Duggars in People and Star August 23, 2010 Issues

Link to the People article: http://www.people.com... Link to the People article:



Online article here.

Link to Star.

I don't know about the Duggars, but if my wife and baby almost died, that would be a message from God for a vasectomy (since they obviously enjoy sex) or actually PRACTICE NBC; their rules actually BEG for a horny husband during the abstinence for 4 to 5 days each month of the cycle and 7 day cleansing. No wonder he's such a horndog and it's set up to be pretty much right at ovulation time.

It's no wonder they have so many kids.

Post from Suzie edited.

126 comments:

Anonymous said...

""Our family is stronger than ever," Jim Bob, 45, tells PEOPLE in its new issue."

I think JimBob misspoke. He meant to say that his libido is stronger than ever.

Iliketheduggars said...

They've had 18 easy births and one difficult one. Easy (for them) to believe it was an aberration.

I wonder if her OB will take them this time (liability and all), or whether any doctors exercise a choice in the matter. Are doctors allowed or willing to say "No, you've had too many, I won't oversee any more pregnancies"?

Anonymous said...

I would mostly certainly think a doctor could tell a patient that won't care for them.

I wouldn't consider all the other births easy considering she has had what 5 or so c-sections. I wouldn't call a c-section easy.

Iliketheduggars said...

They were easy and fairly routine procedures compared to preeclampsia and HELPP, gestational diabetes, ruptured placenta, or any number of other things that can go wrong during pregnancy.

I've maintained for a long time that a big reason they keep having kids and have stayed so true to their philosophy is that pregnancy, childbirth, and even parenting have been a relative breeze for JimBob and Michelle. Of course, now it's harder to go back and change their minds, given their public pronouncements, but do I think they would have kept with Quiverfull if Josie's birth had happened with a few of the early ones? Not likely. They've shown they can use their heads and divert from Gothard nonsense once in awhile; in the case of childbirth, however, they just haven't had to... yet.

Jen said...

"Are doctors allowed or willing to say "No, you've had too many, I won't oversee any more pregnancies"?
------------------------------------
I believe that doctors (except maybe at public health clinics) can say I won't take you on as a patient.
If you show up in labor, hospitals have to take you and a doctor is assigned you.

Anonymous said...

Josie was very complicated and extreme but that doesn't make the other ones easy. Just about any pregnancy compared to Josie's would appear easy but that doesn't make them so. I had a complicated pregnancy that compared to Josie's was a walk in the park, but in reality looking at it individually, it wasn't.

mythoughtis said...

If I remember correctly, Michelle had to go doctor-shopping a few pregnancies ago because she wanted to continue with natural births after C-secations. When multiple doctors tell you No, then you should listen. And, she's had at least 2 more C-sections since those early episodes.

Iliketheduggars said...

Except that she didn't listen, she had at least one more natural birth in addition to the c-sections, and everybody was fine until Josie.

The VBAC controversy is fairly common, actually. Lots of women opt for a vaginal birth after a c-section, and lots of doctors, particularly older ones, don't like it, even though everyone admits we have way too many c-sections in this country and VBACs generally turn out okay.

So that doesn't surprise me; I just wonder if it's considered ethical (or legal) for a doctor to refuse to treat Michelle simply because he doesn't agree with their (lack of) family planning. Seems like it wouldn't.

Anonymous said...

I just really wonder if instead of the Duggars coming right out and announcing a pregnancy if they are slowly introducing it through People and the Today show before revealing it. I really wouldn't be surprised if Michelle is indeed already pregnant.

I take anything from The Star with a grain of salt. I do not believe Jana told the Star that she was having difficulties or attitudes with some members of the family. It just doesn't seem like something she would tell a rag mag, true or not. Also it says they wash all the clothes that they make. Well we know they wash all the clothes but they certainly are not making them anymore.

jonandkatewho? said...

Wow. I wonder if that comment from Jana was actually what she said?

I'd like to think so, in a way. while it might be difficult to feel the way the comment suggests, it might actually help her to break free one day and refuse to be unpaid labor (or paid some say) for her parents.

Anonymous said...

I'm an OB/GYN and I WOULD NOT take Michelle as a patient. When I became a doctor I took an oath and promised to "do no harm". It deeply saddens me that JB/M don't seem to be happy with the 19 children they have. Being a woman, I understand the desire to have children but IMO they are just asking for further health problems. Does anyone know if Michelle does any type of pre-natal screening (for example Down's)? For any woman at advanced maternal age I always recommend screening.

Anonymous said...

I think I remember them saying they do not do screening because it wouldn't change what they would do anyway. I understand not wanting to abort but I think being prepared would be helpful.

Suzie said...

That quote from Jana was from a podcast last fall regarding the Gothard retreat the older girls and Priscilla Keller attended in Wisconsin. It's basically one of those "find your 'weakness' and be guilted out of it for a week" kind of deals. As I recall, Jinger's "problem" was vanity. Enywho, the Star took it out of context (surprise), but until Jana was packing to go on the big trip, she has not looked very happy, even after they returned from said retreat.

As far as "easy" pregnancies, didn't Michelle say on one of the episodes last week that Jed/Jer came 5 weeks early and one of them suffered a collapsed lung? Her pregnancy itself may have been "easy," but she still had two premies, albeit 5 lbs. vs. Josie. Don't forget, she also had pre-ecampsia with Jana/JD, but it much closer to term.

I stick to my poorly punctuated post that leads out this thread: I strongly believe that at age 43 (44 next month), Michelle really needs to shut it down and try to mother the ones she has and enjoy baby Mack (hopefully J&A got away to LR a few times during the family's stay) and other grandkids when they come.

Anonymous said...

If Michelle gets pregnant again, I highly doubt any doctor would let her try a VBAC again. Correct me if I'm wrong (since I didn't watch the birth), but didn't she have an emergency c-section with Josie? The cut and surgery is completely different and in general, doctors will not support a Vaginal birth after one because of greater risk of uterine rupture. I think she would really have to shop around for that one.

Reality TV Junkie said...

From STAR article:

"A weary Jana is beginning to crack under the pressure. “For the past few months, I’ve just really been struggling with attitudes toward different family members,” Jana admits, saying she has asked the Lord to help her find strength."
---------------
Was that really from her? I hope one day she does (figuratively) crack and cannot handle her current life anymore. Michelle and Jim Bob really should listen to her. And help her become happier. Ignorance is not good parenting. A good parent would help her.(But we do not know whether right now she is, she might for all we know). I just hope Jana does find strength from the Lord to become a better and happier person.

Judy said...

Michelle already had to try to find a doctor who would let her VBAC after two sections -- the first set of twins and Jackson. That was when she found the doctor she used for the baby after Jackson-- Amy Sarver, I think her name is. Then she had a vaginal delivery and then two csections in a row, I think. After the third section (because the baby was transverse, which is not an uncommon problem in moms who've had multiple pregnancies), I'm going to guess she was searching for someone to let her VBAC for Josie because she a) went to the emergency room when she was in pain in December, never mentioned calling her doctor first and b)she didn't know the sex of the baby at that point, when she was 25 weeks along, which is late for her, making me wonder if she'd had no or very limited prenatal care at that point. I could be wrong.

I do know a woman who had three sections and refused to have another. She couldn't find a midwife to take her for her fourth pregnancy. Finally, she found a lay midwife two states away who came to her state and delivered her in the hot tub outside her house. Everything went fine.

JaxMom said...

There used to be a bumper sticker put out by the Episcopalian church that said, "Jesus died to take away your sins, not your mind." I definitely think that applies in the Duggar situation.

Even without her other issues, the fact that Michelle is grand multiparous woman(more than 5 births)... increases the likelihood of both serious complications for her and her offspring. To be honest, I have no idea what they even call it at 20 children--because usually fertility is self-limiting, and most likely no mother would survive to give birth to that many. She's also of Advanced Maternal Age--which gives her not only increased risk of another preeclampsia pregnancy, but also gestational diabetes as well as chromosomal abnormalities.

Her daughters should not be responsible for raising the kids. Yes, kids should help out. But basically raising the children? Nope. She has way too many very young children who need their Mother to Mother them.

So, does she assume that none of the elder girls will get married because they'll be raising their siblings for the next 15-20 years? And sadly that's what would happen if something happened to Michelle. Jim-Bob would guilt at least two of the girls in remaining surrogate Moms to the other kids. Argh. So sick of their stupidity and selfishness.

Honestly, they should have just tied her tubes during the emergency c-section.

Anonymous said...

Seriously?!! Sorry, I've never considered commenting on this site before, but this is BEYOND OUTRAGOUS!! Michelle – YOU NEARLY DIED!! Please stop having children, unless you want the fame of a television show to drive you to your grave. What insurance company is insuring this family? I recall reading that the cost of caring for a premie baby is over a million dollars. I think any insurance company that would cover Michelle is asking to be bankrupted.

Anonymous said...

I do believe doctors can decline to accept you as a patient, especially if they can not in good conscience go along with your program (i.e., continuing to seek pregnancy when it is highly dangerous to yourself and any unborn child to do so; or insisting on a vaginal birth rather than c-section). In other words, if the doctor feels that the patient wants to "play doctor" and ignore his or her advice, they may well choose not to accept that person as a patient. It's perfectly understandable.

Further, I imagine most OB/gyn's might fear a malpractice lawsuit in the making when they see Mrs. Duggar on their doorstep.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The amount of kids they have does not have to do with how often they have sex. It has to do more with the fact they use no type of birth control.

mamawama said...

I am just guessing but because they took 30 minutes to get Josie out by c-section, I think the scar is probably the regular old horizontal variety. The ones where you can't have another vaginal birth are the vertical cuts, and usually those are done in emergency situations where the baby has to be out in 5 minutes.

She could always opt for another section and not even try a vbac. Because the doctors didn't seem concerned, I am guessing that it was routine surgery.

Anonymous said...

I just read the People article that had been scanned and Michelle says that she is not pregnant right now but that could change tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

When will the Duggars be happy? When Michelle finally dies in childbirth or a child dies? They are a sick couple of parents and the state should step in. This is not a normal family.

Cyn said...

When will the Duggars be happy?
*****
They are happy now, it's the rest of us that seem to have the issues...

the state should step in
*******************
I'm quite sure that in the thousands of DCS workers that are in this country, some of them have seen the show, and that DCS has probably been to their house, and since they still have the children I would assume that the state has found nothing to take the children for...

This is not a normal family.
***************
They tell us this in the intro to every show "We do things just a bit differently"....

The star article did it's job though... it stirred up the drama and sold issues to their paper even if they didn't get any facts right in their article.

Anonymous said...

Yeah how often the Duggars have sex does impact how many children they have. It impacts it a great deal. Take one extreme, if they had no sex at all they would have no children.

While it only takes one time (as my high school health teacher stressed), every time they copulate the odds of them ending up pregnant for that month increase. You have one egg and a variable number of "chances" per month that it could be fertilized. Therefore the more often they do so the higher the odds of them getting pregnant.

Not using birth control only means they COULD get pregnant if they have sex. If they don't have it, well, you don't get babies. If you don't have it very often your odds of getting pregnant go down.

mythoughtis said...

If and when Michelle passes away, her life as the ever-pregnant woman will be celebrated because 'she gave her life to G*d'....while her 4 older girls will be expected to raise all their younger siblings. If they are allowed to marry, it will only be to someone who is willing to live in the Duggar house, but not ever own the Duggar house.
This will continue until JB finds a new young fertile woman to be the kids step-mom. After which, the 4 older girls will be REQUIRED to marry and leave the house so step-mom can rule the roost. More children will result. At some point, Michelle's younger children will be 'encouraged' (think driven out) to move to the older girls homes... therely leaving step-mom only needing to care for her own 'delivered' children. JB will die before the new children are adults... leaving his money to wife and new kids, and leaving the old family to fend for themselves whether they are adults yet or not. Josie will renain with Jill her entire life.

Ponchie said...

JaxMom said:

So, does she assume that none of the elder girls will get married because they'll be raising their siblings for the next 15-20 years?

===================

Since it is up to the parents to decide when and to whom the daughters marry, I believe they will simply refuse to agree to any marriage. The daughters are so desperately needed at home to raise the siblings and run the house, there is no way they will be allowed to get married anytime soon. The only way those daughters will be able to leave the house is if they run away. Go Jana!

Ohio Buckeye said...

"We're ready for more": Ignorant is as ignorant does.

Enough said.

Anonymous said...

@JaxMom: love your comment. Love the bumper sticker.

Sadly, I don't think the Duggars are capable of comprehending it.

Remember what Forest Gump's mama said......

Anonymous said...

"I think JimBob misspoke. He meant to say that his libido is stronger than ever."

*********************************

Sometimes, when person doesn't have a whole lot goin' on 'upstairs', the only thing they have to offer is 'downstairs'.

I'd say JB falls into this category.

I think I'll pass.

Anonymous said...

"...Michelle is a grand multiparous woman(more than 5 births)... To be honest, I have no idea what they even call it at 20 children--"

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Some call it 'giving her life to god'.

Others of us call it 'crazy' or, at best, 'misguided'.

Everyone gets to have their own take on it, but personally, I think they should all just go live in a shoe and call it a day.

Allison said...

I highly doubt Jana would ever talk to Star so I wonder where/when that quote was said and what she actually meant by it... If she actually said it!

Sharla said...

Allison please see Suzie's comment above.

http://duggarswithoutpity.blogspot.com/2010/08/duggars-in-people-august-23-2010-issue.html?showComment=1281595154959#c2134487026708415147

Anonymous said...

I am utterly speechless that the Duggars would even consider having another child, especially after the ordeal Josie has had to go through in her short life. This poor innocent baby has had to undergo tubes shoved down her throat, needles poked into her, ruptured bowels,multiple surgeries etc. and the she's only an infant. She still faces more operations and developmental issues for years to come.

Michelle already has a blase, could care less attitude towards her toddler children, so what's the point of bringing another into the world? To fulfill some sanctimonious sense of doing God's work?

I predicted months ago that once Josie got better she would be dumped on Jill while Michelle geared up for number 20, and sadly it looks like I'm right.

roddma said...

"For any woman at advanced maternal age I always recommend screening."
Plenty of women have healthy babies over 40. Pregnancies scan be complicated or risky at any age. Michelle was lucky until now. Whether you are 30 or 40, 19 kids is lot and bound to take a toll. IMO labeling someone 'high risk' makes them apprehensive.

Donna said...

People "give their life to God" in all sorts of ways. To the QF, the only way that a woman can "give her life to God" is to act recklessly and irresponsibly with (1) her health (2) her life (3) her existing children by bearing child after child and straddling the oldest female children with responsibility and burden of it all. I'm not worried about the husband as he will find another QF sucker who will replace the current wife when she "goes to meet God."

These people will not quit until someone dies. They have been given "warnings" from God, but they choose to close their ears and their eyes and instead follow the theology of man inspired (NOT God-inspired) QF through and through, regardless of the outcome and the suffering of the present and future...sad, profoundly sad. I expect people in their 40's to have more maturity and wisdom than the newbie crowd that they're "witnessing" to.

I don't see Michelle or Jim Bob as "misguided", I see them as QF supastars (in their own circles) turned celebrities/entrepreneurs who are cashing in on their Conservative Christian/QF Variety Hour. Instead of Donny and Marie, we have Jim Bob and Michelle. Regular everyday large or super-large families do not go around passing out their family pictures to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that they meet. Not only that, but apparently, they think that they are version 2.0 of the Von Trapp family. I'm expecting to hear them singing Edelweiss soon. Maybe that will happen at their next "Today Show" gig.

Anonymous said...

The interesting thing to me is that the Duggars keep giving interviews to People, despite the fact that the resulting cover says "Duggars under fire". Other celebrities who get tricked like that often 'black-list' those publications unless they promise to give them favorable coverage. Clearly, to me, the Duggars like the coverage itself more than whether it's for or against them. I think that's very troubling in light of the fact that they say the whole reason they let themselves be covered by the media is to spread and share their values.

Anonymous said...

I'm expecting Michelle to be singing 'I'm pregnant again' to the tune of The Sound of Music on their next Today show visit.

Celestie said...

I usually buy People, just to "keep up" in that segment of the world. But I do not buy, when ever there is a story on Kate Gosslin or the Duggars. Its horrific enough that the parents are making money on the backs of their kids, don't need anyone else to cash in on these kids.

Bubbles said...

Anonymous said...
Clearly, to me, the Duggars like the coverage itself more than whether it's for or against them. I think that's very troubling in light of the fact that they say the whole reason they let themselves be covered by the media is to spread and share their values.


In my opinion, you argued with yourself in the above statement. If the whole reason they let themselves be covered by the media is to spread and share their values, and they're willing to be on the cover of a magazine potentially or actually criticizing them, this represents standing up for what they believe in regardless of the cost - not seeking coverage.

Suzie said...

I agree with Bubbles' assessment to a certain degree, but would also add that they can use the negative attention they receive to essentially martyr themselves to their fanbase, essentially making them even better, stronger, super-Christians. They bypass JB's former careers as a used car salesman and politician; they're laughing their way to the bank and criticism rolls off their backs easily enough due to the highly insular life they lead.

I also wanted to echo Donna's remark about who the Duggars REALLY worship. They may be Christians, but it is through an intermediary who tells them how to live their lives. This is a biggie and something many Duggar fans might not even know about when they call the family "good Christians" and pull out the "you're just jealous" card when the Duggars' lifestyle choices are questioned or criticized.

Most "good Christians" I know and probably those who post on this blog do not live their lives in the extreme fashion that the Duggars CHOOSE to do; that does not make them better Christians than anyone else. Last time I checked, the number of children one has is not an indicator of one's love of God. That logic would render an infertile Christian couple who love God every bit as much as the Duggars akin to Satan worshipers. That's not right. Then again, when it comes to the Duggars, logic is not a strong suit.

mlou said...

I pray that Michelle starts going through menopause quick. JimBob needs to get a hobby besides his current one.

Anonymous said...

Suzie said:
I also wanted to echo Donna's remark about who the Duggars REALLY worship. They may be Christians, but it is through an intermediary who tells them how to live their lives.
8888888888888888888888888888

This is such an important point Suzie, that I wanted it repeated. God comes second to the Duggars in a way -- because they allow Bill Gothard to be the one who tells them what to believe, how to interpret the Bible, etc. I've been reading some serious discussions by theologians re their views of Gothard, and the prevailing sentiment is that Gothardism is very much cult-like.

I don't see the Duggars as Christians. I see them more as I would view followers of Jim Jones, Hari Krishna, etc. They are no doubt good "Gothardites," but they aren't really good Christians.

Anonymous said...

I worked for an OB for 2 years, and yes, they have the right to refuse service to anyone, especially those who are medically in a bad situation to have more children. I also believe the Duggars had some other semi-difficult births, but none like this last one.

Anonymous said...

If I recall correctly, the Duggars have specifically denied that they are associated with Bill Gothard and/or Quiverful. It is widely assumed that they do because they do have some association with them, but has it ever been determined as a fact that they follow these teachings?

MamaWama said...

I do not agree. Many people follow a persons teachings. Most churches are either Calvinist or Armenian which follow two different opinions. Just because the Duggars agree that Gothards opinions of the Bible are right does not mean that they worship Gothard himself.
Of people who allow God to have control of their fertility, only a small portion use the ATI curriculum or follow Gothards teachings. I do think the Duggars are smart enough to know if Gothards teachings line up with the Bible or not.
Regardless of what we think, the truth is that people that follow the Gothard methods of parenting are raising some outstanding children. There is no drug use or teen pregnancy among the ATI users that I have heard about like you would see in other schools.

Anonymous said...

@Suzie6:36: Bravo, well said! The Duggars are as much of a TLC brand as the Kardashians and Kate (blech) Gosselin. They simply cover their similarities to other 'reality' sell outs with their cloak of 'being christian'.

Come to think of it, when it comes to the Duggars, they go on my Blech List.

Donna said...

"If I recall correctly, the Duggars have specifically denied that they are associated with Bill Gothard and/or Quiverful. It is widely assumed that they do because they do have some association with them, but has it ever been determined as a fact that they follow these teachings?"

The Duggars use BG's Wisdom booklets as part of their homeschooling curriculum, they're all about his "Character Qualities" and teaching their kids this stuff. I watched a Mother's Day video that the kids did for Michelle this year, and one of the girls talked about the character qualities and how she wishes that she could live them as well as her mother does (follow in her example/footsteps).

My goodness, of the earlier Duggar videos on YT shows them packing up and going to the ATI convention in Texas. They have a home-made sign on back of one of their trailers that says, "Going to ATI" or something like that. Didn't one of their daughters do some sort of podcast or something about going to one of BG's trainings recently? This was mentioned in this thread, I think. I mean, come on, people!

Do the Duggar supporters really believe that the Duggars do NOT follow the teachings of ATI? It is as clear as day that they do.
Why do the Duggars deny their involvement with BG as though it's something bad and they don't want to be associated with it? Asking if the Duggars follow Bill Gothard and ATI is like asking if the Pope is Catholic. If something IS, then why not proudly admit that instead of trying to deny or downplay the involvement?

Donna said...

"Regardless of what we think, the truth is that people that follow the Gothard methods of parenting are raising some outstanding children. There is no drug use or teen pregnancy among the ATI users that I have heard about like you would see in other schools."

There is NO drug use in ATI?

NO teen-age pregnancy among ATI "users"?

vs.

"Like we would see in other schools"?

Wow, just wow! I don't even know what to say...my jaw is still hanging.

I grew up in a strict, hyper-religious, fundamentalist background, and I can assure you that the opposite is true. The kids not only sneaked behind their parent's backs doing drugs, alcohol, participating in sex, but they also turned hog wild once they reached adulthood and got out into the world. They made all sorts of grievous errors that have affected their entire adult life because they were never allowed to think for themselves, make decisions on their own. They were stifled and raised in some sort of vacuum which was to protect them from all the worldy influence and in the end, they lost their way until they found themselves at some point...years later. These people are my age now (late 40's). I can say that every single person who I personally knew has left the religion we all grew up in and while some of them have gone on to other less restrictive religions, a good number of them belong to no organized religion at all.


I guess some things never change. Things just repeat themselves over and over again and there are always people getting into the system and old ones getting out. It's like a machine that churns you around and then spits you out when it's done...or you're done.

Anonymous said...

"and they're willing to be on the cover of a magazine potentially or actually criticizing them, this represents standing up for what they believe in regardless of the cost..."

@@@@@@

What does it cost them? They don't care what people think.

There isn't any "cost" in monetary terms, they get PAID for being on the cover of a magazine.

They are spreading their values all the way to the BANK !

Anonymous said...

I agree with the thought of NBC (or natural family planning), they seriously can practice this without compromising their beliefs.

Anonymous said...

If the Duggars are associated with Gothard in anyway then they are associated with the orginization. They don't have to say they are, they show they are by going to the ATI conferences every year. They have links on their website that takes you to Gothards teaching. They may not call themselves quiverful but they follow the phyilosophy of it.

I never have understood why it has to be all or nothing when comparing the Duggars to others. So if someone doesn't raise their children like the Duggars do then their children in that awful public school must be having sex, might get pregnant, and doing drugs.

Anonymous said...

I never have understood why it has to be all or nothing when comparing the Duggars to others. So if someone doesn't raise their children like the Duggars do then their children in that awful public school must be having sex, might get pregnant, and doing drugs.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Exactly. So many people who are Duggar supporters think that there are only two types of kids in the world: Duggar-types, and the rest of our children who are supposedly on drugs and wear skimpy clothing and pregnant at 14 and smoke and drink and...
Good grief. No ownder the fundies never leave their homes. They think the entire world is evil, evil, evil. Maybe get to know the rest of the world and realize there are all kinds of people out here- most good and clean and decent and are that way without even following the cult's beliefs.

Sharla said...

I have a request to please not refer to the Duggar's beliefs or practice as a cult. It's a polarizing word that separates opinions rather than allowing a free exchange of ideas. Frequently comments that include that word will not make it through. Thanks.

CappuccinoLife said...

Duggar supporter here who isn't all or nothing. ;)

There's plenty of intractable all-or-nothingness on the other side of the argument, too.

I see things to appreciate in their family just like I see things to appreciate in long-time family friends who had only 3 kids, sent them to public school, and think pants, dancing, and modern music is fine.

What makes me seem like a "Duggar-lover" is that I percieve a lot of criticism as gratuitous. *Anything* will do for a round of critiquing, and if there's nothing juicy, shred 'em on some minor point just because. I quit commenting on another TV family because I became disgusted with myself when I realized I was really just enjoying feeling superior.

CappuccinoLife said...

Re: Gothard and Quiverfull

To my knowledge, the Duggars have never denied association with Gothard/ATI. They haven't pushed it on the show, but why should they? They use the curriculum, they are open about going to the conferences. How is that denial or "hiding"? Would we rather they plug the stuff on every episode? (Please, no!)

As to Quiverful, it's a label. It means different things to different people, and it is not a monolithic, highly organized movement. The Duggar's aren't hiding membership in a dark secret society. There aren't membership cards or creeds to sign. Some people who are "quiverfull" have other beliefs that are troublesome. Other's don't. The label refers to the specific belief of not using birth control and remaining open to children within marriage. That is *all*. Whatever else people believe is a completely different subject. There are evangelicals who are QF, and Catholics who are QF, and Reformed Presbyterians who are QF, and homeschoolers who are QF and not-homeschoolers who are QF, and there's my family, and there's the Duggar's, and we are different from each other.

Suzie said...

MamaWawa said:

"Of people who allow God to have control of their fertility, only a small portion use the ATI curriculum or follow Gothards teachings. I do think the Duggars are smart enough to know if Gothards teachings line up with the Bible or not."
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

On the first point, the allowance of God to control fertility (and that means NOT practicing NBC; the couple is to do NOTHING that can prevent a pregnancy): that is essentially the definition of Quiverfull, which is really a philosophy that people follow rather than an entire dogmatic religion. The Duggars merely use the legalism of Gothard and ATI materials to live the lifestyle that most QF families adhere to: isolated residences, self-employment, mixing rarely (if at all) with people who do not believe as they do and of course, homeschooling.

That the Duggars use Gothard's schooling materials (the Wisdom Booklets, etc), attend seminars, conferences and retreats and "mission" trips that preach the ATI dogma, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Duggars are strong adherents of Gothard's teachings.

FWIW, even the Calvinists, who also adhere to the Duggar standards of patriarchy and strict legalism, don't have nearly the level of definition of "right vs. wrong" (or "character traits") built into their practice that Gothard preaches and the Duggars follow.

Bottom line: from what we know and have read in the Duggars' own words (yes, I read the book one evening), it is clear that the Word of God isn't their final authority, Gothard's word is. If it wasn't, they would have stopped having kids years ago, like most mainstream Christians.

It just bothers me that for a couple that have been in the right place at the right time to make investments that brought in a six-figure income even before they made their first special (recall JB paid for his Senate campaign in 2002 with his own money - over $100K and paid for that property in cash: ~$250K - around the same time), that they aren't using the brains God gave them to know when to fold 'em when it comes to Michelle's health and the increased possibilities of negative outcomes with pregnancy at her age. Yeah, my SIL had a baby just shy of her 45th birthday with no problems, but it was her one and only, not her 20th, which would be Michelle's age should she become pregnant sometime in the next few months. If she's not already...

I really worry for the kids who won't have the same opportunities their parents had; it's a totally different economic climate than the 80's, a decade in which the senior Duggars appear to be frozen.

Donna said...

We all know that the Duggars adhere to the teachings of Bill Gothard (which is fine). The reason why it was brought up again is because someone mentioned: "If I recall correctly, the Duggars have specifically denied that they are associated with Bill Gothard and/or Quiverful. It is widely assumed that they do because they do have some association with them, but has it ever been determined as a fact that they follow these teachings?"

The language "specifically denied that they are associated with BG or QF" and "it has never been determined as a fact that they follow these teachings" really needed to be addressed and it was.

Anonymous said...

Just for the record..

There is a pic of Gothard on Josh and Anna's home page,at the bottom (that's Gothard in the middle).

Also,there are ATI links on JB and M's webpage,and they follow their curriculum.that's where the (rather controversial) subjects they say they study,like law and medicine,come from.

Cyn said...

They have denied the Quiverful, just not the Gothard (since no one has actually asked them about that)

Right after the commercial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6WRJOL0_X0&feature=fvsr

Anonymous said...

It's really none of my business how many children JB and Michelle have. I just pray that each one will be healthy. I do wonder about the older girls, however. They seem stuck in this life of taking care of younger siblings, not because Michelle doesn't want to, but because she CAN'T due to the number of children she already has. I've heard her mention that she feels guilty that she can't spend more individual time with her kids. Then she should quit having more. Still, whatever their plans I wish them well. Was just at the Bates website and I must admit I'm jealous. In their blog they mention all the people who donated time and materials for their home addition (which is looking very good). I only have 2 kids so I guess I can't get anyone to donate anything to fix up my house!

MamaWama said...

Suzie said:

On the first point, the allowance of God to control fertility (and that means NOT practicing NBC; the couple is to do NOTHING that can prevent a pregnancy): that is essentially the definition of Quiverfull, which is really a philosophy that people follow rather than an entire dogmatic religion. The Duggars merely use the legalism of Gothard and ATI materials to live the lifestyle that most QF families adhere to: isolated residences, self-employment, mixing rarely (if at all) with people who do not believe as they do and of course, homeschooling.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
In response, I agree that Quiverfull believers do not use NBC because that would also be trying to take the control away from God. I have to disagree that the Duggars are using Gothard to live the Quiverfull lifestyle though. The Bible says that children are a blessing, reward and something to be desired. Gothard and many many other theologians agree. Just because the Duggars use ATI curriculum, and agree with Gothard on his philosophy doesn't mean they worship the man. The isolation, mixing with other people, self employment that were mentioned are not true of all quiverfull folk. I don't even think they are true of most. Most of the quiverfull people who I know are outgoing, and very few are self employed. Although I do agree that most quiverfull people do homeschool.

Suzie said:
it is clear that the Word of God isn't their final authority, Gothard's word is. If it wasn't, they would have stopped having kids years ago, like most mainstream Christians.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
I don't believe that is true because God's word is the Duggars only authority. They may agree with Gothard on some points, but I can guarantee you that if Gothard was teaching something that went against what the Bible says, the Duggars would not follow along. I would fall over and faint if they did :)
Did you know that Birth Control was illegal until the 1930's and all different denominations were against it. So, in reality the Duggars are holding onto the original teachings of the church.

Suzie said:
Yeah, my SIL had a baby just shy of her 45th birthday with no problems, but it was her one and only, not her 20th, which would be Michelle's age should she become pregnant sometime in the next few months. If she's not already...
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
I don't understand why a baby is celebrated at 45 if it is the first baby, but a baby who is just as cute and special wouldn't be celebrated just because it's birth order would be #20. IMO, a person should either be against all people who risk a pregnancy at that age, or for them. It shouldn't change with the number of pregnancies.

Anonymous said...

The reason people say it is all or nothing with the Duggars and what is percieved as a lot of criticism as gratuitous is because this is about the Duggars and discussing them not other people. I am sure there are plenty of people in this world who exposed the most intimate parts of their lives who would get the same criticism.

Anonymous said...

>They have denied the Quiverful, just not the Gothard (since no one has actually asked them about that)
-----------------------------------

thanks.I just find it odd since Gothard is clearly qv.

MamaWama said...

Suzie said:
"The Duggars merely use the legalism of Gothard and ATI materials to live the lifestyle that most QF families adhere to: isolated residences, self-employment, mixing rarely (if at all) with people who do not believe as they do and of course, homeschooling."
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
I don't think the Duggars are using any philosophy in order to adhere to their beliefs. I think they are smart enough to read the Bible and decide for themselves. This point is not even accurate because the only thing that most QF families do is not use birth control. They do not isolate, self employ or never mix with people unlike themselves. Although I will agree that most do homeschool :)

MamaWama said...

Suzie said:
"Yeah, my SIL had a baby just shy of her 45th birthday with no problems, but it was her one and only, not her 20th, which would be Michelle's age should she become pregnant sometime in the next few months. If she's not already..."
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&7
Congrats to your SIL. I think that all babies should be celebrated even if they are #20. I don't understand the thinking that it is ok to have a baby at 45 as long as it is a "preferred birth order number" ( as in #1 or #2). A baby who is number 20 in a family is no less wonderful than a first baby.

Suzie said...

MamaWawa said:

I don't understand why a baby is celebrated at 45 if it is the first baby, but a baby who is just as cute and special wouldn't be celebrated just because it's birth order would be #20.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

That wasn't my point. My point was the HEALTH of my SIL (perfect in every respect) vs. the health of Michelle should she have #20 at the same age. She has a myriad of health issues that my SIL has never faced and because she stopped at one, will never have to face. I had no worries about my SIL's pregnancy (her daughter is a perfectly healthy soon-to-be second grader). However, I DO worry for Michelle and any future progeny. Any body that has been through unrelenting stress for over 20 years, be it playing professional football or being pregnant and giving birth, is going to have a different experience than someone who plays flag football with the gang in a summer league or has one or two pregnancies.

As for your other points regarding what "other" people who adhere to Gothard and/or QF do, that's not the focus here. However, if you read people who have posted here who have gone through those experiences and come out on the other side, it is apparent that they believe they escaped something that was not healthy FOR THEM. The irony is, from what I've learned from them is that it is the women who are sucked into the vortex first; this seems to be the case with the Duggars, who went extremist after a doctor (with an agenda) erroneously advised them that the Pill caused her miscarriage. That was when they officially became adherents of the quiverfull philosophy. They applied for, but weren't approved for Gothard materials until Josh was in 1st grade (he attended JB's alma mater, Shiloh Christian, for kindergarten). Of course, but the time Josh was 6, JB and M had 5 kids and were expecting Jinger. this was the season of life, according to the Book, in which Michelle had her infamous nervous breakdown; Jana. Jill and baby Jessa couldn't grow up fast enough for her at that point.

Analyzing this situation, wouldn't THAT be a sign from God that you can't handle more? IMHO, this is when it stopped being cute and the slippery slope of extremism that is lauded by so many actually began. The vast majority of families, be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, pagan or atheist, would have stopped there and taken care of what we were already "blessed" with. This is where I take issue with the Quiverfullers. Is it faith or stupidity that compel Michelle and women with that "open womb" credo to keep on going, despite the increasing risks?

I just don't get the quantity > quality philosophy, other than the stated mission to create an Army for God, as if ANYONE can presume what God really wants.

Anonymous said...

Yes private practice physicians can refuse to take a patient or fire a patient if they feel that they are going against sound medical advice. So if DG's OB/GYN advises her that getting pregnant again would be dangerous,against sound medical advice and they go ahead and do it, OB/GYN can dismiss her from their practice. That would mean they would have to go dr shopping. I personally believe it would be hard for them to find an OB/GYN to care for her outside a federal funded clinic, they can not refuse anyone. She is VERY VERY high risk.
Another point I would like to make is that Josie's care was funded by the state and federal medicare dollars, not the Duggar's, it cost about $1 million to care for the first year of a micropermie life. So since my tax dollars are going to pay for another micro permie, I have a say if they should have #20. I vote "NO" more like "HELL NO". Also remember if she dies in child birth all the kids under 21 would be able to collect social security until they are 21, do you want your social security $$ to support the family?

Anonymous said...

Dependents only collect SSA if the wage earner has earned enough credits and recent credits. It's doubtful that Michelle would meet the standards. Also they only collect until 18 unless verified full time students.

Anonymous said...

Josie's care likely cost more than a million dollars, and that is only so far.

I know Jim Bob likes to pretend that they are above government support, but we all paid to keep that baby alive.

Nicole said...

"Another point I would like to make is that Josie's care was funded by the state and federal medicare dollars, not the Duggar's, it cost about $1 million to care for the first year of a micropermie life. So since my tax dollars are going to pay for another micro permie, I have a say if they should have #20. I vote "NO" more like "HELL NO". "


Where is the evidence to support this claim? Everything I have seen/heard indicates that the Duggar family's health insurance and own out-ot-pocket money covered Josie's neonatal care, just like all their other children. The Duggars have always been very upfront that they do not and have never used government funds for anything. I'd be very, very surprised if the above statement is anything other than a false assumption.

Anonymous said...

The People magazine article mentions a court controversy in the blurb on the 2 page photo spread. This controversy is not mentioned in the article. I have not seen or heard anything about this issue and wondered what it was about. If this is something that has been discussed, forgive me for not knowing about it. Could someone please point me to any information on regarding this controversy? (Note to mods: I just realized that I attempted to post this under the wrong discussion thread, as soon as I sent it, and I apologize for that.)

mythoughtis said...

my guess (without having seen it) is that the photo blurb was using the word court as a verb... try substituting 'leads to controversy'. or 'are controversial'... I don't think they mean to imply there is any kind of a court case going on.

Anonymous said...

mythoughtis said...
my guess (without having seen it) is that the photo blurb was using the word court as a verb... try substituting 'leads to controversy'. or 'are controversial'... I don't think they mean to imply there is any kind of a court case going on.

Thank you so much! I went back and re-read it, "The Duggars celebrate their medical miracle--and court controversy by saying they'd welcome a 20th child." Now that I read as a verb, it makes perfect sense. At first I thought they were also celebrating coming through some kind of court controversy. I feel a little stupid now, lol!

Iliketheduggars said...

"So since my tax dollars are going to pay for another micro permie, I have a say if they should have #20. I vote "NO" more like "HELL NO". Also remember if she dies in child birth all the kids under 21 would be able to collect social security until they are 21, do you want your social security $$ to support the family?"

----------------------------------

Do I want to tell the Duggars or anyone else to tell me how many children to have? Do I want anyone telling ME how many children to have? Do I want the GOVERNMENT to tell the Duggars or anyone else how many children to have???

No, hell no!

Claire said...

Where is the evidence to support this claim? Everything I have seen/heard indicates that the Duggar family's health insurance and own out-ot-pocket money covered Josie's neonatal care, just like all their other children. The Duggars have always been very upfront that they do not and have never used government funds for anything. I'd be very, very surprised if the above statement is anything other than a false assumption.

***

Josie received/receives Social Security payments due to her low birth weight (under 2 pounds, 10 ounces):

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10026.html#ssi-benefits

The same page (Under Medicaid and Medicare) states, "Medicaid is a health care program for people with low incomes and limited resources. In most states, children who get SSI payments qualify for Medicaid. In many states, Medicaid comes automatically with SSI eligibility."

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10026.html#medicaid

Moving to the Arkansas Medicaid website: "If you can get SSI, you will get Medicaid."

https://www.medicaid.state.ar.us/InternetSolution/consumer/SSI.aspx

So yes, I think it's safe to say that much if not all of Josie's care was funded by Medicaid (aka government health care funded by taxpayer dollars). Not saying that that's a bad thing. I gladly pay taxes to make sure that the Josies of the world (and their families, regardless of religious beliefs) receive the best care possible.

I'll give him a pass for everything he's said prior to Josie's birth, but I'm going to be giving JB some serious side-eye if I ever hear mention of him railing against big bad government/public healthcare ever again.

Donna said...

"Do I want to tell the Duggars or anyone else to tell me how many children to have? Do I want anyone telling ME how many children to have? Do I want the GOVERNMENT to tell the Duggars or anyone else how many children to have???

No, hell no!"

Let's face facts here because at the end of the day someone is paying Josie Duggar's astronomical NICU bill, and it ain't private insurance either.

Now, considering that Jim Bob Duggar was a congressman for a few years, he is eligible for/getting government-paid healthcare. Maybe that's why he pays a $475 monthly premium (I believe that's a figure that has been put out before) for 20-21 people, but that's because the taxpayers (READ: GOVERNMENT) subsidizes his healthcare premiums.

The fact is that the Duggar lifestyle "choices" are not sustainable for the majority of large families in America. The fact that Mr. Duggar gets/is eligible for government-paid (subsidized by taxpayers) healthcare and has a television show is proof enough that they are extra special.

Also, I believe that a micro-preemie like Josie is automatically eligible for state funds which will help pay the medical bills.

Any way you slice it, God is not paying Josie's astronomical bills, it's the everyday schmucks that have to go to work and put their children in daycare or other babysitting arrangements that do.

It's GOVERNMENT that paying for it all! How do you like them apples.

Anonymous said...

Donna you need to provide some documentation about state legislators getting Government subsidized health insurance. I don't believe that is accurate. He was only there a few years and as a state legislator wouldn't have even been eligible for Federal health insurance while he was in office much less now.

Celestie said...

Do I want to tell the Duggars or anyone else to tell me how many children to have?

_-----

Apparently they do want to do just that, by telling women what they cannot do with their own bodies. Remember what platform JimBob ran on?

CappuccinoLife said...

Is there documentation that the Duggar's are taking aid?

They are not poor. Unlikely to be low income. The program they have mentioned has covered huge bills before.

Just because someone is *eligable* for something doesn't meant they're using it. The government doesn't just drop bags full of cash at the door. If you're going to get aid, you have to apply.

Without proof, there's only speculation

Anonymous said...

I do not believe that it is a foregone conclusion that the Duggars' have applied for gov't benefits for Josie's care. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't, but I believe that, if at all possible, they would be paying for it. JMHO

Anonymous said...

Claire said:
Josie received/receives Social Security payments due to her low birth weight (under 2 pounds, 10 ounces):

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10026.html#ssi-benefits

----------------------------
The statement on the page is that a birth weight below 2 pounds and 10 ounces "may qualify" a child for SSI payments, not that it "will qualify them".

Donna said...

To Anonymous:

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress


"Members elected since 1984 are covered by the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS). Those elected prior to 1984 were covered by the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS). In 1984 all members were given the option of remaining with CSRS or switching for FERS. As it is for all other federal employees, congressional retirement is funded through taxes and the participants' contributions. Members of Congress under FERS contribute 1.3% of their salary into the FERS retirement plan and pay 6.2% of their salary in Social Security taxes. And like Federal employees, members contribute one-third of the cost of health insurance with the government covering the other two-thirds.[38]

Also:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_health-care_does_senators_get


"All government employees are ensured through the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program. They are allowed to choose from around 250 insurance providers, and will not be discriminated against for "pre-existing conditions," as many Americans are. Every year they are allowed to switch health insurance plans without penalty (again, American citizens cannot).

They only pay around 75% of their premium, and the rest is funded through taxes. Since this is a form of universal healthcare, it is ironic that many senators oppose universal healthcare. The United States is one of the only industrialized countries without universal healthcare."

Anonymous said...

Donna, your political rant aside, your basic assumption is faulty. Jim Bob was state legislator in Arkansas. He never served in the US Congress, therefore he never had Federal health insurance.

Cyn said...

Apparently they do want to do just that, by telling women what they cannot do with their own bodies. Remember what platform JimBob ran on?
***********************
Yes he ran on banning LATE TERM Abortions. The rest of the "supposed platform" was created after he left office and started the show by various bloggers.

As a republican MOST if not ALL are against the LATE term abortions. The fact that the Duggars themselves do not use ANY kind of birth control is what THEY believe is right for THEM. He did not suggest, in any of his campaigns, that the rest of Arkansas be denied Birth Control.

Anonymous said...

Am I remember correctly that a few months back somebody posted info on the type of health insurance the Duggars carried? Definately private insurance. It was, if I remember correctly, a low cost monthly premium plan with coverage for hospital stays. I think there was something strange that it didn't pay for child birth.

But it should have paid for some of Josie's care. How much? Who knows. Just about everybody's insurance is gonna top out given the expense of her type of care. Did the Duggars rely on a governmental program to pay their hospital bills? Wish they'd have asked that question on the Today Show or in People.

Claire said...

The statement on the page is that a birth weight below 2 pounds and 10 ounces "may qualify" a child for SSI payments, not that it "will qualify them".
***

Read further.

If your child has one of the qualifying conditions, he or she will get SSI payments right away.

Anonymous said...

The SSI payments and Medicaid will go to the hospital not to the parents. As long as the child is in an institution (hospital) the parents assets and income are not counted. The day the child goes home, parental assets and income become a factor as well as the child's updated medical condition. The program keeps the hospitals from going broke covering the care of these tiny babies.

Anonymous said...

It's very sad that in the People article, Michelle said that sometimes things people post on the TLC blog are hurtful, such as when some wonder how she can divide her time 19 ways. It hurts her because she wonders and doubts herself on that point. Yet in the same breath, she continues to talk about having more. I really don't get it. If she can't divide herself 19 ways, how is she going to do it for 20 or more? Where is this woman's common sense?

Cyn said...

If your child has one of the qualifying conditions, he or she will get SSI payments right away.

Only if you apply for them, they aren't standing in the hospital handing out the checks.

The Bates in TN QUALIFY for food stamps, and other welfare programs and yet have never taken a dime of them. The Duggars make to much money to qualify for most welfare programs, but at the same time wouldn't take it if they DID.

Stating flat out that we the taxpayers paid for Josie's medical bill is supposition, we can not substantiate it one way or the other.

All we can state as absolute facts are that the Duggars have a high deductible insurance plan that doesn't ask how MANY kids you have only if you HAVE kids. (as stated by JimBob in the cheaper by the Duggars episode) He also stated it doesn't cover things like dental, and prenatal, or Michelle's labor and delivery so they usually prepay those (hope he got his money back since she gave birth in a different hospital).

(speculation)
Those type of policies are usually the catastrophic kind which don't kick in until you have spent the first 5-10K out of pocket. Through a religious organization I belong to I have access to the same type, and they pays EVERYTHING with no limit after the first 10K, but it doesn't cover normal doctor visits, dental, or vision. Those you have to pay out of pocket.

JimBob himself sold insurance when they were starting the family, I'm quite sure he found the best policy he could find for his family, while still not paying an arm and a leg for it. And the type of policy I laid out is recommended by several of the "get out of Debt and stay out" financial guru's including Jim Sammoms (the seminar they took in their early marriage, and teach/taught).

Note from a mod said...

Jim Bob did not retire from the state legislature and is not entitled to continue that insurance. This was hashed out many months ago when Josie was born. I hear hoofbeats.

Claire said...

We're each clearly going to believe what we're going to believe, Cyn, and at this point I'm thinking neither of us is going to budge from our respective positions.

I'm just going to end by saying that Medicaid automatically pays for what private insurance will not cover, so that hospitals won't go bankrupt (though, since preemies are consistently the most "expensive" patients, Medicaid reimbursements are often not enough). Considering that Josie's hospital bills will easily run into the (several) hundreds of thousands of dollars, I have a very hard time believing (aka I don't believe in a million years) that their private insurance, even if it is top-notch would cover everything.

As for them not stating anything, I really don't expect them to. They're media-savvy enough to know that after going on and on about debt-free living, about not relying (and actively discouraging) government assistance, that bringing up the issue of Medicaid might be sticky.

CappuccinoLife said...

I'm just going to end by saying that Medicaid automatically pays for what private insurance will not cover, so that hospitals won't go bankrupt

**********

Er, not according to the people I know who've had Medicaid.

In our state it's often a *fight* to get Medicaid to pay, especially with regards to prenatal care and childbirth. There is one particular medicaid program who's name is anathema to doctors offices and hospitals state-wide because of this.

Maybe the government works differently in Arkansas and is super-efficient and loves to hand out wads of cash, forcing it on people who don't want it. In PA, not so much. :/

*If* the Duggars were recieving welfare in any form, they would have had to apply for it, be accepted, and likely keep on top of their status. Since they are opposed to its use in principal, have their own insurance, have an income which can be used to make payments over a long period of time if necessary, and there is no proof that they've taken aid, these accusations are baseless.

Sarah said...

Cyn, I've worked with ARKids, and they usually automatically enroll you.

Donna said...

Apparently, the Duggars live in an alternate reality than the rest of us; a reality where "private" health insurance covers millions of dollars of health care costs. Every private insurance company has lifetime caps. I can imagine that their insurance policy has already seen plenty of use.

I'm reading a blog right now that states that 100 days of NICU for a particular mother's micro-preemie was just short of $2.5 million. Also, she says that Medicaid automatically covers micro-preemie NICU care while in NICU. Her primary insurance did cover most of the bill, but this is not to say that Medicaid wasn't there as a back-up resource for the hospital.

I really cannot believe this burying one's head in the sand phenomenon. We're supposed to automatically believe that the Duggars NEVER take any government assistance, like it's beneath them or something. Duggar supporters make it sound like it's sacrilege to point out anything about the Duggars that would spoil their "debt-free" image/legend.

Been there, Done that said...

Josie had the SSI condition of her extreme prematurity and birth weight. Those government payments kicked in almost immediately.

We have already discussed this at nauseum. Jim Bob did not pay for her care, nor did any private insurance. SSI pays for all micropremie care, because that low birth weight is considered a serious disability.

Anonymous said...

the People article says they are ready to consider baby #20.

Why is this newsworthy?

Remember the pottery episode?

JimBob in the interview chair...he gets asked if making pottery with Michelle is fun.

JimBob proceeds to laugh...then laugh some more.

Then JimBob says: "Whatever I'm making with my wife, it's FUN !".

Yes, JimBob, we all get it, you are a horny teenager who won't quit until your wife dies in childbirth.

They don't believe in birth control, fine, do they believe in self-control ?

Nicole said...

The fact that Josie is *eligible* for SSI, Medicaid, etc., does NOT mean that she is receiving it. Our family has been eligible for various gov't benefits at different times in our lives and we have never used them. The Duggars have never used gov't benefits in the past (they report) so I don't see why they'd do it now. Josie's care was expensive no doubt, but the Duggars are financially independent and appear to make more than sufficient money to pay for their portion of Josie's care.

Again, assumptions and speculations are being made that have no evidence to support them.

Anonymous said...

Let's just say, since we don't know, that somehow JB was able to pay all those medical bills out of his own pocket/TLC bank account. OR that he really does have insurance to cover at least part of it. Even if he paid half or a quarter of it, wouldn't that be reason alone to STOP having kids? If those bills wiped out even 50 or 100,000 of their TLC money, why would they risk doing it again?
With 19 kids, sooner or later another large medical bill or two is bound to come up-broken bones, appendicitis, illnesses or surgeries or whatever. Shouldn't the concern be to not use all the money they have on more preemies and problem births, which in all likelihood are bound to happen?

Anonymous said...

"All government employees are ensured through the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program. They are allowed to choose from around 250 insurance providers, and will not be discriminated against for "pre-existing conditions," as many Americans are. Every year they are allowed to switch health insurance plans without penalty (again, American citizens cannot).

They only pay around 75% of their premium, and the rest is funded through taxes."
=================================
Before this officially becomes a dead horse issue, it is obvious in the above statements why Wikipedia should NEVER be considered a reliable source. They misuse of the word "ensure" should be a clue. My husband is a federal employee, and yes, the government insures him at no out of pocket cost. No big deal, many civilian employers cover employees at no cost to them. We pay for family coverage, which again, like civilian employers, is prorated. We have open enrollment once a year, just like civilian employers, at which time we are allowed to switch coverage as it suits our family's needs. There is no automatic exemption for pre-existing conditions, although plans are offered that don't penalize for them, usually at a higher premium. We pay one of the highest rates for dental insurance, because we needed orthodontia for the kids.

Although I am not a Duggar fan, and wholeheartedly disagree with them on a host of issues, it seems that in some twisted, round-about way, they have "inspired" or "encouraged" me, considering I came out of "lurking status" to comment on this misperception of what fed employees receive as benefits. The only factual statement I saw was that taxes pay for the employees' insurance. Of course, if one doesn't want their tax dollars to pay for things like national defense, they are certainly able to become exempt, like the Amish do.

Whether Josie Duggar's medical bills have been picked up by the state is an unanswered question, but Medicaid sets income guidelines for qualification, and I doubt they are going to waive those just for the Duggars.

Anonymous said...

"Let's face facts here because at the end of the day someone is paying Josie Duggar's astronomical NICU bill, and it ain't private insurance either."

-----------------------------------

I don't understand why it couldn't be the Duggar's private insurance paying for it.

I had a preemie and after I paid my $1,000 deductible they paid everything else. And since he was born in January they paid everything else for him for the rest of the year.

Anonymous said...

Cyn said:
All we can state as absolute facts are that the Duggars have a high deductible insurance plan that doesn't ask how MANY kids you have only if you HAVE kids. (as stated by JimBob in the cheaper by the Duggars episode) He also stated it doesn't cover things like dental, and prenatal, or Michelle's labor and delivery so they usually prepay those (hope he got his money back since she gave birth in a different hospital)
--------------------
I can't prove or disprove what sort of health coverage the Duggars have, but I must say - I find it unlikely that their own health carrier doesn't know exactly how many children they have covered under the plan. Surely they must add each child as he or she is born, give date of birth, SS#, and other identifying info, right?

Sadly, in this day and age, even the most gold-plated of insurance policies (which clearly the Duggars do not have) doesn't cover everything, even after you pay your high deductible. I have no idea what the Duggars are on the hook for as to Josie's expensive and lengthy hospital stay, but I imagine it is in the thousands of dollars.

However, I also know that because of her very premature birth and very low birth weight, Josie would have automatically qualified for some sort of Medicaid coverage, and that someone would have approached the Duggars in the days following her birth to start that process. They could have declined that assistance. Since they have not specifically given indication one way or the other on this particular issue, then none of us know for certain if they are accepting state or federal funds to cover whatever their own insurance does not.

While they are under no obligation to tell their viewing audience this information, I admit I am curious to know since they trumpet that they live debt free and take no government assistance. That's a big part of their mantra, and if they remain silent on whether they were able to cover Josie's bills on their own, it will make me suspicious that they did partake of Medicaid but don't want to come out and admit it.

samcarter said...

This comment: "They don't believe in birth control, fine, do they believe in self-control ?" is wonderful.

When our first son was born, we ended up having to have an emergency C section, and because of platelet issues that had not been monitored properly during my pregnancy, I came pretty close to bleeding out on the operating table. We are Catholics, and do not use artificial birth control. We DO practice natural birth control, which involves being aware of the woman's cycle and periods of fertility, and yes, self-control. We held off on having another child for nearly four years, partly to let my body recover, partly out of a bit of fear!

The Duggars give a bad name to the practice of natural family planning and being open to life. It's not about just letting whatever happen, happen--it's about using the brains God gave you to discern whether you can handle another child, physically, emotionally, and financially.

Anonymous said...

I really think they should stop having children. This is getting to be too much!
I have read some comments, and agree that she is probably pregnant again. And you know this is taking its toll on her body. She will pay for this in later years.

I have only watched the show once and that was because my daughter wanted to see about baby Josie.
What if she died? What if the baby died? What if they both died?
She needs to be there for all of her other children, and she is taking too many risks.

I had a miscarriage, and almost lost my first child. I was blessed to have one more after that and decided that 2 was enough to raise.

My eldest daughter couldn't get pregnant for 4 years, and had a miscarriage. Then, she had a difficult pregnancy and VERY long labor with my grandson.

My youngest daughter also blessed us with our granddaughter, but had to have a hysterectomy due to the fact that she then had a miscarriage and could not carry any more full term.

I think that now it is them having children to keep the ratings up and the show on the air and the money rolling in.

Ridiculous!!!!!

Anonymous said...

I think the insurance question should be dead-horsed unless new fatcs become available.

Josie would very easily MEDICALLY qualify for SSI and medicaid.

BUT the family would not FINANCIALLY qualify, so it's a moot point. They have too much property and too many financial resources.

You can look all this up at the SSA website, or you could call your local social security office for information.

I love the duggars said...

The Duggars started their baby marathon after suffering a miscarriage. They said that they hated to think that something they did, (taking birth control pills) had caused the death of their child. They did not assume that it was in "God's hands"...they felt it was their mistake that made this happen.

Well, why would they not recognise that now, they could be doing the same thing by getting pregnant when her body is old and unable to carry a child? That child could also die, along with with Michele.

I love the duggars said...

I just have to make one more point. Michele got married at 17..Jim Bob was 19, and had already moved out of his mother's home.

The two of them did not stick around their parent's homes to help the parents out. And in both cases the parents could have used that help! Michelle's parents were older, and moving. Michelle did not move with them, nor stay around and care for them. Jim Bob's parents had financial problems and it really would have helped if he had worked for free so that his parent's could have had an easier time. [That is what his kids do; they work for free so that things are easier for their parents.] Instead, Jim Bob and Michelle lived their own lives. They did not live their parent's lives for them.

Why do they not give their children the same gift of life, that their parents gave them?

They owe their children the same opportunity to live their own lives and make their own decisions, that they were given. They owe it to them, because these kids did not ask to be born!
The children above 18--girls or boys-- should NOT have to take care of their parent's children and their parent's home; nor live out their parent's convictions any longer! It is wrong, some would say sinful, that they are being emotionally pressured to do so.

Jim Bob and Michelle need to help their children live out their own lives; make their own decisions and mistakes. Jim Bob and Michelle need to assume responsibility for their own babies and all the cooking and cleaning that go along with having so many children, and allow their older girls to pursue their own interests...even if it is scary. It is the final job of a good parent!

It is the duty of a parent to let go of their adult children. We are not truly a success as a parent, until our children are self sufficient outside of our home.

The Duggar adult children are good and honorable children. They will never live their own lives unless given permission to do so by their parents. I pray that the parents would do this immediantly.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

To those who think that the Duggars owe their children the same lifestyle they had which is freedom to make their own decisions I can say this. Most parents do not give their children the same lifestyle they themselves had. Most parents want to give their child a better life.

Obviously the Duggars believe that the life they are giving their children is better and that they are doing what most parents do, give them something different rather than the exact way their were raised. I am saying this as no matter how much we feel they owe their children the same lifestyle the Duggars are doing what they think is best for their children. I am not saying what they are doing is the best as each of us have an idea what may be best for their children. In their mind they are giving them what they owe them, a better life than what they had.

Celestie said...

In their mind they are giving them what they owe them, a better life than what they had.

----
How in the world could raising your parent's children, cleaning their house, cooking their meals, doing their laundry be a better life than choosing your own mate, starting your own family or exploring your own world once you are of age?
I don't get that at all.

The whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth said...

In what ways is having adult children living at home, doing housework and childcare, "giving them a better life"?

I agree that a better life is what parents want for their children. The Duggars seem not to have gotten the memo that the goal of raising children is to let them go and live their own lives eventually, not to hold on to them paternalistically and infantalizing them forever. Most good parents realize that their children also have hopes and dreams, and that helping their children achieve these dreams is also the goal of good parenting.

This is only the first generation of Gothardites/Quiverfuls. Let's see what happens by generation two of poorly educated kids who live at home, can't work for anyone else, can't follow a dream except their parents.

The experiment is only in the beginning stages, and is already crumbling.

Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness said...

Regarding the Duggars giving their children a "lifestyle":

I expect to have the rights that every American is entitled to and that is the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness and most of all the ability to live as a free man or woman. I don't give a "lifestyle" to my children either, but they are deserving to live a life that gives them the freedom to pursue higher education, their own life, their own marriage and children (if they choose it) without worrying about having to stick around here to make sure that the younger children and household are taken care of. What a burden to put on a young life that is ready to spread it's wings and fly.

I was actually thinking about this yesterday and I think that the fact that they expect WAAAY more of their own childen than was EVER expected of them is what bothers me the most. The Duggars freely chose the "lifestyle" they wanted to lead at a very early age, regardless of what their parents thought or approved of. No one had to give them the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval; they just went out and did it. Sure, they like to use the word, "convicted" as in "God convicted us (or our hearts) to do this or that." How convenient that everything that the Duggars personally want to do (like the rest of us) is all ordained by God. Very convenient. Maybe the children will be convicted to R-U-N-N-O-F-T at some point soon, who knows.

Are we to believe that God wants all the older girls to stick around until they are in their mid 30's so that Jim Bob and Michelle can have their own fantasy come true? They seem to be the epitome of selfishness. Here's the bottom line: what is done is done. You can't go back to erase your children, nor is anyone suggesting that. However, stop with the "we're ready for #20" or whatever number comes next. Here's the big question: Are you children ready for it???

MamaWama said...

My friend works for SSI and she said that all micro premies are eligible for benefits, but if the parents make plenty of money it is probably only about $35 a month.

Nicole said...

I also feel that the older girls could have more interests and activities outside the home. I hope their parents aren't stifling them in this area. But as far as "working for free", we have no idea if they are actually doing this. My husband and I pay our older girls for contributing to running our home, we feel it is akin to a job and should be compensated. We're assuming Jimbob and Michelle don't compensate their girls. Plus no one knows what is done with the family's TLC money. It is possible JB isn't a controlling chauvinistic beast - for all we know he could be giving all his kids their shares of that money every month. Also, John-David isn't working at home for free, he makes his own money with his towing business, and isn't giving it to his parents.

Michelle's parents weren't aged and feeble when she was 17 - they didn't need "cared for" when they moved away. They were middle-aged nearing retirement and probably wanted to be alone! Michelle cared for her dad for a while in her home a few years back after a car accident he was in, when he did need help. And to propose that a married young man or young man who is living on his own should work and give his money to his struggling parents is not an accurate comparison of the situation the Duggars have with their children.

Anonymous said...

I love the Duggars said:
It is the duty of a parent to let go of their adult children. We are not truly a success as a parent, until our children are self sufficient outside of our home.

-------------------

I couldn't have said it better myself. The goal of any parent should ultimately be that you have raised children that can function well as adults and lead their own lives, start their own families, make their own choices, and truly function independently of you, the parent.

The Duggars don't seem willing or able to let go. They made some remarks upon Josh's marriage about "leave and cleave," yet we see that Josh and Anna are still brought in for photo opportunities, interviews with media, and regularly seem to travel with the rest of the Duggars for the show.

Anna has certainly left her family, but Josh stays pretty closely tied to his.

The older girls have been done with their high school education for years, yet they have done nothing toward continuing their education, nor getting any sort of employment outside of the home, nor even beginning the courting process. What are they doing? They are unpaid nannies, teachers, housekeepers, and general dogsbodies around the Duggar household. Mr. and Mrs. Duggar encourage this because it suits their lifestyle and makes things easier for them. They don't do it for the best interests of their children, but for their own best interests.

That's not responsible parenting -- that's called using your older female children to help you raise the huge brood of children you can't raise on your own.

Seriously - if you cannot raise up the children you already have, you ought not to continue to have more. Shame on the Duggar parents for being so self-involved.

Anonymous said...

Celestie said:
How in the world could raising your parent's children, cleaning their house, cooking their meals, doing their laundry be a better life than choosing your own mate, starting your own family or exploring your own world once you are of age?
I don't get that at all.
--------------------------

The only way that principle works is by convoluted thinking. With a certain mindset, you can find god on your side no matter your decision.

Thus, a miscarriage such as that experienced by many, many, many women all over the world, from the dawn of time to now, turns into a specific message from god to abdicate all responsibility for responsible sexual behavior and have unlimited children.

Thus, the results of that irresponsibility produce many children. If you are fortunate, they produce many female children in the early years.

Thus, since you are following god's will in having unlimited children, it must also be his will that your older daughters step in to fill the breach when you are no longer able to keep up with your mothering responsibilities.

Under this reasoning, any decision you make, as long as it doesn't interfere with the process of producing yet more children, cannot be wrong. God wants you to have as many children as possible, so what would normally be considered poor parenting, or selfish behavior, suddenly isn't. What would be considered hobbling your children and limiting their own hopes, dreams and lives, somehow isn't.

And if you get your own television show and talk in a babyish voice, you will probably get Mother of the Year awards, which only reinforce your selfish behavior.

txmom said...

These people will prove their stupidity and foolishness by having a TWENTIETH child.

As for 'leaving and cleaving?" A yr ago, I said the Duggars would never allow their girls to move away from the family compound. When they do marry, JimBob will put the sons-in-law to work for him so he can keep ALL his children close. Just watch and see.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous11:04am: Applauding! Standing ovation!

Duggars in a nutshell.

Celestie said...

The only way that principle works is by convoluted thinking. With a certain mindset, you can find god on your side no matter your decision

----
Glad someone finally said it.
These people pray over decisions, but interestingly enough, god never says no, not a good idea, he or she always agrees with what the prayer wants to do.

SuzanneDeAZ said...

The comment about God never saying NO do the Duggars I would like to know how they know this as a fact? Like most people of faith God often closes doors which is one way some believe God is saying "no". No one on line knows exactly how many times they prayed for God's guidance and what the answers were.

Has Mrs. Duggar or any one in her family claimed that God has never said "no" when they sought His guidance?

Anonymous said...

I am a journalist and a few years ago I interviewed a nationally known fertility specialist. He told me that, for reasons doctors can't explain, fertility drops precipitously at age 43. M may not be able to conceive naturally.

Anonymous said...

With the work in IVF what they've found is the eggs are "old" by the time a woman is around mid-forties. Some women it would hit around 43 and others up to 45. That's the recent explanation for part of the drop off of fertility. The other issue is the steadily increasing miscarriage rate. Among other reasons, due to the aging eggs, chromosomal anomalies become more common and thus more miscarriage

Donna said...

"Has Mrs. Duggar or any one in her family claimed that God has never said "no" when they sought His guidance?"

I don't know the exact answer to that question, but I have a feeling that "God" tells them whatever they want to hear. It's very selecting hearing on the Duggar's part.

Anonymous said...

I think one of the reasons they don't encourage the kids to move away is because it would wreck their constant family pictures. It's harder to keep making money off of 20 (they hope) kids if they can't squeeze them all in the picture. I also think they are afraid the Bates family will catch up or, heaven forbid, pass them up.

Anonymous said...

Interesting & valid point that this is the first generation of Gothard/Quiverfull. Thank you for bringing that up.

Badly educated, homeschooled, homebirthed, homebusiness. Yee Gads.

love the duggars said...

Suzanne...I agree that the duggars are raising their CHILDREN with the best intentions...my comments were about their ADULT children. I am afraid they are keeping the adult children around for the worst intentions.

There comes a time, the Bible states it clearly, that there is a time that children must leave their parents and live their own lives.

When adult children are still at their parent's home, working for their parents, doing the job God gave their parents to do: raising their parent's children, cleaning their parent's home, shopping for their parent's family, cooking their parents meals, fixing their parent's hair, sewing their parents clothes, doing their parent's laundry...this IS NOT 'doing what's best for the children', on the part of the parents. This is the parents selfishly taking advantage of their compliant, obedient Christian children. It is wrong.

I hate to say that Jim Bob and Michelle are not doing what is best for their adult children, but instead what is easiest and best for themselves. Their adult children need to live their own lives; make their own mistakes and have their own triumphs. Their adult children should not have to bear the burden of the choices their parents have made to have so many children. It was their decision, they should have to live with the consequences of those decisions. God gave Jim Bob and Michelle all those children to raise. He did NOT give Jennifer to Jana or Jill to raise, but that is what is happening. This isn't God's plan; but Jim Bob's plan!

Just think about it: Jana had to go to Indonesia to get a rest from taking care of a family of 21! Little 20 year old Jana has spent all her life raising someone elses children! Bless her heart.

msrylee said...

love the duggars 1016h. Well-said!!