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16. Please refrain from beating the dead horses such as Josh's years ago expressed interest in law school. If the Duggars have moved on, so should we.
2. No online petitions.
3. Do not be rude about the children or call them names. Commenting on the behaviour that we have seen is acceptable, but no name calling.
4. Do not refer to calling CPS or use the term child abuse unless we something that actually is abusive.
5. Watch profanity.
6. Don't tell the moderators how to run the blog.
7. Be careful about boards on boards and please don't discuss or provide links to other Duggar boards.
8. No diagnosing mental/medical conditions.
9. No posting addresses.
10. Along with not being rude don't tell other people how to think, act, or behave - don't try to tell other people what to do or not do.
11. No using the kids' names or moderators' as your screen name.
12. Comments including "I'm sure you won't print this" will never be printed.
13. No unsolicited recaps. We are not recapping the Duggar shows.
14. The administrators are not able to verify the identity of people who comment here. Believe what you choose to believe.
15. Please use proper grammar, spelling, capitalizations and punctuations in your comments. No instant message type speaking.
16. Please refrain from beating the dead horses such as Josh's years ago expressed interest in law school. If the Duggars have moved on, so should we.
528 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 528 of 528Anonymous 6:17pm: "there is so much of these people's lives we are missing (which is a good thing! They shouldn't have EVERYTHING broadcast)."
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If the producers have time to show a dying Grandpa Duggar in his wheelchair and death bed, then I think they have time to show the children playing quietly & imaginatively without rough-housing.
If there is as much "structured play" in the Duggar home as some commenters state, then JB&M should make sure the producers include a good deal of it in the episodes.
The producers can take out all the TMI moments (conception dates, no-kissing before marriage, pre-marital "sex talk" between JB & Josh, gender announcements on the Today show, menstrual cycle calendar discussion, NIKE at Dollywood) and replace it with all that calm, structured, age-appropriate play that is evidently so prevalent in the Duggar household. How difficult would that be ?
Cyn said, "They wrote the BOOK to answer these types of questions and to fill in what ISN'T shown on film."
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Why do the Duggars feel it's necessary to "fill in" what isn't shown on film?
Is nothing private in that family?
And since JimBob is the savvy businessman that he is, he gets money from the sale of the book.
Therefore, the motives for the writing of the book are less than 100% pure, otherwise the book would be on the "free" table at every bookstore in the country.
Here is a PARTIAL list of the episodes to show the kids not only playing with toys INSIDE the house, I also found shots of where they are playing 'pretend play' where they store at least some of of the toys and other things people were asking about but couldn't seem to remember having seen....
Duggars on Ice Shows:
1)The Lockers they use to store some of their toys and stuff in (around the 5.40 mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZerM8xbJv_s
2) Same link as above also shows at the very end Johannah throwing one of her dolls to the floor (plastic head and cloth body looks age appropriate to me, come to think of it throwing it in the floor is age appropriate too LOL)
3) Part three of that episode on Youtube Shows both Johanna AND Jennifer playing with dolls. (dolls are pretend play) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5ZjVTt6DLo
4) When Big Families Collide part one shows:
One of the boys running around playing with a rifle (and sliding on the tiles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrlhWHKzY5Y
5) Same episode same Link
Also shows the fold up play house and the smaller kids boys AND girls playing in it. (GASP the boys are wearing frilly aprons and no one it making them take it off and play the MALE role, though Johannah is trying to strangle one with the apron...)
6)Justin having a violin Lesson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re8cHC2hAxk
7) Cheaper by the Duggars- Part 1 at the VERY beginning right after they do the intro you see the Duggar kids playing with cars (I really can't tell you if they are matchbox cars or not though ;) )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2BjTw_YsHo
Not long after that you hear Michelle call Jediah to gather the laundry...
6) Same episode same link as above when they are pulling Johannah out of the van they hand her her doll.
While you are on that link the person that said they were not using that soap in those heavy duty washers.... This is the episode they show us the soap recipe and it's after they got the new big washers and dryers. Why bother showing us this now and telling us they only started making the soap a year ago, if they weren't using it now, in those washers?
7)Duggars fly the coup Part Two Shows:
2 of the boys are pretending, and reenacting the plane crashing into the Hudson. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsINDxT_OSs
8)In the same episode above the Duggar girls are babysitting, and using crafts to keep them entertained They were carrying bags into the house with them so I personally am assuming they brought them with them (all of those crafts are Dollar Tree items is why I would assume The Duggar girls bought them. I sell them on eBay is why I recognized them) I could be wrong and am quite willing to let this one slide if it wasn't what you wanted as to the Duggars doing crafts.
9)Same Episode as above part 3 starts with Jennifer having fallen asleep coloring at the bar, when Jimbob picked her up she was clutching the crayon bag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR04mYNMr1g
I remember there being an episode where the little ones were getting foam/cardboard violins to start learning how to hold them but 5 hours (I kept getting interrupted), and countless episodes later I can't find it... I wasn't going in order either I was just looking for episodes where I KNEW they were home.
Tomorrow I may go looking for it again but no more today LOL.
"Discussing softening of the cervix while in a child bearing class again I do not see the issue, airing the discussion on TV was TLC's choice."
Yes, TLC chose to air it, but they were only able to do so because the Duggars chose to allow TLC to film their lives. The Duggars hold the ultimate responsibility here and to try to blame TLC is a cop-out.
"The Duggars have said they dress the way they do because they want people interest drawn to their FACE. They do not want to 'defraud' people or in other words make them think about sex. What I can't figure out is how does breastfeeding an infant (or pumping milk), giving birth, or seeing when mom is starting on a calender have to do with sex? OR making people think about sex.
(I really would like the answer to this please)"
Yes, the Duggars talk about drawing attention to their faces while they're talking about MODESTY. They obviously believe that modesty means dressing in a way that will not attract sexual attention. I agree with this and strive to dress this way. HOWEVER, to say that definition of modesty is complete is way off base. Modesty also includes keeping private things private, even if they're not sexual. For example, there's nothing sexy about having a bowel movement but we all know to keep it private. Likewise, I personally believe details of one's sex life with one's spouse (i.e. - date of contraception) should be kept private, as should giving birth and breastfeeding. Having these events filmed and aired on national TV is NOT modest. Also, modesty means having a humble spirit. The Duggars are not humble. Jim Bob is constantly boasting about how big his family is and how wonderful they are because they do things like "court" instead of "date." That's not modest. They plastered themselves all over TV to be an encouragement to people. I want to be an encouragement to people as well, but I have enough of a humble spirit (read: modesty) to acknowledge that I make lots of mistakes and have sin in my life and that I shouldn't invite TV cameras into my life to show the whole world how wonderful I am.
I guess the biggest thing that bothers me from the standpoint of a Christian is that the Duggars' style of modesty is a legalistic set of rules having to do with how long one's skirt can be and whether or not one's shoulder can be seen. There is no spirit of humility about them.
-Emily
JB and M could encourage others by ensuring that their children show respect for other people's property. Where are the adults when the little ones are scraping tables over hard-wood floors? It makes me cringe to see the lack of care-taking of the house they are living in.
Pimping out DYING grampa surely is not inspirational and is beyond the beyond.
Personally I'd rather fight a pack of pit bulls.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ohio, I totally agree. I was appalled by this display. I just can't take much of what JB and M say seriously because they frequently contradict themselves and really seem to lack the ability to see the big picture. I know there is the argument that they have a TLC contract, but contracts are broken all the time. I truly believe they are doing damage to their family. Let's take the religion out of it. Reality TV is not kind to families, as has been shown over and over again. I personally think JB needs to man up, extract his cranium from his you know what and start focusing on the well being of all of his children.
Can't See Sheep, loved your comment-makes me proud to be a nurse! I can tell you, I would have been very vocal about not letting the cameras or all those kids at Josie's bedside. Hell hath no fury like a nurse who's patient is at risk!!
Regarding the classroom aspect---only the younger ones are around the table learning from Mom, or now their "substitute" teacher, doing their workbooks, etc. The older students do online school in another part of the house entirely. The day Joy was trying to study with a younger brother bothering her was a day Mom was at the doctor.
I too remember there being a large "fort" being built in the main part of the house with all blankets/sheets and the couches. I also remember Johanna dressing up with a cape. I've seen many of them coloring, but you have to remember that watching a table full of kids colouring is not "exciting" tv from a director's standpoint, even if it happens in their house every day. It comes down to whomever is editing the show and it would seem that the editor wants "action" shots and that means lots of running around.
I agree with Cyn on the "we can kiss you can't" situation. Taken in context, their son had just arrived home with their new daughter-in-law to be and they were plainly giddy and excited. They were being playful and having fun with them. "We can kiss, you can't *giggle* *giggle*" It wasn't a directive it was in jest.
One thing we all need to remember is the Duggars as a whole often forget the cameras are even there unless they are talking directly into them. I use the example of Michelle and JimBob talking about the conception date of Josie. A) they were surprised at the age of the child as she didn't think she was that far along and B) they were speaking to Josh and Anna, not to the camera, the camera just happened to be there--yes he may have known, but the context is still the same. And I believe the conversation was that of married couple to married couple. For those who think "too much info" I'm the same way about the date my daughter was conceived---the day the plane landed in London after being apart from my husband for 2 months. I tell it all the time.
Some say that Michelle got pregnant on purpose, I doubt it, considering the conception date was Father's Day--to me that's a couple in love making love on a special day. Even a woman who's had 18 kids has the right to believe when she hits 42 that she may not conceive so easily at some point.
We practice the same belief and have just 1 child. You just never know what you'll be blessed with.
I am beginning to wonder how much of what is in the book is actually what happens or is more of what they would like to happen or what they used to do because you just don't see it. Granted we don't see much in the short amount of time that is on tv but there has to be hours of footage that didn't make the cut.
You would think that there has to be something in that footage that would show some of what Michelle actually wrote in the book. Kids will be kids and run around and be crazy occasionally but that is all that seems to be seen. If there was a balance of Michelle telling her children to have pick up time and seeing them do it or getting a toy our and putting it away along with the rowdiness then I don't think people would point it out as much.
I do not have perfect behaving children but I can say that my children never did run around and act like those children do. You can have many children togethr and if there is structure then the running wildly doesn't happen, if there isn't any structure for those kids then what happens is what we see, kids just running around wildly just out of control.
One more thing about the Duggar's book. It has a publication date of 2008 and I am sure they were writing for months maybe a year or so before the book was published. I just don't think we can take what they say in the book to be what they do anymore, because it just doesn't appear to be that way in what they do on the show. It as just been within the last year and a half that I have really noticed the differences and that book was written and published at least 2 years ago.
I actually think that what Michelle talks about in her book is what she and Jim Bob did when they were actually parenting their older kids. The younger kids aren't being parented by their parents as much as they are by their older siblings.
@Midwest Mom: Since I'm not a regular viewer of the Duggars, I was unaware the "Nike!" thing occurred at DOLLYWOOD.
Isn't it a bit of an oxymoron taking the Duggar family to Dolly Parton's amusement park, since Dolly Parton herself would HAVE to deserve several "Nike!!" warnings?
Cyn, are you somehow connected to "19 & Counting"? You seem to have much emotion invested in the Duggars and their portrayal on tv. Just curious.
What is the connection between dressing and 'defrauding' people??? Why is dressing in a normal (NOT stripper-like for those of you already getting ready to send a pro-Duggar zinger) 'defrauding' anyone? Am I to assume that my dressing in current attire is 'inviting' others to join me for sex? If so, wow, now THERE's a leap of faith (not to mention a jump to judgment).
@Anonymous: ""The Duggars have said they dress the way they do because they want people interest drawn to their FACE. They do not want to 'defraud' people or in other words make them think about sex. They obviously believe that modesty means dressing in a way that will not attract sexual attention."
Anonymous, I totally agree with your larger definition of 'modesty' and also agree that it is anything BUT modest for the Duggars to have all these negative assumptions (judgments) about people in the larger world - i.e., we dress in current styles 'to attract sexual attention' and, on this basis, consider themselves morally superior to those of us in the real (sinner) world.
IMO the Duggars hold up so many meaningless standards and then define these standards as the epitome of ethics.
Be kind. Be honest. Treat everyone as you wish to be treated. Period. The End. That pretty well covers ethical behavior IMO.
Abstaining from premarital kissing and dressing like Holly Hobbie dolls is meaningless in life (and actually DRAWS ATTENTION - the very thing they claim to work against), and assuming these things define their concept of morality as superior is, once again, a monumental show of arrogance and judgment rather than the modesty they are always blowing their horn about.
Thanks for pointing out those clips, Cyn. I still don't think those show much imagination, creativity etc. There's no pretend feeding of the doll, playing mommy, dressing the dolly etc., just carrying (or throwing) her around.
Would you agree, Cyn, that the younger children exhibit very rambunctious behavior? I think it looks like they have entirely too much unstructured time, and that's why they run around so much. Children thrive on structure and routine, and while there seemed to be much of this in the old days in the old house, that all seems to have flown by the wayside since the show has gone from specials to weekly.
I agree that the little kids (and there are LOTS of them) need a playroom. The gameroom is fun for the older kids, but the little ones don't play pool etc.
Also, the way they dragged that table around on those beautiful wood floors in the rental house was just plain pure disregard for someone else's property. I would have been FURIOUS if that happened to my rental house (if I had one LOL!), or if my children showed so little respect.
Another RN said,"Can't See Sheep, loved your comment-makes me proud to be a nurse! I can tell you, I would have been very vocal about not letting the cameras or all those kids at Josie's bedside. Hell hath no fury like a nurse who's patient is at risk!!"
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So true! RN's would be disinclined to risk the wellbeing and dignity of their patients just so TLC could splice together their conception of a compelling, dramatic 'family' episode.
Too bad JB&M don't incorporate these higher ethical standards into their convoluted religious beliefs.
@Anonymous: I agree that it is the antithesis of modesty to consider one's life and belief system SUCH an incredible display of morality, that you are called to display your life on TV as an example and an encouragement to others.
A truly modest person is more likely to share your opinion: I do the best I can but am no better than anyone else, so please don't set me up as your model of morality.
Maybe we don't see the kids playing with toys because the manufacturers aren't paying for product placement, or the Duggars haven't accepted boxes of free toys and clutter just to show them on TV.
Remember the constant product placement on another family reality show?
I'll bet it's a TLC thing. And I think it's a lot classier in that situation to just not show the kids playing with toys, rather than blur out the labels, like a slap in the face to the companies that won't "pay to play."
This isn't a documentary. Every move, word, activity, and item is scripted as much as possible, with the goal being as much profit as possible for the network. The Duggars and their possessions and lives are just props. There's so much we don't know.
Deanna said...We do not see Duggar homeschooling, at the dining room table, as we did in the old days. There is no structure visible at all anymore.
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That's very true.
I recall an episode where the younger boy, James, was "homeschooling" while Michelle was breastfeeding a baby on the sofa...James continued to argue with Michelle about whether or not he had schoolwork to do, Michelle took him by the hand, led him upstairs to retrieve said work, then had him sit down by her on the sofa.
Hardly a structured school environment or one where discipline (i.e. not talking back to your mom) is enforced.
Anonymous at 1:20 p.m. said:
This isn't a documentary. Every move, word, activity, and item is scripted as much as possible, with the goal being as much profit as possible for the network. The Duggars and their possessions and lives are just props. There's so much we don't know.
* * * *
I most definitely agree with you in believing that this show is very much scripted. Yes, there are moments here and there of candor, but most of the time, it's designed to fit a specific framework.
We are supposed to see the Duggars as a large conservative family who lives debt free by the application of a few simple rules. The children never sass mom or dad, and apparently never disagree amongst themselves either! The little children might be a bit rambunctious at times, but isn't that just "kids being kids"?
While they may have strong religious beliefs, they are also the sort that "don't judge" and believe in "live and let live."
That's the story line and we're supposed to think this is a reality.
Interesting that we don't see Michelle leaving her premature baby to go protest a mini mart getting a license to sell beer and wine. Perhaps because that a) would make her look like she thought this meeting was more important than being with her very premature infant; and b) it doesn't quite match up with the "live and let live" motto. While is certain parts of society, this would seem quite fine -- most of us don't think having a mini mart that sells beer to adults of legal age is such a horrifying thought that we'd leave our preemie in the hospital so we could speak out against it.
The children are definitely coached in how to respond to certain questions. Example: An episode where Michelle and then several children were asked about each parent having one on one time with each child during the day.
The children's answers, especially the younger kids -- were almost word for word exactly alike. All announced solemnly that yes, mom and dad do try their best to make one-on-one time with each child. We, the viewing audience, thus reassured that somehow this is accomplished (another thing we are never shown on the show, btw). It's about as real as those "days out" the Gosselins took with each of their 8 kids.
It's a package, meant to appeal to a broad audience and advertisers love the wholesome image as a backdrop for their products.
@ Ohio no I a not connected in ANY way to the Duggars I have never even met them... I do o the other hand tend to take the side of the underdog in any debate...
Gathering the data, organizing into a cohesive report, and then publishing it is ALSO good training for my job that starts in March.
My last and pretty much MAIN reason is I just like the Duggars and when people start disseminating misinformation about them it gets my blood up... But The Duggars are not the only thing I follow blog wise I'm also on several religious blogs as well defending the right of OTHERS to believe what they want to believe.
Regarding the book, it was mostly written as a history of their family, not how their family currently works today. I speak as someone who owns the book and has read and reread it several times. It begins with how they met and moves through their lives as each child is born and how they add each new organizational skill, homeschooling technique, etc; how they moved from house to house, purchased new properties, changed jobs, bought businesses, JimBob's runs for public offices, and their involvement with TLC.
So in a sense, yes you are right, it doesn't really involve how they run their home NOW exactly, but how they've run it and come to run it. How they would like it to be run and how they wish it to be run. It's like the documentary where she points to the schedule on the wall and says "it would be a miracle if everything went according to plan, but at least we have a goal; we know where we're going."
The book reads more like a time line. I must admit as an English major it can be a difficult read, because they wrote it side by side and switch identities with pronouns "I (JimBob)" and "I (Michelle)" and go back and forth that way. However as the book gets to the end, it does come to their current state of affairs and how they try to accommodate more kids and kids entering their later teens.
As to why they wrote the book, I think I would have done the same thing. I can imagine it's hard going places and having people come up to you and having to answer the same questions over and over--even when they weren't on TV, in the first special the kids spoke of how they were asked the same questions over and over again.
As for the money making on the book? I'm not sure they made much as I've seen him give away stacks of copies, it was printed through a Christian printer, and the price was unbelievably cheap.
@Cyn, not that my opinion matters to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of life, but I can definitely respect you for that. More power to you!
Cyn.
I am almost positive. the volinclip is from "14 kids and pregnant again".
If you want. I can give you the yt link :).
Hananh
I hardly doubt anyone sees debt as a gift. not all of us ar forunate to have rental properties and cell phone towers. Debt is sometimes a necessity to have ecessities-(ghees maybe this should be in a book of quotes)I think when he says debt free Jimbob means they just dont owe for a house or credit card. This doesnt include doc bills.
I usually dont watch reality TV so have no clue about Desparate Wives of Orange County. Shallow can have many meanings. Im sure their kids will have many more choices than the Duggars.And I would rather see woman who has some bit of contorl over her life even if it means tanning salons and massage parlors.
How does anyone know if meaning debt free for the Duggars does not include doctor bills. Did the Duggars say they owe doctor bills? We can not assume that because the baby is in ICU that their insurance is not taking care of the bill or that they do not have the funds to pay for the part that is not covered by insurance.
Also the comment about not being fortunate to have rental property sounds like the poster is implying that the Duggars are fortunate having means to pay their bills. Yes, they are fortunate, but it is not fortunate by "luck", as they have this means of income due to their own labor and investment. It was not given to them they earned it. They were wise in their younger years to work hard and invest their money in property.
@ Hannah
They were in the boys dorm room in the new house... The violins were either paper or foam I can't remember which. I remember thinking that was a neat way to teach them without them breaking a real one. They were teaching a toddler GIRL and a slightly older boy so that lets out anything from the first specials as well.
I'll look again in a few days.... Duggar fan or not I can only watch so many of the shows before I start getting a headache, and I watched I know 40 clips last night looking for the ones I found that wouldn't ALSO start a whole 'nother argument on something else.
roddma said...
I hardly doubt anyone sees debt as a gift. not all of us ar forunate to have rental properties and cell phone towers. Debt is sometimes a necessity to have ecessities-(ghees maybe this should be in a book of quotes)I think when he says debt free Jimbob means they just dont owe for a house or credit card. This doesnt include doc bills.
Debt = gift in this way....
You bought something before you had the money for it.
We don't NEED 'air jordons' we NEED shoes.
We don't NEED 'Calvin Kliene" we NEED clothing that will fit the weather.
We don't NEED brand name food items, we NEED food.
We don't NEED a cell phone.
We don't NEED the internet.
We don't NEED a NEW car. An old junker that has rust spots on the body, the top is peeling, and so forth will get you from point a to point b it just won't LOOK/ SMELL as nice.
If you live where there is public transportation you don't NEED a car at all (it's just nice to have)
We don't NEED that 500,000.00 house we NEED a roof over our heads.
I really do shake my heads in wonder @ my grown adult relatives that swear most of what I listed above is NEEDED by them or their children. But it doesn't stop me from taking their hand me downs for MY kids... So as a consequence My children tend to walk around in some name brand clothing simply because the OTHER relatives must have the latest and greatest w/e and to make room the pass the other stuff down to us :D
Doctor bills are a different matter to some extent... If it's and ER visit or something URGENT you don't have time to prepay the doctor or anything like that.
But at the same token did you know that if you PREPAY for most NON emergency issues you not only will not have a DEBT, but you can also get a BARGAIN.
Case in Point. (and this was years ago so forgive the dollar amounts the concept is the same)
I was preg with the fist kid we had NO medical insurance what so ever. I QUALIFIED for medicaid because we were dirt poor but I did not want to be a widget on a wheel so we PREPAID another OBGYN before I was 4 month preg and got the SAME service for HALF the price. (9-10 mo of service was 1500, we paid 700) We did the same thing at the hospital (medicaid would have paid for that as well) Reg hospital bill would have been roughly 2K... we paid less than 1k because we shopped the 2 hospitals against each other with the thought that we were PREPAYNG it.
This works for 90% of ANY medical procedure barring ER visits or urgent care. Also works VERY VERY well on Dental care as well.. And just in case you didn't know this either it will work if you have INSURANCE as well. You are just negotiating your portion of the bill. They like that they have YOUR money up front and they reward it.
The Duggars (for Josie) though have it covered with insurance and very little out of pocket (medical wise) the kind they have is the kind I will be looking for once I start the new job. We will pay a HIGH deductible (5k a year) after that the insurance covers 100%. For the 5K I will be setting up a HSA, the money can collect in there from year to year and then when we have to go to the doc we will be able to pay for the reg stuff and if (God Forbid) something happens we'll have it covered...
Deanna said...
If there are quiet play times, board games (why doesn't Jim Bob get down and play Clue or Sorry or Monopoly with his kids, like a lot of dads do?), (snipped)
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You have many good points, I know what you're getting at with the one I picked out, but when I read it all I could think was no, they couldn't play Clue because depending on when the version they might have, or come across (buy it new or at a second hand store) was made, Miss Scarlet varies in how much skin she's showing & how sexy a pose she's striking. It gave me a bit of a giggle.
Jane in California said...
What I found interesting though -- is that the young children on the Housewives show are mainly kept off camera. How weird is that -- (snipped)
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Sorry, I seem to be finding humour everywhere today. All I could think is of course they don't want their kids on TV, may get an impression of what the "wives" really looked like before they had all their cosmetic surgery.
Jim Bob saying that "most people see debt as a gift" is one of the most stupid things that I have ever heard anybody say. He is so obviously living in a world of his own creation, and I have very little respect for him now.
I used to enjoy watching this family . . . until I realized what it was all about.
Re: The constant PDA between Jim Bob and Michelle.
I thought that I noticed something in the episode where Josie is about to be born. It is before Michelle has the C-section and Jim Bob leans over to give her a kiss, and I swear that the look on Michelle's face is like, "The last thing in the world that I want to do is kiss you right now!"
"Also, the way they dragged that table around on those beautiful wood floors in the rental house was just plain pure disregard for someone else's property. I would have been FURIOUS if that happened to my rental house (if I had one LOL!), or if my children showed so little respect."
Did you notice Grandma Duggar down on one knee with a spray bottle and cloth? Looked like she was trying to repair some of the scrapes the kids made on that poor floor.
"Debt as a gift" I think refers to people who get offers in the mail for credit cards and run them up viewing them as "free money." I was one of those people in a former life. All you have to do is listen to one Dave Ramsey show on the radio and you'll hear story after story of people who have racked up thousands of thousands of credit card debt on items they most likely didn't need. When a credit card company uses the phrase "free offer" that is, in a sense, a gift.
They have never held it against anyone for being in debt. They don't judge people who are, because of their beliefs that judgement is reserved for G-d. So why would they hold it against any of their doctors for having student loan debt? I'm sure they would be happy to share with anyone how to get out of debt if asked, but they don't force that on anyone. They live to be an example.
They do pay for their own health insurance and are covered for Josie's care, however it is quite possible that they will incur some debt for the massive care she's undergoing. But because of their budgeting, saving, and because they began debt-free they will likely have it paid off soon.
The Duggars are proof that you can live within your means and be debt free. No one should have to go into debt to buy essentials. Unfortunately in our society today "essentials" have come to mean new cars, cable tv, large screen tvs, drive thru meals, and adjustable rate mortgages.
Since the 30 minute shows run on a theme, not a documentary style, you don't see but a minor glimse at the day to day life--only a few seconds of laundry, cooking, cleaning, or kids colouring. Most of the 30 minutes is directed to the week's theme and the director seems to want "action" shots. They also film constantly for about a few weeks and then make up the shows from the mass of footage. The Duggars have no idea what will wind up in the show and what won't as stated in the Hockey episode where they met their editor. We have also seen a goof where we saw Josh and Anna buy a new purse for Joy-Anna's birthday the week AFTER it was given to her in the episode showing her party (leading off a controversy of Josh and Anna buying new items not new when it was Joy's bday gift.)
To really see what their lives are truly like I recommend the documentaries they made prior to the show, although they are a bit old--only 16 kids. You do see normal day to day life.
They have board games, but it wasn't on the original list of things people wanted to know if the Duggars had or not. I saw the board game trouble, and several others already out and being played with so I didn't catch the names of the games. (it wasn't monopoly or clue or chutes and ladders which I would have recognized)
I also only posted a partial list, there were several other instances where they were playing with age appropriate toys but I figured 9-10 were enough shots to show it DOES happen...
While searching for another topic point I found articles where the reporter talked about the kids climbing on chairs, running back and forth, and the noise level... And the article was written after the FIRST special came out back when they were in the smaller house before the rental even.
IMO that would be that either 1) TLC talked the Duggars into sowing the shots of the kids running lose because of all the complaints that the kids were little "robots" OR with the film crew in the house and all that equipment they simply had the kids slow it down while the cameras were there so as to not run them over. When/ If I find that article again I'll post it. Till then feel free to believe me or not ;)
I think that is why a lot of people are getting tired of these reality shows, because they are not reality. The producers lead you into these shows by showing day to day life and then slowly over time it becomes these "theme" shows.
I know that after a few episodes of seeing how they do things there is nothing else to show so they have to make up stuff for the families to do. After awhile people get tired of that because it goes back to not being real. These families would not be doing the majority of the things they do except for the fact they are on a show. It just gets old. I read somewhere that they don't like to show them doing a lot of the things they do, such as working in the soup kitchens and other missions work they do, and I understand because you should't boast about your works. However, this is what they do that is real and I think people would rather see them working out their faith instead of visiting an ostrich farm, traveling to Kleinfeld's, visiting the Biltmore Estate, going to games, etc. Those are things that the family wouldn't have done if not for TLC and their show.
This family will get milked for another season or two and then it too will go away because they just simply aren't that interesting anymore.
OR wipe up something the kids spilled... it's a WOOD floor. Unless they take a hacksaw to it, sanding and refinishing it AFTER they move in will solve any issues the kids cause.
The owner of the house KNEW he was renting that house to a LARGE family of mostly very young children. And the damage small children and pets do make to a house.
The Duggars also know that any damage they do to that house will either have to be repaired when they move out OR they will have to pay to have any damage repaired. As a former Landlord we DO actually think about these things first and write them into the rental contracts.
Do we know how long this house has stood empty? It's a fairly LARGE house, with historic ties... How often do you think it can be rented.. the landlord may actually be quite happy the Duggars are there to have an income coming in on that property + the Duggars having to repair damages when they move out...
As a landlord I would have rented to the Duggars knowing that they would probably do some damage to the place, but would have to replace it. AND free publicity from now on... (not only was it the house of the Birth Control Queen, but the Duggars have lived here too) The irony alone is got to be worth something LOL.
PS the old and BETTER roller rinks are made out of wood... wonder if the Duggars brought their skates for that big ball room at the top... it's about the right size for a smaller rink, just saying...
Re hair bows: (3rd or 4th try, I lost count)(Sharla keeps wisely NOT posting the snarky ones)ROFL
The hair bow on the baby is sold all over the internet especially for NICU babies. They are NOT the lace ones that can irritate the skin.
Went I went searching yesterday I also found sites where NICU nurses were discussing dressing the babies up for things like Halloween, Easter and others. They would do it to make the PARENTS feel better, in fact the words they used was to have a sense of normalcy. Several parents also posted about how it made them feel like their babies were more real to them, or how it made them feel like they had an almost normal baby too.
The Duggars used a hair bow, designed for NICU, or preemie babies, and with the permission of the nurses, and or doctors. Who are we to nay-say them over something as silly as a soft head band with a bow attached.
@Steel
Debt is a gift explained over and over on "free discussion February" and several others sections of this blog.
If you bought it before you had the money for it (barring doctor bills) you have given yourself a GIFT. IMO and Dave Ramsey's Opinion it also shows a lack of maturity Dave quote: "only a BABY or a child wants it NOW NOW NOW, a mature adult can wait, save up, and pay for it." BTW Dave makes a VERY VERY good living telling people this EVERY day... ROFL JimBob puts it slightly different and people go up in arms... Maybe I should send JimBob Dave's quotes and see if he will say it that way instead ;) ;)
JimBob is not the ONLY one to say it, he's just the only one that has said it that BADLY or was misquoted or not completely quoted.
BTW they have been saying the same things since the first special about Debt and Kids... But now that PEOPLE made it pretty much front page NOW people are upset about it...
I am also a landlord and may very well rent to the Duggars assuming they would pay to fix the floors their children ruined. HOWEVER, I am also a mother and would be horrified if I ruined the floors in a rental home or any other home. What happened to respect for others and their property? What about not spending money frivolously? If I ruined things and just figured I would pay to fix it later I feel that is not only disrespectful but financially wasteful. I have no idea what they are thinking (unlike others, I don't actually know the Duggars or their thoughts) but it appears that they do not behave in accordance with what they espouse on a very regular basis.
cyn :)
I think thats just a web clip, not sure if was ever if ever made it to tv. but its on the tlc website.
Having wood floors all over my house can some one tell me how a toddler/ child sliding a table over the floor RUINS the floor?
Or how as I suggested, would roller skating on it RUIN the floor?
We slide our couches, tables, and chairs all over our floors they don't get RUINED by them; scratched here and there yes.... which is what I thought we were discussing... The table isn't heavy enough to put gouges in the floors,(otherwise the child could not have pushed it) I didn't see anyone digging at the floor with sharp tools...
We have been in this house over a year, the ONLY damage my more rambunctious children have done to the floor is scratch the FINISH... And they do more than push a table across the floor... My oldest couldn't carry the 4 drawer metal filing cabinet so he had to push it (we had broke the dolly), he put scratches in the floor that a light sanding, a little Murphy's oil, and a buffing cloth and issue fixed.
Cyn said:
"The Duggars (for Josie) though have it covered with insurance and very little out of pocket (medical wise) the kind they have is the kind I will be looking for once I start the new job. We will pay a HIGH deductible (5k a year) after that the insurance covers 100%"
I have been working in the healthcare industry for years, both on the hospital side and insurance side. Every year insurance is covering less and costing more. In my state I there are no plans for those seeking private (non group) policies, even if you are perfectly healthy and willing to pay any premium that pay 100% even after a huge dedutible. There are high deditible plans like you mention 5-6k and then it is an 80/20 split not 100%. The few 100% plans left that I have seen are from large employers that offer group plans.
I also used to see exactly what you decsribed pre-pay and save but that is going away if it is not gone. My friend that has a 5 year old prepaid her hospital maternity stay and got 50% off. During her current pregnancy, no upfront discounts at all even after shopping 4 hospitals. I also tried helping my aunt shop for a prepay on a hysterectomy. She has an 80/20 plan and pre-paid 1k for a her gallbladder co-pay 3 years ago. Now we can find no hospital that will help with pre-pay in a 3 state region.
I have appreciated that Duugars for being upfront most of the time (they could have sold recipes and other infomation the have told on the show or posted on their website). I would love to know the name of their insurance and they actually rates. I know so many small business owners that have to give up thier dreams to take a job just to get insurance. If Jim Bob believes in owning your own business and being your own boss, I wish as he is sharing this new chapter in their lives how the insurance really works. Even if he has had the policy for years , policies change yearly, not only rates but coverages get lowered.
@ Anne sorry to hear about your issues with prepay.
Last year in TN we prepaid a bunch of my mothers cancer costs, and she got the discounts which is why I wrongly assumed every one could.
It might be state to state region to region even Doc to Doc... still NEVER hurts to try first...
BTW did you also know that simply making your spouse an 'employee' turns you into a group with some of the insurance co. AND by becoming a "group" you don't have to worry about 'pre-existing' conditions (which will seriously help as my husband is a diabetic and we are currently paying 100% for ALL his medical needs since he has been unemployed since LAST Feb.
Starting in March I will be starting a job in a company that has all of THREE employees (me, my hubby, and one other)We are currently looking into the insurance and every one we have found so far pays 100% of routine things IN network AFTER the deductible, OUT of network it pays 70/30 again after the deductible.
Routine things being doc office visits, lab work, pap smears, and check-ups, different hospital stays.
Some of them also have catastrophic coverage as well that after the deductible is met (higher one) the rest is still 100% covered. Now some of the drugs aren't, home care wasn't covered, and you did have to be IN network...
Could it just be the fact I'm in GA? I don't know I didn't research the other states when I was looking for the plans for us because we are all in GA...
MAYBE The Duggars have the same things available to them in Arkansas... All I DO know is The Duggars either said it on the show or in an interview "Rest assured, for those that are worried that the government is picking up this tab, insurance was covering everything so far". Where I heard it I'm NOT sure or I'd post the link.
oooooooooo I FOUND it
Johannah and Jackson starting their violin lessons. And they are foam.
"Duggars Learn to Drive" part two Starting around 3.50ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f31A2OhqZV8&NR=1
People aren't upset that Jim Bob says they live debt free. Living debt free is a good thing.
People are upset that Jim Bob claims that people prefer debt to children. I guarantee that Dave Ramsey does NOT endorse that statement of Jim Bob Duggar's. Most people who have debt did not choose debt over children. Some lived over their means, some ran into bad times, but most didn't say, "Hey, I'd rather have a trip to Aruba than another kid"!
I only have three children, by choice. I don't have debt (except a mortgage, almost paid off!) either, but we made the conscious decision to STOP at three children. We could not CHOOSE to take on debt to properly educate more than three children (and in our family, education, including higher education, is very important). So, we chose to have the number of children we could afford to properly raise, with enough attention, money, etc. for each.
It isn't choosing debt OVER children. Nonsense. Some people, like me, just choose to have a smaller number of children, because we know that raising children is a big job for parents (not for their siblings) and requires money! Music lessons, sports, camps, college educations are expensive, so YES...I will choose a more appropriate number of children so that they can have those things. And I wouldn't choose to take on debt so I could produce a litter of children.
Jim Bob blew it with his statement. And he is really wrong too. It is not a belief that anti-debt people, myself included, can agree with.
I got the Duggar's book from the library. Very interesting, and it was free.
Cyn, I respectfully point out that you were the one discussing the fact that the Duggars would have to pay to repair any damage done to the floors and it didn't seem you meant a little rub with some Murphy's oil. We also have hardwoods throughout our home. I guess ours are a little less resilient than yours as we have had to have them refinished a couple of times due to dogs, rowdy kids, and moving furniture around. The craftsman who last refinished them told us to put pads on the bottom of all of our furniture that might scratch (like dining chairs) and to be cautious of things exactly like skates, hot wheels cars, etc. on the floors. (and we do allow play dough and have never once had an issue with mess) Everyone is different. But I think that when people stay at someone else's home they should increase their level of respect vs. reduce it.
As to the hospital bills for Josie - I imagine the Duggars are racking up quite a bit of medical expenses for their portion. As someone else pointed out -- it's very unlikely that the Duggars have an insurance policy that is paying 100% of the medical expenses after a $5,000 deductible. Those policies simply aren't out there anymore. Not that I wish the Duggars a huge medical bill, only that I know and see the reality in my line of work. What used to be the standard was you had a high deductible, then you had a co-pay of 20%. However, more and more insurance companies are putting a cap on what they will pay, and you might find yourself responsible for 100% of the charges after they've paid a certain amount.
What sort of bills the Duggars have now are their own business. However, I would guess they are facing some steep co-pays and are probably doubly grateful that they have the show income to help defray these unexpected expenses. Perhaps TLC is helping to pay some of these added expenses, but that would be at TLC's discretion. They probably don't want the Duggars filing for bankruptcy mid-show, so my guess is if financial help is needed, it would be done quietly and without fanfare so they can keep up the facade of living debt free.
I'd also like to point out that Michelle, if she wasn't on the insurance companies' radar as having a pre-existing condition before, is certainly on it now. After the great expense that the insurance company just faced with preemie Josie -- you had better believe they are thinking long and hard about whether to continue to offer the same level of insurance to Mrs. Duggar, especially since she and JB have announced they have no plans to stop procreating. Their insurance company could well decline to renew their policy next time around, and then they'd be shopping around facing monumental insurance costs.
If you haven't been searching for private health insurance lately, you'll just have to take my word for it. It's a nightmare out there.
I would definitely consider scratches on hardwood floors -- that were not there before, to be damage; and I would charge the Duggars accordingly to refinish them. And I really am quite surprised that they were allowed to live in an historic home at all because of the chance that this kind of thing could happen.
I suspect that their insurance has changed since they wrote the book.
As employees of TLC, they may have group insurance through that venue.
Anyone owning a 7000+ sq ft home in this economy would, i assume, welcome the chance to rent it out, as I'm sure they are having a tough time getting it sold. And as we saw in the first documentaries, the Duggars have had trouble finding landlords in the past willing to rent to a family of their size, so this landlord obviously knows that he/she/they are getting into.
I agree with what Cyn said, the kids may inadvertantly scratch the finish, but they aren't going to destroy the floor outright. And if they do, they certainly wouldn't have to pay for the repairs, anyone who knows the Duggars at all knows that they are all skilled at carpentry (even the girls) and would be able to fix any damage themselves. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if Jim Bob negotiated as part of the lease any kind of upkeep, repairs, and/or additions to lower the rent.
The point is that scratching the floors by dragging tables on it, with the attitude of "oh, we can fix it later" doesn't fit at all with Jim Bob's mantra of saving money or respect. It's disrespectful to the owners of the home, and a waste of money to repair the floors that his children have damaged with their rambunctiousness.
"but most didn't say, "Hey, I'd rather have a trip to Aruba than another kid"!"
I have heard numerous people make statements just like this. Now, I'm not saying that I think this is wrong or right, just making the point that many people do have their priorities in that order.
Just off the top of my head, I have a friend who loves to travel, and says she won't have any more children because she wants to have money and time for her trips. Not saying this is morally wrong, just relating the facts.
I have another friend who didn't want to have another child because it would interfere with plans to take the children to Disneyland regularly. Again, not saying this is necessarily wrong.
A pp mentioned a quote from somebody that goes "the Bible says children are a blessing and debt is a burden, yet we apply for debt and prevent blessings."
It is an undisputed fact that most people in America do apply for debt and have prevented the birth of children, myself included. This is what JimBob was saying, however abrasively, and he is correct. And he is saying that he and his family have chosen to do the opposite. Nothing wrong with that.
Of course he thinks he's right to make that decision - just as we think we are right to make the decision to have fewer children, whether the reasons are to provide trips to Aruba or college educations, or any other reason.
To each his own, and I don't think JB should be slammed for saying it anymore than we should be slammed for saying we choose different.
Anonymous said...
I suspect that their insurance has changed since they wrote the book.
As employees of TLC, they may have group insurance through that venue.
* * *
Well, I'm not sure they are employees in the real sense of the word. They have a contract with TLC, in which they agree to be filmed under all sorts of "whereas" and "heretofore's" etc. It's basically a contract for services rendered. You do this, and we agree to pay you $X per show. I really doubt payroll taxes are deducted from that amount. In that case, they wouldn't qualify for any benefits as employees, and that would include group health insurance.
Now, if they negotiated a clause in their contract that TLC agrees to pay all or part of their individual health insurance plan, that's something else. However, at this point, the only concrete info the Duggars have given out is that they purchase their own health insurance, that it has a high deductible, and then coverage kicks in after that. I'm not sure if they've ever indicated whether they must then pay part of the bills after their deductible is met.
The fact is, if you are seeking health insurance as an individual, especially for you, your spouse with a pre-existing condition (pre-eclampsia), your 18 children still living at home (or in the hospital), you will find very few insurers and extremely high premiums, with lots and lots of things that aren't covered, probably caps on lifetime benefits, and you'll definitely be paying even after you've met your high deductible. It's just how it is these days.
Anonymous said...
Personally, I am thankful for patriarchy. I'm thankful for a father who worked two jobs so our mother could be at home with us kids. We didn't have to come home to an empty house after school. Our little brothers and sisters were never dropped off at day care for 8 hours a day, with it's constant staff turnovers and sick kids.
I call my parents blessed and to this day thank them for the investment they made in our lives.
___________________________________
Okay, I know this comment was from a couple of days ago, but I have to make a comment about this.
I am so incredibly thankful that I had TWO parents who were willing to work. I had an wonderful, loving childhood because of it and am so grateful. Let me explain.
My dad is a farmer. It's his passion, it's in his heart and soul, it's what he loves to do. When my siblings and I were young in the 80s farmers in our area were taking a HUGE hit. Most were LOSING money every year. There is no possible way he could have supported us on his own. So my mom worked full time. Why? Because in order to support us by himself my dad would have done one or two things. He either would have had to give up his passion, what he loved to do in order to do something where he made enough to support us. Or he would have had to pick up a second and probably a third job. I know he would have been willing to do that, but my mom wouldn't let him.
When my mom was growing up her mom stayed at home to raise the kids and her dad worked. In order to support a family of 8 on a high school diploma, he had to work 3 jobs. My mom never knew her dad. When she was a kid he was always working. And when he was home he was sleeping. She had no relationship with her father, no memories of snuggling on the couch together reading a book, or of him coming to her piano recital. My mom recognized that children need TWO parents. By both of my parents working a moderate amount, I was blessed to have both be very involved in my life. I never felt abandoned or like I didn't get enough time with my parents. And because my dad was doing what he loved, he was full of joy, which he brought into our home, infecting us with his joyful spirit.
I have SO MUCH respect for my mom. She is, without a doubt, the hardest working woman I have ever met. She worked full time, went back to grad school when I was in elementary school, and still found time to read us bedtime stories, cook all our meals from scratch, and sew our halloween costumes. She was truly an example of JOY (Jesus first, others second, yourself last)! I haven't seen anything from any Duggar that can remotely compare.
I'm not against stay at home moms. I'm not against working moms. I believe every family has to work out the best solution for their family on their own. There is no one size fits all and I don't think it's right condemn or judge working moms.
BTW, I was not dropped at a daycare center (although I have no problem with daycare). I was lovingly cared for by my grandmother and everyday my dad came in off the farm to eat lunch with us. How many kids do you know whose dads leave their work to come eat lunch with them every single day? I was (and still am!) incredibly blessed.
-Emily
It could be that they are doing the best they can in a very stressful situation. They moved their family to a strange city under unbelievably stressful and frightening circumstances; they are struggling to keep their schedules "normal" for the little ones so as not to scare them or worry them; and at the same time they are trying to be there for each other as man and wife while they wonder if their newest child is going to live to see her next day. While I think it's important as renters to be respectful of people's property, I also think it's fair to take into context that this family is going through an experience that only a fraction of a percent of families can understand. TLC has aired hours and hours of filmed proof that these parents have raised children to be thoughtful and respectful to others and it's important to remember that.
@ Deanna The damage I was speaking of was the scratches to the floor, knocks in the walls while moving furniture, IF perchance one of them draws on the walls, scuff marks on the floors ect. Things that happen when a family moves in LARGE family or not. Children DO damage things. Not always on purpose but it does happen. Frankly I should have been more specific when I typed the first comments about damage. Sorry.
No I do NOT think the Duggars went into it with the IDEA that we'll just let the kids destroy the property and then repair it, but DID go into the deal with the thought that IF damage occurs they would repair it OR fix it.
PS the play-dough that stains is the HOME MADE kind. And to get the stupid stain up we had to sand down the floor, and re stain it. The Regular play-dough they got in the carpets and their hair, after that it was banned at MY house. The Grandparents on the other hand have them sets that they can play with OUTSIDE at an area they have (just so no on thinks my kids are deprived with no Play-dough)
Re Insurance:
I did on the other hand find the quote... it's in the same people article posted on this blog and the same page as the debt is a gift quote.
"Critics who believe the Duggar children are a strain on government finances can rest easy; the Duggars live debt free in a 7,000-sq -ft home they built themselves, and Josie's medical costs are covered by insurance."
As for covering Michelle... The insurance they have now doesn't cover Michelle's pregnancies they pay those out of pocket. Whether the insurance drops them after Josie or not I don't have a clue.
I live in Arkansas and am self-employed. I have private health insurance thru Arkansas Blue Cross Blue Shield. I have a $2500 deductible and after that its covered at 100 percent up to a $1,000,000. Never had a NICU stay so I'm not sure if she will go over that or not. My premium for a family of 4 is $314.07 per month. I do not have maternity coverage as we can't have any more children. I do believe that its a family coverage option though which means the # of children doesn't affect the premium. And the deductible is only for major medical. I still just have a copay of $30 for regular doc visits and prescriptions are also covered with a $10/$30/$50 copay. So in Arkansas those kinds of plans do indeed exist. The rate is based on the age of the husband in 5 year increments. In other words my 314 premium is based on a 35-39 year old male.
Cyn said...
PS the old and BETTER roller rinks are made out of wood... wonder if the Duggars brought their skates for that big ball room at the top... it's about the right size for a smaller rink, just saying...
--------------------
Actually Cyn, you're very right on this, they probably could roller skate in there & not do a lot of damage if the floors are finished like they were over 120 years ago, especially if the floor is a hard wood & not a soft wood. I've lived in a lot of very old houses in my life (oldest was built in 1750), my family seemed to just zoom in on the oldest, scariest, creepiest houses they could find, like mice after cheese.
The floors in these places were amazing with the amount of wear & tear they could take. A cream separator was dropped, nothing, the milking machine was dropped, again, nothing, not a dent, not a scratch, nothing. A milk pasteurizer was knocked off of a counter, floor was fine no damage, but the pasteurizer never worked again. Yep, one clumsy family.
The previous owner had a habit of wearing his steel toe work boots & hard heeled cowboy boots throughout the house, again, no damage. They really knew how to build things to last back then & they built it with that very intention, that it would be there for generations of their descendants. Very different from what we see in modern built homes.
I can't help but wonder about the memories that the little ones will have of their childhood.
I lost my father at 10 - but I have fond memories of him, and of my mother.
The Duggar children are paired with "buddies". What will they remember later on?
Thank you Anonymous for info on your Arkansas private insurance rates. I'm glad to hear such plans still exist, although I am aware that various insurance companies in a number of states are proposing large rate hikes (39% in CA - Blue Cross; 15% in Oregon; and so forth) An article in the Arkansas Online talks about this and there was a quote:
"You're going to see rate increases of 20, 25, 30 percent" for individual health policies in the near term, Sandy Praeger, chairwoman of the health insurance and managed care committee for the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, predicted Friday.
Anyway, based on your current premium for a family of four, I hazard to guess the Duggars family of 20 (no longer counting Josh as he's on his own now), may pay close to $2,000/month for insurance alone. Although that's a lot, hopefully it is somewhat less than that!
I'm sorry I got so in depth on the personal insurance, but to be honest, it merely brings me back to one of my original points of contention, which was the lack of further education or training for the Duggar children. The cost of living is rising every day, and it seems like the Duggar kids are being inadequately prepared for the reality they will be facing when they move out and start a life of their own.
While we may all long for simpler days, those are gone and never to return. I still think it's best to prepare our children for the world as it is now, not how we wish it once was.
@ Sheep
THAT may be the difference then.. cause we are in an OLDER home, I had not realized (having not lived with wood floors before this) there was difference in the wood floors.
Until we moved here we always had carpet and or linoleum.
The house the Duggars are in was built in the early 1900's. I doubt they have the softer wood floors, not if they have stood up to everything this house has been since the original owners built it: http://www.arkansasties.com/Pulaski/Structures/CornishHouse/CornishHouse.htm
Isn't the larger issue that the Duggar children are allowed to roller skate indoors ?
Doesn't anyone in that family believe in safety?
The first time one of them trips into the corner of a piece of furniture, it could rip open their face, and then it's off to the emergency room for 10 stitches or more.
Whatever happened to appropriate boundaries?
Just because they "can" do something, doesn't mean they "should".
Marybeth said, "TLC has aired hours and hours of filmed proof that these parents have raised children to be thoughtful and respectful to others."
-----
The children were not very respectful in the episode at the Ethiopian restaurant in Washington, DC., i.e. holding their noses and rolling their eyes at the food and dancers.
This is just one of many examples of filmed proof.
You know, I bet if you wrote the Duggars a letter asking them what kind of insurance they have they would probably let you know. I mean it might take awhile for a response considering their current situation. However, if they are doing this show for the reason they say that are (which i believe they are) its to encourage others and a practical question like insurance seems like one that would be answered. One reason i suggest this is because I am a little curious myself. My husband has health insurance through is job but we pay an extra $400 a month to insure me! A healthy 22 year old female. And my mom who is a state employee paid quite a bit extra for every single one of us children growing up so im interested to hear about a cost effective health insurance for a family of 20+. Especially considering that pregnancy is a pre-existing condition for insurance companies and Michelle's non-pregnant windows are pretty small.
Insurance set aside, I bet TLC is footing the NICU bill.
-Lauren
I fail to see how the Duggar children are being "poorly trained and educated" for real life. Their parents have described in detail how they worked and saved and learned skills to buy and remodel their first home. We also learned how they learned to operated and purchase their own businesses by trial and error, some successfully and some just scraping by. From this they are home-schooling their children with purchased and acredited home-schooling programs that allow for the kids to graduate high school (GED) at 16 instead of 18 (if they went to public or private school.) At the same time they learn how to skillfully budget, shop frugally yet buy quality items, cook, manage a household (boys and girls), carpentry, plumbing, electrical, and other general household building maintenance (boys and girls, car repair and upkeep, how to scout real estate deals, how to scout out deals at auction and resell at retail price, how to bargain/haggle for a better deal, as well as good moral, ethical, and family values. The kids are well aware of their family's state of affairs and not kept in the dark. I wish I had that kind of education by the time I had left home.
According to my doctor, pre-eclampsia is not a "pre-existing condition." I had it with my 1st and so far only child. I was told that just because you have it once it doesn't mean you'll ever have it again. We hope to be blessed and are not at all worried.
Well, it looks like JimBob & Michelle better hurry up and try for baby #20, because Mrs. Bates is evidently pregnant with #18.
http://staddonfamily.com/category/tidbits/
The competition is getting fierce and TLC just might dump the Duggars in favor of the Bates family. But that's okay, because there's enough exploitation (oops, I mean "encouragement") to go around.
Emily, I loved what you had to say. My mom was a stay at home mom; I chose to work. I could have stayed home, but my husband would have had to work more and we felt that a father-son relationship is just as important as mother-son. I am fortunate that I have a phenomenal schedule and we have rarely needed child care. Our son is close to each of us in unique ways. We live modestly. I don't work only for money, I work because I LOVE my job and my profession. I believe it is my God given gift. What works for us wouldn't work for everyone. I cook from scratch, clean, do the bills, go to school, work, volunteer at my son's school, etc. We have our own garden; where is the Duggar garden? They said it, but I have yet to see it. I am lucky that school came easy and I am naturally "a go getter". I tried to stay at home and I just couldn't do it. My mind races constantly. I read several books a week. I can't help it. It's like asking a sprinter to run slower. It's just in his nature, let it be.
When I see the Duggars, I can't help but wonder if some of those kids have the same hunger I do. There is no one right way. Different people have different gifts and different ways of expressing them. I am not against homeschooling, per se; but I wish the kids had more individuality. The young ones seem to be experiencing a very different upbringing from the older ones. I hope things work out for all of them. No matter what the circumstance, all kids go through growing pains and hopefully JB and M have decent enough relationships with each child that he/she will go to them with their concerns, though I highly doubt it.
Regarding the insurance: if their insurance doesn't cover Michelle's pregnancies, does that mean none of the pregnancy complications are covered? In other words, are the costs for her flight, emergency C-section, IV meds for her blood pressure, cardiac and fetal monitoring on the high risk perinatal unit? Treatment for pre-ecclampsia/ecclampsia can get very pricey. It would probably be billed under intensive care, which automatically adds expenses because of the more intensive and sometimes invasive monitoring. I'm just curious if it stays under and OB designation or goes under medical when complications arise. (BTW, helicopter flights run between $10-20K each, I am a critical care transport nurse.)
I would love it if the Duggars were more forthcoming about how they pay for things. It cold very very valuable information for a lot of people, especially given the current state of health care. JMO!
I have an old house with quality old hardwood floors. The last time i had them refinished the gentleman told me, it was the last time they could be done. Even hardwood can only be sanded so far. Yes, it gets scratched if furniture or other things are dragged are dragged across it, so we don't. I'm not sure i would want roller rink floors in my house. it is a different look.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but years ago on one of the early Duggar shows or specials, didn't they take a trip to California? Along the way, they stayed in a hotel and rather trashed the rooms. As I recalled, they were rather cavalier about it. Anyone remember this?
Marybeth said...
According to my doctor, pre-eclampsia is not a "pre-existing condition." I had it with my 1st and so far only child. I was told that just because you have it once it doesn't mean you'll ever have it again. We hope to be blessed and are not at all worried.
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Yes but it's not the doctors who decide what is or is not a pre-existing condition - it's the insurance companies. The only thing they look at is the bottom line, and if they think they might have to face paying for another round of emergency care for Michele if she gets pregnant again, or NICU charges for another preemie -- I'm pretty sure those rates will go sky high.
I'm not trying to dispute whether the Duggars will have insurance coverage. I'm merely pointing out that unfortunately, in this existing economy, they are going to have to pay higher and higher premiums for that coverage.
I guess what I wonder is this: If the Duggars find out that they will possibly face tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills (say $50,000 or more) should they have another high risk pregnancy, do you think they would take steps to try to minimize the possibility of getting pregnant or not?
Secondly, as a parent raising 18 children, one who may have some serious medical issues and need lots of care and physical therapy, would it be responsible to risk incurring another large medical debt to have a 20th child, or should the responsibility lay more with caring for your existing children and working to get out of the debt that may have incurred with the birth of the 19th?
Interestingly, JB and M might be facing a decision of whether to choose to actively seek a further pregnancy, knowing that choice automatically would include incurring debt. Although maybe they could sell their large touring bus, or a piece of rental property. At least, that's what I'd do to pay off any large bills.
I believe Mr. Duggar had disclosed the terms of his insurance. I believe he has one of those policies in which you pay a flat fee for a family plan that includes children regardless of the amount of children. I know that most plans that you can get on a job you pay extra for a spouse and extra for a child and extra for a spouse and child. Once you add a child all of the other children you have or will have usually will be covered with no added expense. I paid the same to put my daughter on my health plan when I worked that someone else who had eight children.
I do believe, as we have discussed he has a high deductable and does not have maternity covered so his payments are lower than if he had a low deductable.
I've never heard of a policy where you have a flat rate regardless of the number of children covered. Especially when we're talking 19 or so children under that policy.
I'm not finding fault with the Duggars when I point out that insurance is expensive, especially for individuals. It's expensive unless you or your spouse are in the military, or unless you are lucky enough to be covered under your employer's plan.
The Duggars are luckier than most, since they have the income from this show to help cover their expenses. I still don't happen to think it's worth the exchange (giving up your privacy and that of your children)
Most of the insurance plans that I have seen have had a family option that kicked in with two or three dependents and the price did not go up after that. These were all employer plans, though. The Duggars may belong to one of the "Christian" plans that are available. Those frequently encourage children so I doubt that there would be a penalty for a large family with one of those.
Thanks for the link Cyn, that is a very lovely place. It even depends on which hardwood it is, some are a good deal more durable than others. That's probably what's going on with the floor in your place, sounds like you have a good one, hang on to it.
I have no idea what ours was other than that it was an exotic wood, I've never seen anything like it since, it was extremely dark only a shade or two from being total black, though some grain could be seen. Also some of the ways floors were finished cannot be done in this day and age as a few methods were a good deal more toxic than what's permitted.
To the other poster, I did not mean to imply that the Duggars should roller skate, I was merely speaking of the durability of the floor. You shouldn't roller skate anywhere without the proper precautions & you shouldn't roller skate in any house, never mind a historical one unless you have the owner's permission, good luck on that one.
Jane in CA: "I guess what I wonder is this: If the Duggars find out that they will possibly face tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills (say $50,000 or more) should they have another high risk pregnancy, do you think they would take steps to try to minimize the possibility of getting pregnant or not?
Secondly, as a parent raising 18 children, one who may have some serious medical issues and need lots of care and physical therapy, would it be responsible to risk incurring another large medical debt to have a 20th child, or should the responsibility lay more with caring for your existing children and working to get out of the debt that may have incurred with the birth of the 19th?"
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Jane, what a very excellent point!
Are the Duggars as portrayed on TV sufficiently sophisticated in their reasoning abilities to grapple with these gray areas, i.e., are they, even right now, this very minute, still completely, totally open to god sending them yet another 'blessings'to be born in 9 months (or, as with Josie, even sooner), even while their latest child is desperately clinging to life OR have they actually taken measures to thwart another pregnancy for the present?
The Duggar brand seems one that thinks merely in black and white terms. As portrayed by TLC, the Duggars seem unwilling (unable?) to ponder the thornier grey areas of real life, so will they just abdicate their responsibilities in these grey areas by their usual 'we're letting god decide' or will they react as responsible & thinking adults by soul searching and helping god along a little by making wise choices for themselves?
What balance will be struck between their professed 'let god decide how many children' vs. the realities of Josie's current (and likely future) struggles?
Of course, the wild card in this is that those who play the 'always let god decide' card can always just claim 'god put it in my heart to...,' claiming they left it to god and god TOLD them to pursue a certain course.
Pretzel Logic.
I re-watched that original episode in the Little Rock house last night as well as the new one and nowhere did I see the kids roller skating in that house. I remember them doing it in their own house in Tonitown, but in this house they were mostly sliding around on sock feet on the ballroom floor; my own grandchildren love to do this on our hardwood.\
As for the sliding down the stairs incident, I didn't think they were really in all that much danger. Again, our grandchildren did that at our house and had loads of fun until I made them stop because I was afraid they would mark up the walls and our stairs were hardwood. They are in more danger charging around a house with a lot of furniture where they can fall and bang their heads. I realize others will not agree with me, but that is the kind of fun kids make for themselves.
I do think those little boys especially are allowed too much freedom to use "outdoor" toys inside their house, not only because they could damage the floors and cabinets, but because they might hurt a smaller child who gets in their way!
I've never heard of a policy where you have a flat rate regardless of the number of children covered.
Really? I thought family plans were standard???
Re Skating in the new house:
I stated that hardwood floors made the best skating rinks, and then 'tongue-in-cheek' wondered if they had brought their skates.
I am sorry if any one got the impression that they were actually skating in that episode.
And I know I am in the minority as well when I say sliding down the stairs they way the Duggar kids were doing is quite a lot of fun, it only gets dangerous when you add something to the mix like plastic lids, large pillow cases, and the like that make you go faster.
And may I point out that in 20 years of raising kids they have had I think a total on one broken arm as the most serious injury. Sounds like a good track record to me.
Another insurance issue/question - While most employer-provided group plans do allow you to cover an unlimited number of dependents under family coverage, all of the ones I've ever participated in stipulate that once a dependent turns 18, s/he must either be disabled or a full-time student to continue coverage. After that, most plans cut off dependents somewhere around age 23-25, unless they are disabled. So the three oldest children still living at home would not be eligible for coverage under the family plan, and would need their own insurance plans.
It would be interesting for JB to disclose more details of his insurance coverage, particularly since health care is such a hot topic right now. However, I don't think I'll hold my breath waiting for that info. LOL...
The Duggars have professed since day one of filming that God is in control of their lives. They have been giving him that control for at least 20+ years, and from what I read in the people article, and have seen in the newest episodes this has not changed, or even wavered.
If one believes as strongly as the Duggars do that not only is God in control but He will bring them through anything He places in their path, they are not going to change the way they operate.
They look around and see the way God has blessed them; emotionally, spiritually, and financially when they follow His ways. They have also seen things do not go well with them when they don't.
This isn't a fad with them, or something they came up with one night, this is a deep spiritual conviction for them. Had TLC never came along they would be having these kids. My personal opinion is that TLC or no TLC the Duggars would have/will continue to have children till God closes her womb.
Josie's continued survival is proof to them that God has not abandoned them, they in turn are not going to turn their backs on Him. On the other hand even if something does actually happen (or had happened) to Josie the kind of conviction they have will not change. They will mourn their loss, and so will her siblings, but the Duggars would use their grief to grow closer to God not draw away. JMO
Personally, I think it is nothing short of a miracle that none of those kids has been seriously hurt with the shenanigans and chaotic behavior, much of it extremely dangerous (hanging from stairways, sliding down stairs headfirst, poking heads out roofs of unfinished houses, etcetcetcetc).
I don't think that the fact that they have been blessed with no injuries is an endorsement for their exceptionally unsafe behavior (that not even their mother nixes!). if anything, it is just luck. Sliding down the stairs head first could VERY easily result in a head or neck injury. Did you see how Johanna or Jennifer looked so dazed after one of her "runs", when she bumped all the way down? Had she jammed her head...not a good thing. That's how people become paralyzed.
And Michelle simply "looking on"? That made no sense to me. What kind of mother looks on and thinks that behavior is oK?
Kat, I have been wondering the same thing. My guess is that they have taken out similar policies for each of the older children since they are not in school(that we are aware of.)
-Katydid
Based on what's been posted so far
I don't think that the Duggar's can possibly be debt free now with all of their hospital bills. I feel truly sorry for people who struggle financially because of an illness. (I'm Canadian and get my healthcare for free)
IMHO they weren't debt free before Josie because they were indebted to their daughter's for all the free labour.
Deanna said:
And Michelle simply "looking on"? That made no sense to me. What kind of mother looks on and thinks that behavior is oK?
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The kind that says "kids will be kids" and accepts little responsibility for the fact that parents are supposed to step in and redirect their children when they engage in unsafe behavior.
The kind that will never take responsibility, even if a child ended up seriously injured because of this sort of wild uncontrolled behavior. The attitude then will simply be "We're so thankful that it wasn't worse. God was looking over him (or her) that day."
See how that works? Pretty nifty, if your conscience will allow it.
@Cyn: "...Josie's continued survival is proof to them that God has not abandoned them..."
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So, by this logic, does that mean that if Josie does not survive (& I hope the poor little baby makes it), that god has abandoned them?
Tell me if I'm wrong, but years ago on one of the early Duggar shows or specials, didn't they take a trip to California? Along the way, they stayed in a hotel and rather trashed the rooms. As I recalled, they were rather cavalier about it. Anyone remember this?
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Can't say I saw that episode, but there was one episode, I think when Michelle was pregnant with Jordyn and they went to visit the unit. (I could be wholly inaccurate, it was a long time ago, so feel free to correct me.) The kids were pounding on the light wall in the pediatric unit. JB and M just laughed and went on and on about how neat the wall was. If I remember correctly, there were offices on the other side and someone came out to see what the noise was about. IMO, that is NOT acceptable behavior from the parents or the children. I don't think kids need to quiet all the time by any means, but several of the children were literally beating on the wall and were extremely disruptive. They were in a hospital for Pete's sake. It wasn't a party or indoor play gym. As usual, JB and M just looked on. I do not think the younger children are well behaved at all. Part of being a parent is taking care of the gift of a child that you have been blessed with. I remain unimpressed with this aspect of their parenting.
I just want to say that I enjoy the discourse on this blog. There are many times when I see things in a myopic view, and I appreciate the opposing or different perspectives. I stand corrected at times. Is it possible that the Duggars actually do some things wrong? It's not about faith, which seems to give them a free pass by some, it's about being human. JMO.
prior poster said, "And Michelle simply "looking on"? That made no sense to me. What kind of mother looks on and thinks that behavior is oK?"
A mother like Michelle, who is "checked out" emotionally from raising her children.
There is more to being a mom than providing meals and cleaning up (although Michelle does very little of that either).
Has it ever been proven one way or the other that the Duggars have traditional insurance over one of the christain ministries health sharing plans?
Up until Josie everything that had been described by the Duggars (the cost, the coverage, that the number of children did not matter, the haggling for cash prices on rountine care) made me believe they had one of those chirstian sharing ministries not an actual traditional health insurance policy. Also with the Duggars saying with certainty that all Josie bills will be covered by their policy, leads me to believe it has to be the health sharing ministry(maybe they promised JimBob they would get it all covered via the donation system the policies use for huge medical expenses). I have had a baby in the NICU and over 30 surgeries and until I saw the bill was paid I would never count on my traditonal policy covering anything, certainly not while the bill is racking up daily. Does JimBob even realize the cost (debt) adding up? Just inserting that feeding tube and the x-ray cost around 2k, And that was just one procedure.
I was shocked to see how low the rates were for Blue Cross Blue Shield in Arkansas. I appreciate the comparison. I had almost the same policy with Blue Cross, except it was 80/20 after the $2500 deductible in Utah. We have only one child, so a policy for 3 in the 35-39 age group , no high risk issues and our policy was $1016 a month as of last July increase. It amazes me how rates differ so much state to state!
Cyn said - "They look around and see the way God has blessed them; emotionally, spiritually, and financially when they follow His ways. They have also seen things do not go well with them when they don't."
Wow, so they truly believe that if they behave according to what they think God wants (even if they have no way of knowing that they are right - there are actually 3000 versions of the Bible and many more ways of interpreting it) things will go their way? And you say that things didn't go well for them when they didn't follow his ways. So that means that they believe that when bad things happen to people they "deserve" it. Yikes. I feel really sad for other people like them who have something terrible happen - they must be filled with guilt and not even necessarily know why.
IMHO they weren't debt free before Josie because they were indebted to their daughter's for all the free labour.
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Well said! I understand that kids have to tow the line in the house, but I think the Duggars crossed the line along time ago.
Celestie said...
I have an old house with quality old hardwood floors. The last time i had them refinished the gentleman told me, it was the last time they could be done. Even hardwood can only be sanded so far. Yes, it gets scratched if furniture or other things are dragged are dragged across it, so we don't. I'm not sure i would want roller rink floors in my house. it is a different look.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but years ago on one of the early Duggar shows or specials, didn't they take a trip to California? Along the way, they stayed in a hotel and rather trashed the rooms. As I recalled, they were rather cavalier about it. Anyone remember this?
2/23/2010 10:58 AM
It wasn't the Duggars. I just re-watched their trip west, we saw them check in the hotel room @Disney Land, and that was all we saw. On the other hand Table for 12 (episode road trip part 2) they went to Canada, and spent a couple of nights in a Hotel and they were bouncing on the beds, running from room to room, and being 5 rather busy 4.5 year old children. They had an Easter egg hunt in a dinning area after they came back from church... could this be the show you are talking about? (I only saw 2-3 of J&K+8 so I don't know if it was that show or not)
Ohio Buckeye--
I believe that the end of Cyn's comment was "...They will mourn their loss, and so will her siblings, but the Duggars would use their grief to grow closer to God not draw away...."
The Duggars have repeatedly said in interviews that they understand that every second they have with Josie is a gift from G-d. They are well aware that it's a day to day fight for her survival.
Insurance set aside, I bet TLC is footing the NICU bill.
-Lauren
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Any children born to the duggars are automatically covered under their insurance policy.
The older ones, (18 and older), I am not sure about.
My kids that age are still covered due to them being full-time college students.
Since he has said he buys a policy that is inexpensive I would guess he buys single plans for the adult children still living at home. High deductible plans for them wouldn't cost very much as they appear to be healthy, or he may be able to lump the 2 or 3 of them into a group plan, or add them with the family and create a group plan. I doubt they are covered by TLC as they aren't employees of TLC directly and Jim Bob has commented on insurance many times. Of course it's also possible that since John-David now has his own business that he is now responisble for his own coverage. It's all really speculation.
Since John David owns the towing business he could buy his own insurance, if his sister(s) did the books they could be then considered employers thus creating a 'group'.
High deductibles, with 'group' insurance, and they are healthy and in their 20's. They would pay way less than most of us pay. Or would even dream of paying. LOL how many of us paid for or had health insurance when we were in college or just out?... That wasn't employer paid for?
@Ohio The sentence right after my comment was that had something happened to Josie they would use that grief to draw closer to God. James (New Testament not the child) teaches that God sends trials and tribulations to us to draw us closer to Him. The Duggars firmly believe this as evidenced through the tiring time they are going through now. They are not blaming God or railing at him they are thanking Him instead. That fact alone makes everything the Duggars have said about being on TV as an encouragement to others ring loud and true. As bible believing Christians they have showed their faith in God is strong, and that no matter what happens they will not waver in the one truth they hold dear above all others: God is in control of their lives. 1Th 3:7-8 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith: 8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord. (KJV which is what bible the Duggars use.)
As you can see we've requested people not respond to individuals personally. This is not a chat room to carry on personal discussions even if it is about the Duggars. Also please do not submit comments quoting multiple people. They get very confusing. It is not necessary to quote who said what merely the statement to which you are responding. Thanks!
Wow, so they truly believe(snipped for space) things will go their way?
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No, what I said was that (they believe) God will bless them; true bible believing Christians do not think their life will be a bed of roses if they simply follow some set of rules. They simply have a true and abiding faith that through all of life's ups and downs God will be there cheering when it's good and a shoulder to cry and lean on when it's bad. 2Cr 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight 1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(snipped for space) So that means that they believe that when bad things happen to people they "deserve" it.
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That wasn't what I said or what I implied or what the Duggars have ever said or implied. I meant exactly what I said that when they didn't talk to God first, or to each other and made some decision it usually came out bad for them. So they have learned that things are better for them when they talk to each other, pray and seek God's wisdom.
Example:
JimBob bought a sign for one of his businesses a very expensive sign, he didn't talk to Michelle first, didn't pray about it just went ahead and did it... Next strong wind that came through ... 10K lay scattered over the parking lot. On the other hand when he talked to Michelle, prayed about it and sought God's wisdom in the decision they saved over 50k (right off the bat) and over 100K in the long run, by not buying a tanker truck.
Example 2:
Another way they have learned this is when Michelle didn't talk to God about her reproductive life; her & JimBob decided they knew better and went back on the pill after Josh they had a miscarriage; but when they prayed about it, discussed it among themselves, and talked to other 'elders' and decided God needed to be in control of that area of their life as well they had twins, and went on to have 16 more (Josh + twins+ the other 16 = 19)
They have never said anyone deserves bad things to happen. Simply that when they walk outside of faith, things don't go as well for them and it tends to make them stop and try and figure out where they left the path God has chosen for them. 1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck.
Again all emphasis on their personal walk with God, not another's...
PS I'm going to drop this here as the moderators have said this is not the place for a biblical debate, and they are correct. It is on the other hand a place to state what the Duggars believe, and this I think, I have done, but if we continue it will turn into a faith debate, and not a Duggar discussion.
Regarding debt as a gift from the prior discussion:
No Dave has never said wait on having kids till you get out of debt, but he has said that if you are in debt you might want to wait on having the 5th or 6th one, till you get out of debt.
Again I do respectfully point out the Duggars JimBob in particular has said pretty much the exact same things about debt and children since the first special aired.
I went to the People article and this is direct quote of what JimBob said "People see debt as a gift, and children as a burden" "We see debt as a burden and children as a gift."
It appears that none of us on this particular blog see children as a burden but there are some that do, the foster care system is full and over flowing with children that some of their parents thought they were a burden so they gave the kids to the state. The streets in the large cities are full of runaway children most of which no one is even looking for.
There are quite a few people that use debt to give themselves things which last time I looked was the definition of the word gift. (something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned).
They swipe the card, pull money out of the house, take out helocs and the rest to PAY for things they want now now now, instead of waiting, saving up the money and paying for them. Or they take out the second or third mortgage to pay off those "high interest cards", or to "lower the monthly payments" then turn right around and run those cards RIGHT back up.
DID JimBob put it badly... Obviously or people wouldn't be as upset, but at the same time it is almost word for word what he has been saying for the last 4-5 years, worded slightly different here and there but the same exact concept.
One person's 'encouragement to others ringing true' is another's proof that the Duggars turn more off to religion than vice versa.
Since John David owns the towing business he could buy his own insurance, if his sister(s) did the books they could be then considered employers thus creating a 'group'.
ooooopsss I meant "employEE's" I got distracted when typing it, answering a home school question then didn't proof read before I posted.
If John David pays any of his sisters as regular employees, then they could qualify for group health. That would mean regular paychecks, with appropriate payroll tax deductions. John David, as the employer, would also be responsible for making the appropriate payroll tax deposits monthly.
If he chooses to hire one or two of his siblings as employees, more power to him. Is the towing business doing well enough to pay not only his own business owners salary, but enough for one or two part-time employees as well?
Not to mention, the cost for the monthly insurance premium?
From what I've been able to glean so far, Arkansas may still have some of the lower cost health premiums around. But watch out, because insurance companies are raising rates right up through the roof all across this country, and I'm sure it will soon happen in Arkansas as well.
Re insurance in AR-
I found out the other day while watching "Good Morning America" that Arkansas is one of a few (12?) states that regulates insurance premiums. When a company wants to increase their rates it has to be approved by a panel, that could explain the low rates.
I have done insurance on the doctor side of it and the employer side of it most (90%) will cover a child until they are 18 or 21 if they are not in school and will go as old as 25 if they are in school full time.
When I worked at a large nursing home company and handled insurance for facilities in different states when children were on the policy the rates were the same for one or 15 or 20. That was about 10 years ago though and things could have changed.
IMO they are not getting a deal for free care for advertisement. ACH is an excellent hospital. A several years ago it was featured on a series that was by NBC. It is regularly name one of the top children's hospitals in the United State. In short they don't need the advertisement.
...had something happened to Josie they would use that grief to draw closer to God. James (New Testament not the child) teaches that God sends trials and tribulations to us to draw us closer to Him. The Duggars firmly believe this as evidenced through the tiring time they are going through now. They are not blaming God or railing at him they are thanking Him instead.
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I agree that the Duggar parents and the other eighteen children may acquire valuable lessons about their faith if Josie dies, but what about Josie herself? Doesn't she deserve to stick around for some life lessons of her own? I really have trouble believing that one person dies so others may learn from that death; that happened only once in history, and that was with the crucifixion of Christ.
Poor Josie. Her parents knew the risks in conceiving, bearing, and giving birth to her, and yet they went ahead. While I feel sympathy for anyone who has to watch his or her child suffer, I worry much more about Josie's "trying" time than about her selfish parents'.
ACH is an excellent hospital. A several years ago it was featured on a series that was by NBC.
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I watched every episode of that series and was disappointed that it didn't go on longer than it did. I was impressed with both the vast knowledge and the caring attitude of the entire staff. I'm glad Josie has been under their supervision.
I was watching a rerun a few days ago. The Duggars were visiting Michelle's family. It was a few years ago. Her older sister was explaining how she was 12 when Michelle was born and that she would be 56 soon. Doesn't that mean Michelle was 44 a few years ago and is 46-47 now? Could they be saying she is a year younger than JimBob (43 and 44) when Michelle is actually a few yrs older? This could be why she was surprised to be pregnant so fast with number 19.
"... I really have trouble believing that one person dies so others may learn from that death... Poor Josie. Her parents knew the risks in conceiving, bearing, and giving birth to her, and yet they went ahead. While I feel sympathy for anyone who has to watch his or her child suffer, I worry much more about Josie's "trying" time than about her selfish parents'.
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I agree and this is one of the main reasons I do not find the Duggars at all inspiring or 'encouraging'.
I also worry about the possibility (likelihood?) of subsequent pregnancies and their outcomes for these poor fetuses if these parents remain so misguided as to be open to another pregnancy at this juncture.
I'm not afraid to admit that I would MUCH rather take a trip to Aruba (or anywhere tropical for that matter) then have anymore kids.
Michelle Annette Duggar (née Ruark) - born September 13, 1966 She'll be 44 this year.
SO- my baby died when born at 21 weeks. Does that mean God is not watching over me, or wasn't over her? I am not as "worthy" as The DUggars? NO
Also this is about the boards BUT in this case, please?? The ongoing thread/discussion re. the insurance rates and different plans you all know about is B*O*r*I* g
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So the Duggars believe that God "opens and closes the womb" as it says in the Bible. If they really believe that, then they will do nothing to prevent future pregnancies. They will not see Josie's premature birth as a sign to quit having children. They will believe that if God doesn't want them to have any more children, then Michelle will not get pregnant. I see there prolife idiology as a progression: humans are created in the image of God by God, every human is an eternal being, every human has the potential of knowing and serving God, God values all human life which begins at conception, birth control may prevent implantation of a feltilized egg so therefore it is "abortive" in nature and must be avoided, God opens and closes the womb so that each child created is a "blessing" from God and therefore is seen as His will. For them now to change their minds (by using their brains) would completely undo their belief system. It would be like saying that God doesn't have the ability to close Michelle's womb and prevent any more children without their "help.". It would be, for them, hypocritical to believe that God couldn't prevent future pregnancies.
I feel for Michelle. Regaurdless of how you feel about this family and their motives, they are real people who love this child. To sit by as a parent and watch your child struggle to live and be unable to do anything is tourture. It maybe her 19th child, but I am sure she loves her and wants the best outcome possible for her. I don't understand the idea that since she's had so many children then somehow she is unable to love her children as much a someone who only has 2 or 3. My grandmother had 14. She often says that when she was pregnant, she would sometimes wonder how she could love another child as much as the ones she already had, but then the baby would be born and she would get to know this new unique person and fall in love all over again.
I don't doubt that Michelle loves Josie just as much as she has loved her other babies. There is plenty of evidence that Michelle loves her babies. What she doesn't seem to care quite so much about is her toddlers, preschoolers, elementary aged children, tween, teens....
Happy Day #80 everyone !
To explain, since the Duggars don't hide the fact that the follow some biblical teaching to abstain from sexual relations for 80 days after the birth of a baby girl, I'd just like to point out that today, February 28th, is Day #80 after the birth of preemie Josie.
And since the Duggars have let the entire world know their most intimate details (no birth control, leave it up to god to close the womb, conception date of Josie, i.e. Father's Day).....I fully expect that there will be Pregnancy Announcement #20 very, very soon.
St. Patrick's Day is coming up, maybe we'll hear that instead of tossing back a green beer and fixing some corned beef & cabbage, they Duggars celebrated St. Pat's Day by "letting God decide" (i.e. they're helping god by doing it like rabbits while little Josie clings to life in the NICU).
[The Duggars believe that] God opens and closes the womb so that each child created is a "blessing" from God and therefore is seen as His will.
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Is Josie being blessed? While her parents are feeding their addiction to sex and procreation (and to fame and fortune), the poor baby may be facing an illness-ridden life or even a foreshortened one. What is in it for her? It's not all about her short-sighted and selfish parents, but they certainly don't seem to realize that.
I think I am the only one even knowing that it is day #80, that we will not hear any pregnancy annoucement soon.
Rememeber Michelle looked shocked about having #19 being so close to #18. Also #17 and #18 were her furthest apart.
I also think Jim Bob is more savy then we think. He knows for the first time there is more scrutiny of his family and thier beliefs, and he knows if they go for #20 right away , the show might loose viewers and they might get less freebies. Maybe the idea of losing money will help with his self control!
I kind of feel if we do hear #20 is on the way it will be after Josie is at home and we are told she is doing well.
I know that this is not the popular opinion but I can't help feeling that Josie will almost surely be glad to have been born.
Im sure everyone wants the best for josie and no doubt Michelle loves all her children. But heres the thing. Large families were quiet common in times past when no birth control was avialable. Abstaining and and menopause were about the only way to prevent it. Women died often in child birth leaving several children to be cared for by siblings or other relatives. Large families didnt imply they were happy.
Again, I dont beleive anyone sees debt a gift. Yes there are those who swipe cards and run up credit cards to have finer things. Then there are those who keep putting children in the world without regarding the quality of life for the children they have. The quality diminishes with each child. This is a darker side of the 'leave it to God' mindset you never see.
"We don't NEED 'air jordons' we NEED shoes.
We don't NEED 'Calvin Kliene" we NEED clothing that will fit the weather.
We don't NEED brand name food items, we NEED food.
We don't NEED a cell phone.
We don't NEED the internet.
We don't NEED a NEW car. An old junker that has rust spots on the body, the top is peeling, and so forth will get you from point a to point b it just won't LOOK/ SMELL as nice.
If you live where there is public transportation you don't NEED a car at all (it's just nice to have)
We don't NEED that 500,000.00 house we NEED a roof over our heads."
And why is everyones lifestyle a concern to Jimbob. I tried my best to be debt free myself but it is impossibe. I just dont like the attitude behind "Debt is a gift and children are burdens" It comes across as morally superior. I dont really need tv but without it you couldnt see theier show.
I second that "unpopular" opinion! Yes, I'm sure Josie will be very glad she was born into the world! And I don't believe the Duggar children's "quality of life" is greatly diminished because they were born into a large family. You may not agree with their beliefs or the way they raise their children, but these kids are loved, cared for, and have a safe enviroment. They also probably spend MORE time with their parents than most children do.
In last week's episode, much was said about Jessa being with Michelle while she was pumping. IMO it appeared that the film crew may have interrupted some of that one on one time between Jessa and her mom. Just because we don't see it, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I watch the Duggars and I have not had cable in 2 years. We own a TV simply because it was bought for us, the children own a few games systems they earned the money to pay for, and the g'parents bought the tv for them to play on. We have the internet for our jobs. We haven't had a car payment in 10 years... why? Because we made the choice to save up and pay cash for them.
Debt free is not impossible, hard for some maybe. Millions are debt free, and thousands more are learning it's better to be that way.
It's simply a matter of choice. I haven't had a credit card in over 12 years, contrary to popular opinion you do not need one. A debit card will do everything a credit card will do. My credit score is ZERO, a fact I am quite proud of. We bought a house without a credit score (its calle manual underwriting), we buy insurance with out a credit score, we buy cell phones with out credit scores... Just because something is a popular idea (ie you must have credit to live) does not make it a fact.
BTW we have done all the above living on less than 30k a year feeding, and housing 7 people for over 5 years (after that the number of children starts dropping off but then again so did the yearly salary) and no debt (other than the house which will be gone in 5 years).
What always amazes me personally is how a 4 person family with yearly salaries double, or even triple ours can not stay out of debt... Are the 'Air Jordans' really worth all that hassle?
Thank you to all the people who realize that not all people in Arkansas are like the Duggars. People like that make the perpetuate the Hillbilly image Arkansas has. The accomplishments of many great Arkansans are overlooked.
Jim Bob was in the State Senate, but he ran more than once for the National Senate. He used that picture of the family dressed in red holding violins as his campaign picture. (I got SO sick of it lol)
My wish is that JB would stay in his home state (wherever he had happened to live) and off tv. His brand of down home (any state) 'wisdom' is farsical.
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I realize that you were speaking of a certain mindset and not of a specific place. I'm truly sorry if my remarks came across as a criticism of parts of your post. I should have prefaced my note more nearly gracefully.
Oh, and when I speak to anyone of Ohio--and I, as a well-traveled person, sometimes do--I always remark that Columbus has one of the best skylines in this country!
btw he lost in the primary election not the general election
Some people have debt, and not because of Air Jordans, but because they had a health catastrophe, or a spouse lost a job. It is very, very easy in this country to be one paycheck away from poverty, and that isn't because people are living above their means, just that food, rent, transportation, and health care are so expensive here.
A little compassion goes a long way. That 'pull yourself up by your bootstrap" mentality really doesn't apply to a lot of people who have debt or have lost their homes. Some yes. Many, no.
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