some of the kids may want to build a house on the land". The land was appraised at 1 mil but they eventually bought it for 300,000.00 and they paid CASH for it, by selling 2 of their other commercial properties. BTW they did it before TLC came along.

From what I have seen of the property it's quite beautiful and I wouldn't mind having a house there.

Somebody's Nana said...

CynMichelle has said her DOCTOR told her the pill caused the miscarriage so frankly it's NOT a fiction to the Duggars and there is no way at this point you could convince them that it didn't.

And as you so elequently pointed out, there IS a medical reason why not to continue taking the pill if you become pregnant. They don't put the warnings on the packages for nothing!

It's just that most people either don't get pregnant, so they don't worry about miscarrying, or they may not even realize that a late/heavy period may have been an early miscarriage.

So M & JB base their decision on a rare, but real complication of the pill. It's not a decision that everyone would make, but it is consistent with their belief that all life matters.

Carmen said...

Cyn said...

When I took Sex Ed in Highschool (20 years ago and about the same time Michelle had her miscarriage) we were taught that the pill made it almost impossible for the fetus to attach to the lining BECAUSE the pill made the lining of the uterus unable to accept the implantation of the fetus. Thus causing a miscarriage especially if you continue taking the pill.

-------------------

In the cases where an egg doesn't implant, pregnancy hasn't actually happened yet, so it's not a miscarriage. If you believe that life begins when sperm meets egg then yes, it does cause the end of a life, but at that point you wouldn't have had any pregnancy symptoms yet because it's SO early on in the process. Implantation doesn't happen a lot of the time - it's not always caused by birth control, and it's never considered a miscarriage.

A miscarriage is when implantation has happened and then the pregnancy ends. There's no way for Michelle to be talking about implantation not happening because neither she nor her doctor would have any way of knowing that it happened - science just isn't that advanced yet.

She must be talking about an actual pregnancy (post-fertilization) that ended.

Somebody's Nana said...

Things that I DO NOT BELIEVE to be true:

1. JB controls Michelle NOT!
2 The teens have no outside activities NOT!
3. The Duggars do not trust their children NOT!
4. The teens raise the smaller children NOT!
5. They buy new clothing NOT!
6. They make a lot of money for each show NOT!
7. They wouldn't be debt free if not for the show, so it's unrealistic for them to expect their children can remain debt-free NOT!
8. JB didn't speak to Josh until the night before the wedding NOT!
9. The Duggars are racist NOT!
10. The Duggars are narcissists NOT!

... there are more...

Nancy said...

Actually, although the pill has an "abortive" (in some people's opinion) effect sometimes - what you described was not what happened to the Duggars. When that happens, it just means that the egg does fertilize but does not attach due to the thin uterine lining. The woman never shows pregnancy symptoms or has a positive pregnancy test in that case because the fertilized egg does not attach - she is never actually pregnant (not to get into the debate about whether it was a baby or not - I respect all opinions in that area). She wouldn't know if the pill caused that to happen once or lots of times. An actual miscarriage, where she knew she was pregnant, is different. I have no idea why her doctor told her that the pill caused her miscarriage. (i'm not a doctor) But I am a Catholic (who was raised not to take the pill for the very reason you cited but did anyhow) who did indeed get pregnant while taking the pill and have a 23 year old as a result. The doc told me that once I realized I was pg and stopped taking the pills that the risks to the baby were minimal. I actually know several people who had pill babies. I'd be surprised if there is real evidence that the pill caused the miscarriage - or that they have any idea what really caused it.

Betty said...

To me the question is not whether we know today if the pill causes miscarriages or not but what Michelle and Jim Bob were told more than 20 years ago. I'm older than Michelle and became pregnant while on the pill and miscarried a few days after finding out I was pregnant. The doctor and all the older women where I worked all told me the miscarriage was due to being on the pill.

I believe that they well may have been told that. Instead of deciding to give up on birth control, we decided to try another method. People do different things with the same information. Their doctor may have had his own agenda going to tell them that or may have honestly believed it.

Anonymous said...

re:Their doctor may have had his own agenda going to tell them that or may have honestly believed it.

====================================

That's what I think.They talked to a Dr who didn't believe in birth control,and he used guilt and fear to promote his own wishes.
Plenty of women naturally miscarry (I believe the rate is about 25%,so it's rather high), even if they aren't taking the pill ,so there is NO way of no exactly WHAT caused Michelle to miscarry.It's a shame they actually believed such a loony dr with his own personal agenda.I think it really affected them,obviously.
BTW,if I'd have gotten pregnant with twins,a boy and a girl(or whatever)I would have considered that to be God's way of paying me back,and I would have stopped with that.JB and Michelle never seemed to take that into consideration.

Cyn said...

@ Betty Thank you... that was what I was going for in my rambling way.

@ Carmen and Nancy Most conservative Christians believe life begins at conception, and the Duggars are nothing if not conservative Christians.

Michelle miscarried between her 2nd and 3rd month. "When the doctor told us the miscarriage probably happened because she had conceived while still on the pill, we were devastated. To us, it meant that something we had chosen to do - use the pill - had cause the end of the pregnancy. As conservative Christians, we believe every life is sacred, even the life of the unborn."

Direct quote from the book and why I grabbed the link I did in the earlier post. Depending on the doctor you ask and that doctors beliefs you will get a different answer the question "does birth control cause miscarriages or spontaneous abortions"

Somebody's Nana said...

Some of you younger women have always had many versions of the pill available, and they are completely different from what was available 25 years ago. When I was young, there were many complications from the pill including serious, life-threatening ones. I have no doubt that continuing the pill in those days while pregnant could affect a pregnancy.

Just because the embryo implants does not mean it is a strong, successful implantation. Many women have trouble with this very thing even if they do not take the pill. Since the pill affects the lining of the uterus, it is possible that it could affect the quality of the implantation, especialy 25 years ago.

Carmen said...

@cyn - Her miscarriage had nothing to do with your #3 though. While 20 years ago a doctor may have thought that the pill caused a 2nd month miscarriage, and while some doctors today believe that life begins at fertilization and therefore the pill has abortive properties, no doctor today will say that conceiving on the pill will cause a 2nd month miscarriage.

I do think that they honestly believed that the pill caused their miscarriage, but if it was a 2nd month miscarriage, it didn't, and they're believing it mistakenly.

im.in.PR@gmail.com said...

6. They make a lot of money for each show NOT!

If they are not doing it for a lot of money, they are sure stupid.

Somebody's Nana said...

im.in.PR@gmail.com said...
"6. They make a lot of money for each show NOT!"

If they are not doing it for a lot of money, they are sure stupid.

Not everyone is motivated by money. Haven't they said that they want to share who God is to others? I see this as their primary reason for doing the show. I guarantee you that if they could not mention their faith, they would leave the show immediately.

Anonymous said...

WHy on earth would they compromise their family's privacy, safety and normalcy, by having cameras in their home, at their births, in the faces of their young, impressionable children, if NOT for money? Why would they think that giving up their privacy was worth it, even to mention their faith? Don't they think enough people know about evangelical Christians in the US?

Somebody's Nana said...

Anonymous said: Why would they think that giving up their privacy was worth it, even to mention their faith? Don't they think enough people know about evangelical Christians in the US?


To those who think that only money makes anything worthwhile, this answer will mean nothing. I cannot convince you that to share their faith is everything to them if you do not value anything higher than money. If you think that money is the only thing that would make it worth doing, than, no, you do not understand their faith at all.

There do exist people all over the world who value their faith enough that it informs and shapes everything they do. The Duggars aren't just good people; they are led to please their God through how they live.

You may understand it better if you think of other people, outside of faith, who have given up everything to help others or to do some greater good. These people were not driven by money, either. They were driven by the desire to do something outside themselves and for a greater purpose.

As are the Duggars...

im.in.PR@gmail.com said...

Not everyone is motivated by money. Haven't they said that they want to share who God is to others? I see this as their primary reason for doing the show.

That wasn't the point. You said they didn't make a lot of money for doing the show.

My contention is if they are working that hard and not being adequately compensated, that isn't very smart.

The Bible says that the workman is worthy of his hire. That includes the Duggars.

Anonymous said...

Re: Some of you younger women have always had many versions of the pill available, and they are completely different from what was available 25 years ago.

-------------------------------------

I've been married for 25 yrs,so I KNOW some of the same pills used then are also used now.There is NOT that much difference.They are the same standard 35 microgram synthetic estrogen pills with around .5-1 mg progestin per pill.
The only difference now is the lowered estrogen amounts in SOME pills (the newer very low dose pills with 20-30 micrograms per pill) but they still need around .5-1mg progestin in order to be effective.
So I'm really not sure exactly what you mean.

Anonymous said...

The point people continue to try to make though, is that compromising privacy and modesty by putting ones family on national television on a reality show is simply not very Godly. It flies in the face of all common sense, and I really don't think God himself would approve.

Somebody's Nana said...

im.in.PR said: My contention is if they are working that hard and not being adequately compensated, that isn't very smart.

The Bible says that the workman is worthy of his hire. That includes the Duggars.


The degree of difficulty in taping the show probably isn't as high as most people think. Taping is done in clumps - a lot can be gotten from one taping, and the majority of the work is done in editing. I never said the pay wasn't adequate - I said it wasn't a lot, meaning the inflated amounts you see floating around on the web are grossly exaggerated. People seem to think that there is a per-person formula which is highly unlikely due to TLC's past history with other reality shows. It's usually a flat rate per show completed/shown on tv from what I understand.

The Bible does talk about an honest wage, but mostly from the perspective of admonishing the employer to pay an honest wage. The Bible also talks to the slave about staying with his master, but that is not related to this discussion at all. Essentially, the admonishments are for those who claim to be faithful to have standards above that of others.

But in this case, you can assume that the Duggars feel their compensation is fair or they wouldn't have agreed to it. They did not need the money so they were not coerced into the agreement. You can also assume, because they've said so, that the motive of sharing their faith and the gospel far outweighs any monetary compensation. If compensation was all that Christians valued for sharing their faith, we would have no pastors or missionaries, most of whom live near or below the poverty level and quite willingly so.

With the Duggars (as opposed to J&K) the discussion of money and reasons for the show must include the stated reasons they gave for doing the show, or nothing makes sense.

Nancy said...

Somebody's Nana - unless you know the Duggars (and know their every thought) you don't really know for a fact that the money doesn't influence them. They certainly use it - their lives have changed dramatically since TLC. Why don't they donate it all to charity if they are really only doing this to show their Godliness? I don't blame them for making money at all - but you seem quite certain that they don't care about it at all. I guess I think their actions seem to show something different.

Cyn - as I stated in my post - I am a Catholic. We were among the first told not to use the pill due to it's "abortive" nature. I wasn't arguing with you that some believe that the baby exists upon fertilization. It still doesn't make the item #3 in your list a valid reason that the Duggars believe their actual miscarriage was caused by the pill. I do find it a big leap to go from not using the pill to not using ANY birth control but it's not my life...

CappuccinoLife said...

"I have often read that those who have similar beliefs as the Duggars believe in a "pure race" "

Just because certain beliefs overlap does not mean that the two different groups that hold them are identical. That someone who looks like the Duggars in one area may be a racist does not mean that the Duggars are necessarily racist as well.

I personally know many people who have similar beliefs as the Duggars who are *not* racist. There are a growing number becoming visible among "seperatist" type conservatives (look up Voddi Baucham), and I've noticed even among my friends in the super-conservative anabaptist groups (similar to the Amish), as adoption has grown in favor, and as colonies have been established in other countries, interracial families are becoming more common. As well, there have always been folks who hold anti-contraception views, and particular ideas about modesty among people of color.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Anonymous has left a new comment on the post "Fact or Fiction":

"The point people continue to try to make though, is that compromising privacy and modesty by putting ones family on national television on a reality show is simply not very Godly. It flies in the face of all common sense, and I really don't think God himself would approve. "

So now it looks like someone is speaking for God.

Nancy said...

SuzannedeAZ - that poster was not speaking for God anymore than you are or the Duggars are when you (or they) claim to be certain what God wants. It's all interpretation - the Duggars is not superior to anyone else's. Obviously even within the Christian denominations there is a LOT of room for debate on the interpretation of the Bible. There is a really interesting book called "Interrupting Jesus" that discusses this at length.

bethany said...

i have never heard this about josh .. when did this happen? before he married anna? i never noticed is head shaved.. i just don't believe it , i think jim bob would of skinned him alive if he ever did such a thing..

Anonymous said...

Fiction: Anna is a teacher.

Fact: She has an online degree in Christian Education. She has never taught in a real school.

Anonymous said...

She has an online degree in Christian Education.

Do you from where she received her degree?

Cyn said...

@ Nancy The Duggars believe it because their DOCTOR told them that 20 some odd years ago. The quote is some where up in a previous post.

If the baby attaches and the lining continues to thin or stay thin can this NOT cause spontaneous abortions? Since when you get pregnant the walls THICKEN wouldn't then the thinning of the walls make it more likely to not carry it to term...

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse I'm simply trying to figure out why people keep swearing there is NO way it could happen, especially if a DOCTOR told them the reason they miscarried was because she continued to take the pill... if the first 2 things the pills do is 1) stop you from releasing an egg and 2) make the cervix thicken so the sperm can't get in...

See I'm allergic to all forms of Birth Control (we tried most of them and it's why I had my tubes tied after the 5th one) so I do not know what the damage could be if you continued to take the pill while preg so the third option makes perfect sense to me.

If it doesn't cause miscarriages after the first month what is the harm if you take it the entire 9-10 months?

im.in.PR@gmail.com said...

Uou can also assume, because they've said so, that the motive of sharing their faith and the gospel far outweighs any monetary compensation.

Have you ever heard them present the Gospel? No, because they don't. They showcase their family, and how their family lives., And they earn a nice paycheck for doing so. Nothing is wrong with that.

What I object to is the silly idea pandered about that proclaims(as you said) "they don't really make that much money..."

If they are doing all this work for TLC and selling out their children's privacy and they are not making a lot of money, then I believe that they will have to answer to God for not being good stewards of their children's time.

The Duggars are not preaching the Gospel on their show, they are showcasing their life. They SHOULD BE getting paid to do that.

Somebody's Nana said...

im.in.PR said: Have you ever heard them present the Gospel? No, because they don't. They showcase their family, and how their family lives., And they earn a nice paycheck for doing so. Nothing is wrong with that.

They have discussed their faith much more than most people are able to do on TV, and if you look at their website, it does present the gospel. The very fact that they are out there and allowing others to see their life as they live it for God is more than most people do.

I'm curious. What do you consider to be a "nice" amount of money? My comment that they didn't make much money was really just a reaction to the inflated amounts I see thrown around the web. I remember the numbers that were thrown around about J&K which were debunked, and assume that it is the same with the Duggars. If we had a definite number to use, I'm sure our discussion would be more relevant and less abstract.

My feeling of the money is that it certainly isn't enough to support them, and it isn't enough that they would be willing to sacrifice their values for it (not that I think they would).

im.in.PR@gmail.com said...

The degree of difficulty in taping the show probably isn't as high as most people think.

Au contraire, it's probably a lot more difficult than most people think. The New York Times Magazine published an article about what filming a reality show was like, behind the scenes.

And I suspect that filming has disrupted the Duggar family as well as the family in the article.

It isn't a walk in the park, that's for sure.

Somebody's Nana said...

Nancy said: Somebody's Nana - unless you know the Duggars (and know their every thought) you don't really know for a fact that the money doesn't influence them. They certainly use it - their lives have changed dramatically since TLC. Why don't they donate it all to charity if they are really only doing this to show their Godliness? I don't blame them for making money at all - but you seem quite certain that they don't care about it at all. I guess I think their actions seem to show something different.

I guess I don't see the changes that you see or don't attribute them to money. Their clothing is slightly updated, but that was bound to happen with teenage girls. Michelle went from having her hair in the 80's style (in which she married - quite common) to updating it slightly. So what? It's still long as her husband likes it, so she is still submissive to his desires in this area. They still cover themselves entirely, including some very conservative bathing suits, and the boys don't wear shorts. They still don't buy "new" and they still live thriftily.

As for donating the money... we have no evidence one way or another if they did. And if they did, they wouldn't say so, if their beliefs are followed. Biblical principles include not letting others know what you are doing with your money to glorify God.

I suspect that much of it has gone to fund their trips for missions. Having been on several trips myself, I know how expensive it can be. Multiply that by the number of family members and it adds up. In addition, I believe they would use some of this extra money to help others, quietly behind the scenes. Since they have always managed to support the family, I believe they probably look at this money (however much it is) as an extra blessing to be shared with others.

My suppositions are based on knowledge of the conservative Baptist beliefs because I was raised in them. My understanding and interpretation of what they do is an extension of that. You're right - I don't know what is in their mind, but until you show me proof to the contrary, I will continue to believe they are acting consistent with their faith.

Do I agree with every decision they make? No. But I don't see any of their decisions as violating Biblical principles at all. They are simply differences of opinion.

Anonymous said...

If the clothing changes was just a matter of the teenage girls updating their style I could understand. However, the little girls are also dressed in updated brand name clothing. If they hadn't changed their way of dressing then I think Michelle would still be dressing her little girls in the homemade prairie dresses.

Terra said...

Cyn said...

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse I'm simply trying to figure out why people keep swearing there is NO way it could happen, especially if a DOCTOR told them the reason they miscarried was because she continued to take the pill... if the first 2 things the pills do is 1) stop you from releasing an egg and 2) make the cervix thicken so the sperm can't get in...


********

The problem is that the Duggars are 100% sure that BC caused their miscarriage when there is no way to know and little evidence to support it. I'd hate to think some naive young woman watching this show choose not to take BC because they think there might be a risk of miscarriage. The Duggars are passing along misinformation.

Bri said...

I am a little disturbed by people saying the pill can't make you miscarry. It absolutely can.That's why in the commercials for birth control they tell you not to take it if there is a chance you are pregnant. My doctor told me last year if I thought I might be pregnant stop taking my pill immediately.If you stop early on in the pregnancy it's fine but if you go through one or more cycle it can harm the baby.

Anonymous said...

Don't you think televising ultrasounds and births is compromising their moral values? It would compromise my moral values, and my kids don't shout NIKE and are allowed to wear shorts and regular bathing suits!

Anonymous said...

We have no idea what the money earned from the show is spent on, so deciding that it is likely used to help others is just supposition. We do know that the kids have cell phones, basketball court, name brand clothing. We do not see money spent for books, education, any sort of learning. We do see trips, but TLC pays for those.

So, basically we see a greater number of material goods, but very little in the way of increased learning opportunities, as the result of the TLC money. That's unfortunate, from my perspective.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"Anonymous has left a new comment on the post "Fact or Fiction":

If the clothing changes was just a matter of the teenage girls updating their style I could understand. However, the little girls are also dressed in updated brand name clothing. If they hadn't changed their way of dressing then I think Michelle would still be dressing her little girls in the homemade prairie dresses. "

Big deal the little kids dress with brand names. Do you not understand that they buy their outfits at a second hand store. Maybe the older girls do not want to sew at this time in their lives making dresses for the little ones. Sewing is not cheap as I sew and it cost twice as much to sew as to buy the items new.

I go to the local Goodwill all of the time and buy almost new like brand name clothes for the same people I gift my sewing to. I do this cause sometimes it is just cheaper to dress buying the outfits as to make them.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"The problem is that the Duggars are 100% sure that BC caused their miscarriage when there is no way to know and little evidence to support it. I'd hate to think some naive young woman watching this show choose not to take BC because they think there might be a risk of miscarriage. The Duggars are passing along misinformation. "

The Duggars are passing information that they based their decision on not to use BC. That is their right. If someone wants to take their story and go with it as a basis for their decision that is their right also. I would say that most people who are making a decision to go on the pill would do some research beyond the Duggar's experience. There are so many options for BC that I doubt if the Duggars experience is going to make that big of a difference.

Somebody's Nana said...

Anonymous said:If the clothing changes was just a matter of the teenage girls updating their style I could understand. However, the little girls are also dressed in updated brand name clothing. If they hadn't changed their way of dressing then I think Michelle would still be dressing her little girls in the homemade prairie dresses.

I'm stumped. How is the recognition that it is possible to maintain your standards of modesty with updated clothing, and to buy it secondhand (maintaining your thriftiness) somehow a change in character or beliefs? The little girls still wear pants under the dresses because they don't understand ladylike behavior; the older girls wear pants under the dresses when they do something active.

I look at the broader issue of values and principles that are the basis for their actions rather than legalistic interpretations of those beliefs.

To Pill, or Not to Pill, That is the Question said...

Just to clear things up, here is what the Mayo Clinic's website states about using the pill during pregnancy (let's see if I can get this link thing to work):

<a href="http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/birth-control-pills/AN01662>Mayo Clinic</a>

As you'll notice, miscarriage is not a risk listed. I have personally been on birth control for 18 years and have read the warnings that comes with the various packs. I have never seen miscarriage listed as a risk.

The Duggars, while well meaning, are misinformed.

Anonymous said...

But showing knees and toes is OK? I have mentioned this before, but as a high school teacher, I hear a lot of what teenaged boys discuss, and TOES is one of those things. Many boys consider them extremely erotic. In the older shows, all the girls wore sturdy black shoes with white socks (which were very ugly, but kept the feet covered), which had the dual purpose of not showing erotic feet and were safer for foot development.

I would love for someone to explain why toes and knees are NOT erotic, but a pair of loose jeans or slacks is.

Anonymous said...

The point is that if "countenance" were the concern, there wouldn't be any effort to have makeup, hair perms, modern, updated clothing, etc.

Somebody's Nana said...

Anonymous said: Don't you think televising ultrasounds and births is compromising their moral values? It would compromise my moral values, and my kids don't shout NIKE and are allowed to wear shorts and regular bathing suits!

I don't think the fact that your children wear shorts or bathing suit is immodest, assuming your girls aren't wearing string bikinis! [smile] And the "Nike" thing is quite silly, I think. Some people may have thought I was advocating or defending it at one point, but I was simply explaining it from their perspective.

Depending on the arrangements for the filming and editing of the show, the televising of the ultrasounds/delivery could have been immodest or could have been just a bad decision. I personally don't think televising the ultrasounds and deliveries was a good choice. That you think is immodest and compromises their moral values is a valid perspective. However, it's a big jump from saying they made a huge blunder to saying they are giving up their moral compass. I don't think you personally were implying that, but I think others have.

Somebody's Nana said...

Anonymous said:We have no idea what the money earned from the show is spent on, so deciding that it is likely used to help others is just supposition. We do know that the kids have cell phones, basketball court, name brand clothing. We do not see money spent for books, education, any sort of learning. We do see trips, but TLC pays for those.

You're right, we have no idea what the money is spent on. You have your ideas; I have mine. In all cases, I try to assume the best of people until proven otherwise. Cell phones: could be cheap pay-by-the-minute ones; could be an all-inclusive family plan. In and of itself, not a problem. Basketball court: Great! Exercise for a large family. Well worth the investment, IF they even paid for it. Brand name clothing: others have already pointed out that they (bloggers) often buy name brand clothing at second hand/thrift shops.

I, too, would LOVE to see more books and education. However, we don't know that we have seen everything in their house. Michelle has said she doesn't like clutter and has put her books in a non-public place. Me, I show my books off. Difference of opinion in housekeeping styles, definitely. Does that mean I assume she has lots of books - not necessarily, but I don't assume they don't either, although their definition of "lots" and my definition are likely two very different things.

Reading choices for some of the girls? I'd hope for better. But I do know that my daughter who was an AP student and earned college credits in HS also had some very juvenile casual reading tastes. She just liked to "veg out" occasionally.

And I would LOVE for the girls to go to college or get some career training, especially the ones who show interest in midwifery. Within their circle of acquaintances, they could be busy for years with deliveries and such!

The truth is that ALL of us are speculating. And maybe I am a little contrary -- because if all of you were defending the Duggars, I would likely be pointing out the opposite perspective. Like I said elsewhere, I look at both sides of an issue. [smile]

Sally said...

The reason you should stop taking the pill when you get pregnant is because there are some studies that suggest that the pill can cause birth defects. However, there is no evidence to suggest that it can cause miscarriage.

Doctors give a lot of misinformation about the pill. Mine told me that it would take a month on the pill for it to be effective - and most of my friends have been told the same things by their doctors. But the pill manufacturers say that it is effective immediately if you start on the first day of your period, and effective after 7 days if you start at any other point.

I don't know if doctors give misinformation because they don't know better, or to push their own agenda, but there's a LOT of it out there about the pill, and if you compare facts to what many doctors are saying, you'll find that many times the doctors aren't right.

Ollie said...

I think the Duggar's change in clothing style could be attributed to a number of factors. First, the girls are older now and probably don't want to stand out as much in public. When I was young I loved wearing homemade prairie dresses, then I became a teenager and started getting more stares in public so I updated my wardrobe. Wanting to fit in is just a normal teenage impulse. Secondly, they probably do have more money now for clothes, but they also have less of an opportunity for hand me downs through the girls. With the older ones done growing and the younger ones more spaced out it just doesn't make sense to hand make quality clothes that could last several children when it's cheaper to buy second hand. Especially when it comes to clothing for small children you can usually find a very good selection of never worn or hardly worn brand name clothing. Sometimes just the cost of the cloth to make a garment is more than the cost of buying it like new in the thrift store, if it can't be used for multiple children it really isn't worth the time and money to make everyday clothes that will only be worn a few months. Third, maybe they just found a different retailer with a better stock of modest clothing. I try to dress modestly as well and with the few exceptions of times when I've been riding horses, camping, or doing manual labor on my aunt's ranch I have always worn skirts. Let me tell you, it can be next to impossible at times to find a reasonably priced selection of modest skirts or dresses. The internet has made it much easier in recent years, but then you have to guess on size and pay so much for shipping. Right now it is slightly easier to find skirts second hand because long skirts were in style briefly about three years ago or so, at least around here, so they are now in the resale shops. It's a lot easier to dress more modern when current mainstream fashion becomes more modest, if only temporarily.
Dressing in a more modern style does not mean a departure from the value of modesty, unless they were wearing exclusive brands that advertised themselves on the front of their shirts, which would be immodest but I haven't seen that yet. I think it's good for young women to see that they can dress in a fashionable yet God honoring way. That can be a real challenge and I think the Duggar girls have met it.

MomOfThree said...

Cyn said...

"The Duggars don't believe in interracial relationships, and believe it is best to stay within ones religion, race and age parameter".

Not in their book OR in any interview I have ever read...

..................................
On page 20 of their book, Jim Bob does in fact, state that he made a "commitment" when he was a teen during a church seminar, that he would not date anyone who was not a Christian or did not love Jesus as much as he did.

Apparently, the church he attended at the time did not "frown" on dating. By their own admission, we know that he and Michelle "dated" each other in the traditional sense.

Anonymous said...

There appears to be a couple of people who seem to know everything about the Duggars on here. Are there people on here that do know them that are answering for them? For example how do a couple of you know for sure that they are purchasing their clothes second hand still. They did at one time, but how do you know for sure that they still are? If people are going by what was written in a book it is quite possible they do not do the things they wrote about in their book anymore.

MomOfThree said...

Over the last few years, a good friend of mine had been a patient at one of the top fertility clinics in the country. She and her husband wound up there after seeing several doctors, none of whom could give them an answer to their issues, despite offering them the same procedure that others were having success with...in other words, this "new, innovative, top shelf clinic" was their last attempt to become pregnant. It didn't happen.

Their doctor there told them that it is his opinion (and the research that is now being conducted is backing this up) that women who are on the pill for long periods of time (years), without going off or having a pregnancy in between are finding it very difficult, if not impossible, to become pregnant when they choose to. This is not necessarily age related, he believes, but due to hormonal changes within the body that seem to be permanent. He said that over time he saw so many couples that could not conceive, with no conclusive reasons why, except that all the women seemed to have been on the pill for very long amounts of time, prior to trying to become pregnant. This prompted him to do studies, research and trial treatments.

My friend's egg and her husband's sperm were both healthy and viable and fertilization occurred
easily (within the lab) but when the fertilized eggs were implanted into the uterus, they didn't "stick" due to the uterus' lining not being conducive to a pregnancy. Trying to balance the hormone levels and trying again and again did nothing. My friend gave up. It is not something we talk about at all anymore.

So, it could very well be that the Christian doctor, all those years ago, counseled the Duggars correctly and Michelle's use of the pill did cause her miscarriage. It will be interesting to see in years to come if research does support this new theory. Just my own personal experience (second hand, that it is).

Bubbles said...

The Duggars believe that being on the pill caused a miscarriage, based on information given to them by a doctor at the time it happened (approximately 20 years ago). Who knows why the dr told them that, and it doesn't matter now anyway. Jim Bob & Michelle have never (to my knowledge) told anyone not to use birth control pills, they have just stated that THEY BELIEVE it caused their miscarriage, which is what led to their belief that they should not use any form of birth control.

Seriously, why is there controversy over this??

As for the televised ultrasounds & births, why is this considered immodest? There are no exposed body parts being shown. Shows like A Baby Story, Maternity Ward, and Deliver Me are all based on childbirth. I think it's helped many women to be more prepared for their own birth experiences to see that not any two are the same, and that sometimes things don't go as planned. Michelle has had hospital births, home births, vaginal births, c-sections, and VBACs! My guess is that people would accuse her of being hypocritical if she didn't share parts of the pregnancies & births on TV. But I am asking in sincerity why it is considered immodest because I don't understand.

Anonymous said...

A birth is a private experience, not one to be shared with the entire American viewing public.

Somebody's Nana said...

For example how do a couple of you know for sure that they are purchasing their clothes second hand still.

Mostly because they still show them shopping that way! They took Anna to buy baby things and there was significant uproar over the fact that they bought a used car seat. I don't see how anyone could speculate that they buy new for themselves and used for their first grandchild. :)

SuzanneDeAZ said...

"Anonymous has left a new comment on the post "Fact or Fiction":

There appears to be a couple of people who seem to know everything about the Duggars on here. Are there people on here that do know them that are answering for them? For example how do a couple of you know for sure that they are purchasing their clothes second hand still. They did at one time, but how do you know for sure that they still are? If people are going by what was written in a book it is quite possible they do not do the things they wrote about in their book anymore.


On the other hand how do you know they are NOT buying in second hand stores. It was not that long ago they went to a second hand place to buy baby things for their grandchild. Not long ago they got a bunk bed for one of their sons. They still buy used vehicles and make shift their own transportating by putting two busses together to make one. See all of this in recent episodes this season would give one a picture that they still buy second hand, not the other way around.

Somebody's Nana said...

But showing knees and toes is OK? I have mentioned this before, but as a high school teacher, I hear a lot of what teenaged boys discuss, and TOES is one of those things. Many boys consider them extremely erotic. In the older shows, all the girls wore sturdy black shoes with white socks (which were very ugly, but kept the feet covered), which had the dual purpose of not showing erotic feet and were safer for foot development.

I would love for someone to explain why toes and knees are NOT erotic, but a pair of loose jeans or slacks is.


Toes are not considered a sexual organ/body part and to my knowledge, no one has seen the Duggar girls' knees. If you carry your point a bit further, what do we do if we discover boys think noses are erotic? Cover the girls with a burka and ???

Pants emphasize the crotch and rear end of a young lady, which is why some people insist that girls only wear skirts, or very, very loose culottes.

Personally, I think they have a point, although I think they take it to the extreme. I've been behind young girls where I saw MUCH more than I wanted to see and wondered how their parents could let them out in public with such tight and minimal clothing. I find nothing wrong with properly fitted pants for girls/women.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

Bubbles asked:

"TV. But I am asking in sincerity why it is considered immodest because I don't understand."

I ask the same question. So far I have not received any answer that makes since. I do not see having their births on TV being immodest being that they did not show any private parts.

Anonymous said...

We know that Michelle bought a brand new and very very expensive layette for Jordyn. Why, for her "last" child, would she need brand new stuff? She had 17 other kids! I am sure there were blankets and so forth hanging around.

There was no "buy used and save the difference" there, or with the new bikes they have been purchasing recently. You'd think this family would have PLENTY of bikes, in every size!

Anonymous said...

Jinger has worn skirts right at her knee. When she walks, you can see her knee. Only Jana and Jill continue to wear the skirts to their ankles.

The point is that toes are as erotic as crotches to some boys. So, if the point is not to arouse sexual attention from boys in their modest attire, the Duggar girls are not succeeding. In the first place, some of their jean skirts are so tight that one can see the outline of their buttocks. And, their toes are always visible.

Truthfully, the only way that they could keep themselves totally modest and arouse no attention at all (besides being off TV) is to wear a burka. I don't mean that in a sarcastic way either. At least with a burka, they are fully covered, head to toe, and there is none of that name brand clothing or modern influence. And no man or boy is ever going to have a NIKE moment seeing a girl/woman in a burka.

I am not for dehumanizing women in these ways, but it really is a logical step for the Duggars, if they are serious about their modesty, because shorter skirts, tighter shirts and flip flops simply do not keep the arousal from boys/men at bay.

Anonymous said...

Fact: The Duggar women state they believe in dressing modestly.

Also Fact: The Duggar family photo currently shown on their official family website clearly shows JoyAnna (age 11?) on the front row, sitting in a very UN-lady like pose.

Really, at that age, she should know that a young lady sits with her knees together.

She's not a preschooler after all. A little modesty-in-action would be nice.

Anonymous said...

This is the fact or fiction thread and it is fiction to say they only buy second hand. Sure they buy second hand that is a fact, but it is not a fact to say they only buy second hand and never buy anything brand new. No one would know that as fact unless they personally knew them or asked them.

It just seems some people are so quick to defend the Duggars. I just don't understand getting upset of defensive over people we don't know.

Maybe their way of life hits close to home with some people and they take the comments personally, if so I apologize.

Anonymous said...

Toes are not considered a sexual organ/body part and to my knowledge, no one has seen the Duggar girls' knees. If you carry your point a bit further, what do we do if we discover boys think noses are erotic? Cover the girls with a burka and ???


Thank you!! I have heard this discussion before about the toes being erotic and I am just dumbfounded!! Really, really, people, now the Duggar girls shouldn't show their toes, like don't have enough restrictions to worry about! Burkas for everybody!!

Somebody's Nana said...

Anonymous said:Also Fact: The Duggar family photo currently shown on their official family website clearly shows JoyAnna (age 11?) on the front row, sitting in a very UN-lady like pose.

Really, at that age, she should know that a young lady sits with her knees together.


Really? I disagree! She's still a young girl, and she's dressed casually. If you look closely, she's wearing cowboy boots and some kind of leggings under the skirt. Sitting like a lady with cowboy boots on is almost impossible. LOL Let her be a bit of a tom-boy at her age. She'll grow up soon enough. Now, if one of the older girls were sitting like that, I'd agree with you.

Anonymous said...

The point is that toes are as erotic as crotches to some boys.

I can see it now. The coming trend in erotica, "ToeBoy Magazine." (Instead of Playboy.) All thanks the the Duggar girls flipflops!

klass said...

If the clothing changes was just a matter of the teenage girls updating their style I could understand. However, the little girls are also dressed in updated brand name clothing. If they hadn't changed their way of dressing then I think Michelle would still be dressing her little girls in the homemade prairie dresses.


Actually, in the buddy system the older girls are probably picking out the clothing for the younger ones.
And so, the change in their personal style can be seen on the clothing of the younger kids too.

Anonymous said...

Obviously, the Duggars only claim to want to keep arousal at bay. Otherwise they would cover the girls head to toe with baggier clothing (not the tight shirts they currently wear, which clearly outline their breasts).

Midwest Mom said...

Somebody's Nana, I agree with the poster regarding JoyAnna's immodest sitting position in the Duggar family photo.

Really....JoyAnna is 11 years old in the photo. Girls are old enough to have menstrual cycles at that age, so it's not too much to expect that she sit like a lady with her knees together, regardless of whether she's wearing "leggings" or cowboy boots.

Kara said...

I am ultra-conservative and wear long skirts and the whole bit am in my 20s... and so do all my friends. And we ALL wear flip-flops, and we swim barefoot with swimsuits by Wholesome Wear or similar companies. Never, ever, has a a guy hit on any of us or commented on our toes, whether secular or religious. If you dress modestly enough I think guys respect you and get the "hands off" message pretty quick. The Duggar's point is that they make the focus their faces, and that's what guys look at (unless their shirt is too tight). Maybe some men have foot fetishes or something, but I know many more men who find a girls eyes to be very "sexy" and we do not cover those! I think the Duggar girls are a good combination of attractive and modest, but I guess that's a one sided comment since they dress like me :)

im.in.PR@gmail.com said...

Obviously, the Duggars only claim to want to keep arousal at bay. Otherwise they would cover the girls head to toe with baggier clothing (not the tight shirts they currently wear, which clearly outline their breasts).

I hate to say it, but I agree with you. While the older girls are not quite to the cousin Amy point of showing all your cleavage to the world, they are certainly moving into the very tight shirts and tight skirts look.

Even Michelle is starting to worry more about her looks, wearing makeup and younger looking hairstyles.

Somebody's Nana said...

im.in.PR I hate to say it, but I agree with you. While the older girls are not quite to the cousin Amy point of showing all your cleavage to the world, they are certainly moving into the very tight shirts and tight skirts look.


I've missed the last couple of shows, but saw some recent pictures and wondered about that myself.

Anonymous said...

That's part of the contradiction and hypocrisy I see. I think that the girls' shirts are becoming decidedly tighter, and their skirts much shorter. There is also a greater emphasis on hair style and makeup.

It just doesn't fit with what Jim Bob and Michelle said in the earlier shows about modesty and countenance. If they really want to be modest, go for it, and ensure baggier, less attractive and revealing clothing. At least that would be consistent with what they claim to believe.

Kaekae said...

It just doesn't fit with what Jim Bob and Michelle said in the earlier shows about modesty and countenance. If they really want to be modest, go for it, and ensure baggier, less attractive and revealing clothing. At least that would be consistent with what they claim to believe.
So modest must equal ugly? and I have never seen a Duggar girl (except Amy) wear anything that someone could call revealing.
skirts to the knee (usually longer) and the girls covered. Yes we know they have breasts -but we knew that anyway because they are women. But I have never seen them dressed in such a way to draw attention to their breasts.
the idea that a polo shirt (which isn't skin tight) and a thigh length skirt could be considered immodest, is completely foreign to me.
Do I think they always make the right choices in clothes? No - straight skirts at DollyWood come to mind and that pink striped polo needs to go before Jordyn is stuck with it. (I found it a thrift store last month and was tempted to buy it but it was a size too small).
The Duggars could be called alot of things but immodestly dressed isn't one of them.

Kara said...

I agree that the Duggar girls seems to be more into make-up, hair, and fashion, but I at the same time have been pleasantly surprised to not see Anna doing the same (except for the birth). In the clips of her and Josh she seems to remain to be the most modest and has continued her hair and make-up routines from the beginning and isn't very showy it all, but still a pretty girl.I'm glad she isn't trying to change for Josh or the show.

Anonymous said...

Kara - I have to say Anna is the one I've noticed making the most changes, actually. In an episode where she and Josh were getting ready to go to the Today Show (I believe), they were seen walking down the street with Anna in a green (from what I remember) skirt that barely reached her knees. I may have the color wrong, but I remember the length of the skirt vividly, because it was the shortest skirt I've ever seen a Duggar girl wear, and it was the first shorter skirt I had noticed. By the time they got to the Today Show, Anna was dressed in something different and wore her hair differently, but in the earlier part of that episode, her skirt was certainly above her knees when sitting.

Marybeth said...

i think the reason the girls are getting more into fashion hair and make-up is because they are getting older...when the specials started they were 12-13 years old...now they are late teens and 20...so of course their styles are going to change...they are very open about being "modest modern" in their appearance and there is nothing wrong with that. I am an Chassidic Jew and my Chassidic Rabbi's wife wears tie-dye, but we still wear long sleeves, long skirts, and cover our hair. We also get our eye brows waxed, our nails done and wear make-up. But we are even more modest than the Duggars are--but there's nothing in the Bible or the Torah that says we can't look nice and presentable. We don't have to look like Laura Ingalls.

Anonymous said...

If I may make a comment about modesty and its subsequent arousal of desire in men...

I had two male friends. One went off to the Middle East on a business contract, the other to Papua New Guinea.

Now, where my friend was in the Middle East, the women were totally covered except for their eyes and hands. My friend in New Guinea, on the other hand, daily saw women whose breasts were expose and who only wore a sarong-type garment aroun their hips.

These two men returned to the US with very different stories. The one who had been in the Middle East was about to experience desire by simply seeing a woman's hand exposed above the wrist. The guy who had gone to New Guinea later told me that breasts were no longer a sexual object to him and having seen them all day, every day, he saw them simply as a part of the human body, no different than any other part.

My point is, what is modest or not is completely cultural. If the Duggars decided that anyone who did not wear an eyepatch over their left eye was exposing themselves to the opposite sex, they would look pretty strange in today's America. However, if everyone else thought so too, we'd all be walking around with eye patches and woe betide the woman caught out in public without her eyepatch.

mlou said...

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but is it true the Duggars do not believe in adoption because of the sins of their parents?

If this is true then shame on them. They claim that every child is a blessing. I agree,I believe God places everyone on this planet for a reason. I would hate to think that they only see biological children this way.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

It is Bill Gothard who believes that one should not adopt because of the sins of the parents. The Duggars do not believe everything Bill Gothard teaches.

I have heard JB talk about adopting so I doubt if he believes this.

Marybeth said...

The Duggars do believe in adoption. In the episode where the go to El Salvador he states that he would not be at all surprised if He or his children adopt from that country in the future.

Mrs P said...

Not all ATI members are against adoption and there ARE members that have adopted. I know one family that have adopted 4 children and are members of ATI. It was not even brought up to them when they applied. No one even asked about it.

Mrs P

Another Opinion ! said...

Somebody's Nana said...

Things that I DO NOT BELIEVE to be true:

1. JB controls Michelle NOT!
2 The teens have no outside activities NOT!
3. The Duggars do not trust their children NOT!
4. The teens raise the smaller children NOT!
5. They buy new clothing NOT!
6. They make a lot of money for each show NOT!
7. They wouldn't be debt free if not for the show, so it's unrealistic for them to expect their children can remain debt-free NOT!
8. JB didn't speak to Josh until the night before the wedding NOT!
9. The Duggars are racist NOT!
10. The Duggars are narcissists NOT!

... there are more...
*******************


And now my opinion:
Things I believe to be TRUE about the Duggars:
1. Their daughters do an *inordinate* amount of housework and childrearing of their siblings
2. They are ALL undereducated.
3. They are insular.
4. They are hypocritical in life choices (ex: no TV but making their living FROM being on TV)
5. Michelle is completely one-dimensional.
6. The children have little individuality and no privacy.
7. They do not prepare balanced meals, and probably do not eat balanced meals. Ergo, they do not feed their children a balanced diet.
8. They did NOT buy everything used and "Save the difference." Look at their house (they would not have except for TLC's involvement and don't pretend otherwise), look at their NEW appliances , their kitchen all stainless and better than most peoples' kitchens! Humongous newly constructed house, multiple, new washers and dryers.
9. The mother does not interact much with any of her children over the age of 18 months.
10. They are snobby in their beliefs (this one JMO) But true. IE: they are the chosen ones, nonbelievers and secular people are bad, The "Creation Museum" being presented to their children with NO alternative theory being presented. (and you KNOW there was nothing else presented at Michell's school of the dining room table)
11. et al

Beth said...

Hi Cyn--the research you posted about the pill is correct, but there's one part about your interpretation that I have to (gently!) correct. It's true that the birth control pill prevents a fetus from implanting and growing in the uterine lining, but that's not a miscarriage that anyone would ever know about. The point that the fertilized egg--the embryo that will turn into the fetus--needs to implant in the uterine lining is generally less than 72 hours after fertilization, way before it's a fetus or before a woman would have a clue she's pregnant. It's in this way that the pill prevents you from ever getting pregnant and, in the very rare case you ovulate while on the pill, it prevents you from ever even knowing if an egg became fertilized. If you had a fertilized embryo and it was unable to attach to the uterine wall, you would never have any idea or sign about it. A miscarriage that a person would actually notice would be much farther along in the process, and it would have already succeeded at implanting at that earlier stage, at which point the pill is irrelevant to its development--there would have to be another reason for it's failure to survive if it miscarries.
I think that, while the Duggars do erroneously say that the miscarriage was caused by the pill, really their main point about that experience is closer to a feeling--they feel that the miscarriage was a punishment or communication from God that they should not be trying to control or interfere with the number of children he wants them to have. I'm not going to comment on that religious sentiment because I would probably misunderstand it.
I hope this is interesting to you! Have a great day.

Cyn said...

When a woman has thin endometrium, it means the lining of the uterus is insufficient to hold an egg once it becomes fertilized and is ready to implant in the womb and grow. Should the egg manage to embed, it frequently is lost in a miscarriage resulting from intrauterine instability and a lack of tissue to hold the growing fetus. Thin endometrium may also be a factor in poor placental development as well, which again, often ends in miscarriage.

If this isn't what the pill does when it "thins" the lining what DOES it do?

If the pill keeps the lining thin instead of allowing it to thicken it will usually end in a miscarriage. (They make medications for this condition) Some as late as 6 weeks which would be in the second month which is when Michelle had hers.

CAN this happen?? Yes!
Is it RARE? I am not sure. (I find to many blogs where women have been told this by their doctors, but very few Docs blog about it or write articles about this part of what the pill does.
But I do know it's not IMPOSSIBLE.

I do not know if this is what happened to Michelle. And yes I think they are relying more on feeling, but it started with facts presented to them from THEIR medical doctor who was there, and treating Michelle.

Digger said...

I haven't read all the posts here but I want to put in my two cents about the Josh molestation rumors. I have been following the Duggars for years and have been on some of the early boards.

I have no idea who started the rumor but I think it's a load of crap. I know one young woman who called the Duggars and they invited her to visit them. She stayed a weekend with the family over July 4th. This woman ended up stealing Jinger's diary and attempted to sell it on ebay. I saw it on ebay and reported it. She was confronted and eventually returned it.

This woman had some serious mental problems and bad mouthed the Duggars a lot after her visit. She even said she was hoping to get Josh alone to jump him. LOL I wouldn't be surprised if she is the one who started the molestation rumors.

I've always wondered why Josh's head was shaved for that one scene when they moved. Who knows? Maybe just a bad haircut.

The Duggars were pulled from the Oprah program after Oprah wanted to surprise the girls with a free education to learn to become midwives. The Duggars turned her down. I guess Oprah felt the Duggar girls were to oppressed and couldn't celebrate this family. The show was to be a mother's day special.