Interesting Discussion Point

While looking for something else this morning, I found this gem.  It doesn't exactly match my belief system but I thought since it directly contradicts Gothard it would be interesting.  It's part of a headcovering discussion, so why if Gothard doesn't allow women to wear pants (Old Covenant) does he not require head coverings which are mentioned in the New Testament? 

We, as Christians, are no longer under the Old Covenant Law, the Law of Moses, but under the commands that Jesus gives us in the New Testament. However, this is one place where these denominational groups go back to the Old Covenant Law and require people to follow the Old Covenant Law.This myth is based on Deuteronomy 22:5 and an incorrect translation that women are not to wear men's clothing. The word "man" in that verse is the Hebrew word for warrior. The Hebrew word translated "pertaineth" actually means "apparatus, armor, artillery, etc". The verse is prohibiting women from being part of the army and prohibiting a warrior from disguising himself as a woman.
It is amazing that the myth that Christian men and women should wear distinctive clothing styles has persisted because in Bible times it was not practiced that way. In both the Old Testament and the New Testament times, the men and the women wore very similar clothing styles. Even if this command in the Old Testament was prohibiting women from wearing men's clothing, it would no longer apply to us as Christians because we are no longer under the Old Testament Law. That command in Deuteronomy 22:5 was not restated in the New Testament. In the New Testament, neither Christian men nor Christian women are to be part of the military.

26 comments:

Alberta Rose said...

Pick and choose? Seriously, I find that for most religions it's about spiritual practice, not spiritiual principles. Outside of this blog, I rarely hear Gothard mentioned; however, men like Billy Graham and Dr. James Dobson are better known. All three "preach the word", but Billy Graham and Dr. James Dobson are more about spreading the word then a way of dressing.

Seriously? said...

IMO it speaks very poorly of the uber conservative Christians like the Duggars, Bates, Gothard, Inc., et al, that they conceive of a god who is so very petty & without logic (& BTW, the conservative Christian 'we cannot understand god's ways' mantra anytime this theological mindset defies common sense and logic explains NOTHING).

A god that wants worship and demands the mindless, unquestioning adherence to such nonsensical tenets as 'letting god decide' the number of children' and a gender-based designation patriarchal 'leader' and his ever obedient follower makes ZERO sense.

NO WONDER they homeschool - with such an obvious inability for critical thinking skills, only the simplest curriculum (like Gothard) can be intellectually mastered by these people.

These people embarrass me as an American. Fat, dumb, 'happy' - the true Ugly American.

JMO.

ennvee said...

Gothard's 49 Character Traits, and the numerous other lists are extra-biblical and even when a verse is used to justify something like activity vs. sloth, it is twisted or taken out of context to fit his worldview of YOU CAN'T.

Simply put, that's what ATI/IBLP boils down to: what you CANNOT do, ie. read "normal" books or go to "normal" movies because they might lead you down a path of sin, wear certain clothing because you may stir up someone else's lust, listen to music with a beat because it will stir up your OWN desires, etc.

It's all about fear and control. That DESTROYS lives; look at Josh with his social media and eating. He's like an addict who can't get enough of his drug once he was free to be his own patriarch. I really feel for Anna if they continue to follow Gothard. If she's pregnant, as we all suspect, that's 3 kids under age 3 and she'll likely be knocked up again by Christmas by a guy who is a fat, lazy slob who would be living in a van by the river if not for Daddy's largesse in setting up the Prince in business to make the family appear to be succeeding in Gothard's plan.

All they're really succeeding in doing is populating the US (and nominally other places) with increasingly under/un-educated children who will be a drain on an already stressed society as they are forced to go out among the "wolves" and find real work when an area can't sustain anymore used car dealerships, tow services, tree cutters, etc. because your 500 sons are all working in the family "ministry."

Alberta Rose said...

Given that one of the Catholic tenets is "Family size by God's design", Gothard isn't the only one who indulges in the nonsensical tenets, although he does take a step further. Gothard definitely isn't the first, nor will he be the last one to take to an extrem something from a major religion. Also, if my husband and I hadn't let God decide my family size, I would have gone on fertility drugs in an attempt to conceive a second child. By the time our son was three, we realized why God guided us to only have one child. It may be hard to understand why some people choose to let God be their guide but it is a freely made choice, just as going to an OB for birth control pills or an Abortionist to removed the developing cells is a freely made choice.

Wampascat said...

I would sincerely be interested to know how Jim Bob and Michelle became so deeply indoctrinated in Gothardism. I don't think either of their families subscribe to the same beliefs. Does anyone know how it all began with them?

Leah said...

If anybody picks and chooses, it's Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. When Jesus said that you commit adultery by lusting after a woman, he was making the point that its nearly impossible to find salvation through the law. That's why he came here. So why the Duggars feel the need to choose certain laws from the old testament to follow, I'll never know. (no pork, only skirts on women, certain days of sexual abstinence each month, etc). There are a lot of dietary rules in the old testament, but apparently the Duggars only choose to follow the "no pork" one. Why? I am happy that Michelle cares about character in her kids, it just seems like the "character" they harp on is so skewed. I would much rather have a respectfully punctual daughter wearing pants than a rude, duggar-time daughter wearing an approved long skirt.

sandi said...

Re: I would sincerely be interested to know how Jim Bob and Michelle became so deeply indoctrinated in Gothardism. I don't think either of their families subscribe to the same beliefs. Does anyone know how it all began with them?

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They won't say,other than naming a so-called Christian Dr. who told them the pill is what caused Michelle to miscarry,and that can't possibly be true,as taking the pill even after one has concieved will NOT cause one to miscarry.If if did,then there would be abortion clinics at all.And I have links to prove that Dr's say the pill will not cause one to abort,in the instance that a pregnancy does still occur,and that isn't often.The info Michelle has on her page is talking about the pill preventing a fertilized egg from implanting,which is totally different,and besides that,it might not implant anyway.There is no way of knowing.it is simply the potential for life.IOW-any Dr who would tell such a lie has an agenda at hand,and he/she should be reprimanded, if not thrown out, of the medical profession for ever guilt-tripping a patient with such a blantant lie to begin with.And shame on Jim Bob and Michelle for repeating it.There is enough info on the web nowadays to show they are lying about it.Putting down chemical forms of birth control is nothing short of a political agenda,plain and simple.JMO.

Seriously? said...

Gothard, unmarried and childless, but this doesn't keep him from acting as if he has all the answers to family life. What a joke.

Here's just one of the Gothard mindset that makes no sense: if you are going to 'trust god' to makes decisions for you, WHY, then, supplement with progesterone? Trust is trust - if that is your mantra, then truly 'leave it to god' to determine if a pregnancy happens and allow that pregnancy to run its course naturally, whatever that may be.

For Catholics, rhythm is allowed. Again, if open to god's will, WHY use ANY method of birth control?

And the biggie for me is WHY conceive of a god who creates the human species to have a brain, and yet want that species to proactively NOT USE that god-given brain, so as to fluff the ego of a god who seems to want/need to test faith? I'd hope for better behavior from a human than THIS concept of a god.

The lack of logic is laughable. And the pat answer whenever the leap of logic happens is 'we humans can't possibly understand the ways of god'. This is code for 'we know our beliefs make no sense but don't confuse us with deep questions - we want to feel all righteous and hold on to our hope that we will get bonus morality points for having faith even when our religious concepts fail the logic sniff test.'

Seriously? said...

Another point is that the Duggars seem to think THEY define 'strong family'.

WHO SAYS a 'strong family' is one that pops out a baby every year and a half? WhO SAYS 'strong family' is one that teaches patriarchy rather than give females equal respect and power? WHO SAYS under educating one's children and proactively encouraging them to never, ever think beyond the Gothard nonsensical tenets, instead couraging them to always blindly, questioningly follow, sheeplike?

It's my opinion that it is the Duggars and those of their mindset that fail to measure up to 'strong family' values.

sandi said...

Re: WHO SAYS a 'strong family' is one that pops out a baby every year and a half? WhO SAYS 'strong family' is one that teaches patriarchy rather than give females equal respect and power? WHO SAYS under educating one's children and proactively encouraging them to never, ever think beyond the Gothard nonsensical tenets, instead couraging them to always blindly, questioningly follow, sheeplike?

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Gothard is nothing short of a false Christ if you ask me,and I've no idea why the Duggars (nor anyone else) would be so willing to just follow him blindly.

Elvira said...

http://www.home-school.com/Articles/patriarchy-meet-matriarchy.html

Interesting read.

February said...

My strong family is a matriarch. My husband loves my strength. My girls have no idea that being a female means submission. That is a strong family.

Alberta Rose said...

Again, eye of the beholder. Some people think I'm strong for believing God only wanted us to have one child, other's think I'm weak. Some people think I'm strong for realizing I need A.A. to stay sober, others think I'm weak and not letting my baptism soak through. I see a great deal of strength in the Duggar family and putting the "Fun" in Fundamentalist. I'm sure other people prefer to focus on a different part of the word Fundamentalist.

I know of other Christians like the Duggar family. I have notice, though, regardless of who or what you believe in, no one adheres 100% I know of atheists who have no problem doing volunteer work in a church and Christians who won't set foot in a church outside their denomination. That's why I'm glad to see the Duggars going to different churches, ranging from a rural church in a rental house to a big fancy church in town and having "home away from home" churches at the various places they visit on a regular basis.

sandi said...

>My strong family is a matriarch. My husband loves my strength. My girls have no idea that being a female means submission. That is a strong family.

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Same here,and that is why I get so (almost literally) sick when i see the Duggar and Bates girls,like Erin who is wonderfully talented on the piano.If she were my daughter,she would have been allowed to accept the music scholarship and she would be in a good college getting a good education.And Jill,we saw how smart she was a what a good caregiver she was with Josie.She had the medical lingo down and she knew all the jargon that goes along with it (I used to be a nurse so I noticed what all she knew).I think she would make a wonderful nurse and again,I would have allowed her to go to nursing school and she'd be out on the floor working by now.There is no power in unempowering any woman who truly has the desire and talent to give the world so much more than they have been allowed to give.JMO.

sandi said...

And I meant to add,Josh would have been encourged to follow his drems of becoming a lawyer,if he truly wished,and he would have had the education to be able to enter a real law school,and not some online course where he is never going to attain that point.JMO.

tulip said...

Jim Bob and Michelle always speak in the context of assuming all their "girls" will get married. What will happen if one or more of the girls still haven't married by say the age of 30, or even at all? Will they be "allowed" to go out on their own and actually have their own life as a single, independent woman, or will they still have to live at home? Is there an age they've decided that if the girls aren't married, they can finally move out and stop being a "buddy"? It's all so legalistic, not to mention it's obvious it's more about what Gothard says than what God says.

February said...

Some people think I'm strong for believing God only wanted us to have one child, other's think I'm weak. Some people think I'm strong for realizing I need A.A. to stay sober, others think I'm weak and not letting my baptism soak through.
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But that is my point. Being strong is encouraging growth and choices then choosing your own path with the support of your family. Having a man being designated as your leader takes away choices. Encouraging growth

sandi said...

>Jim Bob and Michelle always speak in the context of assuming all their "girls" will get married. What will happen if one or more of the girls still haven't married by say the age of 30, or even at all? Will they be "allowed" to go out on their own and actually have their own life as a single, independent woman, or will they still have to live at home? Is there an age they've decided that if the girls aren't married, they can finally move out and stop being a "buddy"? It's all so legalistic, not to mention it's obvious it's more about what Gothard says than what God says.
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Yes,I certainly hope they're out of there by the time they're 40,married or not.By then, they will have (hopefully) figured out that it's not harmful to meet a guy for coffee, or even go out to dinner and a movie without a chaparone.
If any of the girls do move out though,I'm guessing they would be expected to live with another girl,rather than be on their one.I don't know,just guessing here.

londonbridges said...

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. In my opinion, the Duggar blessings are wasting the intelligence that God gave them. There is no choice for growth and independence especially for the female blessings.

JimBob and Michelle have stated many times that the girls are trained to be wives and mommies. What if they don't marry, or are unable to bear children? Will these female(s) live at home and be dependent on their parents? Just curious.

FleeGothard said...

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but there was a very interesting book written which exposes the underbelly of Gothard's teaching, organization, and methods. It's not widely circulated, but Amazon does carry it. No e-book yet, but a worthwhile purchase if you want to find more reasons to be skeptical of Gothard. Helped me a lot, I used to think his model for courtship was the bible inspired way to go, and in time realized how false it is.

A Matter of Principles,
By Don Veinot, Joy Veinot and Ron Henzel.

SC said...

If women are held to the dressing principles of the Old Testament, then men should similarly have to wear long "dresses" and long hair.

sandi said...

>If women are held to the dressing principles of the Old Testament, then men should similarly have to wear long "dresses" and long hair.
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I agree.Long hair and long beards for the guys,and sandals and long smocks for them as well,like the prophets and others wore in those days.What's good for the goose is good for the gander,so to speak.

hawgfan said...

I attended the same church (FBC Springdale) that JimBob and Michelle did in the 70's and 80's. My parents even went to a Gothard's Youth Conflicts seminar, although I don't ever remember being told what they thought of it. For whatever reason, my family thankfully did not go that route. (Many families were caught up in the teachings). In the last few weeks, I have been researching the Bill Gothard site and have found so many things that I remember learning or hearing at that church. I think some of it was from the pulpit and some from Sunday School teachers. Basically, that the husband is the umbrella of protection against Satan. There was another family in the church who also followed Bill Gothard....no birth control, home educating, dresses for the females (actually it was denim jumpers back then). I also recognize many of the books that are promoted on the Gothard site...Growing Kids God's Way, The Way Home and others. I am grateful that my husband and I did not go the ATI way. We do home educate and have many similiar beliefs as JimBob and Michelle...but from my research, I truly believe they are involved in a cult like religion. (Someone asked how the Duggars got started in this in the first place...hope this helps!)

Colleen said...

I think we need to remember that the Duggars, like anyone of any faith, are human. They will choose what parts of the Bible work for them. All Christians do this. Anyone of any faith will do this.

Colleen said...

Response to Tulip(4/4/2012, asking if the Duggar daughters don't marry will they be allowed to leave home)-

I don't know. A close example would be the the daughters of the West family; http://homestead-blessings.com/, from what I understand the daughters aren't married, the oldest is in her late 30s and they all live at home.

Er hm said...

Picking and choosing and taking things out of context isn't really a hallmark of Christianity. It's more a mark that they follow Gothard more than Christ.